Nothing queerer than falling through the sky and promising another girl that she can suck your blood for the rest of your life. 
My Hero Academia II - A true Hero
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She/Her
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@JulieYBM and people thing vampires are straight.
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@pariston_hill said in My Hero Academia II - A true Hero:
@JulieYBM and people thing vampires are straight.
It's amazing that anyone would think of a vampire as anything but a undead bisexual vamp.
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Lots of people have already mentioned this metaphor, but it's really sad to see so many people following what is essentially a dollar attached to a string when it comes to LBGTQ pairings in shonens.
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That's all we get from the Deku clone? Thought there'd be more. Other than that, good chapter. Although, it's presented in a way Toga will get a second chance but she's killed so many people and became a terrorist I don't see that happening.
NNID: jervinnectar
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@Nectar Hori did burry your problems with the character in this weeks chapter.
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In a vacuum, it was a very nice and poignant chapter. But in the context of the entire Ochako/Himiko arc, it feels pretty poorly conceived. I feel like Hori wrote himself into a corner he didn't know how to get out of. Last chapter Ochako was spouting some really juvenile crap and making promises there was no way in hell she could keep. Not letting Himiko get captured, giving blood for the rest of her life, the "just wanna chat about love" mumbo jumbo. (As an aside, I don't know if that last one is just a translation issue, but it sounds positively puerile in English.) Himiko's murdered dozens, she was absolutely going to end up serving life in prison. So instead of trying to follow through on any of that and exposing Ochako's words for the hollow tripe they are, Hori just kills Himiko off instead. Or at least it seems like it - this is the one time in this series where I'd be okay with a fakeout death, so that we can actually deal with the fallout and consequences of a character's actions and properly tie the knot on themes of rehabilitation.
I'm also a little uneasy with Hori's depiction of the Ochako/Himiko "romance". The League of Villains represents the repressed and marginalized ranks of society. Yeah it's metaphorical in some aspects, like lizard man and drinking blood, but on the flipside he tackled racism very directly (albeit also very poorly) and they literally had a trans woman as a member. So when Hori takes the one bisexual character and makes her a mass murderer and a molester (often drawn in a titillating manner on the cover pages), it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Well uh, hey, at least personally I'm glad I wasn't wrong about her character and what she represents. She doesn't belong with humanity and Horikoshi knows that it's better to kill her off than to tackle what is essentially a difficult subject.
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This was the only outcome that could happen short of her going to prison (which who knows, maybe she will survive, If someone can get there in time it's not impossible). Even if Toga is only like this because of society, it wouldn't be very satisfying if she got off scot-free for her crimes, and I think her sacrficing herself to save someone isntead of kill someone is a very poignant way to wrap up her story.
In a different world, Toga's unique quirk could've helped her save countless lives but because of the society she lived in where anyone who didn't conform to social norms is a deviant, she was shunned, made to fear about how others view her and ultimately pushed into the villain role. It really does push the messaging Hori has been going for about society itself being the real evil.
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I think it is important to keep in mind that while she did save Ochako, she still chose to die over living in her world. Jin didn't die after giving his blood to Toga and she would be fine if she didn't give all her blood. It's in the dialogue, she can't bear to live in this world.
Saying that it is society's evil or it being circumstantial denounces the last page, Himiko Toga clearly states that she lived the way she wanted to and was proud of that.
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Ok, this chapter was good. That final page really hit me.
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I expected Horikoshi to fumble the ball at the goal line again but i think he did pretty well here.
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Lot of penal populism here, yikes.
I think Hori tied a bow on these character pathos - not a good bow but closes the package.And he took a easy way out, as Toga freeing herself from her perspective shackles of this world, don't address rehabilitation or atonement. It cements the Lady's Macbeth "out damned spot" view that society has on crime - and or sin - that there is no place for rehabilitation and that those that committed will forever be shunned for past acts.
He didn't need to come with a perfect alternative, he didn't need to come with a one-size fits all alternative, he didn't need to come with an alternative that works irl. He chose status quo, as he has chosen with Jin, and as he chosen with heteromorph racism.
Well I'm gonna be pissed if Touya McNugget survives but Toga doesn't.
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@zeltrax225 said in My Hero Academia II - A true Hero:
Well uh, hey, at least personally I'm glad I wasn't wrong about her character and what she represents. She doesn't belong with humanity and Horikoshi knows that it's better to kill her off than to tackle what is essentially a difficult subject.
Dude, the manga is near 100% unambiguous that Togas fate is an result of societal failure and villainization which could've been avoided had she had an Ochako in her life earlier hence this being a tragedy, I know you're commited to your stance but how is this your takeaway
Like yeah to a certain extent Toga dying is an easy way out, but its very clear that society going unchanged and producing yet more Togas would be very bad. Togas fate was clearly not an "sucks but whaddayagonna do some people are just psychos" inevetability
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I'm not committed to my stance though. My entire argument with pariston the other day had me walking away believing that there were a lot of cracks in what I thought and that he had a good point about Toga as a character, the BDSM thing, and a bunch of stuff.
However, the manga isn't 100% unambiguous that everything she does is because of societal failure because, by her own admission, she didn't regret what she has done. Hence, the "I lived exactly how I wanted to". Ochako is still an exception and she, like the plot, still doesn't have any answer because we all know Toga will never be happy in living a life in prison. It is an easy answer to a difficult question, you've mentioned that yourself. The no-reply from her when she asked her whether she will keep giving her blood forever does say something. I'm not saying that she is a unchanging psycho and society has no fault when I meant I wasn't wrong about what she represents but rather how Horikoshi has decided to approach the subject which resulted in this closure for her character. Which basically amounted to removing her from society and the plot itself because he couldn't write a satisfying way for her character arc. She doesn't belong in this series which has consistently failed to address the heavier themes that it has brought up and has never even attempt to fix the cracks in the world he himself wrote. You can see this with Gentle, and with Shiragaki's whole motivation, and a lot of what AfO stands for.
Maybe phrasing it as "Horikoshi decided to write her out because she wasn't able to handle what she represent" would have been more fitting a post. And I am committed to my stance that this series does not have the depth and ability to handle her well, hence what I meant by she doesn't belong with humanity and he knows that its better to kill her of. But in a more meta way, believe it or not, I am NOT committed in my stance that this is how it is supposed to work in the real world.
Maybe if someone is truly born a psycho and can only be happy through inflicting extreme pain on others, then yes, I am still committed on the fact that removal is necessary and even then I can see the flaws in that take. But I've been uh, enlightened, or talked to that obviously Himiko isn't the case and there is bias projection coming from me to want this to be deeper than it has to be. Which is why her case is certainly different.Yet after all the talk, all the execution, all the back and forth, the resulting factor is the removal of her character which ironically is the polar opposite of redemption and incorporation of her character into the overall good for the society. The outcome is the removal of her character which was my entire spew on how it was going to go for her and how people really just tend to root out what is difficult to accept. Even if the underlying message is different, Horikoshi did exactly what people would do when posed with a difficult question: you write it out or place it in a position where you don't have to deal with it. You can give him credit for the exploration of the themes or that he tries to do nuance but ultimately his decision was this and whatever breadcrumbs he has leftover he is going to use to write your typical shounen a better tomorrow we have learnt from this tagline.
TLDR: I was wrong about her as a character but I don't think I was wrong about how Horikoshi sees her and was going to use her for the narrative. I could have phrased it better but it really is what it is.
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"I'll give you my blood for the rest of my life" is literally just how we Sapphic women flirt, actually.
I don't believe in punishing people for crime, so my main issue here is that Horikoshi would really just throw a bisexual and traumatized girl to the wolves of death so that his Tabula Rasa can 'learn' a lesson without having any real stake in the matter because she isn't really a part of any of the minorities getting murdered here. Readers are consistently being asked to see minorities through the eyes of textually 'normal' characters and that's just going to ultimately come across as less and less biting.
As for the kink stuff: yeah, it shouldn't be in a comic aimed at kids. It's honestly pretty wasted on the series.
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Previously I was wondering what kind of path forward there could possibly be,
since Toga knew only prison or execution was in her future, but Ochako was insistent on turning things positive.I was running all kinds of future scenarios through my head.
Now I see that I was overthinking it all along.
A self-sacrifice death like this actually does feel pretty fitting,
a bittersweet middle ground where Toga used her final act of free will to save her love.Although (like other commenters here) I'd have liked to see an outcome that tackled the consequences and difficulties of the aftermath,
I do see what Hori may have been going for on a poetic level. I kinda respect it ngl.Also have to say, these past few chapters had some great artwork too.
Hori put his heart into drawing this conclusion for sure.He may not be the greatest of storytellers, but I will always give him credit for trying his best.
No matter where the story goes, I always feel the earnest effort from Hori radiating from the page. -
I thought her choosing to die giving blood rather than taking it was incredible character stuff, but also everyone else is correct that it was the easiest way out. Still, Toga got to feel the validation of having her natural self be treated as "normal", and that was really nice!
That part that sucks is at the end of the story, all bets are on society being put back together as it had been and chugging right along, with nary a care for the Toga's who were created and destroyed in the process. I swear this manga better end with a 30 year timeskip to where most of Class 1A are members of parliament or Congress or something and spend all their time cranking out laws that honor the suffering of the poor League bastards and tries to create a less oppressive society.
Except Spinner. F*** Spinner.
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@Sirxxx said in My Hero Academia II - A true Hero:
That part that sucks is at the end of the story, all bets are on society being put back together as it had been and chugging right along, with nary a care for the Toga's who were created and destroyed in the process.
I think Hori went with a approach that's rather on line with japanese soft conservatism - and with liberals (not the economic ones) - on things.
The Status Quo and society that Society that creates it suck, but you know what would suck worse? Meaningful change, specially the type that requires the ones that oblige with the status quo to change something.
Except Spinner. F*** Spinner.
Shoji "Tentacole" Mezo, anti-anti-racist Hero. -
I reread my earlier post and I realized I accidentally wrote "copout death" instead of "fakeout death". Which completely flips the meaning I intended to convey lol. Went back and edited it. What I meant to say was, I would rather Toga survive so that the story can actually tackle the tough questions of how to address her situation properly, rather than taking the easy way out and killing her off.
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The more I think about it, the more I think it would be amazing if Horikoshi and JUMP had the backbone to publish an ending like Kamen Rider Black Sun where the children become freedom fighters because the adults refuse to clean up their own mess. It would be amazing if Uraraka developed Toga's love of blood and had to carry that will on as a result (or just, you know, keep Toga alive like a sane writer).
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I'm really split on these chapters. I like Toga, she's one of the most interesting characters and I think this was a fitting end for her. Especially her last words about living like she wanted to and seeing herself as cute and normal. But I don't vibe with how Ochako solved this whole thing or how fast Toga decided to warm up to her. But I'm also not sure how else Ochako was supposed to go about it, I don't feel like any hero could have a genuine talk with Toga and really understand her.
Props to Horikoshi for at least going all out. While he misses the mark here and there it feels like he's wanted to draw this for a long time, and he's clearly pouring his heart into this.
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If that's the best answer that Horikoshi can come up with to a society that has fewer tools to deal with more and more people that don't fit the mold each passing day, I can only feel even more sorry for the Japanese minorities that fight the good fight.
Thank God that Ochako won't have to make any significant changes to her way of living. That would be awful, wouldn't it?
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@Goukan Looking at the US and Europe that's not a particular Japanese problem.
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The problem with so many shonen is that they often try to convey these grandiose messages of societal change but are written from the perspective of teens with no real power to do anything about it. If Himiko lives, would she realistically be allowed to go to therapy or rehab, rather than prison, without it feeling like bullshit? The characters and society in the story would not accept it as they currently stand. At best, we'll get an epilogue set way in the future, showing everyone as adults enacting the new policies and lessons they've learned. But that leaves us here in the present with a cheap solution, basically turning Himiko into a martyr that conveniently wrote herself out of the aftermath.
I'm sure Hori had the thematic endgoal for the villains in mind from the beginning, considering how early Shigaraki was introduced, but he really should've extrapolated backwards from the kind of story he wanted to tell during his initial planning. The school setting and protagonists he constructed don't really make sense with all the stuff he tried to tackle in the back half of the series. He pretty much wrote what he was comfortable with or what he thought would be popular, and then had to twist all the pieces together later. As was mentioned, is Ochako really the right vehicle to tell Himiko's story? On the one hand it's a little nice to see someone so heteronormative try to bridge the gap and understand the other side; on the other hand, it truly does feel a bit "white savior"-esque, having an outsider with no stakes in the matter be the one to usher change.
And why were two-bit randos like Spinner and Shoji the faces of the racism storyline? At least they're both heteromorphs themselves, but they are so unremarkable and underbaked that it feels pathetic leaning that role on them. Shoji yelling "We can't fight violence with violence!!!" was just sad. And that one pig dude switching sides over it, as if Shoji said anything profound at all... Just shit messaging in general, painting it as if the obvious answer was there all along and the oppressed side just never stopped to consider it for more than a second before. As if marginalized groups in real life haven't heard that a billion times and seen how (not) far that approach got them.
I know people hate chosen one stories on the surface, but your protagonist needs to stand out at least in some way, otherwise why make the story about them. They must possess the self drive, the ability and the unique circumstances to believably act as the catalyst the story needs. Hori tried to tackle too many themes at once that each required full focus, careful consideration and proper seeding to explore in a satisfying manner, and as a result he didn't realize any of them to their full potential.
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Toga problem could have been solve with one of those quirk removing bullets
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Burry the Lilies
https://mangaplus.shueisha.co.jp/viewer/1018284 -
She should've lived! And continued to smile! And married her wife!!
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The official made it more clear that she chose to die to avoid being caged for the rest of her life. She didn't really change at all, and I think she knew that--and she did not seem to have a lot of interest in making amends for her past villainy, which is honestly good for her. She didn't get talk no jutsu'd--she just found a way to finish her life on her own terms, and did it saving someone else, rather than trying to kill as many people as possible (i.e. 10 minutes ago).
The official translation does a significantly worse job conveying the intent of the characters though. I've heard that translations not only about matching the words, but also conveying the meaning of what's being said. And with the sole exception of Toga asking whether Ochako planned to visit her in prison, the official really woofed it this week...
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Hori made a mess but the chapter itself hits quite good. Memorable character moment and finale.
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I think that presentation wise, Hori is still top notch. The panelling and artwork does a fantastic job conveying the emotional gravitas that Hori is clearly going for. However, the story attached feels very messy, and not in an intentional way.
Its a pretty common thing for stories to have not completely satisfying conclusions to give readers something to think about, but the conclusion to this fight feels like it doesn't seriously contend with a lot of the questions it raises to try and reach a short term immediate answer.
That could be said for a lot of the plot line resolutions. I do actually like the fact that Touya and Endeavour might survive, I think that is more compelling than them getting killed off. Presentation wise though, that part was probably the weakest conclusion wise.
The heteromorph plot was probably the strongest marginalization allegory in the series. Heteromorph discrimination is a much better metaphor in MHA than what the X-men has with mutants because in MHA, nearly everyone has powers, and the explicit reason that Heteromorphs are discriminated against, is not because they are uniquely dangerous, but because people don't like how they look. They're just considered outside the norm for their appearance(this is different from Toga, who is actually someone who is quite dangerous). That plot line also had greeat presentation, but was super underbaked and reached a very milquetoast answer.
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Gawd, I hope they date one another.
Revive Toga, Horikoshi!!!
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Gawd, I can only imagine the shit he's drawn of Toga and Uraraka together.
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Togas introduction had her killing what looked like a kid by draining his blood. Her backstory is that she feels a compulsion to drink peoples blood she likes and she can't really control that urge.
I know hori tried to sell the idea over time that it's societies fault for not accepting her that she's like that. But I never bought it. Maybe if it was done in reverse, where she's empathetic at first but then becomes more of a mass murderer over time. The way it was done, just felt like retroactive "sympathetic villain flashback time
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I still blame Toga's parents. They never even tried to understand which is surprising because I'm wondering if one of her parents' quirk was blood related. Give her donated or animal blood or fake blood. Even something as simple as not calling your daughter a monster could've done wonders for her mentally. You can blame society, yes, but having a safe space at home would've helped too.
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I have no idea how Horikoshi drew that chapter on a weekly schedule. It's inhumane.
Anyway, goddamn, that was a cool turn of events.
She/Her
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@JulieYBM said in My Hero Academia II - A true Hero:
I have no idea how Horikoshi drew that chapter on a weekly schedule. It's inhumane.
I hope that O MY SIX ASSISTENTS pulled the work here. Lots of tiny details in the transform page.
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Ever since learning MHA takes place in the "future", I've never given much validation to "only people with quirks can become superheroes" and this chapter drives that point home. That one rule breaks the world for me because I've seen heroes in other stories without superpowers. As good as the chapter was, Horikoshi really put himself in a corner with that rule because he could've explored the non-quirk hero premise more and it just doesn't make sense that someone, company, or organization with a ton of money never thought to do what he just did.
NNID: jervinnectar
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Ugh how is he so cool? All Might's always been one of the best characters in the series but he's been in the background for so long I almost forgot. He's as incredible as ever.
Doesn't hurt that I'm a sucker for a heroic last stand with no real hope of winning.
@Nectar said in My Hero Academia II - A true Hero:
Ever since learning MHA takes place in the "future", I've never given much validation to "only people with quirks can become superheroes" and this chapter drives that point home. That one rule breaks the world for me because I've seen heroes in other stories without superpowers. As good as the chapter was, Horikoshi really put himself in a corner with that rule because he could've explored the non-quirk hero premise more and it just doesn't make sense that someone, company, or organization with a ton of money never thought to do what he just did.
I think the prevalence of Quirks makes supporting a quirkless hero unnecessary. All Might's suit is clearly insanely expensive- why bother investing so much in a quirkless person when you could just find someone with a powerful quirk instead? You could either accomplish the same effectiveness for cheaper or reach greater heights instead.
I do think support items have been underused though. Top ranked heroes should have similarly excellent gear but we don't see Endeavor, Jeanist, Kamui Woods, etc. using any items besides custom suits. Likewise, I think there was the opportunity for a particularly rich and self-indulgent person with a lame Quirk or none at all to be a support gear-empowered vigilante. But All Might getting this suit is clearly a niche case.
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This is the most excited for a fight I've been in a long while. And only All Might could do it.
@Nectar said in My Hero Academia II - A true Hero:
That one rule breaks the world for me because I've seen heroes in other stories without superpowers.
And aren't those some of our favorites? Batman and Iron Man come to mind. Really, this chapter seems like a love note to Iron Man (and mecha in general).
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With or without a quirk, All Might never stops being a hero. He can't win for himself, but that was never the victory he intended to achieve anyway. That chapter did a spectacular job of illustrating how deranged All for One is and why he's falling for such clear bait.
Missed opportunity to have La Brava strike the classic Ichigo "holding-wrist" pose with her finger out when she started the stream :'-(
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@Satsuki Agreed. This chapter was great.
But, my issue is with the notion that only people with quirks can become heroes. Yes, it's much easier (and probably way less expensive) but it's hard to believe no one or organization ever tried creating a hero based solely on technology. Especially, when this series takes place in the future. I just see that as a glaring flaw in the MHA world and a missed opporunity to expand on that premise or even the idea of have an automated hero. ...But, then again, maybe Wash is a robot.
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All-Might having to answer the question posed at the beginning of the series in a battle against a foe that can steal Quirks is a neat little idea (putting aside the whole prohibilitively expensive technology stuff, of course). If ol' Mr. Yagi survives this predicament he could very well gain an Iron Man-esque career.
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I think with the success rate of Mei inventions, and the sassy robots I don't think powersuits would be that prohibitive expensive.
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They could have indeed developed technology based on quirks like Vegapunk did with devil fruit powers in One Piece. They could have even developed a story angle where some test subjects were exploited/mistreated.
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Only if Deku had half All might charisma
