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    Chapter 902: End Roll

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    • theackwardstation
      theackwardstation @Sirxxx
      @Sirxxx last edited by
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      @Sirxxx:

      I may need to take this to another thread, but this statement brings up something I have not been able to stop thinking about for a long time:

      At our current story progression, there is no scenario whatsoever in which I can see the Strawhats (+allied fleets) EVER making a play on Marineford the way Whitebeard did. And he was a mere Yonkou. I have no idea how Luffy intends to become his version of Pirate King at this rate with, at most, 5 and a half competent fighters 😕

      In many ways, the same could be said of Whitebeard when only 4 of his Commanders stood out: Marco, Ace, Jozu and Vista. The others were of course strong people, but not something above the level of Luffy's crew by the end of the series.

      And we have to take into account that Luffy's allies will be stronger than Whitebeard's allies.

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        Neomaster121
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        I'm glad this is the end of "Sanji's" year.

        Absolutely trashed his character for me

        Oda hope you are just having a quieter year

        http://neomaster121.mybrute.com

        Click above suprisingly addictive

        http://mybrute.com/team/107019

        join the team if your strong enough

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          Sirxxx @theackwardstation
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          @theackwardstation:

          In many ways, the same could be said of Whitebeard when only 4 of his Commanders stood out: Marco, Ace, Jozu and Vista. The others were of course strong people, but not something above the level of Luffy's crew by the end of the series.

          And we have to take into account that Luffy's allies will be stronger than Whitebeard's allies.

          Hmmmm…...maaaybe. His other eight division commanders did get serious hype points from all of the Navy bigwigs present, at least. Even though they didn't have serious on-screen feats, I got the impression that they were serious threats.

          I can't imagine vice admirals speaking in awed tones about Brooke, or Chopper, or Nami. Or the RabbleHats seriously fighting them.

          @Kdom:

          but there is a problem with Chopper 🙂

          That sweet, sweet Merch! 😉

          Originally Posted by .access timeco.

          He won't disobey if he dies, only if he dies when he dies!

          Because the madness that is AP Forums chapter discussions must not perish from the earth

          theackwardstation Count Mario 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • theackwardstation
            theackwardstation @Sirxxx
            @Sirxxx last edited by
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            @Sirxxx:

            Hmmmm…...maaaybe. His other eight division commanders did get serious hype points from all of the Navy bigwigs present, at least. Even though they didn't have serious on-screen feats, I got the impression that they were serious threats.

            I can't imagine vice admirals speaking in awed tones about Brooke, or Chopper, or Nami. Or the RabbleHats seriously fighting them.

            Vice-admirals are a weird thing in One Piece, because some of them look kinda impressive, like Momonga and Onigumo, but most of the others are treated only as punchbags to highlight other characters, like Bastille and Maynard in Dressrosa. I hardly see them as fearsome threats at this point in time.

            Since it's to be expected that most of the Strawhats will get 1v1 against Blackbeard's commanders before the final war against the WG, they will be enough to go against most Vice-Admirals at that point in the story… and then we even have the Grand Fleet.

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            • Count Mario
              Count Mario @Sirxxx
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              @Sirxxx:

              Hmmmm…...maaaybe. His other eight division commanders did get serious hype points from all of the Navy bigwigs present, at least. Even though they didn't have serious on-screen feats, I got the impression that they were serious threats.

              I can't imagine vice admirals speaking in awed tones about Brooke, or Chopper, or Nami. Or the RabbleHats seriously fighting them.

              Hype points in One Piece for randomly introduced supporting characters are as worthless as pennies. Oda does that all the time to spice the arc up with superficial stakes. Like with the Yeti Cool Brothers, the commanders in Thriller Bark that got squashed by Oars, Germa 66 being right below Sanji at best and having a clone army made up completely of fodder, etc. Only main arc antagonists and recurring series characters are worth caring about.

              Look at it like this. EoS Luffy=Whitebeard, Zoro/Sanji/Jinbe=Marco/Jozu/Vista, the rest of the Straw Hats and the Grand Fleet equal all of Whitebeard's other non-important commanders/allies. And the strength levels of Vice Admirals greatly vary similar to the Warlords. Look at how often the Vice Admirals get trashed to hype other characters.

              Spoiler:

              "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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              • Long John Silvers Rayleigh
                Long John Silvers Rayleigh @Count Mario
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                Long John Silvers Rayleigh
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                @Count:

                Hype points in One Piece for randomly introduced supporting characters are as worthless as pennies. Oda does that all the time to spice the arc up with superficial stakes. Like with the Yeti Cool Brothers, the commanders in Thriller Bark that got squashed by Oars, Germa 66 being right below Sanji at best and having a clone army made up completely of fodder, etc. Only main arc antagonists and recurring series characters are worth caring about.

                Look at it like this. EoS Luffy=Whitebeard, Zoro/Sanji/Jinbe=Marco/Jozu/Vista, the rest of the Straw Hats and the Grand Fleet equal all of Whitebeard's other non-important commanders/allies. And the strength levels of Vice Admirals greatly vary similar to the Warlords. Look at how often the Vice Admirals get trashed to hype other characters.

                Vice admirals are strong as the plot needs them to be.

                Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:

                So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?

                H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler

                Spoiler:

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                • Kaido King of the Beasts
                  Kaido King of the Beasts
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                  My thoughts on Sanji are…complicated, to say the least. Like, I understood (mostly) what Oda was trying to do with him. But I'm not really satisfied either. I can't even make a consensus in my own head.

                  This arc was definitely a pretty big homage to the Baratie Arc. Y'know, Sanji's debut arc where he took quite a bit of abuse to protect his comrades, didn't beat an arc villain, and fed one of the villains, which didn't have completely positive results but did cause one of the antagonists to gain a pretty tremendous respect for him and go against his own crew as a result. It's interesting how some of Sanji's founding traits and actions seem to be so foreign in some people's eyes. But I don't want to say that this totally justifies Sanji's actions in this arc. Is this a case of Sanji's founding personality traits being the key to getting by an unbeatable enemy and taking great advantage of a food-themed arc, or is it regressing a character that at one point had been better?

                  It was great to see Sanji's cooking skills being put front and center here especially since that hasn't really been the case between Baratie and this. Here's hoping more of the Straw Hats' trades take more important roles than just background activities. Sanji doesn't live to fight like Luffy and Zoro do. His end goal isn't to become the strongest at anything, but to reach the place he's dreamed about visiting since he was a child and to significantly improve his trade. Most of the Straw Hats' goals would result in a significant impact on the world, but Sanji can easily return to a mundane chef's life after this voyage, maybe take over the Baratie, with the only obstacle being his bounty (if bounties will even still be in place by the end of the series). Sanji's strength is a byproduct of his cook training; he doesn't live and die by his legs. So how much does he owe in terms of physical feats, in an arc where the Straw Hats couldn't win by fighting?

                  That being said, I will agree that the cake baking was not exciting; the escape scene where Sanji attacked Oven and got the cake onto Bege's ship was much more so. So it's apparent that Oda isn't quite so good at doing that as he is at action. And yeah, Sanji didn't have any significant feats in this arc in that regard. But the question is, what would have counted as a significant feat for Sanji, in an arc where the villains are so powerful that none of the heroes pulled off any lasting successes against them? He had plenty of little feats scattered throughout the arc, like the aforementioned escape scene, his fight with Judge, and the early stages of him rescuing Luffy, but what would a big one have been? Would people be satisfied if he did a Carrot and tore through an entire fleet? Maybe, although it should be already clear that he can tear through mooks and doesn't need a powerup to do so. A one-on-one fight? That could have worked, but never felt like a significant possibility because which of the non-Sweet Commanders would be distinguished enough to deserve one and how would it beneficially impact the plot? Maybe Sanji needs to do something that works better like...making a cake? Well, how could that go wrong? :ninja:

                  Right now, I think the biggest reason for the disappointment in Sanji's fighting abilities is how Oda wasn't able to execute Sanji's non-fighting moments, the things that were intended to carry him through this arc, very well. Let's say that Oda declared 2017 to be the "Year of Jinbe". Would it be met with the same level of scorn, since Jinbe's actions during the escape didn't have any lasting success either, until he basically threw his life away? Something tells me no; although Jinbe would have his detractors just as he does now, Oda executed Jinbe's motivations and actions well! His motivations were laid out well, and that scene of him piloting the Sunny through the tidal wave was hella well done - something Oda clearly knew how to successfully demonstrate. Jinbe did it all like a boss even though his actions were usually met with a vengeance. Sanji's cake did a lot to help the Straw Hats, and they would not have gotten away without him, but the problem was it was not sufficiently depicted as enough of a centerpiece for Sanji as Jinbe's helmsmanship was for him. Imagine if the tidal wave scene had been removed and our exposure to Jinbe's helmsmanship skills was the BMP's comments in Ch. 888 about him outrunning their fleet and him dodging Smoothie's flying slashes in Ch. 892. That's basically what happened with Sanji and the cake. Baratie worked well enough because it was our first time seeing the kind of person Sanji is, and the impact food can have on people. 800 chapters later and we're revisiting this concept, there needs to be a significant sign of growth, and not just by having a fancier dish and more gushing reactions to his skill.

                  I really do hope that Oda will keep focusing on Sanji's growth in his cooking, but if he does, he had better work on making the baking exciting. I don't read Toriko or Shokugeki, but I get the feeling that those series did a pretty good job of turning cooking exciting in some capacity. And balancing it out with some sick fighting/infiltration scenes definitely wouldn't hurt at all. One Piece does pride itself on its action, after all.

                  Spoiler:

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                    AmalaNetwork @Kaido King of the Beasts
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                    "Year of Jinbe"

                    Chapter 863 alone would justify it being his year(s).
                    Sanji never got a single moment as impactful as that. And it wasn't even a fight.

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                    • BellisarioFaith
                      BellisarioFaith
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                      Okay, comparisons time. Quite a few today.

                      • In the Mangastream version, Sanji thinks to himself about Pedro, "I thought you said that this…this place wouldn't be your grave." In Jaimini's Box and VIZ, his thoughts don't say anything about Pedro actually saying this, with the VIZ version being "I never would've thought this would be your resting place."

                      • Carrot's words after telling Sanji to give Pedro a "thank you" are a little different in each version, though JB and VIZ are more similar; in MS, she says "Because dis is whab he wanted!" (the only version that has her words distorted by crying, too); in JB, she says "It's fine how things ended up!"; and in VIZ, it's "This was for the best!"

                      • A flower calls out "Mama's back, guys!" in MS, but it's "Mama' is back up!" in JB and "Mama's back to her old self!" in VIZ.

                      • The official translation lyrics to the "Soul Pocus" song:

                        Soul pocus, soul pocus / The words of the soul / Onward we go, by breeze and by brine / minds heavy with thoughts / of the bloody seas behind / Though sugar is hardly its intended focus / The enchanted flowers and trees sing the sweetest soul pocus / Greedy Mama's false plot was both devious and smart! / Matching fairy tale prince and princess fair / In a sham that was meant to keep them apart / When alluring nectar has its own bold mind / sweet sentiment can be so bad for the heart / A death-defying flight ensues / love lost in the confusion / Take your candy coming in / And leave by execution / The fun is finding out who wins at the grand resolution / Soul pocus, soul pocus / Such self-centered words / When tempted by the scent / Of that sweet cake slice / The first step is to ask about / The nature of its price. / For this is not the good kind of surprise / Will you suffer her trick or hand over your treats? / Sweets can be so very bad for the soul / Soul pocus, our Mama so material / Will it be years off your life? Or your life itself? / Soul pocus, the song of our Queen.

                      • On the panel of Pudding crying right before her flashback, both of the scanlations have the person over the Transponder snail say "Hey! What're you doing?" In the official version, it's "C'mon, get it together!"

                      • In the scanlations, Pudding thinks to herself after Sanji asks her to get married "If you knew how I truly am…" and leaves the sentence open-ended. In the official translation, she's more specific: "You'll act like the others when you learn what I am."

                      • Also in the scanlations, there's a place where Pudding seems to be addressing Sanji as "JiJi" (with the JB version containing a TN that this is her pet name for him). In the official version, that same box instead says "Fzzt"…a sound effect for the cigarette burning out, maybe? (Since the box is right next to where the cigarette is on the ground.) Or if not that, maybe a sound effect for her kissing him?

                      • In JB, Brûlée asks Katakuri, "You fell on your back on purpose, didn't you? I saw you falling forward at first. Weren't you doing that?" In the MS and VIZ versions, she instead asks why he "turned [him]self over" (MS)/"switched to [his] back" (VIZ), adding "Didn't you fall face-first originally?"

                      • In MS, when Katakuri is thinking to himself in the flashback, he thinks "No blind spots!" in MS, but instead it's "I'll show no weakness!" in VIZ (and JB is similar).

                      Hidden:

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                      • theackwardstation
                        theackwardstation @AmalaNetwork
                        @AmalaNetwork last edited by
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                        @Kaido:

                        That being said, I will agree that the cake baking was not exciting; the escape scene where Sanji attacked Oven and got the cake onto Bege's ship was much more so. So it's apparent that Oda isn't quite so good at doing that as he is at action.

                        Regarding this specific point, I'm on the same team as you that the cake baking was not exciting, unfortunately… but from all I've seen around, I'm the only one that also remembers Sanji when reading chapter 900. Honestly, even if the baking process could have been so much better, Oda's dedication to writing Mama's foodgasm was such a great moment to finish this cake plot. Each panel of Big Mom's reaction is a hit from Sanji.

                        --- Update From New Post Merge ---

                        @AmalaNetwork:

                        Chapter 863 alone would justify it being his year(s).
                        Sanji never got a single moment as impactful as that. And it wasn't even a fight.

                        Luffy vs Sanji? The cigarette scene? His background? All the meticulous depiction of his hopelessness throughout multiple scenes? (with clever ideas like unconsciously cooking his friends' favorite foods for Pudding). Does a badass scene worth more than a good story?

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                        • Kaido King of the Beasts
                          Kaido King of the Beasts @AmalaNetwork
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                          @AmalaNetwork:

                          Chapter 863 alone would justify it being his year(s).
                          Sanji never got a single moment as impactful as that. And it wasn't even a fight.

                          Chapter 870 ?

                          Spoiler:

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                            AmalaNetwork @theackwardstation
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                            Luffy vs Sanji? The cigarette scene? His background? All the meticulous depiction of his hopelessness throughout multiple scenes? (with clever ideas like unconsciously cooking his friends' favorite foods for Pudding). Does a badass scene worth more than a good story?

                            It's not about being "badass". It's about recovering from emotional and plot slump. And he was way too passive through whole arc.
                            Fight with Luffy was very humiliating.
                            Cigarette scene was lowest point of that slump.
                            Too much hopelessness. And then cake storyline ended without an "oompf" it should have had.
                            "It was tasty, - said BM, - Now back to ragemurder on high seas!" is not an ending you expect after not one, but two declarations of "I will knock her out with my cooking"

                            @Kaido:

                            Chapter 870 ?

                            Was it really? Wasn't really different to usual "you're not my real dad" routine, which started with Judge appearance. After all, Germa learned nothing.
                            Although, that Jinbe scene debatably is moot in hindsight too.

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                            • imperioonepiece
                              imperioonepiece @BellisarioFaith
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                              @BellisarioFaith:

                              Thanks for you hard work as always!

                              I liked how Viz translated the song.

                              Btw, would it be possible if you could also add Oda's comment in Shounen Jump every week in your comparisons? Viz translates those comments too and I in particular, and I hope I'm not the only one, would like to read them.

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                              • desa
                                desa @theackwardstation
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                                @theackwardstation:

                                Regarding this specific point, I'm on the same team as you that the cake baking was not exciting, unfortunately… but from all I've seen around, I'm the only one that also remembers Sanji when reading chapter 900. Honestly, even if the baking process could have been so much better, Oda's dedication to writing Mama's foodgasm was such a great moment to finish this cake plot. Each panel of Big Mom's reaction is a hit from Sanji.

                                The foodgasm was good the problem was that it bringed Big Mom back to her old self rather than knock her out from deliciouness or stun her for the rest of the arc. How great the cake was was brushed off to quick and had to little effect.

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                                • theackwardstation
                                  theackwardstation @AmalaNetwork
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                                  @AmalaNetwork:

                                  It's not about being "badass". It's about recovering from emotional and plot slump. And he was way too passive through whole arc.
                                  Fight with Luffy was very humiliating.
                                  Cigarette scene was lowest point of that slump.
                                  Too much hopelessness. And then cake storyline ended without an "oompf" it should have had.
                                  "It was tasty, - said BM, - Now back to ragemurder on high seas!" is not an ending you expect after not one, but two declarations of "I will knock her out with my cooking"

                                  First I need to make a call back to your post that I had answered. You said that Sanji didn't get any impactful scene that justified being his Year, as if Sanji didn't get any highlight at all. So my answer was that he had plenty of impactful scenes (at least to me) and that he was the most proeminent character from a storyline perspective. Now reading your new post, I understand that what's in question here is not if Sanji had impactful scenes or not, but the mood of these scene.

                                  What you qualify as the "Year of Someone" is a triumphant mood, but my definition is much closer to the concept of a lead character, being the one whose story is being told. Not that you need to agree with me, since "Year of Someone" is such a meaningless expression that each one will understand according to their own preferences, whatever were Oda's intentions for the character. In any case, Sanji certainly fits my criteria better than Jimbe, so it's his year in my eyes. And for a character that you're calling passive, Sanji took the rein of the plot in multiple instance to the point that almost everything that's happened is a consequence of his decisions, both the bad and the good outcomes for the Strawhats and the BMP.

                                  All that said, I agree that those two cliffhangers were completely unnecessary, although I appreciate the resolution of this arc.

                                  –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                  @desa:

                                  The foodgasm was good the problem was that it bringed Big Mom back to her old self rather than knock her out from deliciouness or stun her for the rest of the arc. How great the cake was was brushed off to quick and had to little effect.

                                  But what Kaidou was talking about is Oda's mastery in this kind of narrative, not if that's a feat for Sanji. So I'm agreeing with him that baking the cake was poorly executed, but pointing out that the resolution of the plot showed a lot of competence for a mangaka. The foodgasm musical was awesome, better than any reaction to eating in Food Wars, btw, unless someone's too much into fanservice.

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                                    AmalaNetwork @theackwardstation
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                                    No, I pretty much agree with that.
                                    Well, those scenes may be emotional and impactful, but, the point is: they made me (not just me,I guess) want and wait that triumphant moment for Sanji even more. It was his darkest night, and it looked like at any moment he will rise from that lukewarm post-ts pit, through battle, cooking, telling Germa to stick it for real, whatever. Aaaaaand it kind of didn't happen, so all those scenes missed the target in the end.
                                    That's just kinda dissapointing. Like alternate version of EL, where Usopp just sticks around but doesn't apologize at the end. No pay-off. No catharsis.

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                                    • theackwardstation
                                      theackwardstation @AmalaNetwork
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                                      @AmalaNetwork:

                                      No, I pretty much agree with that.
                                      Well, those scenes may be emotional and impactful, but, the point is: they made me (not just me,I guess) want and wait that triumphant moment for Sanji even more. It was his darkest night, and it looked like at any moment he will rise from that lukewarm post-ts pit, through battle, cooking, telling Germa to stick it for real, whatever. Aaaaaand it kind of didn't happen, so all those scenes missed the target in the end.
                                      That's just kinda dissapointing. Like alternate version of EL, where Usopp just sticks around but doesn't apologize at the end. No pay-off. No catharsis.

                                      I was very underwhelmed by chapter 856, when Sanji reunited with Luffy, so that pay off didn't come for me too. I do think that Sanji must compensate the crew for his actions, although he was pressured to a point never seen before in this series. However, I like how Nami said she wouldn't forvige him in the very next chapter… and now she's the only Strawhat not fawning over Sanji in the last 2 pages of chapter 902. So I'm really hopeful that Oda is going to bring this situation to the next arc and have Sanji apologize properly.

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                                        AmalaNetwork @theackwardstation
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                                        @theackwardstation:

                                        I was very underwhelmed by chapter 856, when Sanji reunited with Luffy, so that pay off didn't come for me too. I do think that Sanji must compensate the crew for his actions, although he was pressured to a point never seen before in this series. However, I like how Nami said she wouldn't forvige him in the very next chapter… and now she's the only Strawhat not fawning over Sanji in the last 2 pages of chapter 902. So I'm really hopeful that Oda is going to bring this situation to the next arc and have Sanji apologize properly.

                                        Honestly, I think people read too much into that panel. It would be interesting though (which is why I really doubt it will happen).
                                        Also, not sure there is a place for Sanji-related issues in Wano.

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                                        • theackwardstation
                                          theackwardstation @AmalaNetwork
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                                          @AmalaNetwork:

                                          Honestly, I think people read too much into that panel. It would be interesting though (which is why I really doubt it will happen).
                                          Also, not sure there is a place for Sanji-related issues in Wano.

                                          I wouldn't be so hopeless on the matter. One of the things that I loved in this arc was how thoughtful was Oda's portrayal of many characters' little (visual) reactions in multiple chapters, which shows that he's aware of how they're feeling. Going forward, it's difficult to imagine Zoro not bringing up the subject, for example, and we can't ignore that the losses in this arc are so real that we can sense the grief in the air. Even Sanji looks like carrying a burden right now, although Carrot was comforting him. Maybe I'm too optmistic, but I believe many of the Strawhats' actions in Wano will take into account their feeling of inferiority born in WCI and Sanji is at the heart of it.

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                                            AmalaNetwork @theackwardstation
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                                            @theackwardstation:

                                            I wouldn't be so hopeless on the matter. One of the things that I loved in this arc was how thoughtful was Oda's portrayal of many characters' little (visual) reactions in multiple chapters, which shows that he's aware of how they're feeling. Going forward, it's difficult to imagine Zoro not bringing up the subject, for example, and we can't ignore that the losses in this arc are so real that we can sense the grief in the air. Even Sanji looks like carrying a burden right now, although Carrot was comforting him. Maybe I'm too optmistic, but I believe many of the Strawhats' actions in Wano will take into account their feeling of inferiority born in WCI and Sanji is at the heart of it.

                                            Maybe I'm disillusioned with Oda. But sometimes, I feel he has a habit of picking safest and most predictable outcomes (taking them straight from Wadatsumi mouth).

                                            Nami forgave Sanji the second he caught her at the wedding. Pedro will come back. Zoro will bring what happened up exactly once in a gag scene. There will be no inferiority, everyone will be determined to take the emperor down (despite just running away from one with tail between legs).

                                            I will be really-really glad to be proven wrong at least on one of those.

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                                            • theackwardstation
                                              theackwardstation @AmalaNetwork
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                                              @AmalaNetwork:

                                              Maybe I'm disillusioned with Oda. But sometimes, I feel he has a habit of picking safest and most predictable outcomes (taking them straight from Wadatsumi mouth).

                                              We shouldn't only remember the lamest examples. If Oda only picked the safest outcome to write One Piece, WCI wouldn't exist. Weren't we just talking about Sanji? Many readers think Oda killed his character, even though it would be so easy to write a different story… just don't overstate his depression, give him a fight against a strong dude, make him beat up his family, anything glorious just for the sake of it... there were so many obvious pay offs theorized by the community. Really, just make it like every shonen arc ever. Instead we got a cake that barely saved the crew only to remind us that Sanji's true father is Zeff.

                                              Not that I'm using Sanji's case as a compliment to Oda (although I like it), but only to remember that Oda is challenging himself, both story-wise and artistically.

                                              I also must point out that the whole New World is being written in a very intrincated matter, with many arcs preparing multiple plots, so it's not beyond Oda to have this big overview of the pay offs of each character.

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                                                AmalaNetwork @theackwardstation
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                                                We shouldn't only remember the lamest examples.

                                                We shouldn't. But they keep happening.

                                                Oda killed his character

                                                He didn't. But he didn't salvage him either.

                                                Ok, I'm not saying he should have had some kind of big fight, or went full okama mode (although scratch it, I do want that one). But this is like Sanji solo-movie before "Avengers in Wano". Except, nothing was resolved, and what was is a technicality at best. The rest is after big showdown. Maybe.
                                                That is certainly not "every shonen arc ever", but being unusual doesn't make it flawless. Even then, it's not that unusual either, because we still had our Advancing Wall of Doom N1024234.

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                                                • theackwardstation
                                                  theackwardstation @AmalaNetwork
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                                                  @AmalaNetwork:

                                                  We shouldn't. But they keep happening.

                                                  He didn't. But he didn't salvage him either.

                                                  Ok, I'm not saying he should have had some kind of big fight, or went full okama mode (although scratch it, I do want that one). But this is like Sanji solo-movie before "Avengers in Wano". Except, nothing was resolved, and what was is a technicality at best. The rest is after big showdown. Maybe.
                                                  That is certainly not "every shonen arc ever", but being unusual doesn't make it flawless. Even then, it's not that unusual either, because we still had our Advancing Wall of Doom N1024234.

                                                  I'm not trying to argue about this plot's qualities and mistakes, only that it wasn't safe. Some cases will work out better than others, of course, that's also something personal for each reader. We just can't pidgeonhole Oda into a category of lack of audacity when writing major storylines in One Piece.

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                                                    AmalaNetwork @theackwardstation
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                                                    @theackwardstation:

                                                    I'm not trying to argue about this plot's qualities and mistakes, only that it wasn't safe. Some cases will work out better than others, of course, that's also something personal for each reader. We just can't pidgeonhole Oda into a category of lack of audacity when writing major storylines in One Piece.

                                                    It was pretty safe at some points. Leaving Sunny cliffhanger aside, there are moments like "BM vs Strawhats" where plot armor was so visible and thick, it actually hurt.
                                                    Or Katakuri suddenly turning into honorable orc, because Luffy isn't allowed to lose and retreat.
                                                    Or plot point with Zeff life in danger, which was only thing that forced Sanji to endure further humiliation from his nazi power ranger siblings, was handwaved by Reiju's "Nobody actually cares lol. And those cuffs are fake". We can debate, whether or not, Pedro is alive, but we all know, those threats won't ever be realized.
                                                    Or everything Smoothie.
                                                    Or Compote, who is even worse.
                                                    Because not cutting those corners would take too much time, and would make arc too complicated.
                                                    That's what I meant.

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                                                      Captain M @BellisarioFaith
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                                                      @BellisarioFaith:

                                                      • Also in the scanlations, there's a place where Pudding seems to be addressing Sanji as "JiJi" (with the JB version containing a TN that this is her pet name for him). In the official version, that same box instead says "Fzzt"…a sound effect for the cigarette burning out, maybe? (Since the box is right next to wear the cigarette is on the ground.) Or if not that, maybe a sound effect for her kissing him?

                                                      Stephen goes into detail in the podcast about the original text - which was jiji - being a sound effect for the cigarette burning out. It's in a box instead of being a normal sound effect because of the silent film thing that scene has going.

                                                      Jaimini was way off on that one and just tried to headcanon it into something that fit. It's surprising, that's the kinda thing I'd usually expect from Mangastream.

                                                      Vivre Card Archive One Piece in One Piece Covers Compilation

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                                                        DemonX @theackwardstation
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                                                        We know they will!

                                                        Nah, not necessarily, I hope. The more powerful the SHs get,the less there's a need for PiS and bad writing in the story. So I still have hope for the last few arcs at least.

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                                                          theackwardstation @AmalaNetwork
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                                                          @AmalaNetwork:

                                                          It was pretty safe at some points. Leaving Sunny cliffhanger aside, there are moments like "BM vs Strawhats" where plot armor was so visible and thick, it actually hurt.
                                                          Or Katakuri suddenly turning into honorable orc, because Luffy isn't allowed to lose and retreat.
                                                          Or plot point with Zeff life in danger, which was only thing that forced Sanji to endure further humiliation from his nazi power ranger siblings, was handwaved by Reiju's "Nobody actually cares lol. And those cuffs are fake". We can debate, whether or not, Pedro is alive, but we all know, those threats won't ever be realized.
                                                          Or everything Smoothie.
                                                          Or Compote, who is even worse.
                                                          Because not cutting those corners would take too much time, and would make arc too complicated.
                                                          That's what I meant.

                                                          Many of the things you're calling plot armor probably are not, although I can't pinpoint what exactly you're talking about. Plot armor is a trope for the lack of logical explanation to the survival of a character, and that's not the case here for all I know. The Strawhats overcame every danger in their way thanks to their own merit, luck and sacrifices, factors completely acceptable in any given story, even more so in a ludic fiction that's meant to have the tone of a Legend/Fantasy. What seems to be intriguing you is the fact that fiction is written with a purpose, so it is supposed to be manipulated in order to reach its conclusion, its message, to be exciting, to tell something. It's not a random game of probabilty.

                                                          Going to the next subject, Katakuri didn't need to "suddenly become a honorable guy" to ease Luffy's life when he could be easily written to be beaten in a more conventional way. Just think about it, Katakuri was invented yesterday, without any previous reference to his character, with no parameter in power level. Of course, he didn't even need to be that strong to be convincing as a Sweet Commander. Oda didn't put himself into a trap he couldn't deal with. So yes, Katakuri's character was just meant to go through that development for the sake of an engaging story, so we could read a different fight with a new kind of antagonist instead of the same thing as ever. What's the problem with a villain being such a person?

                                                          Once again, I repeat that I'm not even praising Oda's execution right now as flawless, since he does have his shortcomings as a writer. In fact, some of your concerns are very plausible (especially if they're not addressed in the future). However, I can't agree with this contemporary mentality of deconstructing art into tropes/devices without understanding what they mean and without understanding that they are essential to storytelling. There's no problem in cutting corners, for example. That's not the "safe route", but the "organized route", especially when a given storyline has so much fat for reasons of worldbuilding/characterization while the blueprint demands only specific events with specific characters.

                                                          Anyway, your harshness intrigues me. As you've said, you're disillusioned, so I guess this is generating a negative bias in your reading, to the point that I wonder if your mind will be open to let anything delight you.

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                                                            Sirxxx @theackwardstation
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                                                            No, I pretty much agree with that.
                                                            Well, those scenes may be emotional and impactful, but, the point is: they made me (not just me,I guess) want and wait that triumphant moment for Sanji even more. It was his darkest night, and it looked like at any moment he will rise from that lukewarm post-ts pit, through battle, cooking, telling Germa to stick it for real, whatever. Aaaaaand it kind of didn't happen, so all those scenes missed the target in the end.
                                                            That's just kinda dissapointing. Like alternate version of EL, where Usopp just sticks around but doesn't apologize at the end. No pay-off. No catharsis.

                                                            @theackwardstation:

                                                            I was very underwhelmed by chapter 856, when Sanji reunited with Luffy, so that pay off didn't come for me too.

                                                            A continuous lack of payoff is right! Sanji has not once gotten that triumphant payoff to any of the plotlines that Oda set up for him. Hell, he couldn't even protect/avenge Cosette, when her beating violated one of his most basic principles.
                                                            –It was confirmed that he DOES have the super Germa genes, they just didn't manifest; and they still haven't
                                                            --Judge never appreciated Sanji; he still doesn't
                                                            --Sanji doesn't consider Judge his father, but he already didn't
                                                            --The story BRUTALLY set up the fact that his family considered and beat him for being weak; does not get a shining moment to prove himself strong to his family
                                                            --Everything Zeff-threat related; all of it
                                                            --His family had to be in his debt to survive. In return, they came back and put him doubly in their debt.
                                                            --Wanted to save his family, INSISTED they save his family; left his family behind to die (if this was any other manga than One Piece)
                                                            --Beat his captain and traumatized his nakama; his reconciliation to both was extremely lackluster so far
                                                            --Had a plan to rescue a depleted Luffy from Cacao; it was a terrible plan that failed immediately
                                                            --Was supposed to make a cake that could do what no one else in the arc had been able to accomplish (not Bege, not Luffy, not starvation): Stop Big Mom; failed immediately
                                                            --Was supposed to experience character growth of some kind, but he seems like the exact same Sanji as before he created all this mess, since absolutely no one called him out on anything all arc, so I can't speak to a single way in which he has grown

                                                            If this same situation played out all over again right now, with another One Piece organization with massive influence, I honestly could not sit here and tell you all that Sanji would NOT run off and abandon his nakama AGAIN, and imprison himself into another intractable situation "to save them".

                                                            @sgamer82:

                                                            You say that like it's relevant. More seriously, this arc was never about Sanji's fighting prowess. We already knew he had that. This was Sanji's version of what Usopp went through in Enies Lobby. To quote a post I made on another board a while back:

                                                            Sanji's lack of payoff in this arc would be like if Usopp did not get his sniping scene and "This isn't Hell!" speech. The cause for concern is that if Enies Lobby were written now, he likely would not have…

                                                            Originally Posted by .access timeco.

                                                            He won't disobey if he dies, only if he dies when he dies!

                                                            Because the madness that is AP Forums chapter discussions must not perish from the earth

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                                                              MrBits @Sirxxx
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                                                              @Sirxxx:

                                                              –It was confirmed that he DOES have the super Germa genes, they just didn't manifest; and they still haven't
                                                              --Was supposed to make a cake that could stop Big Mom from destroying her territory and crew, thus indebting them all to the Strawhats they want to kill so much; whoops, Pudding got all the credit

                                                              Where did you get that part about Sanji having Germa genes? I'm pretty sure that flashback about his mother drinking the poison said otherwise.

                                                              The part about Big Mom being put in the Strawhat's debt was just fan expectation (albeit, a logical one). It was never mentioned in the manga.

                                                              Originally Posted by MrBits

                                                              Place your bets. Is [AlphaMale/AlphaBro, an obvious ban evader] going to get banned again today, tomorrow, or in a week?

                                                              Originally Posted by AlphaBro

                                                              okay let's bet . Would love to see your losing face next week !

                                                              An actual bet and conversation on the Chapter 905 thread, literally an hour before he got banned again.

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                                                                Sirxxx @MrBits
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                                                                @MrBits:

                                                                Where did you get that part about Sanji having Germa genes? I'm pretty sure that flashback about his mother drinking the poison said otherwise.

                                                                The part about Big Mom being put in the Strawhat's debt was just fan expectation (albeit, a logical one). It was never mentioned in the manga.

                                                                Stated here:

                                                                –The narrative did clearly establish many times that the BMP were extra concerned of what would happen to their crew and country if they were unable to create a cake to stop Big Mom's destruction. The story set that up as a plot thread, Oda just chose to close it without giving Sanji any payoff, and I don't know why! It was. Right. There!

                                                                Originally Posted by .access timeco.

                                                                He won't disobey if he dies, only if he dies when he dies!

                                                                Because the madness that is AP Forums chapter discussions must not perish from the earth

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                                                                  MrBits @Sirxxx
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                                                                  Stated here:http://i66.tinypic.com/whd4bt.png

                                                                  And literally two panels latter the science guy says that "Sanji is nothing but a human." And twelve chapters after that, we get that mini-flashback about Sora drinking a poison/medicine to keep him as a regular human.

                                                                  Originally Posted by MrBits

                                                                  Place your bets. Is [AlphaMale/AlphaBro, an obvious ban evader] going to get banned again today, tomorrow, or in a week?

                                                                  Originally Posted by AlphaBro

                                                                  okay let's bet . Would love to see your losing face next week !

                                                                  An actual bet and conversation on the Chapter 905 thread, literally an hour before he got banned again.

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                                                                    Sirxxx @MrBits
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                                                                    And literally two panels latter the science guy says that "Sanji is nothing but a human." And twelve chapters after that, we get that mini-flashback about Sora drinking a poison/medicine to keep him as a regular human.

                                                                    I was not arguing that Sanji is not a regular human. Sora drank the medicine, and from the story it seems that it really did shut down all modifications that the gene editing should've accomplished. I was making the point that the narrative specifically states that Sanji has the genes for it, Oda just decided to close that plot thread without giving Sanji any payoff. Again, it was right there.

                                                                    Originally Posted by .access timeco.

                                                                    He won't disobey if he dies, only if he dies when he dies!

                                                                    Because the madness that is AP Forums chapter discussions must not perish from the earth

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                                                                      Cease
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                                                                      Is it this week or next week, where we won't have Chapter 903?

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                                                                        Tonoloto @Bigivel
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                                                                        For me this arc is rather strange. It has a ton of the highest points ever seen in the series, but it has also a ton of the biggest lows seen.

                                                                        For me, the biggest low in the series is watching Luffy escape while leaving behind one of his crewmembers in a really dire situation

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                                                                          KageKageKing @Cease
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                                                                          @Cease:

                                                                          Is it this week or next week, where we won't have Chapter 903?

                                                                          This week. But expect early spoilers this week if you want tol

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                                                                            Kdom @Cease
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                                                                            @Cease:

                                                                            Is it this week or next week, where we won't have Chapter 903?

                                                                            We don't know

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                                                                              Blissed @Sirxxx
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                                                                              @Sirxxx:

                                                                              I was not arguing that Sanji is not a regular human. Sora drank the medicine, and from the story it seems that it really did shut down all modifications that the gene editing should've accomplished. I was making the point that the narrative specifically states that Sanji has the genes for it, Oda just decided to close that plot thread without giving Sanji any payoff. Again, it was right there.

                                                                              So you wanted him to develop powers? Not sure I follow.

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                                                                                O baba @Sirxxx
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                                                                                @Sirxxx:

                                                                                I was not arguing that Sanji is not a regular human. Sora drank the medicine, and from the story it seems that it really did shut down all modifications that the gene editing should've accomplished. I was making the point that the narrative specifically states that Sanji has the genes for it, Oda just decided to close that plot thread without giving Sanji any payoff. Again, it was right there.

                                                                                can you just admit you were wrong ???

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                                                                                      @Blissed:

                                                                                      So you wanted him to develop powers? Not sure I follow.

                                                                                      @O:

                                                                                      can you just admit you were wrong ???

                                                                                      Oh jesus Christ…

                                                                                      My original point/post was all of the POTENTIAL set-ups that the story established in this arc surrounding Sanji, and how few of them paid off. That included his lineage. I was reminded by MrBits that Sanji's mother took a medicine to counteract the gene editing. I agreed the story told us this; I went on to say that IF Oda had wanted to use the gene-editing as a means to give Sanji a power-up, he still could have via [insert convenient explanation here]. Since Oda did not decide to do this, I consider it another story set-up concerning Sanji that was not paid off in any significant way. There's nothing to be right or wrong about. The guy posted that Sanji's mother drank something that prevented his Germa genes from expressing themselves (at least concerning his emotions). I agree with that.

                                                                                      Don't put in argument in my post that I didn't make, then accuse me of not owning up to it, please.

                                                                                      Originally Posted by .access timeco.

                                                                                      He won't disobey if he dies, only if he dies when he dies!

                                                                                      Because the madness that is AP Forums chapter discussions must not perish from the earth

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                                                                                        Blissed @Sirxxx
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                                                                                        @Sirxxx:

                                                                                        Oh jesus Christ…

                                                                                        My original point/post was all of the POTENTIAL set-ups that the story established in this arc surrounding Sanji, and how few of them paid off. That included his lineage. I was reminded by MrBits that Sanji's mother took a medicine to counteract the gene editing. I agreed the story told us this; I went on to say that IF Oda had wanted to use the gene-editing as a means to give Sanji a power-up, he still could have via [insert convenient explanation here]. Since Oda did not decide to do this, I consider it another story set-up concerning Sanji that was not paid off in any significant way. There's nothing to be right or wrong about. The guy posted that Sanji's mother drank something that prevented his Germa genes from expressing themselves (at least concerning his emotions). I agree with that.

                                                                                        Don't put in argument in my post that I didn't make, then accuse me of not owning up to it, please.

                                                                                        Not sure why you equated my post with his, was merely asking for further clarification.

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                                                                                          theackwardstation @Sirxxx
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                                                                                          @Sirxxx:

                                                                                          A continuous lack of payoff is right! Sanji has not once gotten that triumphant payoff to any of the plotlines that Oda set up for him. Hell, he couldn't even protect/avenge Cosette, when her beating violated one of his most basic principles.
                                                                                          –It was confirmed that he DOES have the super Germa genes, they just didn't manifest; and they still haven't
                                                                                          --Judge never appreciated Sanji; he still doesn't
                                                                                          --Sanji doesn't consider Judge his father, but he already didn't
                                                                                          --The story BRUTALLY set up the fact that his family considered and beat him for being weak; does not get a shining moment to prove himself strong to his family
                                                                                          --Everything Zeff-threat related; all of it
                                                                                          --His family had to be in his debt to survive. In return, they came back and put him doubly in their debt.
                                                                                          --Wanted to save his family, INSISTED they save his family; left his family behind to die (if this was any other manga than One Piece)
                                                                                          --Beat his captain and traumatized his nakama; his reconciliation to both was extremely lackluster so far
                                                                                          --Had a plan to rescue a depleted Luffy from Cacao; it was a terrible plan that failed immediately
                                                                                          --Was supposed to make a cake that could do what no one else in the arc had been able to accomplish (not Bege, not Luffy, not starvation): Stop Big Mom; failed immediately
                                                                                          --Was supposed to experience character growth of some kind, but he seems like the exact same Sanji as before he created all this mess, since absolutely no one called him out on anything all arc, so I can't speak to a single way in which he has grown

                                                                                          If this same situation played out all over again right now, with another One Piece organization with massive influence, I honestly could not sit here and tell you all that Sanji would NOT run off and abandon his nakama AGAIN, and imprison himself into another intractable situation "to save them".

                                                                                          Many of these decisions seem very delibarate and many of them I appreciate, honestly. Every closure related to the Vinsmokes (most of your list) was handled with maturity by Oda, in my opinion, something that I respect for this ackward situation. Btw, the Germa staying behind while the Strawhats do nothing was set up back in chapter 870, when Sanji accepted their resolve to do as they want.

                                                                                          Overall, the majority of your complaints are against Oda's decisions for the character, not the execution itself. What I mean is: it's not that "the pay offs didn't get you", but some of them just weren't supposed to be climatic in the first place. While I respect your feelings, I'm invested in how these decisions made the whole arc very organic and brought such a bittersweet finale. Overall, Sanji is taking the burden for the fact that the Strawhats were powerless against the BMP, which means they left this arc without accomplishing much. As for Sanji's feats, he saved his family back in the wedding, settled their differences, got the girl (Pudding) and baked a cake that did enough to save the crew against a Yonkou that was supposed to be up at the end of the arc for this creepy finale.

                                                                                          Execution-wise, I was mostly disappointed by chapter 856 because it failed to be this big cathartic moment to have me crying over such a reconciliation. However, while that chapter alone will never be really fulfilling to me, I'm really hopeful that Oda didn't put an end to this story and we'll see more of Sanji having to conquer his way back to the crew.

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                                                                                            just randomly thrown in
                                                                                            Katakuri is the second son
                                                                                            brulee is the 8th daughter

                                                                                            but is it just me or do they look like at most three years apart? does that make any sense?

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                                                                                              theackwardstation @fuzi11
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                                                                                              @fuzi11:

                                                                                              just randomly thrown in
                                                                                              Katakuri is the second son
                                                                                              brulee is the 8th daughter

                                                                                              but is it just me or do they look like at most three years apart? does that make any sense?

                                                                                              It's hard to know the difference in age of the children, since many of them are twins and we don't know the order between sons and daughters.

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                                                                                                AmalaNetwork @theackwardstation
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                                                                                                @theackwardstation:

                                                                                                Anyway, your harshness intrigues me. As you've said, you're disillusioned, so I guess this is generating a negative bias in your reading, to the point that I wonder if your mind will be open to let anything delight you.

                                                                                                Sorry, I tend to hyperbolize things during the debate. I'll turn that down a bit.
                                                                                                Actually, there are many things in this arc, that I liked. It's just other things have some weird aftertaste. And I said said before, I will be very glad and eat my words, if those plot points will have substantial consequences and resolve. But there is very high pobablility that they won't.

                                                                                                Plot armor is a trope for the lack of logical explanation to the survival of a character, and that's not the case here for all I know. The Strawhats overcame every danger in their way thanks to their own merit, luck and sacrifices, factors completely acceptable in any given story, even more so in a ludic fiction that's meant to have the tone of a Legend/Fantasy.

                                                                                                In this particular case, that is exactly what I'm talking about. There is no logical explanation. Logically, Strawhats should have been destroyed right there and then. Frenzied Linlin can't be an unstoppable country destroying monster and be nerfed to the point of not being able to break through defensive Chooper at the same time. When I read that chapter, I clearly saw all out-of-universe reasons why that sequence played exactly as it did. It is plot armor, and it does ruin immersion a little.

                                                                                                What seems to be intriguing you is the fact that fiction is written with a purpose, so it is supposed to be manipulated in order to reach its conclusion, its message, to be exciting, to tell something.

                                                                                                However, I can't agree with this contemporary mentality of deconstructing art into tropes/devices without understanding what they mean and without understanding that they are essential to storytelling.

                                                                                                It shouldn't be that unsubtle. I can write like this and get away with it. When author with 20+ years of experience does that, questions are asked. I'm not bashing Oda, but he should be better at hiding inner workings of his story. I know he is better than this. But I also know that any fictional story constantly evolves during the process of realization, and it's hard to choose best ideas. Especially if you are always under a deadline.

                                                                                                Katakuri's character was just meant to go through that development

                                                                                                Oh boy.

                                                                                                Chapter 902 Katakuri is not the same person, as chaper 873 Katakuri. Might as well call him Dogtooth, because he directly contradicts himself. Are you telling me that pragmatic guy, who said "we should destroy Luffy before he becomes a threat" turning into someone who is happy Luffy escaped, is a smooth and consistent character development? Only because Luffy didn't laugh at him? This guy, who apparently loves his siblings so much, he woved to never lie down on his back for their sake, develops a bro-crush on a person, who with his underlings helped to try and kill his mother, ripped his brother's arm off, sent other brother to hospital, beaten and kidnapped his favorite sister etc.

                                                                                                Btw, if he was this caring of an older brother, how in the world Pudding grew up so lonely and bitter? They have literally same issues. Katakuri couldn't find the time in 20 years to talk with his little sis? Does he only care about Brulee?

                                                                                                All in all, unless Luffy possess actual ability to passively brainwash people he interacts with, I will see it as clumsy characterisation.

                                                                                                M theackwardstation 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                                                                                                  MrBits @AmalaNetwork
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                                                                                                  @AmalaNetwork:

                                                                                                  Btw, if he was this caring of an older brother, how in the world Pudding grew up so lonely and bitter? They have literally same issues.

                                                                                                  Nope. The flashback in this chapter clearly stated that Kakakuri has no insecurities about his appearance. If someone taunted him he wouldn't care, he just hides his mouth to create an illusion of perfection.

                                                                                                  This post was dumb and so am I.

                                                                                                  Originally Posted by MrBits

                                                                                                  Place your bets. Is [AlphaMale/AlphaBro, an obvious ban evader] going to get banned again today, tomorrow, or in a week?

                                                                                                  Originally Posted by AlphaBro

                                                                                                  okay let's bet . Would love to see your losing face next week !

                                                                                                  An actual bet and conversation on the Chapter 905 thread, literally an hour before he got banned again.

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                                                                                                    AmalaNetwork @MrBits
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                                                                                                    @MrBits:

                                                                                                    Nope. The flashback in this chapter clearly stated that Kakakuri has no insecurities about his appearance. If someone taunted him he wouldn't care, he just hides his mouth to create an illusion of perfection.

                                                                                                    That makes it even worse, because it somehow stops him from saying "Screw those guys, there's nothing wrong with your eye". Sibling love works in mysterious ways.
                                                                                                    Also, if he has no insecurities, why is Luffy accepting him as imperfect even a plot point then?

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                                                                                                      Icefae @MrBits
                                                                                                      @MrBits last edited by
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                                                                                                      @MrBits:

                                                                                                      Kakakuri has no insecurities about his appearance.

                                                                                                      Literally what manga are you reading.

                                                                                                      I think the reason that Pudding and Katakuri didn't find solidarity their mutual torment is because of the tough facades they both put up to protect themselves from being hurt. What makes Brulee and Katakuri's moment in this chapter so special is specifically because it's such a rare occurrence in Totland.

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                                                                                                        MrBits
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                                                                                                        …Honestly I have no idea what I was thinking. I kind of just hyperfocused on his opening line in the flashback and didn't follow through to the end.

                                                                                                        Still, their insecurities have different nuances behind them. Pudding saw her eye as a sign that she was a "hideous monster," and Katakuri saw his mouth as a "weakness." They're different enough that I can understand why they wouldn't bond over it.

                                                                                                        Originally Posted by MrBits

                                                                                                        Place your bets. Is [AlphaMale/AlphaBro, an obvious ban evader] going to get banned again today, tomorrow, or in a week?

                                                                                                        Originally Posted by AlphaBro

                                                                                                        okay let's bet . Would love to see your losing face next week !

                                                                                                        An actual bet and conversation on the Chapter 905 thread, literally an hour before he got banned again.

                                                                                                        A 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0

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