I think that comparison is a shitty translation. "Reports from Cipher Pol are coming…" might make a lot more sense.
Is Jamini out yet, didn't check?
https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/one-piece-2/en/0/868/page/1
Chapter 868: KX Launcher
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Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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wow, well I guess now the question is; how drunk/high on drugs you gotta be that banging a cannibal is not a bad idea?
Perhaps she didn't "ask" him to have the children with her and she uh…
Also for those that are saying perhaps she didn't eat Mother Caramel and the kids, how else would she get Mother Caramel's DF then. We saw her sitting at the table, then her waking up at the table. No fruit rolled to her feet after Mother Caramel "died" that could of had Mother Caramel's DF.
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@Count:
The semantic difference can work, but it's still a really obvious twist. Especially in an arc that had clever twists like with Pudding (the possible misdirection reminds me of how Pudding's confession to Luffy looked like she was going to run away or commit suicide) and Luffy allying with Bege. Not that this necessarily makes pure cannibalism less likely of a possibility.
Again it's not about a twist. Oda made what most likely happen pretty clear. It is about avoiding the visual of the actual thing. Not everything that isn't show is a twist. It just saved for later.
Probably. But he would deserve punishment either way.
Yes but keeping Big Mom in the dark about killing her family help him keep her in check while I'm not why he would hide the survival of like 4-5 members to a 20 or 35 years old Big Mom. Or even why Big Mom would have been unable to find them in all those years.
It's not about feeling guilty, it's about being self-conflicted. Knowing that her entire motivation was a lie. Knowing that the one person who seemed to truly care for her was a lie. Two if you want throw in Streussen hiding the truth. Which leads to feeling guilty about all of the terrible things she's done to pursue a dream that she would probably think is worthless if Carmel didn't mean what she said.
Big Mom doesn't believe what she does is terrible so feeling terrible for them for killing a person trying to exploit her would be weird.
Self-conflicted about the land she created? The principle of the land is equal race. I doubt after tackling racism twice (FI&dwarfes) we are suddenly gonna have the striving for equality is bad. I also doubt Big Mom would suddenly tun on a empire where she can have sweets all day or stop her research to eat at eye level. The most important reason being both her love for sweet and her need for people her size are her own. Even if suddenly equality doesn't matter she still gets a lot more from her empire.But more importantly Carmel being a bitch only shows her little faith she should put into people and there is no reason for her to care for others as even the closest people to her can be the most awful.
And Linlin has the mindset of a kid. She's either going to break down and cry or rampage while having her illness act up than rationally process her faults or the objective integrity of a goal inherited from somebody else like somebody mature. Those are the same possibilities for finding out that she ate everybody than a 100% guaranteed guilt trip.
Killing evryone create a guilt trip because her trauma was caused by herself and she killed those people that cared for her(and the reader know cared for her). Them being alive doesn't effectively do so because if only Carmel dies while Big Mom believe she killed someone who care for her the reader knows it is not the case. And if Big Mom lears the truth about her she has even less reason to care for having kill someone that wanted to exploit her and be selfish.
The only difference is not mentioning Linlin's name anymore. Nothing really changed. Just look at how this page was framed. It's almost the exact same as this chapter, right down to news spreading of how terrible Linlin is. The only difference is Carmel being enough of a hero to still deserve their help.
I would say there is a difference being disgusted and being mad. And that erasing someone name is a pretty extreme thing.
So I still stand by how being disgusted by the cannibalism and not mentioning her name is redundant. Outside of explaining how the house got built. Especially when we know that they got along enough to have a political marriage decades later. The Giant witness feels like meaningless fluff unless it's a red herring.
Could be to make sure that the reader knows it is the truth. Pudding can affect the chef and Big Mom but not the giant. Also might be important for later Elbaf story. Like the Strawhats being heroes for killing the ogre.
But this isn't just about Loki, but also Elbaf's civilization as a whole. And how would he even learn about Lola on his own when Linlin is Elbaf's pariah?
But we know Loki is the one that wanted the marriage and the king. It's not like we heard that there were great celebration on Elbaf. As far as meeting Lola they could have met on a trip or he could have seen her wanted poster.
But then what's the point of revealing Carmel selling orphans to the World Government?
Same as surviving giant elder or hiding Akainu. To use as panel to point it was plan when it brought years later. Wether it is some random spy or Jun the giant. Carmel has like 37 years of history that can now be viewed from the point of view of a bad gal rather the perfect nurse. Maybe she helped stole some important items back in the days.
That message of being an accidental monster can only be stronger if Carmel was innocent, and her being evil doesn't somehow compensate for how all of the kids are innocent.
Carmel is evil for future plots. The children are dead for current relevance.
All I got from this flashback is how Linlin keeps getting screwed over again and again and again by how she was born and not having a good role-model, resulting in an innocent dream inhibited by a childlike mentality that instead makes her into a despot, but mainly because of illness cravings and not having anybody to teach her any better. If Oda didn't want us to potentially find her sympathetic, he would've gone all in on making her a monster like Doflamingo. And Doflamingo's poverty issues do not offset how much of a terrible person he was even as a kid before meeting Trebol.Oda likes making his antagonists as hatable as possible.
He didn't really do so with Doffly. He made him evil yet gave him plenty of humane moments especially with his crew. Also it doesn't have to do with Big Mom since whoever she killed it was not a conscious choice so it is the same as the rest.
Linlin holding the king is similar to Pudding threatening to stab other kids while still maintaining attempted sympathy for her mistreatment over her third eye (not that I feel the slightest bit bad for Pudding, ironically).
The image clearly has a darker tone with the absolutely terrified people running away (including a kid).
But that is still much different from revealing something about a flashback after the flashback is over. I don't think Oda's ever really had a flashback elaborated on after the fact with an ongoing mystery until this arc.
Sabo alive. Doflamingo killed XDrake dad. Probably others I don't remember.
Whether the kids got kidnapped or they ran away, Streussen's a scumbag who saw somebody to manipulate. He's the Babidi to Linlin's Buu. And I don't deny that the evidence is pointing more towards the kids just being dead. I don't mean to act like that's impossible and I'm dead-set on being right as some special conspiracy theorist. I only want to break down publicly how there could still be other options.
Oda could decide to make Big Mom not having killed anyone or or only Carmel and then decide it makes Big Mom better. But just like keeping Luffy around ended making the Big Mom incompetent not killing the kids would make the chracters seriously overeact and use some huge leap of logic. It's not the plot having some clever blind spot to trick the reader it is simply deciding to trick the reader by playing it straight and use flimsy excuse to justify the trick.
But what about when it comes time for Streussen to say the truth due to being a witness? That still makes it wasteful to hide the truth for this long instead of just talking about it already unless Oda thinks announcing the twist is somehow surprising at this point.
You are not thinking about the visual of Big Mom devastation or wathever reaction when the true comes out. It is like Robin wanting to live. You know she does but having her say it with everyone at the other side is powerful. You know Big Mom kill them but having it said to her is more powerful than random box.
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Seems to me that BM in fact ate everyone, can't understand why some people still think she may not have. The giant that was there care about the lamb house if he had seen mother carmel and the children in troubke from an outside party he would have try to help, if what he saw was BM stuffing her face with everything and everyone around he would have less time to react, plus it says the giants are repugned by BM, wich points towards canibbalism. Also she even ate the chairs that the children were sitting on and got carmels df.
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You'd think Bege has mirrors inside himself. Even a Chopper sized one could help in some way. At least Germa has no choice but to team up with the alliance.
It looks like Bege Castle has legs. Hope he runs like Brook.
NNID: jervinnectar
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I wasn't arguing anything, just stating he doesn't write it for just kids. If it was like that, I wouldn't be reading it, duh.
I don't want to start a discussion of something
but that logic does not sounds so good to me just because you, or several other adults are reading it, doesnt make it aimed for children? If we apply the same logic to diapers (diapers are for babies. I'm an adult. I wear a diaper ergo diapers arent for babies) maybe you can see the flaw in that logic -
@Count:
https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/one-piece-2/en/0/868/page/1
Well what a surprise. :ninja:
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I don't want to start a discussion of something
but that logic does not sounds so good to me just because you, or several other adults are reading it, doesnt make it aimed for children? If we apply the same logic to diapers (diapers are for babies. I'm an adult. I wear a diaper ergo diapers arent for babies) maybe you can see the flaw in that logic Several other adults, eh?
Time to dust off that poll from 2011.
http://www.saiyanisland.com/2011/12/88-of-one-piece-fans-are-adults/!
Of course, I don't really know what the poll method was so I'm not sure how accurate the data is, but it's still impressive. How about that logic now?
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You'd think Bege has mirrors inside himself. Even a Chopper sized one could help in some way. At least Germa has no choice but to team up with the alliance.
It looks like Bege Castle has legs. Hope he runs like Brook.
it's possible,but in that case bege must stay behind while everyone else escapes
EDIT: i was thinking,being on the roof isn't much of a problem when you have luffy in your group..i mean, he throw himself and the others off zou and i'm pretty sure it's way higher than the castle they are on.
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Loving castle Capone! Especially the chimney cigar!
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Again it's not about a twist. Oda made what most likely happen pretty clear. It is about avoiding the visual of the actual thing. Not everything that isn't show is a twist. It just saved for later.
You are not thinking about the visual of Big Mom devastation or wathever reaction when the true comes out. It is like Robin wanting to live. You know she does but having her say it with everyone at the other side is powerful. You know Big Mom kill them but having it said to her is more powerful than random box.
I can agree with this. That's definitely a valid way to view the effect of this type of reveal despite it being obvious. It would be powerful.
Yes but keeping Big Mom in the dark about killing her family help him keep her in check while I'm not why he would hide the survival of like 4-5 members to a 20 or 35 years old Big Mom. Or even why Big Mom would have been unable to find them in all those years.
Probably so that he doesn't risk Linlin getting worried about some kids enough to be fixated on finding them, which could mess up a golden opportunity for his pirate ambitions. Along with possibly fearing her going hysterical over not helping them. And Big Mom's connections can only run so deep against a World Government conspiracy surrounding orphans who only have vague origins at best.
Big Mom doesn't believe what she does is terrible so feeling terrible for them for killing a person trying to exploit her would be weird.
That doesn't mean she's not going to be distraught over Carmel manipulating her instead of only being grateful.
Self-conflicted about the land she created? The principle of the land is equal race. I doubt after tackling racism twice (FI&dwarfes) we are suddenly gonna have the striving for equality is bad. I also doubt Big Mom would suddenly tun on a empire where she can have sweets all day or stop her research to eat at eye level. The most important reason being both her love for sweet and her need for people her size are her own. Even if suddenly equality doesn't matter she still gets a lot more from her empire.But more importantly Carmel being a bitch only shows her little faith she should put into people and there is no reason for her to care for others as even the closest people to her can be the most awful.
I'm not saying that Linlin is going to suddenly think equality is bad with a complete 180. It's about being confused about what to believe anymore and/or losing the motivation to think it's possible against the opposition. She keeps repeating in her thoughts how Carmel is the one thing that she strives to make proud when the world is getting in her way. And for somebody with the mindset of a child, their mind can break from a revelation like this. Enough to either rampage or get depressed enough to question themselves about why they've been living their lives they way they have been, what was the point. She needs to realize that her need for equality and people her size should be her own, because so far, she's been doing that for Carmel while liking it because it also benefits her. And realizing that Carmel's a liar is the first step to realizing how people lie to her out of fear, because nobody has ever had the guts to tell her the truth due to fearing how she would react. The realization would be painful and could risk her not wanting to trust anybody. But it's also necessary for her to experience so that she realizes the right way to have trust in people. Not through intimidation, but mutual respect and trust rather than putting her kids below her like expendable dolls. She needs to realize that the reason people like her kids don't trust her is her own fault, and she needs to realize that she has a fault to begin with somehow in order to improve because Carmel taught her that she can expect to get everything she wants because she has good intentions despite going about them in terrible ways.
Killing evryone create a guilt trip because her trauma was caused by herself and she killed those people that cared for her(and the reader know cared for her). Them being alive doesn't effectively do so because if only Carmel dies while Big Mom believe she killed someone who care for her the reader knows it is not the case. And if Big Mom lears the truth about her she has even less reason to care for having kill someone that wanted to exploit her and be selfish.
That does not mean she's going to blow off her role-model being a villain like it's no big deal and she appreciates learning the truth. It's like learning your parent never truly loved you and only wanted material things you were a shortcut for. Even if you can now cut that person out of your life, finding out that truth is going to hurt a lot and promote self-doubt, even if you know they're bad people and that you're in the right. Emotions are that vulnerable, and especially for somebody whose mind is still like that of a child. There's a reason why her kids are scared of telling her about plans going awry because of their mistakes, and this is on a whole other level of trauma.
Killing everybody could also cause a guilt trip. Or it makes her rampage from trudging to accept the truth. Either way, with whatever the truth is, this is the first step for Linlin coming to terms with her flaws and learning to improve herself.
I would say there is a difference being disgusted and being mad. And that erasing someone name is a pretty extreme thing.
Disgust and hatred can go hand-in-hand easily. And after how she was already regarded with the destruction, it's more like a minor cherry on top of pure hatred to me. It's something I would have already expected before this chapter. Not much different from the Straw Hats being pressured to not mention the samurai on Zou, or Drum Island being sensitive about pirates after Blackbeard's recent raid. This happens all the time with infamous people a group you're in might have been intimate with before.
Could be to make sure that the reader knows it is the truth. Pudding can affect the chef and Big Mom but not the giant. Also might be important for later Elbaf story. Like the Strawhats being heroes for killing the ogre.
Or the Straw Hats make amends with Big Mom after the wedding chaos calms down. And because Morgans spreads this news, the Straw Hats get in trouble with Elbaf whenever that arc rolls around. Especially when we know Big Mom's not dying, and everybody knows they're not winning this war.
But we know Loki is the one that wanted the marriage and the king. It's not like we heard that there were great celebration on Elbaf. As far as meeting Lola they could have met on a trip or he could have seen her wanted poster.
It's all really uncertain right now, but anything is possible. I find it a bit weird that Loki can overcome his country's thoughts on Linlin because of coincidentally being in love with her daughter, but I can see him having enough power to do so.
Same as surviving giant elder or hiding Akainu. To use as panel to point it was plan when it brought years later. Wether it is some random spy or Jun the giant. Carmel has like 37 years of history that can now be viewed from the point of view of a bad gal rather the perfect nurse. Maybe she helped stole some important items back in the days.
Her true identity should be more relevant in influencing the present situation than only worldbuilding, but that's my personal preference.
Carmel is evil for future plots. The children are dead for current relevance.
And those future plot points should be relevant both in the present and future rather than just the future. Like Drake's backstory tying into Law's by explaining how he got the Ope Ope no Mi, but also inevitably tying into whatever their relationship will be like for their reunion in Wano Country. The children being dead is still separate and not contingent on Carmel's reveal of being evil.
He didn't really do so with Doffly. He made him evil yet gave him plenty of humane moments especially with his crew. Also it doesn't have to do with Big Mom since whoever she killed it was not a conscious choice so it is the same as the rest.
And because Big Mom doesn't kill people consciously on-panel, that indicates that Oda views her in a different light compared to guys like Doffy. Big Mom is an anomaly that shouldn't be compared to him. Doffy got humane moments, but they get subtracted whenever Rosinante and Law talk about Doffy being born evil and revelations like Lao G saying that the crew only values Baby-5 as a tool. I want to think Doffy has depth and that Rosinante/Law might be biased, but Oda goes out of his way to try to dismantle that.
The image clearly has a darker tone with the absolutely terrified people running away (including a kid).
Definitely. But it's also juxtaposed with her panels of her dreams practically shoving down your throat how innocent and earned they are. So instead of evil like Doflamingo, you get misguided altruism. Which would totally work for plenty of super villains and the like who think they're doing the right thing. But in this manga and knowing how Oda characterizes his arc villains, I'm leaning more towards this flashback planting redeeming attributes in Big Mom that will pay off once her rage is quelled and she learns the truth in order to gain humility and clarity.
Sabo alive. Doflamingo killed XDrake dad. Probably others I don't remember.
Oh yeah. I forgot the former.
Oda could decide to make Big Mom not having killed anyone or or only Carmel and then decide it makes Big Mom better. But just like keeping Luffy around ended making the Big Mom incompetent not killing the kids would make the chracters seriously overeact and use some huge leap of logic. It's not the plot having some clever blind spot to trick the reader it is simply deciding to trick the reader by playing it straight and use flimsy excuse to justify the trick.
Streussen and the Giant didn't really overreact that notably to where it can only be something like cannibalism. They just showed one-note emotional reactions that could fit others things than just cannibalism. Like Big Mom eating while unknowingly letting kids get kidnapped and maybe killing Carmel it the eating process. I can see that being both horrifying and morbidly hilarious. And not elaborated on perspectives of witnesses and keeping the event off-panel is somewhat clever.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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I'd like to agree, BUT! I strongly disagree because I think that debate can squarely be settled during this arc.
We have one of the witnesses present. If something happens to him, we're KINDA EF'd.
However, thanks to Pudding and the concept of Mom's attachment to her memories, it's ripe for being addressed in one form or another.
Now, I don't believe it will say, "Big Mom ate the kids."
I'm with you in thinking that won't happen for all those reasons. AoT was the FIRST thing that popped in my head when I thought, "HOLY SH*T ODA!" ^o^ But depending how that memory affects Mom, or a clue at what that memory is, I think it will be settled fair and square.
The manipulation and or revelation of that memory could be VERY important for Pudding and by that I mean making the difference between whether she's a useless exposition whelp or a useful character involved in a massive twist.
tldr: I agree it probably won't be addressed head on, however, if that memory plays as big a part as I think it will, we'll all be able to have a very solid idea of what transpired.
The case of CP or another witness may be argued. You're arguing for the case of a trustworthy narrator. I'm on the side of a trustworthy narrator. It's the only reason I really believed she actually did eat the kids in the first place.
But that might not be the case.
Example:
"It turns out, there was another witness that history forgot."
Voila.
I'm not saying this will happen, nor that I even think it will happen.
Simply that it could. Whether you like it or not and whether you feel it's stupid or not is irrelevant to being open to the possibility that, yes, it could happen.
Again, not saying this will happen. I would like to believe Mom, at the very least, ate Carmel. But here's how it could be explained: with the above in mind, if Carmel died, her power would have, as far as we know, transferred to the closest viable fruit on the island. Mom, in her state, could have devoured that fruit like she was eating sides of buildings when we saw her rampage in Sweet City.
Considering answer #1, any number of things.
I'm not subscribing to any one theory at this point. It's far too enjoyable. But I'm a little surprised at the lack of acceptance for some ideas.
I'm reminded of 2004, when fans got crapped out here for suggesting the 'insane' theory of Space Pirates. Whomp whomp.
Which would also mean that the events Streusen called hilarious are something completely different than what is currently hinted at?
Otherwise it is a bit hard to imagine both guys seeing the same thing without it actually happening. I can get behind the fact that the giant might have jumped to conclusions, especially considering Linlin was already famous for her hunger fits, but a completely detached by-stander imagining the same, i don´t know..
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Which would also mean that the events Streusen called hilarious are something completely different than what is currently hinted at?
Otherwise it is a bit hard to imagine both guys seeing the same thing without it actually happening. I can get behind the fact that the giant might have jumped to conclusions, especially considering Linlin was already famous for her hunger fits, but a completely detached by-stander imagining the same, i don´t know..
I think this says more about them as people than seeing completely different things. Believe it or not, I've talked with people who read the ending of the last chapter and actually found the fairy tale style narration with Big Mom's off-panel cannibalism and unawareness to be hilarious. But that's due to having a morbid sense of humor (and I definitely have one myself lol).
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Well what a surprise. :ninja:
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Several other adults, eh?
Time to dust off that poll from 2011.
http://www.saiyanisland.com/2011/12/88-of-one-piece-fans-are-adults/Of course, I don't really know what the poll method was so I'm not sure how accurate the data is, but it's still impressive. How about that logic now?
Does it matter? These are just the demographics of One Piece readers. Fact is, One Piece appears in a magazine whose primary target audience is young adult males (more then 60% of reader of age 14 and below), so therefore those are the people of note. Not the exceptions.
! http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-02-23/manga-mags-demographics-circulation-numbers-posted)
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Looks like they are honoring the missing Dorry and Broggy as well.
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@Count:
That would be a bit boring. Oda reveals what their bounties were before they were frozen anyways for hype. And I would be VERY surprised if Oda isn't waiting to give a huge bounty for Kaido to make him seem as intimidating as possible in Wano Country (which is the reason why we probably won't see Big Mom's current bounty in this arc since there's no real reason to hold it back for this long).
Out of curiosity, if you believe we're baskin on 3-5 billion for yonkous, what are you expecting for dragon the most wanted person alive?
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BM's ''I'll never forgive the SHs'' points even more to no deal at the end.
A bit early to repeat trebol, the evil guy that raised the big evil into the dark side. Hope it's something else for blackbeard, akainu, kaidou. can't say I would like to see this again.
Anyway, I'm even expecting fujitora to show up this arc, if luffy can't beat bm alone. He can't go to any base until he captures luffy and he should be on his tracks again after he dropped DD at Impel Down.
While both saw bm eat k, streusen doesn't seem to mind it, so he has n oreason to tell bm at the end and make her feel guilty, when it's the very reason he joined her, because he saw what she did.
The giant on the other hand, could tell it once Shs get there, but at that point it would be a little too late to count for much and Who knows if bm will even be around at that point in the story so it would count for nothing. Unless he plans to have BM return as villain in elbaf for some reason.
Hajrudin should know from the giant, but he far from this arc.I imagine BM would have some breakdown knowing what she did. But don't really see where oda would go with that, would be way too late for sorry after all she did for 63 years.
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Out of curiosity, if you believe we're baskin on 3-5 billion for yonkous, what are you expecting for dragon the most wanted person alive?
Honestly, I have no idea. If Big Mom's 5 Billion, I wouldn't even be surprised if Oda went for a round number like 10 Billion. Differences between 100 Millions seem to become more marginal over time, and I would expect the same for Billions. But this is all complete guess work.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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you would think at some point they would stop issuing bounties..who si gonna try to get big mom just for her bounty?
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@Count:
Honestly, I have no idea. If Big Mom's 5 Billion, I wouldn't even be surprised if Oda went for a round number like 10 Billion. Differences between 100 Millions seem to become more marginal over time, and I would expect the same for Billions. But this is all complete guess work.
Luffy's very first bounty could be a hint about his final bounty, as in 30m-3 billions. If top men of yonkous have 1 billions, then yonkou double their bounty sounds likely to me, to not make the crew look too low compared to captains.
Not that I really have a clue how this bounty formula Works, if there is one or oda is just going with random. At least for zoro,luffy, sanji there seems to be a pattern.
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On Loki and Lola … what if he really did take after his namesake as some have suggested? In myths Loki is a trickster and a lie-smith. Maybe it wasn't really love. Maybe he wanted "an in" to get close to Linlin to avenge the giant's hero and the others* that died in Linlin's rampage
- note on this page it show's the grave, there are 3 helmets seen.
Wut?!
Hmmm wonder what the SASA on the shirt under Pandaman's image refers to….
cipher pol agents are not THAT fast,we never saw anyone except kizaru move THAT fast,let alone multiple people
1st thought …. Rob Lucci says hi
2nd thought ... well to be fair, MOST of cipher pol wouldn't be that fast.I'm gonna play devil's advocate here (even though I do believe that Linlin did eat them)
Lets remember that we really do not know how long Linlin's state lasted, so just a few fast movers could have been needed to grab the kids.
The OP world has people with inhuman super strength as seen with Luffy, Zoro, Ace and Garp. In such a world its not out of the realm of possibility that someone can inhuman super speed.
After all, pre-timeskip Usopp has shown signs of able to reach inhuman speed at intense moments. He's out-ran a fishman, who questioned if Usopp was really human for this. Usopp was able to grab Robin and run off before the CP9 (including Lucci!) was able to react to him. He's even taken Kuzan by surprise once.Basically, if Linlin's state lasted a few minutes and Cipher Pol sent only a few of the 9th level of their organization, it could have been done.
But I still don't believe that, even after playing devil's advocate. I do think cannibalism happened.
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On Loki and Lola … what if he really did take after his namesake as some have suggested? In myths Loki is a trickster and a lie-smith. Maybe it wasn't really love. Maybe he wanted "an in" to get close to Linlin to avenge the giant's hero and the others* that died in Linlin's rampage
- note on this page it show's the grave, there are 3 helmets seen.
Hmmm wonder what the SASA on the shirt under Pandaman's image refers to….
1st thought .... Rob Lucci says hi
2nd thought ... well to be fair, MOST of cipher pol wouldn't be that fast.I'm gonna play devil's advocate here (even though I do believe that Linlin did eat them)
Lets remember that we really do not know how long Linlin's state lasted, so just a few fast movers could have been needed to grab the kids.
The OP world has people with inhuman super strength as seen with Luffy, Zoro, Ace and Garp. In such a world its not out of the realm of possibility that someone can inhuman super speed.
After all, pre-timeskip Usopp has shown signs of able to reach inhuman speed at intense moments. He's out-ran a fishman, who questioned if Usopp was really human for this. Usopp was able to grab Robin and run off before the CP9 (including Lucci!) was able to react to him. He's even taken Kuzan by surprise once.Basically, if Linlin's state lasted a few minutes and Cipher Pol sent only a few of the 9th level of their organization, it could have been done.
But I still don't believe that, even after playing devil's advocate. I do think cannibalism happened.
lucci is nowhere that fast..at last not the water 7 lucci..the cp0 one ,well we have no idea how strong and fast he is.
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This page… it looks like she's about to eat that king.....
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
lucci is nowhere that fast..at last not the water 7 lucci..the cp0 one ,well we have no idea how strong and fast he is.
Have you forgotten about Soru? You know, one of the 6 techniques of Rokushiki? Suru allows one to move super fast. Its used in both defense and attacks.
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@Count:
I can agree with this. That's definitely a valid way to view the effect of this type of reveal despite it being obvious. It would be powerful.
Cool.
Probably so that he doesn't risk Linlin getting worried about some kids enough to be fixated on finding them, which could mess up a golden opportunity for his pirate ambitions. Along with possibly fearing her going hysterical over not helping them. And Big Mom's connections can only run so deep against a World Government conspiracy surrounding orphans who only have vague origins at best.
He did help her build a country so I don't think finding children would be anymore of a sidetrack. And up to this point pirates has tended to be more knowledgeable and better at infiltration than the government.
That doesn't mean she's not going to be distraught over Carmel manipulating her instead of only being grateful.
I'm not saying she won't be upset but that it would not change much to her character or even the current situation. Which I doubt this trauma would be use for. We already had the stalling Big with emotional trauma I doubt we are going to waste the trauma to redo such a minor point.
I'm not saying that Linlin is going to suddenly think equality is bad with a complete 180. It's about being confused about what to believe anymore and/or losing the motivation to think it's possible against the opposition. She keeps repeating in her thoughts how Carmel is the one thing that she strives to make proud when the world is getting in her way. And for somebody with the mindset of a child, their mind can break from a revelation like this. Enough to either rampage or get depressed enough to question themselves about why they've been living their lives they way they have been, what was the point. She needs to realize that her need for equality and people her size should be her own, because so far, she's been doing that for Carmel while liking it because it also benefits her. And realizing that Carmel's a liar is the first step to realizing how people lie to her out of fear, because nobody has ever had the guts to tell her the truth due to fearing how she would react. The realization would be painful and could risk her not wanting to trust anybody. But it's also necessary for her to experience so that she realizes the right way to have trust in people. Not through intimidation, but mutual respect and trust rather than putting her kids below her like expendable dolls. She needs to realize that the reason people like her kids don't trust her is her own fault, and she needs to realize that she has a fault to begin with somehow in order to improve because Carmel taught her that she can expect to get everything she wants because she has good intentions despite going about them in terrible ways.
Your paragraph sounds as someone analyzing the flaw of kid and telling her parents what she need. To play out such a thing Big Mom would need someone to force her to do so. Which won't happen consider both her age and power. Plus such long term thing wouldn't really pay out in the manga and even less in the arc. We need a Big Mom taking a massive slap to the face and one readers can buy into. The kids are that door to the reader while Carmel is the door to Big Mom. We need need for the reader to actually care about the victims when Big Mom have to face the reality a reaction Carmel by herself cannot provide by herself. Plus Big Mom hurting innocents she did not want to hurt and value greatly is the door to her deciding to make some changes rather than others trying to change her.
That does not mean she's going to blow off her role-model being a villain like it's no big deal and she appreciates learning the truth. It's like learning your parent never truly loved you and only wanted material things you were a shortcut for. Even if you can now cut that person out of your life, finding out that truth is going to hurt a lot and promote self-doubt, even if you know they're bad people and that you're in the right. Emotions are that vulnerable, and especially for somebody whose mind is still like that of a child. There's a reason why her kids are scared of telling her about plans going awry because of their mistakes, and this is on a whole other level of trauma.
I didn't say she won't feel hurt but that Carmel being evil only plays into her narrative to continue to act the way she does. It is an argument for her to become more tyrannic not less. Exept of course if Big Mom doesn't learn the truth of Carmel but in this case there is some disconnect with the reader.
I think you mentioned you were not sure how Bi Mom could learn the truth from the chef. In Jaimi's translation it is mentioned the chef has been on the island for some time so he could easily be a Carmel contact or have seen her discuss with some shady individuals(and do research later).
Killing everybody could also cause a guilt trip. Or it makes her rampage from trudging to accept the truth. Either way, with whatever the truth is, this is the first step for Linlin coming to terms with her flaws and learning to improve herself.
One is a waste of Big Mom's backstory while the other have plenty interesting things to bring in a more satisfactory way. Hell even if nothing is done with both the cannibalism create a vivid image compare to how tame kid Big Mom getting tricked is.
Disgust and hatred can go hand-in-hand easily. And after how she was already regarded with the destruction, it's more like a minor cherry on top of pure hatred to me. It's something I would have already expected before this chapter. Not much different from the Straw Hats being pressured to not mention the samurai on Zou, or Drum Island being sensitive about pirates after Blackbeard's recent raid. This happens all the time with infamous people a group you're in might have been intimate with before.
Yes but in this case the story present both the disgust and the name thing as big steps that came from the horror of the actions. They seem at the very least as significant as the death of one of their hero. Would Carmel's death or Big Mom's passiveness have such grave consequences? I doubt it. I could maybe picture Elbaf caring for Carmel but such great reaction from all giants because of the death of Carmel's seems highly unlikely. In those little but meaningful things I think it is the logic needed for the survival of others to work is bending the story in ridiculous ways to fit the plot.
Or the Straw Hats make amends with Big Mom after the wedding chaos calms down. And because Morgans spreads this news, the Straw Hats get in trouble with Elbaf whenever that arc rolls around. Especially when we know Big Mom's not dying, and everybody knows they're not winning this war.
The strawhats have accumulate way to many great giants story to be in real trouble there. Have some problem with Loki maybe but no way they are getting on a bad foot with the giants.
It's all really uncertain right now, but anything is possible. I find it a bit weird that Loki can overcome his country's thoughts on Linlin because of coincidentally being in love with her daughter, but I can see him having enough power to do so.
He was a baby back then so he escape living how truly awful the action was. So to his fallen in love eyes it is simply the story of how awful a human child was and the giants are forgetting how fast humans age and mature. Plus he is marrying the daughter not the mom.
Her true identity should be more relevant in influencing the present situation than only worldbuilding, but that's my personal preference.
Who knows. Big Mom might have heard the pseudonym plus it help the oblivious monster narrative.
And those future plot points should be relevant both in the present and future rather than just the future. Like Drake's backstory tying into Law's by explaining how he got the Ope Ope no Mi, but also inevitably tying into whatever their relationship will be like for their reunion in Wano Country. The children being dead is still separate and not contingent on Carmel's reveal of being evil.
And Carmel's being evil plays into Big MOm being raised without moral. We took a long time for Sabo to be relevant and Doflamingo killing xdrake's father was just random trivia that came after the arc. Putting things for the far future is a pretty Oda things to do. Even the elder giant surviving is probably for the future. I would not be surprise of a Elbaf flashback involving Carmel where the giants don't know her evilness but we do.
And because Big Mom doesn't kill people consciously on-panel, that indicates that Oda views her in a different light compared to guys like Doffy. Big Mom is an anomaly that shouldn't be compared to him. Doffy got humane moments, but they get subtracted whenever Rosinante and Law talk about Doffy being born evil and revelations like Lao G saying that the crew only values Baby-5 as a tool. I want to think Doffy has depth and that Rosinante/Law might be biased, but Oda goes out of his way to try to dismantle that.
Yes but even at the end of the flashback you have Doffly killing his brother with some regrets rather than laughing like a madman and his next moment is reminding how his crew is his family once again reinforcing the bond between them. And we have Oda changing the roulette to certain death or Big Mom killing respected figures or massacring village. Oda wants you to know the villain but it doesn't mean he won't do different kind. You are suppose to realize Big Mom is oblivious to her actions but you are also suppose to realize she is a monster. She is like that kid that kills ants and destroy their home. It's nothing evil to her but to ants she is a monster.
Definitely. But it's also juxtaposed with her panels of her dreams practically shoving down your throat how innocent and earned they are. So instead of evil like Doflamingo, you get misguided altruism. Which would totally work for plenty of super villains and the like who think they're doing the right thing. But in this manga and knowing how Oda characterizes his arc villains, I'm leaning more towards this flashback planting redeeming attributes in Big Mom that will pay off once her rage is quelled and she learns the truth in order to gain humility and clarity.
Which plays better with dead children than dead evil godmother.
Streussen and the Giant didn't really overreact that notably to where it can only be something like cannibalism. They just showed one-note emotional reactions that could fit others things than just cannibalism. Like Big Mom eating while unknowingly letting kids get kidnapped and maybe killing Carmel it the eating process. I can see that being both horrifying and morbidly hilarious. And not elaborated on perspectives of witnesses and keeping the event off-panel is somewhat clever.
The chef called her a monster and the giant turned pale, ran off to never come back and told a tale so horrific Big Mom name's was banned. So it seems some crazy stuff must have happened there. Not just Big Mom sitting around.
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Are people really this in denial about Big Mom eating her siblings and her mother?
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This page… it looks like she's about to eat that king.....
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Have you forgotten about Soru? You know, one of the 6 techniques of Rokushiki? Suru allows one to move super fast. Its used in both defense and attacks.
soru is basically gear 2 speed and luffy wouldn't be able to abduct all those children in less than a minute and run away,so why lucci should?
that's the kind of speed of movement that kizaru or kuma would have,nothing less
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One thing that bother me a little is that even if she couldn't understand where her soul power comes from as a child, as an adult she should understand what it means for Carmel and even more as a yonkou whose kids are all devil fruit users. Don't you think ?
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I just remembered this.
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aw shit man, Smoothie is in like two panels in this one
time to get hype
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
So it turns out Capone ate the "Alexander" DF the whole time….
But man, is Struesen completely insane. He laughs at what happens and is so desperate for a monster to rebuild his crew he approaches Linlin with little hesitation.
Also this apparently confirms the idea that eating another DF user will give you a DF. I reeeally hope this is a one time rarity and that the fruit transfer is still the go-to method used my the Blackbeard Pirates among others, because if it turns out Burgess had various fresh body parts in his bag, I'm going to lose it. Though it looks like the DF using Tontotta have one more thing to worry about :ninja:
Next chapter is going to be lit, though. Big father looks like in means Capone is willing to fight and the SHs & Co will provide cover.
Though this situation has me thinking that Gangster Gastino is one of the few that can KO Big Mom in this condition, given his frankly OP fruit power. Maybe her wail prevents his gas from getting too close or something, but honestly, that dude should be able to do some damage here.
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KX became KY…
16 charterers thingy
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I know there are other possibilities as it relates to the kids fate but I am sold on Big Mom eating them. I realize that Big Mom is just a child in an adult body and one that is misguided at that, even in this very chapter we can see her dream of eating with everyone on equal level is her not understanding Mother Caramel words and therefore her doing giantification experiments. A side not (the Punk Hazard kids disorder when they don't get candy maybe as a result of Big Mom blood or DNA being a part of the drugs the kids got, well maybe it is even obvious at this point and this is where Chopper will come in and treat her condition as he did with the kids.
In the end the Arc will have to conclude with The Big Mom and Straw Hat pirates having some kind of understanding, there is no possible way in my opinion Oda can convince me that Luffy alliance can defeat the entire Big Mom pirates convincingly. There are two things that needs to happen for the resolution of the Arc and the seize fire and they are:
1. Big Mom needs to find out what happened the day Mother Caramel and the kids disappeared.
2. She needs somebody to teach her the implication of her actions (not like mother caramel and others who is afraid of her.
To solve both these issues there is two or more persons that maybe relevant, they are Luffy, Pudding, Streusen and or possible witness of what happen that day.I see a rampaging Yonko incoming in the next couple of chapters only this can alt the Big Mom army from destroying the alliance
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Maybe late to the party on this, can only check thread during work breaks, but has anyone suggested that we and/or the characters might see what truly happened through the eyes of Struessen via the Memo Memo Fruit
Waldorf: You know Statler, after watching the last one thousand episodes of One Piece, I think I've come to a conclusion.
Statler: No you haven't.
Both: DOHOHOHOHOHO!
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Maybe late to the party on this, can only check thread during work breaks, but has anyone suggested that we and/or the characters might see what truly happened through the eyes of Struessen via the Memo Memo Fruit
Yeah. And it makes much more sense than Pudding editing Bigmom's memories.
NOT EVEN CLOSE, SIR!
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Waldorf: You know Statler, after watching the last one thousand episodes of One Piece, I think I've come to a conclusion.
Statler: No you haven't.
Both: DOHOHOHOHOHO!
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Memories Big Mom likely doesn't have to edit in the first place
Or memories that Big Mom may have repressed. We do not know exactly how much time passed between her starting to eat the cake and her "waking up" and seeing everyone gone. We don't know for sure what might have happened in the mean time (although it is heavily implied she ate them and I'm more sold on that after this chapter). For all I know, Carmel was going to sell them to CP0 at that moment, Linlin didn't want to believe what was happening so she rampaged, killed Carmel, while the CP fled with the other kids and reported on her, causing the first 50 million berry bounty to be issued (this might actually be a clue here). When little Mom woke up from her rage, the memories of what had happened were repressed and she though everyone just disappeared. I also like the theory that Pudding will pull Streussen's memory out and insert it into Big Mom, leading her to remember these events.
On the other hand… Occam's Razor says she ate them. I'll keep my mind open but until Oda reveals otherwise, this is the answer to me.
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@Gol:
Guys I'm reading from the japanese that the last attack name before "Big Father" is not "ein grosser vater", but is a little bit different but I don't understand the meaning.
Someone can help me?
In japanese there's written 城(ﾙｰｸ) イン・フォラ・グレーセ!! which is readable as "Castle (rook) IN FORA GREESE", what do you think is the correct translation?I haven't read the entire thread so pardon me if anyone else already replied.
Assuming it's still supposed to be German that sounds a lot like "in voller Größe" (= in full size). It would make sense given his consequent transformation.
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One thing that bother me a little is that even if she couldn't understand where her soul power comes from as a child, as an adult she should understand what it means for Carmel and even more as a yonkou whose kids are all devil fruit users. Don't you think ?
This.
It doesn't make any sense. Not knowing the basics of DFs is something for someone from the Blues, not for an inhabitant of the Grand Line. Where DF users are most common.
If I were Streusen I'd shit bricks everytime someone mentions Devil Fruits around BM.
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Well Dogtooth got Pale white before the scream.
Was he scared just by that? I mean nothing happened.
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Well Dogtooth got Pale white before the scream.
Was he scared just by that? I mean nothing happened.
We'll probably see what he saw in the next couple of chapters.
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One thing that bother me a little is that even if she couldn't understand where her soul power comes from as a child, as an adult she should understand what it means for Carmel and even more as a yonkou whose kids are all devil fruit users. Don't you think ?
Linlin could very well know by now that Carmel is dead. She just doesn't know how Carmel died, or realize that she died during her sudden disappearance.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Well Dogtooth got Pale white before the scream.
Was he scared just by that? I mean nothing happened.
Probably. I mean, the venue was leveled, the entire crew was incapacitated, and Big Mom was about a meter or two away from dying. His predictions come in the short term, so that would be pretty scary. Plus, it was him who got the crew out of their mess with the earplugs and allowed them to deal with Bege's alliance.
Spoiler:
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Because this is Weekly Shounen Jump, the very magazine that rejected Attack on Titan from serializing on their magazine?
Graphic depiction of eating children is waaaaay beyond what they consider appropriate to publish.
Hunter x Hunter had two scenes with children being eaten. Has this ~policy~ become stricter? Or is it mainly due to cannibalism?
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My overall thoughts from last week chapter carry on to this one. Mainly because I wasn't arguing against Big Mom being a cannibal, but that the subtleties were really weak. Even taking into consideration the whole: "This is too dark to be shown" there are many ways to show these hints better. I am looking forward on how this develops though.
I presume that this is the last cover story for Cavendish, I loved Suleiman's response to his story.
The choice of words are really interesting in this chapter, because if CP had been involved they would not be witnesses of the event but part of it. So the statement that there were only two people still holds. Although the giant's reaction is clearly a sign of cannibalism happening, however now I am even more curious about why did Elbaf reopen their communications with Linlin. The idea of the kids being taken and Carmel trying to tell Linlin to go with them, or stop eating, to then be eaten or punched out of the way it is not out there, but I will see how the cook's involvement plays out. I even thought about Streusen turning the kids and everyone into food, but I think he needs to be touching whatever he wants to transform. Even his statement about not coming close could just be referring to Linlin's abnormal strength when he saw someone being swatted away.
Carmel barely being able to hold her troll face was incredible. And Linlin keeps being pushed on as a kid with good intentions but bad guidance. The distortion in Linlin's mind and the power she has is something terrifying. Also, the revelation of Big Mom having Carmel's fruit was really weak. It literally was: "oh I can do this? how odd" Hope that this gets further development and it does not just stay like that. Especially if this is a new or complementing method on acquiring devil fruit powers.
The best part was surely Bege's transformation, and like others mentioned, it looks very similar to the wedding cake. Will Streusen transform him into a cake to calm Big Mom? Next chapter is going to be exciting.
With that being said: the 20ish people that got devoured by Big Mom all deserved it for staying still for so long.
Hidden:
Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku
Hidden:
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So they failed, as we all expected.
Castle Bege looks cool, other than that, sorta eh chapter.
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@Kaido:
Linlin could very well know by now that Carmel is dead. She just doesn't know how Carmel died, or realize that she died during her sudden disappearance.
Why would she want to sit on a table with her then?
“As I stand out here in the wonders of the unknown at Hadley, I sort of realize there’s a fundamental truth to our nature: Man must explore!” – David Scott, Moon
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Why would she want to sit on a table with her then?
Cuz she wants what she wants when she's essentially a 68 year old spoiled brat. That much is clear about Big Mom.
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@Kaido:
Linlin could very well know by now that Carmel is dead. She just doesn't know how Carmel died, or realize that she died during her sudden disappearance.
.Yes i don’t think she thinks she is still alive but still she should have realized when she died and also question how she got the devil fruit power
Also after this chapter, i doubt the bomb in the treasure box will have any effect on mum. Some people say it could be the thing that save the alliance but it would be strange now that we know she is invincible against such weapons
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Bege's growing on me with every chapter. Not only his style and demeanor but also his ability all turned out to be awesome. I really like how Oda's developing the Supernovas gradually, can't wait for Urouge and Bonney to get their turn as well.
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Are we STILL saying Big Mom didn't eat the kids?… how did she get the devil fruit power then? Why are the giants so repulsed by her?
yeesh
First off lol @ Bege. I had to take a second look at the last page because at first I thought he just build one somehow then I saw the eyes. XD
Anyways I came here to propose this. We know Blackbeard can have more than one devil fruit power... he covered up Whitebeard and seemed to absorb him. So I guess when you absorb or eat a body whole, you earn that devil fruit power. Now, this is some crazy shit that came to mind and I'm SURE Oda won't ever go in this direction but I have to bring it up...
How much of that cracker guy did Luffy eat? Luffy is entirely capable of eating an entire person. As creepy and horrible as it would be... what IF that was the next level for him? I don't even think he'd want to but... what if that's what we're setting up for?
_For with a closing door, another surely opens
Just you wait and see,
And when you look back on where we've been together
Wherever you may be
I hope that you remember me_
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Are we STILL saying Big Mom didn't eat the kids?… how did she get the devil fruit power then? Why are the giants so repulsed by her?
yeesh
First off lol @ Bege. I had to take a second look at the last page because at first I thought he just build one somehow then I saw the eyes. XD
Anyways I came here to propose this. We know Blackbeard can have more than one devil fruit power... he covered up Whitebeard and seemed to absorb him. So I guess when you absorb or eat a body whole, you earn that devil fruit power. Now, this is some crazy shit that came to mind and I'm SURE Oda won't ever go in this direction but I have to bring it up...
How much of that cracker guy did Luffy eat? Luffy is entirely capable of eating an entire person. As creepy and horrible as it would be... what IF that was the next level for him? I don't even think he'd want to but... what if that's what we're setting up for?
Luffy won't become a cannibal. He would die from 2 fruits.
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Congratulations Strawhats, you managed to royally pissed off two Yonkou and the 3rd one wants to destroy you for giggles.
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There is most definitely something more than mere cannibalism to her history. If it was just that, there was no point in revealing Carmel being the mountain hag, or other people being witness at that time. I also don't believe that shonen jump would not allow any depiction of cannibalism. All the posters always say shonen jump is for kids, but in reality it is for teens. And let's be real, has any one of you read german fairy tales? Child cannibalism isn't that uncommon in kids stories. Also just mentioning it with out picturing it would have been fine as well. No, there is clearly more to it.
