The Whole Cake Island Whole Arc Discussion Thread - Reviews for Totland

[theackwardstation]

@Icefae:

theackwardstation bullying me in the chapter threads ;_;

Hahahaha sorry Icefae, I hope my 'bullying' is polite, just asking you to give more insight into your usual fierceness. You see, I like your review here, very thoughtful.

[Kdom]

I think that I could write word for word what Kylor said here :
@Kylor:

The arc also does that whole post-timeskip thing where he has too many threads going on at the same time and some of them are bound to be more interesting than the others and waiting out the lesser ones to get back into the scenes with more investment can make the arc a huge chore for the reader, and the constant breaks don't help that at all, even if the reason for them is understandable. It also doesn't help that, even in the best parts, it feels a bit watered down because Oda doesn't have the freedom to sit in one moment for longer than a freaking page, again a consequence of how many things there are to get to and how thin one can stretch the reader's patience, but having everything play out in quick vignettes rather than having any actual scenes leaves one lacking in the long term. The wedding cake business, for example, could have been much better on its own, but when it frequently cuts to unrelated material, runs over the course of a year, and then is resolved in a way that's too fast for its own buildup, it leaves us feeling stuffed but not satisfied. But I digress, as this is leading to more a complaint with how One Piece is these days, and not anything specific to this arc. What really needs to stop, though, is cliffhangers that seem insurmountable and imposing, followed by a two week wait, only to resolve in an easy answer in the first few pages of the next chapter. That's called cheating.

But as he said this will be the rule from now so it is useless to get annoyed by it anymore (I still don't understand what was the necessity of introducing a character like Flanbe though)

Otherwise for me the weakest point of the arc was the development of Sanji character. Having one of the East blue crewmember which had to pretend to quit the crew and fight against his captain had was out of place in the story at that point in time. And don't even try to tell me that Sanji had no choice because of this and that, it's a waste of your time : It should never had happened ! I also think the flashback was not that great (Big Mum one is much better). If you add to that, the fact that Sanji didn't really had something worse remembering in the future, I'm not really happy as a Sanji fan.

That say, the world was beautiful, the big mum family (though to big) has great characters. Big Mum herself is a great monster. I agree that the open end of the arc is interesting though Jinbe not joining is hard to swallow.

Finally, another minus point could be the fact that Mum got her devil fruit power by cannibalism. After the "respawn from the nearest fruit" from Punk Hazard, I'm really worried on the devil fruit explanations yet to come

So yeah, I'm in the middle. The arc was definitively better than Dressrosa but I'm happy we can move on.

[theackwardstation]

@Kdom:

But as he said this will be the rule from now so it is useless to get annoyed by it anymore (I still don't understand what was the necessity of introducing a character like Flanbe though)

Flampé is there as a plot device to trigger Katakuri's liberation from his personal shackles, since she brings the context in which Katakuri makes the choice that defines his narrative development, once again revealing his true self publicly and living for his own passions. She also gives us some insight into the Charlotte family.

[Kaworu]

This is my first review of this arc, with only having read it weekly, so like anyone in that position my memory of the arc will be murky. Once I re-read it (which I've already started, this break waiting for Reverie has been pure torture) I'll post a more detailed review.

• I enjoyed the Charlotte crew's designs a lot, and I really came around to liking them as a crew when originally some of them I was rather meh about, for instance Oven and Brulee. Oven's pure ruthlessness and effectiveness really made me enjoy him in the same way that I like Akainu, and Brulee got some surprise depth in the final chapter, which did wonders for her character for a large amount of fans.

• The weakest part of the arc for me was Sanji's flashback. Not even totally sure why, I just found it dull. I think that's almost solely because of Judge, whose design I just… really dislike lol. I will be glad not to have to see his ugly mug for a long time, and then hopefully only sparingly. Also I wanted a lot more done with Sora.

• On wracking my brain and remembering, this is the most emotional arc of the New World, and my lord, how sorely needed. Emotion is a huge hook point for One Piece, and I feel it just hadn't (not hasn't, now, thanks to WCI) been delivering the same emotional gutpunches. There was something always off in post-timeskip for me, and that was that emotional drama seemed to be taking a large backseat. With Whole Cake Island, I can finally say that odd feeling of mine is dispelled. Just the Sanji empty cigarette flick alone is just such a juicy moment of despair.

• The pacing for me post-wedding left much to be desired, particularly when the "WEEEEEEEEEEEEED" chase began. I really do truly feel it's because Oda was trying to end around 900, and this arc just wasn't meant for that.

• Katakuri was a major MAJOR highlight of the arc for me. He's an easy top 3 fight of the series now, and I'm fairly sure that I personally am putting him at the #1 spot (due to some transcendental moments like "You're looking pretty far into the future…!!!") But yeah. A highly precise, effective, logical, honorable man who just gets shit done. It's hard not to love these types of characters, they go so far in making the villains look competent and like a threat. When he gets exposed as some donut-loving freak, that just adds classic One Piece charm to his character, and that's an awesome reveal on its own, similar in feel to Duval's face reveal. And then his character gets improved again when he commits honorable spear-puku to level himself with Luffy, and again when more depth is added to him in the final chapter of Whole Cake Island. Just an all-around incredible antagonist.

• Wedding was an awesome classy-event-goes-off-the-rails series of events.

• Chapter 902 being a 10/10 chapter does so many wonders for the arc, especially after the lackluster 901. It's such a neat, full of depth wrap-up, and it delivered not one, not two, but THREE hard-hitting emotional gutpunches in one chapter. That's rare even for early One Piece. Chapter 902 is one of the absolute best chapters in the entire series.

• Big Mom was the threat she needed to be. Very dynamic interesting panels of her when she's involved, shows you how the weight of a Yonkou is supposed to feel: heavy.

• The way the arc ended purposely with a lot of hanging threads to be concluded in likely Elbaf is refreshing. It ends on a somber, somewhat incomplete note. The arc is not meant to be totally self-contained. It's Part 1, obvs. So it's another thing that dispels the misguided notion that some distant or casual reader will have that "All One Piece arcs are the same, how are people not tired of this formula yet!?" Well you've been wrong since Sabaody, but you're even more wrong here, now.

I give the arc an 8.2, and just like Kylor I wish I could vote above Good but below Amazing. Katakuri fight I give a 9.8.

[Kdom]

@theackwardstation:

Flampé is there as a plot device to trigger Katakuri's liberation from his personal shackles, since she brings the context in which Katakuri makes the choice that defines his narrative development, once again revealing his true self publicly and living for his own passions. She also gives us some insight into the Charlotte family.

Yeah and she sucks both as a plot device and as a character. So she was unnecessary

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

@Kaworu:

This is my first review of this arc, with only having read it weekly, so like anyone in that position my memory of the arc will be murky. Once I re-read it (which I've already started, this break waiting for Reverie has been pure torture) I'll post a more detailed review.

• I enjoyed the Charlotte crew's designs a lot, and I really came around to liking them as a crew when originally some of them I was rather meh about, for instance Oven and Brulee. Oven's pure ruthlessness and effectiveness really made me enjoy him in the same way that I like Akainu, and Brulee got some surprise depth in the final chapter, which did wonders for her character for a large amount of fans.

• The weakest part of the arc for me was Sanji's flashback. Not even totally sure why, I just found it dull. I think that's almost solely because of Judge, whose design I just… really dislike lol. I will be glad not to have to see his ugly mug for a long time, and then hopefully only sparingly. Also I wanted a lot more done with Sora.

• On wracking my brain and remembering, this is the most emotional arc of the New World, and my lord, how sorely needed. Emotion is a huge hook point for One Piece, and I feel it just hadn't (not hasn't, now, thanks to WCI) been delivering the same emotional gutpunches. There was something always off in post-timeskip for me, and that was that emotional drama seemed to be taking a large backseat. With Whole Cake Island, I can finally say that odd feeling of mine is dispelled. Just the Sanji empty cigarette flick alone is just such a juicy moment of despair.

• The pacing for me post-wedding left much to be desired, particularly when the "WEEEEEEEEEEEEED" chase began. I really do truly feel it's because Oda was trying to end around 900, and this arc just wasn't meant for that.

• Katakuri was a major MAJOR highlight of the arc for me. He's an easy top 3 fight of the series now, and I'm fairly sure that I personally am putting him at the #1 spot (due to some transcendental moments like "You're looking pretty far into the future…!!!") But yeah. A highly precise, effective, logical, honorable man who just gets shit done. It's hard not to love these types of characters, they go so far in making the villains look competent and like a threat. When he gets exposed as some donut-loving freak, that just adds classic One Piece charm to his character, and that's an awesome reveal on its own, similar in feel to Duval's face reveal. And then his character gets improved again when he commits honorable spear-puku to level himself with Luffy, and again when more depth is added to him in the final chapter of Whole Cake Island. Just an all-around incredible antagonist.

• Wedding was an awesome classy-event-goes-off-the-rails series of events.

• Chapter 902 being a 10/10 chapter does so many wonders for the arc, especially after the lackluster 901. It's such a neat, full of depth wrap-up, and it delivered not one, not two, but THREE hard-hitting emotional gutpunches in one chapter. That's rare even for early One Piece. Chapter 902 is one of the absolute best chapters in the entire series.

• Big Mom was the threat she needed to be. Very dynamic interesting panels of her when she's involved, shows you how the weight of a Yonkou is supposed to feel: heavy.

• The way the arc ended purposely with a lot of hanging threads to be concluded in likely Elbaf is refreshing. It ends on a somber, somewhat incomplete note. The arc is not meant to be totally self-contained. It's Part 1, obvs. So it's another thing that dispels the misguided notion that some distant or casual reader will have that "All One Piece arcs are the same, how are people not tired of this formula yet!?" Well you've been wrong since Sabaody, but you're even more wrong here, now.

I give the arc an 8.2, and just like Kylor I wish I could vote above Good but below Amazing. Katakuri fight I give a 9.8.

How do split up the the lead up to sanji's rejoining 829-856, the wedding 857-873 and post wedding scores 874-902?

[Kaworu]

@Long:

How do you split up the lead up to sanji's rejoining 829-856, the wedding 857-873 and post wedding scores 874-902?

I'd have to re-read, I did not realize the wedding was that many chapters o_O! Shows just how foggy memory can get. I'll give 829-856 a 7.5, the wedding seriously a ? 'cause I did not realize it went on for about 20 chapters, and 874-902 an 8, with serious points knocked off for pacing and serious points added for the Katakuri fight and 902.

[Law-ya]

The Good:

• I was happily surprised that Big Mom and Luffy did not end up on happy terms (I was part of the few who were predicting 'amicable' terms for multiple reasons).

• Katakuri and Brulee's relation (or generally the camaraderie between some of the siblings despite BM's influence)

• The strawhat team fight was truly a highlight for me

• Luffy's assertiveness as a captain

The Bad:

• Everything tied with Sanji was just so underwhelming and unfinished. He had absolutely no agency in an arc that he was heavily tied to. The cake was underwhelming and the vinsmokes lacked resolution. I'm not even asking for an epic 1v1 Sanji fight but for him to have done something more concrete than creating a sauce for a cake that stalled her for an hour or so. The whole thing wasn't even his idea.

These are the stuff off the top of my head. I'm sure i can think of more if I sit at it but here it is I guess.

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

@Kaworu:

I'd have to re-read, I did not realize the wedding was that many chapters o_O! Shows just how foggy memory can get. I'll give 829-856 a 7.5, the wedding seriously a ? 'cause I did not realize it went on for about 20 chapters, and 874-902 an 8, with serious points knocked off for pacing and serious points added for the Katakuri fight and 902.

Technically it only started at 861 but I grouped the capone meet up and intro with it

[Coruscation]

@theackwardstation:

Hi, Coruscation, great review overall, but I'd like to discuss this particular point.

Starting by your challenge, I'd describe Smoothie as arrogant and sadistic (primarily by the way she likes to abuse people with her powers). She's also clearly afraid of her mother (as shown in two instances) and maybe it'll become a joke that she's lazy, lol. Her quirk is how she uses her powers in very disturbing ways. That said, I agree with you (and everyone else) that Smoothie was not an interesting character, although I like her design. Above all, she didn't do anything relevant, as we know.

However, I absolutely disagree that Smoothie is proof that something was wrong with how Oda planned this arc, but rather the opposite. Her role being so undervalued in this particular storyline is only proof that Oda is very conscious of the power of a Sweet Commander. He can't let Smoothie have enough space to do stuff without facing a huge problem: the Strawhats are not powerful enough to deal with her. So there are two options: (a) Smoothie would be obliged to underperform in a circunstance where there's no excuse for such or (b) the Strawhats would have to be captured by her (not an option, really).

The dilemma is as follows: Smoothie must exist, because a Yonkou must have at least a third commander, but this third commander can't be allowed to interfere too much, because (s)he's too powerful for the protagonists (aside Luffy). And this dilemma is very noticeable in the way Oda has written a lot of moments in the last section of this arc. For example, when the Strawhats were surrounded by two fleets and Sulong Carrot had to do her stuff, Oda put Daifuku on the front and Smoothie on the back, because he couldn't make Carrot jump into Smoothie's fleet. That'd be mission impossible for Carrot (the end of the line for the Strawhats), otherwise a Sweet Commander would be completely subpar in strenght compared to the others (and people would think she's even lamer).

To sum it up, I can't blame Oda for his decision to underutilize Smoothie, since it was only natural given the circunstances. Sure, there're reasons to be upset with her character, but I wouldn't dismiss the construction of the plot for this reason. At the end of the day, we should understand that there's going to be a Part 2 against Big Mom and that's when Smoothie will get her time to shine, hopefully.

I should have disallowed "arrogant" since it's not so much a character trait of One Piece villains as it's hardwired into their DNA. Every single one of them is. But that's my bad, so you got me. She's arrogant. That's the extent of her character. I'm not sure you can really call her sadistic, but if you go with that then it means she has another generic villain trait that's forgettable enough you could miss its existence.

The rest: yeah, but… like... that is the disappointing writing I'm talking about. Or at least a part of it. There's no automatic correlation between a character being kept out of the action for plot convenience and them being a boring dullard with no personality. Those are two entirely separate things. Characters with less screen time and plot presence have been far more interesting and memorable in this series.

But as for keeping her out of the action, I didn't think it was done in a convincing way and nor do I agree it was a necessity in the way you've said. For example: the Germa could've arrived back on the scene much earlier than they did and she could have gone up against all of them by herself, having the advantage over them at full power and in their home territory as a true display of the terror of a Yonkou elite. It would've spared us the Germa's confusing, tone deaf rescue at the end of the arc while giving two groups that needed more to do, more to do. That's just my quickfix too.

As for the "There's going to be a Round 2 with the BM pirates, and all of this will be fine" notion… it's not something I can seriously take into account at this point in time. It's fine that Big Mom's own defeat will have to wait, but Big Mom was already fine in this arc whereas Smoothie wasn't. If such a thing happens it's likely hundreds of chapters away at the pace we're going, and there's absolutely no guarantee Smoothie that will be expanded upon and made an interesting character at that time. Even if she is, it still won't change how underwhelming and forgettable she was in this arc. It's not something you can salvage by adding something else later. The damage is done, we can only hope if she returns the same mistake won't be made again.

[Icefae]

I gotta just whine more about the Vinsmokes. I really do think I would have loved the arc had it not been for them. Frankly it would have been nice had the Sanji flashback not existed at all, or at the very least been toned down in its severity.

As we've said, Judge and the Vinsmokes were built out as disturbing as hell Ramsay Bolton-esque villains. I actually loved this element at first because it was a great development for Sanji. Others would say that it was poor writing that Sanji defected from the Straw Hats but that flashback made it very clear that, similar to Robin's trauma surrounding the Buster Call in Water 7, he was acting out of a fear that was incredibly dark but relatable. The message was clear that Sanji's love of women extended beyond just what he was taught by Zeff, but also way back to his brothers and fathers beating and abusing him for years whereas Reiju and his mother especially were sources of comfort and validation. I thought that it was a bold move on Oda's behalf to explore Sanji's "misandry", overall distrust of men, and perhaps his unhealthy obsession with needing validation from women. I was literally declaring to people that One Piece had reached its absolute highest point with that flashback and the direction I thought the story was headed. I seriously thought that we were going to explore how Sanji's trauma had affected him, and this arc (the year of Sanji), would have been him confronting the demons of his past. I had even theorized that he would actually have to fight a woman in this arc as the ultimate character test. The scene with him trying to light the cigarette in the rain is one of my favorite chapters ever and easily in my top 5 panels ever.

So like… imagine my dismay when Sanji doesn't even confront his past or address his trauma in any believable way. He just runs back to Luffy and that entire subplot is dropped entirely. And for the rest of the arc, the Vinsmokes are portrayed as cool and heroic. I can't help but feel like it would have been better if it was just Sanji's father that cast him away but everything with Cosette and the treatment of Sanji's mother were cut. It helped to make Sanji's fear believable, but it was even weirder that he seemed to just be over it even though he's like 21 years old and probably isn't popping any anxiety pills or antidepressants (although he is a chain smoker). And the Vinsmokes torturing Sanji as a kid and then again as an adult only to like... turn up and be depicted as these heroes who save the day is just fucking like. God what? What the fuck? Just truly what the fuck.

[Kaworu]

@Icefae:

I gotta just whine more about the Vinsmokes. I really do think I would have loved the arc had it not been for them. Frankly it would have been nice had the Sanji flashback not existed at all, or at the very least been toned down in its severity.

As we've said, Judge and the Vinsmokes were built out as disturbing as hell Ramsay Bolton-esque villains. I actually loved this element at first because it was a great development for Sanji. Others would say that it was poor writing that Sanji defected from the Straw Hats but that flashback made it very clear that, similar to Robin's trauma surrounding the Buster Call in Water 7, he was acting out of a fear that was incredibly dark but relatable. The message was clear that Sanji's love of women extended beyond just what he was taught by Zeff, but also way back to his brothers and fathers beating and abusing him for years whereas Reiju and his mother especially were sources of comfort and validation. I thought that it was a bold move on Oda's behalf to explore Sanji's "misandry", overall distrust of men, and perhaps his unhealthy obsession with needing validation from women. I was literally declaring to people that One Piece had reached its absolute highest point with that flashback and the direction I thought the story was headed. I seriously thought that we were going to explore how Sanji's trauma had affected him, and this arc (the year of Sanji), would have been him confronting the demons of his past. I had even theorized that he would actually have to fight a woman in this arc as the ultimate character test. The scene with him trying to light the cigarette in the rain is one of my favorite chapters ever and easily in my top 5 panels ever.

So like… imagine my dismay when Sanji doesn't even confront his past or address his trauma in any believable way. He just runs back to Luffy and that entire subplot is dropped entirely. And for the rest of the arc, the Vinsmokes are portrayed as cool and heroic. I can't help but feel like it would have been better if it was just Sanji's father that cast him away but everything with Cosette and the treatment of Sanji's mother were cut. It helped to make Sanji's fear believable, but it was even weirder that he seemed to just be over it even though he's like 21 years old and probably isn't popping any anxiety pills or antidepressants (although he is a chain smoker). And the Vinsmokes torturing Sanji as a kid and then again as an adult only to like... turn up and be depicted as these heroes who save the day is just fucking like. God what? What the fuck? Just truly what the fuck.

I agree entirely with this post, Germa's the weakest part of the arc. Take them out and up the pacing speed and give Sanji a better defining character moment and I'd give it a 9+.

I think Oda was like, well wait, these characters that are abusive as hell are in superhero outfits. I HAVE to give them heroic moments. And that tripped him up and gave us this weird… non-fitting duality that is Germa.

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

@Kaworu:

I agree entirely with this post, Germa's the weakest part of the arc. Take them out and up the pacing speed and give Sanji a better defining character moment and I'd give it a 9+.

I think Oda was like, well wait, these characters that are abusive as hell are in superhero outfits. I HAVE to give them heroic moments. And that tripped him up and gave us this weird… non-fitting duality that is Germa.

You mean characters that are assholes but we find out it's not their fault because their dad literally made them that way

[Coruscation]

@Icefae:

I gotta just whine more about the Vinsmokes. I really do think I would have loved the arc had it not been for them. Frankly it would have been nice had the Sanji flashback not existed at all, or at the very least been toned down in its severity.

As we've said, Judge and the Vinsmokes were built out as disturbing as hell Ramsay Bolton-esque villains. I actually loved this element at first because it was a great development for Sanji. Others would say that it was poor writing that Sanji defected from the Straw Hats but that flashback made it very clear that, similar to Robin's trauma surrounding the Buster Call in Water 7, he was acting out of a fear that was incredibly dark but relatable. The message was clear that Sanji's love of women extended beyond just what he was taught by Zeff, but also way back to his brothers and fathers beating and abusing him for years whereas Reiju and his mother especially were sources of comfort and validation. I thought that it was a bold move on Oda's behalf to explore Sanji's "misandry", overall distrust of men, and perhaps his unhealthy obsession with needing validation from women. I was literally declaring to people that One Piece had reached its absolute highest point with that flashback and the direction I thought the story was headed. I seriously thought that we were going to explore how Sanji's trauma had affected him, and this arc (the year of Sanji), would have been him confronting the demons of his past. I had even theorized that he would actually have to fight a woman in this arc as the ultimate character test. The scene with him trying to light the cigarette in the rain is one of my favorite chapters ever and easily in my top 5 panels ever.

So like… imagine my dismay when Sanji doesn't even confront his past or address his trauma in any believable way. He just runs back to Luffy and that entire subplot is dropped entirely. And for the rest of the arc, the Vinsmokes are portrayed as cool and heroic. I can't help but feel like it would have been better if it was just Sanji's father that cast him away but everything with Cosette and the treatment of Sanji's mother were cut. It helped to make Sanji's fear believable, but it was even weirder that he seemed to just be over it even though he's like 21 years old and probably isn't popping any anxiety pills or antidepressants (although he is a chain smoker). And the Vinsmokes torturing Sanji as a kid and then again as an adult only to like... turn up and be depicted as these heroes who save the day is just fucking like. God what? What the fuck? Just truly what the fuck.

If I'm going to play devil's advocate for my least liked part of the arc for just a moment, I do have an idea as to why Oda might have chosen to play it his way rather than something more expected like what you suggest.

I think the idea is that Sanji has become too strong, strong-willed and distant from his past demons to really be that affected by them. Or really needing to "face" them. They still shaped him, but he's already far beyond them, ten times the man they are all combined. He looks on them with pure disdain, loudly declares he doesn't view them as his family and would prefer to never see them again, punishes them when they do something in his view absolutely unacceptable (hurting Cosette). He's only ever cowed by threats he could do nothing about.

These arrogant bullies are absolutely nothing compared to Sanji and he doesn't need to prove himself to them. He's long since left his demons behind. He doesn't care about them in the slightest, besides the little part of him that says "you can't just let your family die like that, no matter how horrible". He's completely secure in who he is and firmly rooted in both of his new families-by-bonds. There's not much to even say between them, other than a blunt - you're not my father, you're a vile piece of shit and I never want to see you again, get it?

…that's what I want to say. And I do think it's roughly what Oda intended, but I don't think the writing is consistent in showing it. The problem, just as you've identified, does lie with the incongruence in how the first part of the arc is shown and what ends up happening later. The Vinsmokes are given free rein to bully Sanji around, beat him up and insult him at their leisure. He's treated like absolute trash by these guys. Sanji isn't exactly broken to pieces by this but he hardly takes it perfectly either. And sure, I buy that. He's not a robot, it would be unreasonable to ask him to be totally unaffected by the memory of that childhood trauma coming to life again in front of him. But the problem still remains that the Vinsmokes never got true comeuppance for their vile behavior. The very polar opposite, as they end up being treated as flashy badass heroes, and even get to embarass Sanji as he fails miserably to get anywhere with the cornered Luffy in the most baffling scene of the entire arc to me.

It just isn't satisfying. It's so off course for this series. One Piece is in the category of stories that says the true defeat villains suffer is not on the physical but on the ideological and mental level, and I absolutely love it for that. I believe every villain that lost to the Straw Hats thus far have been defeated that way, been served a nice juicy helping of poetic justice. They got what was coming to them. All of them, except the Vinsmokes, who were evil in an unsettling and disturbing way and ended up being treated like superheroes. Even them straight up dying to Big Mom won't work as a resolution, if anything it'd feel like they got off too easy.

The more I think about the stuff with Sanji the more I think it… does work, maybe not 100% perfectly, but it does (except I still don't buy into him actually thinking Luffy & CO would give up on him - NO fucking way, no one will ever sell me on that). But the Vinsmokes themselves just don't work in the way One Piece characters almost always do.

[DemonX]

Hey Corus, good to see you're back again/still around/still reading OP.
I was really wondering what your take on the last few arcs would be. All in all, I'm a bit surprised you aren't more critical. But I've yet to read the arc in one go, so my criticism might mellow out a bit.

What did you think of Luffy's fight/powerup? And what about Jimbe still not joining the crew? Also, are you seriously saying you got crewmember vibes from Carrot?
(and off-topic: are you going to show up more often on TMF/NF?)

@Coruscation:

WHEW. That's already getting too long and it's getting too late here. But I couldn't stop myself from getting some of these thoughts out. I'm very glad this arc is finally over and I'm also glad that my first reread made me appreciate it more than I have weekly. There are still lingering disappointments and a total absence of that feeling the great arcs of One Piece used to give me (and I won't buy anyone trying to tell me that I'm just getting older and more critical or whatever, because that feeling was present in full force during the humble little arc called Zou; I know for a fact Oda hasn't "lost it", he's simply not managing to pull it all together during these massive arcs). It's been good to read the thoughts of other people and I'm hoping to see some more things that increase my appreciation of the arc further.

I still need to re-read the arc, but I have to agree with this sentiment. Since I'm not that drawn into the newer arcs I really wonder if I'm outgrowing a phase here or whatever, but I still love reading the older arcs. Maybe it's just nostalgia, or maybe…Oda can't manage as well anymore, as you've said. Which is a pity, because I really really want to like OP. It's the first manga I've actually bought FFS.

I could have used a "meh" option in the poll, between okay and bad. But I think I'd go with ok. Really need to read the arc in one go in order to be able to judge it properly.

[Icefae]

@Coruscation:

These arrogant bullies are absolutely nothing compared to Sanji and he doesn't need to prove himself to them. He's long since left his demons behind. He doesn't care about them in the slightest, besides the little part of him that says "you can't just let your family die like that, no matter how horrible". He's completely secure in who he is and firmly rooted in both of his new families-by-bonds. There's not much to even say between them, other than a blunt - you're not my father, you're a vile piece of shit and I never want to see you again, get it?

Yeah, I reread most of the arc yesterday. I really had to stretch my imagination that maybe since Sanji was so young as a Vinsmoke and the presence of Zeff as a father figure was so strong (actually much much stronger than the Baratie arc seemed to suggest - I mean, the implication is that Zeff undid years and years of abuse during a time when a young person is formulating their entire view of the world), maybe it was possible that Sanji wasn't completely thrown into survival mode at the sight of his father years down the road… despite the fact that Sanji himself seemed surprised to ever hear of his family again. And even that comes with the reluctant acceptance that the people in the One Piece world are insanely strong. I've wondered for a long time now if the issue is really just me... after all, I've got no problem with Sanji kicking a 20,000 lb Bananawani into the air in Arabasta, so why should I not believe that he also has the mental strength to get over childhood trauma that would deeply scar a normal person? I think that's the discord at the heart of the whole thing to me: The people in One Piece are superhuman but their capacity to be hurt and have their dreams crushed and cry and all of that is what makes them feel grounded and relatable. That's why I think that Oda might as well have not bothered to retcon Sanji's past to be so cartoonishly bad if he wasn't going to deliver on the human element of storytelling.

And y'know ultimately it's just my own desire to see these character's reflected in such a way. That's why Water 7 is my favorite arc. It's just totally consistent and juggles these great character arcs with Robin and Usopp and it's really the first arc that makes the protagonists feel like real people and suggests that their human flaws would be one of the hardest obstacles for them to overcome on the adventure. Mishandling such a crucial element of a character is a big deal to me. I really was rooting for Sanji as a character at the beginning of this arc but now he's just written in a way that is so outside the realm of reality that I don't think I could care less.

It's not really too late for those threads to be explored either, but I'm pretty sure the Vinsmokes role in the story, especially as it pertains to Sanji's past, is mostly done.

[Coruscation]

I think part of it is because it's Sanji, specifically, we're talking about. He's a part of the monster trio and that has never just been about who can hit things the hardest. Those three are the pillars of the crew mentally as well and are ready to carry the heaviest burdens. They have absolute confidence in themselves and you'll have to practically break them to make them waver even an inch, as exemplified by how much it took for Luffy to finally fall in the Marineford arc.

This part of his past was far enough behind and he had enough good in his life since then. If we compare it to Usopp, the sharpshooter was always struggling with his insecurities in this crew of monsters and was pushed over the edge. And if we compare it to Robin, the only true happiness in her life for the past 20 years had been few weeks she had spent with the Straw Hats. I think those two elements, combined - his high confidence and mental stability plus having many happy years on the Baratie even before joining the crew - make enough sense of Sanji's situation. People are just different too, it's not always predictable how someone will react and be affected.

But that still does call into question why even bother giving him such a cartoonishly and disturbingly evil family, just like you say. In the end the Vinsmokes barely mattered. They were a plot device to get Sanji in that situation where he felt pressured from all directions to resolve things peacefully for everyone, and it's from there that all the good character stuff stemmed. Not from his feuding with his old family. The best thing I can say about the whole Vinsmoke situation is that it gave some insights into where his ideals and interests come from (I love what you brought up about his childhood consisting entirely of abuse and bullying from his male siblings and father, while only his sister and mother brought him any solace - I'm not sure if Oda actually intended this, since it seems like it's the later scene with Zeff that led him down his path of chivalry.. but damn it, I'm going to force myself to believe it's fully intentional). But in the end it's not enough to justify the unpleasantness and lack of satisfying resolution the group brought to the arc.

@DemonX:

Hey Corus, good to see you're back again/still around/still reading OP.
I was really wondering what your take on the last few arcs would be. All in all, I'm a bit surprised you aren't more critical. But I've yet to read the arc in one go, so my criticism might mellow out a bit.

What did you think of Luffy's fight/powerup? And what about Jimbe still not joining the crew? Also, are you seriously saying you got crewmember vibes from Carrot?
(and off-topic: are you going to show up more often on TMF/NF?)

I still need to re-read the arc, but I have to agree with this sentiment. Since I'm not that drawn into the newer arcs I really wonder if I'm outgrowing a phase here or whatever, but I still love reading the older arcs. Maybe it's just nostalgia, or maybe…Oda can't manage as well anymore, as you've said. Which is a pity, because I really really want to like OP. It's the first manga I've actually bought FFS.

Well as I said this arc was the least engaged I've ever felt with One Piece. For the last few months I kept forgetting that a chapter was even coming out, which is a sad state of affairs for a series I have so much love for. But now I'm increasingly sure the weekly reading really hurt this arc. It's not as bad as it felt at times.

Made my peace. Pretty disappointing, it's clearly a part of an intentional downer ending so I'm accepting it for now but the payoff has to be good. Yeah she's a lot of fun. Very lively and emotive, fun interactions with every crewmember, amusing quirks, and fighting abilities that I could see being both entertaining and cool. I'm not sure I get actual joining vibes, I'm more so saying she was fantastic to have around as an arc ally that felt on par with an actual crewmember in terms of personality and interactions.

[Kaworu]

@Long:

You mean characters that are assholes but we find out it's not their fault because their dad literally made them that way

I mean yeah. People are molded by their environment. If society made someone into a murderer, there's pretty much no way I'd ever root for them despite why they were made that way. And I think we were supposed to root for the Vinsmokes at some point which I did not care to do. Though moreover I feel apathy towards Germa, except Baeju.

[DemonX]

@Coruscation:

Well as I said this arc was the least engaged I've ever felt with One Piece. For the last few months I kept forgetting that a chapter was even coming out, which is a sad state of affairs for a series I have so much love for. But now I'm increasingly sure the weekly reading really hurt this arc. It's not as bad as it felt at times.

Made my peace. Pretty disappointing, it's clearly a part of an intentional downer ending so I'm accepting it for now but the payoff has to be good. Yeah she's a lot of fun. Very lively and emotive, fun interactions with every crewmember, amusing quirks, and fighting abilities that I could see being both entertaining and cool. I'm not sure I get actual joining vibes, I'm more so saying she was fantastic to have around as an arc ally that felt on par with an actual crewmember in terms of personality and interactions.

I know the feeling…hopefully re-reading this arc will make me think of it a bit more positively. The way Sanji was handled was very lackluster and unsatisfying though. I doubt re-reading it one go is going to change that.

You made your peace with how Oda's handling fights nowadays? Yeah, I'm looking forward to the time the SHs are strong enough to hold their own against Yonkous/Commanders and there's no need for PiS and the like anymore.

As for Jimbei, I really hope we won't have to wait years to see him again. That was a real bummer tbh.

I didn't really warm up to her all that much, although I must recognize that her antics and interactions with the crew were quite fun. And I really wouldn't mind her becoming a crewmember (because we really need the last crewmember to join ASAP), but I don't really see her as a SH (and there are a few things speaking against her becoming one).

[theackwardstation]

This post is deleted!

[theackwardstation]

@Coruscation:

I should have disallowed "arrogant" since it's not so much a character trait of One Piece villains as it's hardwired into their DNA. Every single one of them is. But that's my bad, so you got me. She's arrogant. That's the extent of her character. I'm not sure you can really call her sadistic, but if you go with that then it means she has another generic villain trait that's forgettable enough you could miss its existence.

The rest: yeah, but… like... that is the disappointing writing I'm talking about. Or at least a part of it. There's no automatic correlation between a character being kept out of the action for plot convenience and them being a boring dullard with no personality. Those are two entirely separate things. Characters with less screen time and plot presence have been far more interesting and memorable in this series.

But as for keeping her out of the action, I didn't think it was done in a convincing way and nor do I agree it was a necessity in the way you've said. For example: the Germa could've arrived back on the scene much earlier than they did and she could have gone up against all of them by herself, having the advantage over them at full power and in their home territory as a true display of the terror of a Yonkou elite. It would've spared us the Germa's confusing, tone deaf rescue at the end of the arc while giving two groups that needed more to do, more to do. That's just my quickfix too.

As for the "There's going to be a Round 2 with the BM pirates, and all of this will be fine" notion… it's not something I can seriously take into account at this point in time. It's fine that Big Mom's own defeat will have to wait, but Big Mom was already fine in this arc whereas Smoothie wasn't. If such a thing happens it's likely hundreds of chapters away at the pace we're going, and there's absolutely no guarantee Smoothie that will be expanded upon and made an interesting character at that time. Even if she is, it still won't change how underwhelming and forgettable she was in this arc. It's not something you can salvage by adding something else later. The damage is done, we can only hope if she returns the same mistake won't be made again.

You sugest a nice alternative, but I see it happening like a one-panel-feat like her feats in the wedding, so not something we care about, because it's only exciting when a villain is really getting into the way of the main cast. The other thing I can say is that we shouldn't put her against the standard of a main villain of WCI, because she's not put as such narrative-wise. She's one of Big Mom's top fighters, but her role in this particular story is not that different from Amande or Daifuku, a background character with more visibility.

All things said, in my opinion, she's disappointing, but she's not upfront in the storyline to be a major problem.

[Coruscation]

I certainly disagree that confrontations are only entertaining when it's the villain against the main cast. Seems like an arbitrary statement to make. Skypiea had some tense struggles between two entirely different groups, the Shandians (who weren't even necessarily allies at the time) and Enel's priests, and they were good and satisfying for what they were. The Germa were antagonists given a lot of screentime in this arc, they're not some minor group, and they would have been better served in something resembling a proper showdown instead of getting spread of getting the occasional spread-out panel of performing one flashy feat each before sinking into the background again.

Smoothie has the same position (technically even one step higher) as Cracker. It's not a good excuse that she didn't have a greater role in the story because it's Oda who writes the story. The whole point of the criticism made against Smoothie is that he relegated her to such a boring state didn't give her a greater role. The narrative isn't some independent thing that Oda has to go along with, he makes it, and he shouldn't have had a top commander of Big Mom be so limp and lackluster for a massive 75 chapter arc.

I wouldn't really call her a major problem either, but like I said, never before in OP has such a big name been given such an underwhelming treatment in a primary arc. So it just sticks out to me like a sore thumb and is one of the things that contribute to the arc feeling "off" alongside stuff like Germa's treatment.

[theackwardstation]

I've never seen Sanji as this unshakable strong-willed character as Luffy and Zoro, although also being part of the Monster Trio. I'd even remeber that, back in Baratie, Zeff's speech to Sanji was all about how Luffy had this "spear" to go all out for his dreams while Sanji was too stuck in repaying his debt to Zeff instead of leaving to the sea in order to search the All Blue. During Zoro's fight against Mihawk, we're constantly shown that Sanji didn't understand the concept of dying for your dreams, claiming it was best to abandon your dreams intead of dying. However, at the same time, Sanji was always a dutiful man ready to fight to protect his friends, never shaking before doing the right thing. So what we find is this selfless person, ready to die for the others, but never for himself… something pretty close to the plot of WCI.

Given all that, his most intriguing feature is his absolute denial to go against any of his hard principles, like hitting a woman, fighting with his arms and anything related to his cook guidelines. This all comes back to Zeff, of course... and here we have the Vinsmokes. While I agree with Coruscation that Sanji is completely above his blood family, his background makes me recontextualize why he's so obsessed with the principles he's inhirited from Zeff. Sanji is in constant search for validation from his father figure, maybe because he was so much rejected by his biological father. In fact, when Zeff teaches Sanji that he shouldn't hit women because that's a "rule of the universe since before the dinossaurs", the most persuasive moment of that scene is that Zeff claims at the same time that Sanji is his son, so we get this picture of this perplexed kid happy to be acknowledged as such. Later in the story (chapter 870), when Sanji is arguing with Judge, we see how much of Sanji's decisions are meant to respect Zeff, because he can't live a life where he can't face that man.

Well, Sanji is a troubled person, that's what he is. I do hope we'll ever see closure to his character.

Regarding Germa 66, I appreciate how mature Sanji was to deal with the situation. I don't think the Vinsmokes were treated as heroes at the end of the day, since the disdain to their ideology/existance was finally concluded when Luffy funnily dismissed Judge's last inquiry in chapter 899. That's what we should take from it... there's this bad person who carries a mentality that we shouldn't care about.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Coruscation:

I certainly disagree that confrontations are only entertaining when it's the villain against the main cast. Seems like an arbitrary statement to make. Skypiea had some tense struggles between two entirely different groups, the Shandians (who weren't even necessarily allies at the time) and Enel's priests, and they were good and satisfying for what they were. The Germa were antagonists given a lot of screentime in this arc, they're not some minor group, and they would have been better served in something resembling a proper showdown instead of getting spread of getting the occasional spread-out panel of performing one flashy feat each before sinking into the background again.

Didn't mean about becoming an entertaining character, but fulfilling its role as a threat. A villain is ultimately an obstacle for the main character to reach its development/conclusion and Smoothie was never put in that position. Smoothie was only there to build Big Mom's crew, although I think Oda could have done much better in making her entertaining. However, about other past villains, I don't think Oda did such a great job with all of them. Since you mentioned Skypiea, I'd argue that the only Priest to have a full-fledged fight agains the Shandians (the position Smoothie would fit if her role was to fight the Vinsmokes) was Shura and he's not better than Smoothie from what I can remember, just a typical bad guy with no interesting traits (only a cool design) that ended up defeated by Wiper only to show Wiper's strong will to use the Reject Dial. For each arc, I can think of a henchman that was completely underwhelming as a character, with the exception of CP9.

[Icefae]

@theackwardstation:

Well, Sanji is a troubled person, that's what he is. I do hope we'll ever see closure to his character.

I loved the Pudding kiss scene but a part of me was secretly hoping that Pudding would request that Sanji stop smoking. I know that is a ridiculous want because Sanji's cigarette is such a core part of his character, but after Sanji's past was explored this arc and his value system laid bare, I just couldn't help but feel bad for him in as genuine a way as you would in a legitimate drama story. As sappy as it sounds, I would have taken Sanji quitting smoking as symbolic of him finally being self validated and caring for himself more. Not to mention that it would be genuinely beautiful for Pudding's request to be as selfless as that, and depict that Pudding was possibly the first woman who really cared about Sanji's health and wasn't dismissive or manipulative. The primary reason the "crying in the rain" scene is my favorite in the arc is because I was getting strong signals that we were seeing a side of Sanji that was finally recognizing that his constant need for validation through romance was perhaps a defense mechanism put up to escape his past… in that scenario, I loved the symbolism of the cigarette itself as a means of escape that he no longer has because the lighter wouldn't spark.

And um... I know I'm getting way, way too deep into it here, but I had assumed along the way that Sanji picked up smoking because he wasn't really "over" his heritage as a Vinsmoke, and it may have had that association with him. There were even a solid few weeks where I strongly felt that masculinity in general was a core theme of the arc, and what better character than Sanji to take center stage?

It should be clear at this point that I've been projecting a lot about how I would have written this arc differently, but reaffirming Sanji's dream and his unwavering devotion to his "real family" in Zeff and the Straw Hats still ultimately works, too. I don't know how valid of a criticism it is that Oda didn't go nearly as in-depth as I expected, especially because this is a manga for teenage boys, but I was definitely internally screaming during every chapter post Sanji retrieval that was just getting further and further away from what I had imagined would be a vastly more interesting story.

Anyway, I appreciate both of your help in spelling out the Zeff thing to me. I think I like the arc a hell of a lot more now that I'm able to sort of abandon some feeling like I have any sort of ownership over the story.

[Johnny B. Decent]

A lot of real life chefs smoke a lot due to stress. I generally thought that's why he did it.

[Count Mario]

I would have gone with Sanji stopping his smoking and replacing it with a 4Kids lollipop addiction for the rest of the series. I'm not even kidding. It keeps a central part of Sanji's design uniqueness intact while showing subtle character growth (especially since Sanji sucking on candy has an obvious Totland connotation). That, and I love making that kind of reference joke.

[Icefae]

@Count:

I would have gone with Sanji stopping his smoking and replacing it with a 4Kids lollipop addiction for the rest of the series. I'm not even kidding. It keeps a central part of Sanji's design uniqueness intact while showing subtle character growth (especially since Sanji sucking on candy has an obvious Totland connotation). That, and I love making that kind of reference joke.

The collective shit fit the entire fanbase would throw would honestly make that worth it.

[Coruscation]

@theackwardstation:

I've never seen Sanji as this unshakable strong-willed character as Luffy and Zoro, although also being part of the Monster Trio. I'd even remeber that, back in Baratie, Zeff's speech to Sanji was all about how Luffy had this "spear" to go all out for his dreams while Sanji was too stuck in repaying his debt to Zeff instead of leaving to the sea in order to search the All Blue. During Zoro's fight against Mihawk, we're constantly shown that Sanji didn't understand the concept of dying for your dreams, claiming it was best to abandon your dreams intead of dying. However, at the same time, Sanji was always a dutiful man ready to fight to protect his friends, never shaking before doing the right thing. So what we find is this selfless person, ready to die for the others, but never for himself… something pretty close to the plot of WCI.

...

Didn't mean about becoming an entertaining character, but fulfilling its role as a threat. A villain is ultimately an obstacle for the main character to reach its development/conclusion and Smoothie was never put in that position. Smoothie was only there to build Big Mom's crew, although I think Oda could have done much better in making her entertaining. However, about other past villains, I don't think Oda did such a great job with all of them. Since you mentioned Skypiea, I'd argue that the only Priest to have a full-fledged fight agains the Shandians (the position Smoothie would fit if her role was to fight the Vinsmokes) was Shura and he's not better than Smoothie from what I can remember, just a typical bad guy with no interesting traits (only a cool design) that ended up defeated by Wiper only to show Wiper's strong will to use the Reject Dial. For each arc, I can think of a henchman that was completely underwhelming as a character, with the exception of CP9.

Yeah, but the whole point of where that led was Zeff telling Sanji that he's been a stubborn idiot who holds himself back and refuses to follow his own dreams. He has his own "spear" as much as Luffy and Zoro but was stifling it on account of feeling forced to repay his perceived debt to Zeff. He wasn't being honest with himself when he called out people for being idiots to follow their dream even at the risk of losing their lives.

https://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/66/14

I agree that Shura is no more interesting a character than Smoothie but he made up for that by actually being a credible threat with an entertaining fighting style, who got into some pretty cool scuffles. This was a top lieutenant of the arc villain who never really had a proper fight with any SH and yet still figured as a credible antagonist entertaining enough not to feel like a disappointment… Smoothie has no excuse for not at least matching that, given her far greater stature and the greater length of her arc.

[RyaPhoenix]

Overall I enjoyed the arc a lot. Not as good to me as Dressrosa was (I know a lot of people disliked Dressrosa, but I found it to be one of the best arcs in One Piece, and my personal favorite). I know a lot of people dislike the ending, but I really enjoyed it. You don't stroll into the territory of an Emperor and expect to get away unscathed, Oda did a good job of showing the scope of her crew and why she is an Emperor. The chase parts of the arc are the one part I disliked, it just felt to take forever. I think if Oda focused on just Luffy/Katakuri for five chapters and then the chase for five chapters, we would have condensed the story down and discarded ten chapters of fluff. But, it's Oda's story, so he's entitled to do what he likes.

As for the arc as a whole, I enjoyed the second half more than the first. To be honest I really forgot most of the first half already, not much seemed to happen outside of Sanji's backstory and the Cracker fight. I mean, I don't even really remember the Cracker fight, it seems like a sidestep in the arc.

Overall, I'd give this arc an 8/10. It was great, fun, and a good introduction to the Saga of the Emperors. But at the end of the day, we still need Part 2 of this Saga. Once the Big Mom story ends, I'm sure we'll all remember this arc fondly. Personally, I am really hyped for Wano (can't wait to see the Samurai, Beast Pirates I'm eh on) so I was surprised how long this arc was, but even though it was a "sidestep" arc, it was still great.

[BattleFranky69]

@Kylor:

To be fair, ending an arc with a strong focus on Sanji's value as a kindhearted, empathetic person by having him beat the crap out of some dude would be a bit conflicting, wouldn't it? I mean, I get that it's an action story and so the worth of a character is often evaluated by his feats in battle… but such is the pitfalls of the genre.

There's lots of ways around that. Coming to the defense of a lady, like if Pudding was caught betraying the family and he had to stand up for her, being all chivalrous, and maybe even getting hurt very badly like if he needed to tank a strong attack to protect someone even if in a straight fight he could have dodged or blocked it. Anything like that could easily have justified him getting rowdy (he already attacked one of his brothers for beating that maid so that idea of him being one to resolve things peacefully doesn't really make sense). If anything he ought to have been given an opportunity to say, "I feel like everyone got the impression I spent two years just learning to cook better…but I got a hell of a lot stronger along the way, too. Don't mistake my kindness for weakness." Him actually becoming able to dominate at least one of his brothers in combat would have been a real victory here but that doesn't seem like it'll happen despite how fully that would have resolved his whole deal with them. All their value of strength, and someone with the kindest heart they ever witnessed beat the crap out of them...but that's not what we got. Still have an inkling of hope it'll happen someday but for now Sanji will just continue to be a disappointment.

And we can't really say it ended with a focus on Sanji's values if they failed to achieve the desired effect. The cake did bugger-all to stop all the fighting or chasing. Why Oda chose to fart in our faces like that is beyond me. So many chapters of buildup to the cake, Big Mom bearing down on them over and over, and this is how it...presumably...ends. I can scarcely think of a more jarring or disappointing conclusion to an arc since their first visit to Sabaody where they all got launched every which way by Kuma.

[theackwardstation]

@Coruscation:

Yeah, but the whole point of where that led was Zeff telling Sanji that he's been a stubborn idiot who holds himself back and refuses to follow his own dreams. He has his own "spear" as much as Luffy and Zoro but was stifling it on account of feeling forced to repay his perceived debt to Zeff. He wasn't being honest with himself when he called out people for being idiots to follow their dream even at the risk of losing their lives.

Indeed, there's that, although I don't think Luffy or Zoro would ever need someone telling them to pursue their dreams instead of lying to themselves. That says something. How much does it matter? Dunno.

[GolD.Ace22]

Wow guys, it's really over. Well overall i like to judge One Piece in Saga's. And this one was Amazing, that said I think this arc is the overall worst due to that low pay off after that long chase and fight with Katakuri. Yes i know the pay off was necessary and great but it wasn't good enough to make up for that terrible chase or drawn-out fight. Luffy's bounty kind of makes it worth it tho.

East Blue Saga: A+
BW Saga: S
Skypiea Saga: A
CP9 Saga: A+
Thiller Bark Saga: B
Summit War Saga: S+
Fishman Island Saga: B+
Dressrosa Saga: B+
Whole Cake Island Saga: B-
=D

[AlphaMale]

@S.C.:

Smoothie: Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick, what an utter disappointment of a character. At this stage, I fully believe her bounty is actually supposed to be 92,000,000, but someone messed it up and that's why she was made a Sweets Commander.

lol smoothie is like the luffy's bounty , but in reverse

[Blissed]

Arc's over, but Sanji surprisingly receiving the raid suit made me feel even more okay with how Oda left things between him and his family.

[Kdom]

I remember some initial thoughts I had on the arc. With the Vinsmoke and Big Mum crew, I thought Oda would emphasize the familly bonds against the friendship ones. This could have been great especially the fact that some of the familly bonds were base on force and terror. But in the end ut didn’t really happened. That is a missed opportunity

[Law-ya]

@Kdom:

I remember some initial thoughts I had on the arc. With the Vinsmoke and Big Mum crew, I thought Oda would emphasize the familly bonds against the friendship ones. This could have been great especially the fact that some of the familly bonds were base on force and terror. But in the end ut didn’t really happened. That is a missed opportunity

At this point that theme has been a missed opportunity with a few other pirate groups (Doflamingo's and Crocodile's being the main ones) but I agree that it would have been amazing in this arc as blood-bonds and 'family' were very central to BM's crew as opposed to trust in Luffy's crew. Would have been a nice angle.

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

Huh I thought the themes of family were super present in this arc, and the non-biological component was absolutely stressed. The strawhats are much more than just friends (in a non shipping way)

[RomanceDawn]

One thing I want to point out about the Whole Cake arc I really really liked that I know some of us had a problem with was when characters were introduced and used. Guys like Capone, Jimbei and Katakuri had their panel time and big moments well into the second half of the arc. At the time it seemed like they were introduced or reintroduced far too late though now we know the arc lasted much longer than any of us expected.

Then you had guys like Tamago who had a much bigger presence early on in the arc around 2016 but took a back seat in 2017.

Dressrosa seemed to jump around and have darn near everybody doing darn near everything at once and I feel like Oda learned a lesson from all of that. If masses of characters are handled in a similar way going forward I won't be mad at all.

[theackwardstation]

@RomanceDawn:

One thing I want to point out about the Whole Cake arc I really really liked that I know some of us had a problem with was when characters were introduced and used. Guys like Capone, Jimbei and Katakuri had their panel time and big moments well into the second half of the arc. At the time it seemed like they were introduced or reintroduced far too late though now we know the arc lasted much longer than any of us expected.

Then you had guys like Tamago who had a much bigger presence early on in the arc around 2016 but took a back seat in 2018.

Dressrosa seemed to jump around and have darn near everybody doing darn near everything at once and I feel like Oda learned a lesson from all of that. If masses of characters are handled in a similar way going forward I won't be mad at all.

Exactly! The structure of Whole Cake Island was really well thought out.

[Candide]

@Long:

Huh I thought the themes of family were super present in this arc, and the non-biological component was absolutely stressed. The strawhats are much more than just friends (in a non shipping way)

Yes. Even the last two chapters of the arc had a focus on this: Jeff and raid suit. I like how Oda handled it.

[blastpoke]

I thought that the arc that was average. It started out badly but ended up decent. Like it feeling like Alice and Wonderland. Didn't like it at the beginning feeling like a way weaker version of Thriller Bark and CP9 Arc. Like the location. Still don't like that the arc was this long. Still think that the Zou Arc was still Oda best post timeskip Arc.

I still didn't like the set up and the build up of Sanji vs Luffy. Luffy vs Ussop underlining motivation was way better. Wish it was Zoro vs Sanji. (We could of had a break of Luffy for an arc. Sometimes I feel like One Piece overuse their main character like Dragon Ball and Naruto. This is an ensemble story so use your ensemble cast well.) Zoro bring back Sanji would of been deeper because of their history. It would of been different if he drag him back and can't face his captain if he couldn't kept his promise. (Remember Zoro's promises?) Sanji could of been dealing with a better motivation. They could of explore the concept of how much is their job is their identity. Is Sanji nothing without his hands as a cook? (Image how Zoro logic play with losing a limb of something) Is he a nobody if he is not a cook and is being a cook the only thing that makes him a Straw Hat? (Image a speech from Zoro that convincing Sanji coming back to the crew) (I feel like they could of went the Stain(My Hero Academia) route. Deeply exploring a complex profession theme of the show) Family theme is overuse by now by movies and tv shows. Luffy dragging back a crew-mate was way better in CP9 Saga.

I like the crew of Big Mama. Big Mama, Katakuri, Perospero, Brulee, Cracker, Pudding, and Chiffon were decent. I don't know if I like the insane part of Big Mama's character. Some Big Mama's crew was well develop and some was badly develop. It is better than Thriller Bark cast of character. But felt even with the Dofamingo crew. Like the part where Luffy still need room to grow in power.

The extended backstory of Sanji was okay. None of the backstory in this arc was above average. Germa 66 was very underwhelming.
Chopper was wasted character. Carrot, Nami, Jinbe, Brook were decent in this arc.
Didn't we already went through Jinbe not really joining the crew in Fishmen Island?
Bege was way better than I thought.

The events/pacing that extended Luffy vs Katakuri fighting was way better than Doflamingo vs Luffy. The chase at the end felt like One Piece formula 101. Like the post arc stuff.

[Nilitch]

Honestly, for me, WCI, Dressrossa and FishmanIsland are the three worst arcs in this manga.

Half of WCI was boring as fuck. I mean, the 40 chapters long escape was the most unnecessary thing that happened so far in the manga. Especially that cake, because in the end it didn't really serve any purpose. Germa, Jinbei and the Sun Pirates have helped them to escape. Not that goddamn cake

Also, I hate how Sanji's character was handled. I was ready to like him, but making him dodge a jellybean is the lamest way to give him great feats. Also, why the fuck did he beat the shit out of Luffy instead of simply whispering in his ear that Zeff's life is threatened by Bigmom ?
And all that for what ? nothing, the whole arc is a scam. Sanji was "convinced" by Reiju to run away with his friends. The Zeff issue hasn't been solved yet. Sanji blacked the fuck out, he's roaming around Wano now. And Bigmom got amnesia and forgot to kill the SHs' relatives…. Oda can't just set our expectations so high and just choose to drive backwards because he had no single idea of what he was doing. People were making theories like "they either make an alliance with Bigmom, or they take her down, or they manage to create a network of strong allies to protect their friends and relatives". None of that happened. Oda didn't give any shit, and dragged the arc with 40 or so chapters, so that he could think properly about how to handle Wano I guess. In other words this arc had no reason to happen in the first place.

[Blissed]

The cake literally saved their lives in Ch. 892.

Out of several, Ch. 903 is the easiest, direct counterpoint to anyone saying WCI was pointless/didn't need to happen.

Ch. 907 further reinforces that with the knowledge that Big Mom is coming to Wano due to Luffy's actions.

And both 903 and 907 further reiterate that there is no Zeff issue, as Big Mom is squarely focused on making Luffy pay directly.

[fuzi11]

If it weren't for Sanji's super lame backstory, and Reiju as the only token girl of the family being the good person (and the lame handcuff copout), this arc would definitely have been among the greatest of One Piece, but as of now it just get's an A+ from me.

Sure, the big chase was long, but dang was every part of it epic

[Nilitch]

@Blissed:

The cake literally saved their lives in Ch. 892.

30chapters to win a few minutes, the time she eats the cake. wow
In the end, it didn't serve any actual purpose. The escape was a clusterfuck of plotlines. And again, it's Germa and the SunPirates who saved them

At least when Pedro killed himself, it took 1 panel. But Sanji had to bore the shit out of me for 30chapters.

Out of several, Ch. 903 is the easiest, direct counterpoint to anyone saying WCI was pointless/didn't need to happen.

Ch. 907 further reinforces that with the knowledge that Big Mom is coming to Wano due to Luffy's actions.

yeah lol, no one said WCI was filler or that it didn't have any impact on the story

And both 903 and 907 further reiterate that there is no Zeff issue, as Big Mom is squarely focused on making Luffy pay directly.

Indeed, both chapters insist on their amnesia

[Blissed]

@Nilitch:

30chapters to win a few minutes, the time she eats the cake. wow
In the end, it didn't serve any actual purpose. The escape was a clusterfuck of plotlines. And again, it's Germa and the SunPirates who saved them

What? I said Ch. 892 dude.

yeah lol, no one said WCI was filler or that it didn't have any impact on the story

Your post, particularly your last sentence, came off that way. But if we're in both in agreement about that, then great.

Indeed, both chapters insist on their amnesia

"Big Mom didn't do what I wanted her to do" =/= amnesia

[.access timeco.]

The thing is that everything saved the SH lives.Pedro's sacrifice saved their lives, Luffy taking Katakuri away from Sunny saved their lives, Jinbe sailing through a tsunami saved their lives, Praline distracting the sea slugs saved their lives, Carrot disabling Daifuku's fleet saved their lives, Pekoms somehow saved their lives (I don't see how, though, maybe the anime will show Brulee escaping before he captures her), Sanji rescuing Luffy saved their lives, the Vinsmoke kids rescuing Sanji rescuing Luffy saved their lives, Judge blocking Smoothie's fleet saved their lives, Wadatsumi taking the Sunny away from the cannon ball way saved their lives, the Sun Pirates and Jinbe staying behind saved their lives.

And the cake, just live everything else pointed above, saved their lives. The whole escape was a long stretch of impossible situations being overcome by last minute savings and the cake was just one more on top of all those… except none of the others required a 30 chapters (I will trust Nilitch on those numbers, but the right amount doesn't matter), they just happened. The cake had a huge building up and was constantly painted as some big device that would have a major effect on the arc... and it ultimately was just one more on a list of many savings without any particular reason to be that could pay all the building it demanded (including the sacrifice of Pound). Keep in mind that the cake ultimate moment and the big "cake climax" wasn't even the moment it saved the SH lives (it saved them when it lured Linlin away from the Sunny, many chapters before she managed to actually eat it), but the moment it saved Linlin's life and the whole population of Totto Land - the only part the cake played that it was unique to itself. As far as the SH go, the cake never had its own big relevance...

... at least until now.

Sanji said the cake was going to take BM down. He was wrong, but only if we think it was meant as we and Chiffon and Bege understood it: making her lose consciousness. Sanji's line may have a deeper meaning seeing as Linlin still wasn't taken down. She is coming to Wano where she will probably fall for good (or Elbaf, whatever). The cake may still play a part, be it through the fact she loved it so much (something that only happened thanks to Sanji, unlike the cake itself that would still exist if Pudding, Chiffon and the WC31 were working on it alone) or through the fact it was the responsible for saving the lives of everyone living in Totto Land (including the Charlotte family).

If we consider the WCI arc as the end of the cake plot line, it was a big failure of a plot device that by no means payed off. But there is a chance it may still play a part in future events.

EDIT: And yes, I think there is a big chance Linlin wasn't talking about Zeus or the poneglyph copy when she mentioned to Kaido that Luffy had something that belonged to her. If Pudding told her it was Sanji the one responsible for the cake's heavenly taste, it would make perfect sense for her to want her son-in-law back (something that could bring back Sanji/Puddin's unseen kiss as well, since manga usually use the kiss as the moment that seals a marriage).

[Nilitch]

@Blissed:

What? I said Ch. 892 dude.

yeah, the whole process of baking the cake and putting it in Bigmom's mouth took something like 30chapters. When Pedro has to kill himself, he does that in one panel. When Jinbei says he'll stop Bigmom and let the SHs escape, it happens in a few chapters at most. But when Sanji has to play his part and refrain Bigmom a few minutes, it takes 30chapters and in the end, it doesn't really have any consequences.

Your post, particularly your last sentence, came off that way. But if we're in both in agreement about that, then great.

The arc had no genuine reason to happen. But you've said "pointless/didn't have a reason to happen" as if they were inter-changeable.

"Big Mom didn't do what I wanted her to do" =/= amnesia

wtf, the whole issue about WCI was that Sanji's relatives were in danger. This is simply called shitty writing. The author can't just dump all the issues that compose a storyline in the middle of the plot.
You know, if tomorrow Teach decides to become good on a whim. It'd be garbage writing, because it'd go against everything that was established without any explanation. And this wouldn't have anything at all to do with the "readers' expectations"

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@.access:

And the cake, just live everything else pointed above, saved their lives. The whole escape was a long stretch of impossible situations being overcome by last minute savings and the cake was just one more on top of all those… except none of the others required a 30 chapters (I will trust Nilitch on those numbers, but the right amount doesn't matter), they just happened. The cake had a huge building up and was constantly painted as some big device that would have a major effect on the arc... and it ultimately was just one more on a list of many savings without any particular reason to be that could pay all the building it demanded (including the sacrifice of Pound). Keep in mind that the cake ultimate moment and the big "cake climax" wasn't even the moment it saved the SH lives (it saved them when it lured Linlin away from the Sunny, many chapters before she managed to actually eat it), but the moment it saved Linlin's life and the whole population of Totto Land - the only part the cake played that it was unique to itself. As far as the SH go, the cake never had its own big relevance...

yeah, basically this

If we consider the WCI arc as the end of the cake plot line, it was a big failure of a plot device that by no means payed off. But there is a chance it may still play a part in future events

And we should consider WCI as the end of this plotline. It needs to have actual consequences within the arc. If it happens later, it'd kind of be a retcon. I mean, it would just look like Bellamy bringing gold to Doflamingo. Anyway, I'm all about Bigmom being nice to Sanji in the future or whatever. But this cake needed to give us important consequences. And it was the last chance for Oda to "redeem" Sanji after all

[Blissed]

@.access:

And the cake, just live everything else pointed above, saved their lives.

Well that's all I've been arguing :sad:

Saying it served no purpose, that it at no point ever saved the Straw Hats, is completely different from stating the cake didn't live up to one's expectations, or that the payoff wasn't sufficient, which is absolutely fair.

I don't see how, though, maybe the anime will show Brulee escaping before he captures her

Aside from that possibility, it was subtly established that Brulee's house is situated in-between both the Mirror World and the Seducing Woods. Pekoms' a BM Pirate who was currently in WCI at the time, so it's an easy enough dot to connect. I do agree that I very much would like to Oda confirm what exactly happened once the anime episode for this comes out though.

And yes, I think there is a big chance Linlin wasn't talking about Zeus or the poneglyph copy when she mentioned to Kaido that Luffy had something that belonged to her. If Pudding told her it was Sanji the one responsible for the cake's heavenly taste, it would make perfect sense for her to want her son-in-law back (something that could bring back Sanji/Puddin's unseen kiss as well, since manga usually use the kiss as the moment that seals a marriage).

It's certainly possible.

@Nilitch:

yeah, the whole process of baking the cake and putting it in Bigmom's mouth took something like 30chapters.

Again, you weirdly keep mixing (or ignoring?) up Ch. 900 with Ch. 892. To recap, this chapter was where Big Mom was on the cusp of killing them all with Prometheus, but the arrival of the cake made her go after Bege's crew instead.

The arc had no genuine reason to happen.

Even disregarding the whole Sanji thing, they had a Road Poneglyph to copy, so that's false.

wtf, the whole issue about WCI was that Sanji's relatives were in danger. This is simply called shitty writing. The author can't just dump all the issues that compose a storyline in the middle of the plot.
You know, if tomorrow Teach decides to become good on a whim. It'd be garbage writing, because it'd go against everything that was established without any explanation. And this wouldn't have anything at all to do with the "readers' expectations"

Your analogy makes no sense to me.

Anyways, the issue was already solved in that it established that while Big Mom's crew provided Judge with Zeff's info/location, Germa was the primary one targeting Zeff. They later backed off, so that's that. While yes, it is Big Mom's thing to threaten people's friends and family to force people to come to her tea parties, the events of WCI have clearly put her in a position where their beef has become massively personal, to the point where she has no qualms over going to Wano and risk antagonizing Kaido in order to make Luffy pay as soon as possible. It was already established that she doesn't really care about his loved ones. Ch. 903 also reminded us that she has grievances towards Morgans as well, yet she's fully focusing her wrath on Luffy instead. No roundabout threats, where she waits for them to meekly come back; she literally knows where they're headed, so she's going to handle it directly. And that's fine.

People who keep harping on this are from my perspective, simply upset that Big Mom isn't doing what they'd like her to do. Admittedly, I think that people that disagree would have a much better leg to stand on if Big Mom was pretty much just chilling the entire time while Luffy and the gang did their thing in Wano. But fortunately, the world doesn't freeze just because the Straw Hats aren't there. Though I didn't know how exactly she'd respond, it was an easy enough guess that Big Mom wouldn't just sit by idly. Aside from people theorizing that she'd come to Wano, she could've targeted Fishman Island or something. (I never got why people made it seem as if Zeff is the only potential target that matters.) Between Jinbe and the Sun Pirates' betrayal, as well as the earlier beef between her and Luffy over who gets to claim it as a territory, that was also a possibility. It's frankly incredibly easy to come up with a reason for Big Mom to do something else here. In the end, she's coming straight to Wano. Again, I believe that to be fine.

[MarkSmith]

this arc which is supposed to have the year of sanji made him even more pathetic than he was before.

First of all , it's weird to see how sanji thought luffy would just nod his head in peace when sanji said he might not join SHP anymore . Like , goddamn , sanji was there on enies lobby to save robin . Sanji knew luffy is the guy who would even declare a war with World Government for his nakama …. and Luffy never listens to excuses. At least it would be more understandable if at least sanji explain the circumstances about his situation to luffy (the issue with baratie , and his cuffed hands) but sanji acted like robin (I thought sanji is supposed to be the 'smart' guy compared to zoro?)

I mean , yeah i know that he made a great cake for big mom , but the thing is we all already know that sanji is a good cook . Sanji is always potrayed , most of the time , as a fighter too just like zoro and luffy (alabasta , skypiea , enies lobby , thriller bark ...) so of course we would expect some actions from his. And his best feats from this arc is only avoiding a bean shot from katakuri (yeah i know he gave some kicks to oven but oven wasn't really the top fighters on WCI though)
And big mom is a food lover so it's not something uncommon . Now , if sanji could stop ace's execution by making the admirals have orgasm to his food , now that would be surprising .

inb4 zoro doing extra ordinary things in wano arc , compared to this dimsel in distress . I guess sanji really is a prince(ss) huh