Arlong Park Forums

It's one thing to say that Hancock may not join even if she's about to return to the story and has a flashback to be told. We've seen non-SH characters with flashbacks, like Wiper, Kyros and Law, after all.

It's another to believe that Oda won't show Fisher Tiger's greatest achievement, and from the emotional perspective of the slaves he was freeing, no less.

As for me, I will double the bet by saying that Hancock's flashback will also cover Fisher Tiger's and Koala's time as a slave, as their three stories intertwine in captivity.

I feel like, if we don't see it told through Hancock's perspective before the war, it is something we could still see all the way up to the point where the Straw Hats actually arrive in Marijoa.

black-leg jex

Can someone enlighten me, what do we think hasn't been shown about Fisher Tiger saving the slaves? I don't quite get what there is to see from it still.

theackwardstation

It's another to believe that Oda won't show Fisher Tiger's greatest achievement, and from the emotional perspective of the slaves he was freeing, no less.

Oh, I definitely think it won't be shown, and not because of Hancock. I think Oda is satisfied with how he handled it already.

If it's shown, then good, I will be happy.

Deicide

@black-leg:

Can someone enlighten me, what do we think hasn't been shown about Fisher Tiger saving the slaves? I don't quite get what there is to see from it still.

"We've been told what a Buster Call is, it's just ten marine battleships bombarding an island. What do we think hasn't been shown about Ohara being destroyed by one? I don't quite get what there is to see from it still."

We didn't know about Saulo, Clover, Olvia, Spandine, CP9's involvement, Sakazuki's role or what Kuzan did in it until we got the flashback.

Same thing with the Fisher Tiger event. It will add a lot of story and it will matter to whatever arc features it.

StrawHatJedi

To that end, there have been some pretty significant events Oda has told us about rather than shown us; The Battle between Sakazuki and Kuzan on Punk Hazard, the Grudge War between the Whitebeard Pirates and the Blackbeard Pirates, the Rocky Port Incident.

It's possible this is stuff we could see, but it's also possible Oda doesn't show them.

We could still see more about Tiger and the slaves. I dunno if it's guaranteed though given some of the other big things Oda has skipped. I do like the idea of tying it back to Jimbei, Nami, and Arlong in Marijoa though.

Deicide

@Vongola_Boss_XI:

To that end, there have been some pretty significant events Oda has told us about rather than shown us; The Battle between Sakazuki and Kuzan on Punk Hazard, the Grudge War between the Whitebeard Pirates and the Blackbeard Pirates, the Rocky Port Incident.

It's possible this is stuff we could see, but it's also possible Oda doesn't show them.

We could still see more about Tiger and the slaves. I dunno if it's guaranteed though given some of the other big things Oda has skipped. I do like the idea of tying it back to Jimbei, Nami, and Arlong in Marijoa though.

Any of those events can be expanded still. But the difference between all of those and Fisher Tiger's is that we had an actual Tiger flashback that strangely skipped the incident in its entirety, Oda could have dedicated a third of a chapter or even less to show some images. Instead, it was completely skipped.

And this event is not some random occurrance in Tiger's story. It was his defining moment, the thing that elevated him as a hero. I remember back in the day, the disappointment of the forums about that being just skipped. It's like showing all of Coby's journey but skipping the Rocky Port incident. Or the entire plot between Akainu and Aokiji but not their fight. Or as if Oden's adventures with Whitebeard and Roger were skipped because we knew he had travelled with them anyway.

By leaving that scene out of Tiger's story, Oda made a decision to hide something from us. And what is hidden on purpose is most likely being revealed at some point, when it tier into the main story again.

The slavery plot was picked up again in the Reverie. And again with the God Valley incident. And a third time with Hancock potentially being captured. I'm pretty sure Tiger's actions back then will again become important.

Shift

Look, I wanna know how Jinbe got that scar over his eye, but at this point I'm not expecting a whole 'nother flashback about it.

Deicide

Look, I wanna know how Jinbe got that scar over his eye, but at this point I'm not expecting a whole 'nother flashback about it.

Is that scar related to an event hyped before Jinbe's story was disclosed? That's the difference.

Fisher Tiger's rampage on Mary Geoise isn't just a random event in his life. It's something that defines him as a character. It was the first thing we learned about him, and the thing that formed the Pirates of the Sun and changed many other characters' stories. And yet it was ommited when we were learning about TIger's journey. It can't be compared with a random scar.

tolazy

It's one thing to say that Hancock may not join even if she's about to return to the story and has a flashback to be told. We've seen non-SH characters with flashbacks, like Wiper, Kyros and Law, after all.

It's another to believe that Oda won't show Fisher Tiger's greatest achievement, and from the emotional perspective of the slaves he was freeing, no less.

As for me, I will double the bet by saying that Hancock's flashback will also cover Fisher Tiger's and Koala's time as a slave, as their three stories intertwine in captivity.

After meeting Koala again back in Dress Rosa I believe we will see the liberation of the slaves by Fisher Tiger in a flashback of Koala once we meet the revolutionary. Koala meeting Jinbei again, who sailed together with her under Fisher Tiger could possibly trigger this flashback. Let us not forget, that Tiger not only freed Koala, he and his crew also taught her again what it means to not be a slave and brought her back to her family. What the sun pirates did for Koala had a great impact on her (or I'm confusing something right now) and lead to her joining the revolutionary.

Aside from that, I simply can't and never have been able to see Hancock as a potential SH.
And on a more personal note the whole love illness gag ruined her to some degree for me. I was so happy as Hancock was introduced and she was this strong, fearless (at least superficial, because… tragic backstory and her constant fear that somebody will figure out her shameful past as a slave) fighter that I liked her a lot. But her falling in love with Luffy and doing practical everything just to please him… it makes me cringe just by thinking about it. Having to see it until the EoS will probably just make it worse for me. But that is just my very personal opinion and as long as Hancock doesn't interact with Luffy its okay for me. I'm still able to appreciate her as a strong fighter, but... well, like I already said: her character is to some degree ruined for me.

crlsdc

Look, I wanna know how Jinbe got that scar over his eye, but at this point I'm not expecting a whole 'nother flashback about it.

And I wanna know who managed to arrest him before Paramount war

Deicide

@crlsdc:

And I wanna know who managed to arrest him before Paramount war

I believe he turned himself in?

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@tolazy:

And on a more personal note the whole love illness gag ruined her to some degree for me. I was so happy as Hancock was introduced and she was this strong, fearless (at least superficial, because… tragic backstory and her constant fear that somebody will figure out her shameful past as a slave) fighter that I liked her a lot. But her falling in love with Luffy and doing practical everything just to please him… it makes me cringe just by thinking about it. Having to see it until the EoS will probably just make it worse for me. But that is just my very personal opinion and as long as Hancock doesn't interact with Luffy its okay for me. I'm still able to appreciate her as a strong fighter, but... well, like I already said: her character is to some degree ruined for me.

I'm not particularly fond of Hancock's "schoolgirl" antics near Luffy, thought I did enjoy her showing her love in a more mature way post-timeskip, in which she was portrayed as an overzealous wife rather than a lovestruck schoolgirl.

I also think people take all the anime filler that exagerates and repeats Hancock's antics too much as how she'd be portrayed by Oda. At this point, we've seen more filler featuring her than her actual canon appearances.

I like to point out that a Hancock that interacts with the whole crew and not just Luffy would be super interesting to follow. We have her interactions with Nyon, Jinbe, Rayleigh, Magellan and Hannyabal as proof that she can be a very funny character to have around. She is at heart a silly and selfish character, and that makes her a good Straw Hat candidate.

Shift

Is that scar related to an event hyped before Jinbe's story was disclosed? That's the difference.

Fisher Tiger's rampage on Mary Geoise isn't just a random event in his life. It's something that defines him as a character. It was the first thing we learned about him, and the thing that formed the Pirates of the Sun and changed many other characters' stories. And yet it was ommited when we were learning about TIger's journey. It can't be compared with a random scar.

My point is, there's stuff we all want to see more of, but there's not a lot that we absolutely have to see or else we'll be missing out. We got FT's story, we got Hancock's story, and whatever else may be shown about the place they were enslaved will not change what we know about them as people.

I feel like Hancock's ship has sailed. Same as Vivi, same as Smoker. And when the crew leaves Wano without Carrot, her ship, too, will have sailed.

black-leg jex

"We've been told what a Buster Call is, it's just ten marine battleships bombarding an island. What do we think hasn't been shown about Ohara being destroyed by one? I don't quite get what there is to see from it still."

We didn't know about Saulo, Clover, Olvia, Spandine, CP9's involvement, Sakazuki's role or what Kuzan did in it until we got the flashback.

Same thing with the Fisher Tiger event. It will add a lot of story and it will matter to whatever arc features it.

This isn't the same thing though. Before the Robin flashback all we knew was:

What a buster call is
That it destroyed Robin's Island
That she survived
And maybe the Aokiji was involved somehow

We didn't know why the buster call happened or how Robin escaped. We also didn't know why she was so invested in the poneglyphs either. Her flashback answers all of these things and adds some neat extras like the Aokiji stuff and Olivia stuff.

With Hancock and Fisher Tiger we know the why's and hows already.

Hancock was captured as a child and sold as a slave along with her sisters
They mistreated her and it was scarring
She only escaped because Fisher Tiger rescued her along with other slaves
Fisher Tiger did this because he was a slave as well and couldn't leave his fellow slaves behind

Anything outside of what we already know would just be an extra, like the Akainu thing in Robins.

The only way we are seeing Fisher Tiger's attack on Mariejou again is if it is from Im or a new character's percpective who also happened to be there.

We won't see it from Hancock or Fisher Tiger's percpective because there is nothing new to be gained from it.

Deicide

My point is, there's stuff we all want to see more of, but there's not a lot that we absolutely have to see or else we'll be missing out. We got FT's story, we got Hancock's story, and whatever else may be shown about the place they were enslaved will not change what we know about them as people.

I feel like Hancock's ship has sailed. Same as Vivi, same as Smoker. And when the crew leaves Wano without Carrot, her ship, too, will have sailed.

The difference is that Hancock didn't have a story arc and a conclusion. She's an unique character in the sense that she, unlike most others, was never saved by or indebted to Luffy, nor had her goodbye/exit with a feel of a fulfilled arc.

Instead, it's Luffy who is tremendously indebted to her, and the stories seeded back then were all spelling a tragedy yet to happen in her future. That, plus her being a Shichibukai and thus a very important recurring character, practically screams a proper arc being reserved for the future.

Ten years ago, we learned that should she lose her title, she and the whole island would be in deep trouble. I predicted back then that it would happen, and, well, it's happening right now. She will be in trouble, and Luffy will go to her rescue without batting an eye in hesitation, because that's the kind of man he is. Hancock's arc wasn't resolved in the past, it's about to finally happen in the near future.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@black-leg:

With Hancock and Fisher Tiger we know the why's and hows already.

Hancock was captured as a child and sold as a slave along with her sisters

They mistreated her and it was scarring

She only escaped because Fisher Tiger rescued her along with other slaves

Fisher Tiger did this because he was a slave as well and couldn't leave his fellow slaves behind

We don't know about Hancock's past before slavery. All we know is that she wanted to join the pirate crew in a young age. Why? Could she have a dream related to it?
How was she able to get on the ship? We know only the strongest warriors were allowed that. Even if Hancock was strong enough as a 12 years-old, how come 11-year Sonia and 9-year Mary were allowed as well? Was Hancock and her sisters really allowed in the ship or did they sneak in, only to be found out by the Kuja later?
How the hell were they captured without anyone noticing if they were supposed to be strong? Who captured her? (The anime indicates it was done by fishmen, three of them. Could it have been done my Macro's gang?)
Who was their owner? COuld their story be linked to Mjosgard's?
Why were they fed their fruits? We know it was for "entertainment purposes", but that makes little sense, unless… Were they just slaves or were they pitted in some kind of gladiatorial fights?
Have they met FIsher Tiger and/or Koala in captivity? Could they have helped Fisher Tiger escape his own captivity?
What happens to them between the Mary Geoise raid and them meeting Rayleigh/Nyon/Shaki in Sabaody?

There's a whole lot of potential for flashback exploring such gaps. Just like Robin flashback wasn't just about a buster call in her island. We only met Saulo, Olvia, Clover and Spandine thanks to it.

Berry Rich

Believe me, I get how easy it is to write off his death. The chapter it happened, "Pell-dro" was the first phrase out of my mouth. Pedro was a well-crafted and important character, but his story reached its natural conclusion. He was shown to have lost the majority of his lifespan, and used what little remained to save the people he knew could save the world. And in that process, he passed on his will to Carrot and began her transformation into the active character she's destined to become.

A Mink definitely should make it to Laugh Tale. It very easily could have been Pedro, but Pedro passed that mission onto Carrot.

Passed on his Will? I don't agree. Just because she saw him die does not mean to pass his Will. More emphasis on their past would feel better for that transition. Or eating a DF like how Sabo ate the Flame Fruit and inherited Ace's Will.

Carrot has multiple mentors and seems closer to Wanda than anyone else. Hence if Wills are being passed it makes more sense it came from Wanda.

Pedro waited how many years to ride with the ones who would bring the Dawn of the World? Then he finally rides with who he believes will bring the Dawn. Helps them rescue their crewmate and get Poneglyph copies. "Dies" for their sake right after telling Carrot she will see why they are important. Carrot has yet to show if she learned anything about the Dawn because it is not her Dream. Dreams are something you think about all the time in this series. It defines the characters. Carrot's Dream would not be that serious.

Carrot did what she said she wanted to do, to see a Wonderland. Whole Cake Island. She had her moment when she turned into her Moon Lion form. Nothing is set for her now. Why isn't that her conclusion? Her presence is miniscule compared to Whole Cake Island.

SeaOfHope

The only way I see Hancock's time as a slave and her subsequent liberation being shown in a flashback is if she actually gets captured and to be very honest, I would hate that development. Mainly since Hancock has always been perceived by the community as one of the weaker Warlords which I simply don't buy. She even boasts about her strength prior to the Marines attack, I want that statement validated considering how little we have actually seen her in action (canon-wise).

Deicide

The only way I see Hancock's time as a slave and her subsequent liberation being shown in a flashback is if she actually gets captured and to be very honest, I would hate that development. Mainly since Hancock has always been perceived by the community as one of the weaker Warlords which I simply don't buy. She even boasts about her strength prior to the Marines attack, I want that statement validated considering how little we have actually seen her in action (canon-wise).

For her to resist that attack would mean the marine offensive was better off never existing. The WG losing that battle makes the WG weak, and it would make no sense considering we were warned multiple times pre-timeskip that such an event would be disastrous for the Kuja.

I see the other way around: Hancock is not going to lose because she's weak, but because she has her people to defend. Unlike Buggy, Mihawk or Weevil, evasion is not an option for her. She can't pack her things and escape. She will most likely surrender for her people's sake after the WG threatens the total annihilation of the island. The losses on the marine side will also probably be emphasized as very heavy.

Hancock will finally show her full power after all that, when she's either rescued or escapes captivity on her own. She could very well do a rampage like Tiger's in Mary Geoise.

Monquito

At least one of the Shichibukai must get caught to not make the Marines look tremendously useless as usual. And if I had to bet.

Kuma is not even neccesary to catch.
Mihawk must get wrecked by Shillew
Buggy, Oda's favorite..
Weevil, yet to play an actual role
Hancock, oh booyy!!

Yup, I know who is going down..

Deicide

At least one of the Shichibukai must get caught to not make the Marines look tremendously useless as usual. And if I had to bet.

Kuma is not even neccesary to catch.
Mihawk must get wrecked by Shillew
Buggy, Oda's favorite..
Weevil, yet to play an actual role
Hancock, oh booyy!!

Yup, I know who is going down..

Yep.

My guess when we get updated on their status:

Mihawk destroyed half the fleet that was after him and got away.
Most of Buggy's Delivery were caught, but Buggy himself and his inner circle escaped in the chaos.
Weevil destroyed most of the forces after him, but was almost caught… Then the Blackbeard pirates arrived and crushed the marines entirely (yes, I'm betting on Teach recruiting Bakkin and Weevil).
Amazon Lily is a wreck. The marines had heavy losses but eventually Buster Called the island. Hancock bought time until her people took some marine ships and escaped, but ends up captured.

Then on the following update, we find out she was sent to Impel Down, and what happens to every prisoner there on arrival? It's stripped naked and bathed on boiling water. It's then that her secret is out and she's sent to Mary Geoise.

Shiebs

At least one of the Shichibukai must get caught to not make the Marines look tremendously useless as usual. And if I had to bet.

Kuma is not even neccesary to catch.
Mihawk must get wrecked by Shillew
Buggy, Oda's favorite..
Weevil, yet to play an actual role
Hancock, oh booyy!!

Yup, I know who is going down..

I want to know what Crocodile and Moria’s role in the story will be

Monquito

Kinda forcing another parallel here…

That was jokingly written, but still. It does seems like we're closing her story arc with Perospero around. And the fact that she's not interacting with Luffy at all.

Deicide

@Shiebs:

I want to know what Crocodile and Moria’s role in the story will be

Moria: will appear in this arc and help defeat Kaido. IMO, Chapter 925 exists mostly to set that possibility up. There was a theory that he'd take the shadows of the nine scabbards and insert them in Luffy, and I love that possibility.

Crocodile: I feel we will meet him again in the next saga, and his doing some shady underworld things. I guess the crew will need something he has to offer? Maybe we can even see he and Vivi interact? Also, I think he's the one to explain awakened Devil Fruits to Luffy… Considering Croc claimed to have mastered his fruit back in Alabasta, and was later the character to introduce the concept of awakened zoans in Impel Down, maybe he's the perfect character to explain how awakening a DF works and what it means.

SeaOfHope

That was jokingly written, but still. It does seems like we're closing her story arc with Perospero around. And the fact that she's not interacting with Luffy at all.

And pray tell what you think her story arc is.

Robby

And what is hidden on purpose is most likely being revealed at some point, when it tier into the main story again.

It was hiding the fact that Tiger himself was a slave. Which was then revealed shortly after.

Monquito

And pray tell what you think her story arc is.

I wouldn't know if she helping Sanji take down Peros, or she'll do an actual Rebecca and just be protected.

But after that fight, she'll come to the realization that the sea is a pretty dangerous place where you actually die if you're not strong enough.
So she'll stay with Inuarashi and do a 'I'll become a stronger' promise.

Closing her story arc, and leaving her on stand by for when global war hits.

SeaOfHope

I wouldn't know if she helping Sanji take down Peros, or she'll do an actual Rebecca and just be protected.

But after that fight, she'll come to the realization that the sea is a pretty dangerous place where you actually die if you're not strong enough.
So she'll stay with Inuarashi and do a 'I'll become a stronger' promise.

Closing her story arc, and leaving her on stand by for when global war hits.

I'm glad you're not Oda lol

Monquito

Her Wano treatment its been much worse than that.

SeaOfHope

Her Wano treatment its been much worse than that.

Eh, Wano wasn't over last time I checked.

Monquito

Eh, Wano wasn't over last time I checked.

Never said the opposite(?)

SeaOfHope

Never said the opposite(?)

That statement would be correct if you concluded with "so far."

Monquito

That statement would be correct if you concluded with "so far."

What do you understand by 'its been'?

Zhenja

Is it that time again? :ninja:

Shift

The difference is that Hancock didn't have a story arc and a conclusion. She's an unique character in the sense that she, unlike most others, was never saved by or indebted to Luffy, nor had her goodbye/exit with a feel of a fulfilled arc.

Instead, it's Luffy who is tremendously indebted to her, and the stories seeded back then were all spelling a tragedy yet to happen in her future. That, plus her being a Shichibukai and thus a very important recurring character, practically screams a proper arc being reserved for the future.

I still don't see what part of that is setting her up to be a Straw Hat. Luffy is grateful to a lot of people, but that doesn't equal future crewmate to me.

Ten years ago, we learned that should she lose her title, she and the whole island would be in deep trouble. I predicted back then that it would happen, and, well, it's happening right now. She will be in trouble, and Luffy will go to her rescue without batting an eye in hesitation, because that's the kind of man he is. Hancock's arc wasn't resolved in the past, it's about to finally happen in the near future.

Losing her title as a result of the Reverie, long after Luffy sailed away from there, is a bit of a different situation than losing her title right after the war so she can jump aboard his ship.

@Berry:

Passed on his Will? I don't agree. Just because she saw him die does not mean to pass his Will. More emphasis on their past would feel better for that transition. Or eating a DF like how Sabo ate the Flame Fruit and inherited Ace's Will.

Save the Straw Hats, save the world.

Carrot has multiple mentors and seems closer to Wanda than anyone else. Hence if Wills are being passed it makes more sense it came from Wanda.Zoro had Kuina and her father. Chopper had Hiruluk, Kureha and Dalton. Nami had Bellmere, Hanzo and Nojiko. Way more than one important figure apiece.

Pedro waited how many years to ride with the ones who would bring the Dawn of the World? Then he finally rides with who he believes will bring the Dawn. Helps them rescue their crewmate and get Poneglyph copies. "Dies" for their sake right after telling Carrot she will see why they are important. Carrot has yet to show if she learned anything about the Dawn because it is not her Dream. Dreams are something you think about all the time in this series. It defines the characters. Carrot's Dream would not be that serious.

The will that mentors pass on and the dreams of the crewmates are not necessarily the same. Nami didn't get her love of maps from Bellemere, and Sanji wanted to see the All Blue before he ever met Zeff. The will they received is, among other things, to keep moving forward, to keep living and fighting and dreaming of a better future. Pedro told Carrot that the key to the future dawn lay with the Straw Hats, and there's still time for her to express what impact those words had on her.

Carrot did what she said she wanted to do, to see a Wonderland. Whole Cake Island. She had her moment when she turned into her Moon Lion form. Nothing is set for her now. Why isn't that her conclusion? Her presence is miniscule compared to Whole Cake Island.

She hasn't even gone Sulong in this battle, how is that not something set for her? She didn't up and vanish because Oda was tired of her. She's about to do something big, and Pedro doesn't have to rise from the dead to make the dawn he wanted a reality.

SeaOfHope

What do you understand by 'its been'?

Yeah, which was why I said its not over yet.

Monquito

Pretty sure an 'its been' equals to an 'up to this point', or the likes of it, and since nowhere in my post I'm indicating, nor slightly implying Wano was over, I'm feeling the vibe that you'd just keep being passive-aggresive against me for whatever reason.

So I'll just leave it.

Deicide

It was hiding the fact that Tiger himself was a slave. Which was then revealed shortly after.

Not really. Between escaping captivity and saving the slaves, he had returned to FIshman Island, and even warned the king about what he was about to do. His rampage could be shown without any hint of him being a slave.

I still don't see what part of that is setting her up to be a Straw Hat. Luffy is grateful to a lot of people, but that doesn't equal future crewmate to me.

Losing her title as a result of the Reverie, long after Luffy sailed away from there, is a bit of a different situation than losing her title right after the war so she can jump aboard his ship.

Once everyone learns she's "less than human" and she has a target on her head with a huge bounty, where does she go to keep herself and her people safe?

Also, her losing her title after Luffy has already left will only make it clear how much Luffy is indebted to her. This is the guy willing to go back to East Blue to help Zeff and the Baratie during Whole Cake Island. Once Luffy learns what happened to Hancock, he won't pull any stops to help her.

So, what does Hancock has in her favor:

A possible flashback to be explored
Luffy hugely indebted to her
Both drama and comedy. Is an idiot just like most crewmembers.
Her oldest concepts go all the way back in the story
Foreshadowing in the form of Nami dressing as her, just like she dressed as Robin. In freaking chapter 97!
Her debut chapter had a very suspicious color spread of the debut appearances of each SH, plus the message "A casual discovery"
Is a fan-favorite character despite being missing from the story for over 10 years
Right power level for a late crewmember
An arc focusing on her is about to happen.

Even if she's not joining, she's going to be really important ahead.

MiyamotoMusashi

The only way I see Hancock's time as a slave and her subsequent liberation being shown in a flashback is if she actually gets captured and to be very honest, I would hate that development. Mainly since Hancock has always been perceived by the community as one of the weaker Warlords which I simply don't buy. She even boasts about her strength prior to the Marines attack, I want that statement validated considering how little we have actually seen her in action (canon-wise).

It´s not so much "perceived to be weak or weaker Warlord" as people know how Oda writes his female characters, and almost 100% of the time, unless they are not deformed one way or the other, their combat prowess is irrelevant unfortunately. The story definitely treats her as strong, we have Sengoku confirming that among others, but whether it´s credible and will ever play a role, doubtful.

Robby

Not really. Between escaping captivity and saving the slaves, he had returned to FIshman Island, and even warned the king about what he was about to do. His rampage could be shown without any hint of him being a slave.

Nope, he freed the Marijoa slaves while breaking out himself. It gets confusing because with that flashback Oda jumped around a little in order to get end chapter cliffhangers and drama shots, and had flashbacks within flashbacks, but he did not make two trips.

Chapter 621 had him return from "A long trip" that ended with him having freed the slaves and beat up the celestial dragons, and change the slave marks to the sun brands.

Then 622 starts with the framing still of "he beat the celestial dragons" and then transitions to grey panels and grey boxes, where he declares that being a slave is hell and that he's seen how evil humans are… and because of the framing it CAN be interpreted that was before him going on the marijoa raid and that he made two trips... I remember there was a lot of discussion about that at the time... but that's not the case.

In context the following pages show that he then sailed around the seas beating up humans and destroying ships and freeing slaves for three yearsin an extended campaign. THAT'S what he was declaring to the king about that made Otohime cry, since Tiger's actions made it impossible for her to get he paper signed and try to make peace. People rallied around Tiger and his rage, and not her cries for peace.

The legend is that he scaled the cliffs to free the slaves, but that's mostly just to hide that he was already there, it was assumed. We never see him climb because he didn't actually do it, that was his secret. No one on Fishman Island knew he had been a slave, he revealed that in chapter 623, ON HIS DEATHBED. (Which then flashes back to that same conversation with the king.) He spent years on Marijoa. And begged his crew not to let anyone know he'd been a slave.

Then in 624 Jinbe tells the king and queen the truth, and it goes back to that same scene again and Otohime goes "Oh, that's why he was in so much pain." Tiger wasn't telling the king "I'm going to go clib the redline and rampage on some nobles", if he had others would have gone with him. He told the king "I'm going to spend my life destroying humans and freeing other slaves."

That was the reveal, that was the secret, that was why Oda didn't show it at the time. Not because he's saving it for over a decade later, but because it never actually happened the way the people thought.

Fisher Tiger was a myth, a legend, a bigger hero than he actually was. And he was also on the wrong path. That legend led to Hody Jones and taught the wrong lessons and the following chapters were all about not living for hatred and revenge and TIger's life having been wrong, a lesson Arlong and Hody refused to take.

Deicide

Nope, he freed the Marijoa slaves while breaking out himself. It gets confusing because with that flashback Oda jumped around a little in order to get end chapter cliffhangers and drama shots, and had flashbacks within flashbacks, but he did not make two trips.

Chapter 621 had him return from having freed the slaves and beat up the celestial dragons, and change the slave marks to the sun brands.

Then 622 starts with the framing still of "he beat the celestial dragons" and then transitions to grey panels and grey boxes, where he declares that being a slave is hell and that he's seen how evil humans are… and because of the framing it CAN be interpreted that was before him going on the marijoa raid and that he made two trips... but that's not the case.

In context the following pages show that he then sailed around the seas beating up humans and destroying ships and freeing slaves for three yearsin an extended campaign. THAT'S what he was declaring to the king about that made Otohime cry, since Tiger's actions made it impossible for her to get he paper signed and try to make peace. People rallied around Tiger and his rage, and not her cries for peace.

The legend is that he scaled the cliffs to free the slaves, but that's mostly just to hide that he was already there, it was assumed. We never see him climb because he didn't actually do it, that was his secret. No one on Fishman Island knew he had been a slave, he revealed that in chapter 623, ON HIS DEATHBED. (Which then flashes back to that same conversation with the king.) He spent years on Marijoa. And begged his crew not to let anyone know he'd been a slave.

That was the secret, that was why Oda didn't show it at the time. Because it never actually happened.

THough in 6624 Jinbe dells the king and queen the truth, and Otohime goes "Oh, that's why he was in so much pain."

That's not how I see it.

In chapter 621, you see Tiger returning and being welcomed by Arlong and Jinbe. At that point, everyone is casual and has no idea about freeing slaves. Tiger also mentions to have some business to deal with in the palace. Then the flashback stops to tell their history together in the Fishman District. When the flashback resumes, we are suddenly struck by Tiger already freed the slaves and Arlong and Jinbe are not together anymore, but both declaring they'll protect Tiger.

Until then, your interpretation can be correct, but then we go to Chapter 622.

In the opening of it, Fishman Island just heard about Tiger's feat. King Neptune also just learned of it. THEN we get a flashback-within-a-flashback to Tiger and Otohime remembering their conversation with Tiger before that.

So, either:

Tiger returned, asked for help to free the slaves and was denied, then went back to Mary Geoise to do it himself.
Or
Tiger freed the slaves, returned to FIshman Island, but his feat was only known days later.

To me, his discussion with Neptune, asking for help to free slaves, indicates the first option is the correct one. It doesn't make sense for Tiger to ask Neptune to join the Pirates of the Sun (who weren't even formed). Also, if Tiger had freed the slaves already, wouldn't he had returned to Fishman Island with the other fishmen/mermaid slaves, instead of alone? Not to mention there's zero reason for us to see Neptune reacting to the news if Tiger had already warned him of it days before. Otohime also says that there was no way of stopping Tiger "that day". How could she even think that if Tiger already had done it already?

But even if your interpretation is correct, it still does not explain why not show Tiger's rampage at least partially. Oda just needed to ommit the beginning of his attack, while showing him crashing through Mary Geoise freeing slaves. Instead, it was completely ommited, and that makes no sense unless it's going to be addressed later, in a deeper, expanded way.

Robby

Tiger freed the slaves, returned to FIshman Island, but his feat was only known days later.

That's exactly what happened. He returned, everyone went "hey you've been gone for a few years!" and he downplayed it. HE wasn't about to say "Uh yeah, I've been a slave and I just pulled off a massive prison break… please don't look at my tattoo." Exact same reason Hancock never talked about what happened to her.

But, because what he did was so huge, news spread and caught up to him. So, he had to go talk to the king. And... he did not tell the king the truth, but did say he'd seen personally that being a slave was awful... without mentioning that he'd been a slave himself. He said "I've seen evil and I can't let it stand." And then started a three year campa

Jinbe told them years later.

Tiger returned, asked for help to free the slaves and was denied, then went back to Mary Geoise to do it himself.

You seem to be taking for granted that Tiger, who was a slave on Marijoa for years, had to escape in the first place.

What flows more naturally?

He was a slave who broke out and caused a rucus while he escaped couldn't let any other slaves remain captive, but the legend twisted the truth?
or
He was a slave who broke out, in complete secret and without any explanation or elaboration given to how he did it, escaped while leaving all the other slaves there to rot, , then later came back and caused a rucus to escape a second time?

Everyone ASSUMED "he saw slavery happening, so took it upon himself to climb the red line" and that makes him a bigger deal, a bigger legend, but he never claims that himself, its the detail others make up that he runs with to hide the truth.

But even if your interpretation is correct, it still does not explain why not show Tiger's rampage at least partially. .

We saw a panel of it in Hancock's flashback, that along with the description was literally all that was needed. There was a big fire and a fishan went around opening cages and breaking chains. No reason to spend tons of pages on it.

And again, the surprise reveal on his DEATHBED was that he'd been a slave. We didn't know that or have context for it at at the time.

We've had a decade for that to settle in and mentally insert it into the backstory, but at the time it was a reveal and a surprise and a twist on something we had "known" for about three years at that point. Showing any of it in detail would have kind of given it away with the handcuffs and prisoner outfit and whatnot..

It was a scene of Tiger confessing explicitly "I'm not what you think I was, I didn't actually do what you think, I'm just an ordinary guy, please don't tell anyone." Even his closest allies hadn't known and they'd been rampaging with him for years at that point. That reveal combined with his death is what broke Arlong.

That was why that reveal was accompanied by him flashing back to his meeting with the king, and then the very next chapter flashed back to that same scene again for a third time when the king learned the truth from Jinbe. It was a misdirection the first time, then given new context twice in the next three chapters.

Oda left it out because it was a fake story, and he revealed it was fake story two chapters laters. Not because Oda planned to save it for ten years and do an elaborate flashback later.

Deicide

We saw a panel of it in Hancock's flashback, that along with the description was literally all that was needed. No reason to spend tons of pages on it.

And again, the surprise reveal on his DEATHBED was that he'd been a slave. We didn't know that or have context for it at at the time. We've had a decade for that to settle in and mentally insert it into the backstory, but at the time it was a reveal and a surprise.
It was Tiger confessing explicitly "I'm not what you think I was, please don't tell anyone." Even his closest allies hadn't known.

That was why that reveal was accompanied by him flashing back to his meeting with the king, and then the very next chapter flashed back to that same scene again for a third time when the king learned the truth. It was a misdirection the first time, then given proper context just a couple chapters later.

The flashback containing Tiger's feat will still happen, but it will be from the perspective that matters most: a slave's. You can bet on it.

Remember this talk in ~2 years.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

That's exactly what happened. He returned, everyone went "hey you've been gone for a few years!" and he downplayed it. But, because what he did was so huge, news spread and caught up to him. So, he had to go talk to the king. And… he did not tell the king the truth. But he said "I've seen evil and I can't let it stand.

No, Tiger returned alone. It makes no sense for Fishman Island to only find it out days later since the freed slaves would be returning with him.

Plus, it makes no sense for:

Tiger to ask Neptune's help to free the slaves if it was already done
Neptune to find out about what Tiger did days later if Tiger had already told him bout it.
Otohime to say that they couldn't stopped him that day (he visited) if it was already done by then.

Tiger returned home and asked for the King's help. When he was denied, he went back to free the slaves by himself.

Robby

I have the volume right in front of me. The mini flashback within a flashback is MEANT to be deceptive when you first see it in 622. You're SUPPOSED to take it as setting up for his famous raid. Because that's the legend, thats what Hancock told us, that's what the people are talking about, that's what we're supposed to think.

And then two chapters later, the ACTUAL context is given to it on his deathbed. It's a reveal, its a surprise, its a twist on what you knew. That's why it flashes back to that scene again for a second time. So you hit it with new understanding. And again the next chapter when Jinbei tells the king the truth.

You THINK he's talking about raiding Marijoa because the setup, that's the trick Oda plays. But he's actually talking about how he's going to form the sun pirates and attack ships and… free slaves. Which he and the sun pirates then do over the rest of the chapter. And for years. (Which in turn makes the humans hate them more)

I know its hard because now we know the truth and we mentally incorporate that into the flashback, but go back and try to look at it fresh without that knowledge, and see the order the information was actually given to us.

Oda pulled the same trick a few years later with Rebecca's three flashbacks, which he told backwards, and with Kyros removed the first time around. But then added the extra context in later to give you a new understanding of what you'd already seen.

Deicide

And then two chapters later, the ACTUAL context is given to it on his deathbed. It's a reveal, its a surprise, its a twist on what you knew. That's why it flashes back to that scene again for a second time. So you hit it with new understanding. And again the next chapter when Jinbei tells the king the truth.

The later reveal only provides context to Tiger's fury that day, and why he decided to raid Mary Geoise by himself.

Tiger had only escaped at the point he went to talk to Neptune. The later reveal does not change that.

Days later, Neptune reacts to Tiger's deed. It makes no sense for him to only learn it later if Tiger had told him already.
Days later, Otohime says they couldn't stop Tiger that day. The comment only makes sense if Tiger hadn't done his deed already.

When Tiger reveals he was a slave, it explains his rage, his drive to return and save the others. At no point in the story it's said that he freed the slaves as he himself escaped. The actual events show otherwise, with it happening after he visited Neptune.

This is completely different from Rebecca's story, in which her very memory (and everyone else's) was changed with the disappearance of Kyros.

theackwardstation

I agree with Deicide that Fisher Tiger came back to free the slaves. It is confusing, but that's the way that makes sense once you read this page:

!

"You want to free the slaves?", says Neptune. There's no way this question makes sense if Fisher Tiger had already released the slaves when he freed himself and escaped Mary Geoise.

And Fisher Tiger's demeanor and speech in that scene was that of a man who was personally disturbed and who had gone through some sort trauma (later we discovered that Tiger was a slave before).

Otohime says in the next page that "even I could not stop him that day", meaning that Fisher Tiger climbed the Red Line that day. Meeting the royals at the morning and releasing slaves by the end of the day.

Obviously, the fact that Fisher Tiger was slave was a plot twist nonetheless when it was revealed. Nobody knew. Not the readers, not the characters.

Deicide

@theackwardstation:

I agree with Deicide that Fisher Tiger came back to free the slaves. It is confusing, but that's the way that makes sense once you read this page:

! [qimg]https://s2.mangabeast01.com/manga/One-Piece/0622-004.png[/qimg]

"You want to free the slaves?", says Neptune. There's no way this question makes sense if Fisher Tiger had already released the slaves when he freed himself and escaped Mary Geoise.

And Fisher Tiger's demeanor and speech in that scene was that of a man who was personally disturbed and who had gone through some sort trauma (later we discovered that Tiger was a slave before).

Otohime says in the next page that "even I could not stop him that day", meaning that Fisher Tiger climbed the Red Line that day. Meeting the royals at the morning and releasing slaves by the end of the day.

Obviously, the fact that Fisher Tiger was slave was a plot twist nonetheless when it was revealed. Nobody knew. Not the readers, not the characters.

Yep, thanks for providing an image. I didn't have access to one in english.

What I feel we will yet see from a future flashback:

Hancock had a dream as a child. It has something to do with the Kuja's origins and the void century, and it required her to become a pirate. Her sisters shared the dream and saw her as a model to follow. The only ship in the island is the Kuja Pirate's, so they needed to get strong to be allowed in it (Chapter Zero).
Eventually, an 11-year-old Hancock becomes strong enough to be a warrior (anime filler information, but it's so specific that may come from Oda's notes). But she's like Marguerite, a kuja warrior, not a pirate yet. She tries to get on the ship but is denied, so sdhe sneaks onboard. Her sisters sneak in after her. (Speculation: we know Hancock was captured as 12-year-old, too young. Even if she was strong enough to be a pirate at that age, how do you explain 11-year Sonia and only 9-year-old Mary being allowed as well?)
The Kuja find the sisters, but the ship is already far and they decide to not return to the Amazon Lily.
Hancock, Sonia and Mary are captured by Macro's gang (again, anime filler: we saw three underwater shadows approaching the ship. The manga confirms that the Kuja didn't notice anything strange until the girls were missing, thought. Plus, Tiger's flashback reveals Macro and his gang were already slave traders before joining the Sun Pirates).
Auction and so on. Four years of slavery. Hancock's owner may have been Mjosgard before his redemption. Otherwise, it may have been Roswald (Charlos was too young at the time). I think we will see Koala somehow.
Because Hancock and her sisters are unruly and strong, they may have been sent to fight in gladiatorial matches against other slaves. We know they got their DFs "for entertainment", so I guess some sort of mortal games.
Hancock becomes strong in these matches. Her purpose is to keep her sisters safe. She blames herself for her sisters' capture. They meet Tiger as an enemy.
Something makes Hancock respect Tiger, like the later almost finishing her off but refusing to and being severely punished for it. Hancock helps him escape before he's killed. He promises to return.
Tiger takes days to return. Hancock and her sisters lose hope. We see Tiger recovering, seeking help from Neptune, then finally climbing the Red Line to make his promise come true.
Tiger's rampage on Mary Geoise. Aladdin, Koalla and the Boa sisters escape. "Run and never get caught again" moment, contrasting with Hancock being captured in the present. Boa sisters help Koalla but end up separated from her.
Montage of moments with the sisters fleeing constant persecution, eventually reaching Sabaody and meeting Nyon/Rayleigh/Shaki. Returning to Amazon Lily, lying about their past. Previous empress dying from love and pointing Hancock as successor, despite her not wishing the responsibility. Hancock gives up her past dream and becomes colder as she is constantly afraid of being exposed as a fraud.

That's my theory.

I wouldn't be surprised if Hancock ends up in the hands of Mjosgard, and he has to convince her that he changed.

Oh, and that Celestial Dragon mark on her back? It's totally going to be replaced by something, most likely a variation of the Straw Hat jolly roger.

SeaOfHope

I really like Hancock's relationship with Luffy. I know Deicide you say that Hancock being a part of the Straw Hats won't change anything, but I really don't think that. Hancock's past is honestly one of the few Luffy has bothered to remember. He doesn't listen to any of his crew members' pasts. He may not remember every detail of her past like Fisher Tiger's name, but he knows of her past as a slave, her connection to the Celestial Dragons, the shame she and her sisters bear on their backs, and I think it makes their relationship far more intimate. Also, Luffy owes her a lot.

Deicide

I really like Hancock's relationship with Luffy. I know Deicide you say that Hancock being a part of the Straw Hats won't change anything, but I really don't think that. Hancock's past is honestly one of the few Luffy has bothered to remember. He doesn't listen to any of his crew members' pasts. He may not remember every detail of her past like Fisher Tiger's name, but he knows of her past as a slave, her connection to the Celestial Dragons, the shame she and her sisters bear on their backs, and I think it makes their relationship far more intimate. Also, Luffy owes her a lot.

Luffy's relationship to each crewmate is unique. When I say it won't change anything, I mean in relation to the "no-romance" rule. It will be played for laughs, maybe hinted in subtext, but never outright said or shown, nor explored in a deeper sense.

In the family dinamic, I see Hancock as the oldest child. A late teenage/young adult, close to Ma Robin, ashamed by Pa Franky's antics, squabbling with bro Sanji and sis Nami, but having special care for (and being overly protective of) the youngest siblings Luffy and Chopper.

SeaOfHope