Chapter 866: Natural Born Destroyer

O baba

Is it?

It looks more like Caramel is going to bite the dust courtesy of the chieftain's axe currently being swung at Linlin.

The old dive in the way sacrifice and what not.

That's just how I'm seeing it though.

ok, that could make sense indeed…

Greg

Interesting question about whether or not this is the first time we've seen giantesses or not.

So during Marine Ford there was a feminine giant, right?

Interestingly enough, that giant is almost cdrtainly based on the Japanese television personality Ikko-san who is a male crossdresser.

Even more interestingly, check out the Film Z Marine spread. In the upper left corner you'll find a female-looking giant(ess?) whom I have never been able to identify!

Razh

With all these mentions of axes being swung, I actually went to check if I was imagining things.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Kaido:

They're a member of a race of ice giants that have a historic enmity with the giants of Elbaf of course. The main villains of Elbaf will be the Yeti Cool Clan.

Led by their high chieftain, Grog.

Long John Silvers Rayleigh

@Count:

I don't really think somebody as powerful post-timeskip Luffy one-shotting Hajrudin is exactly to use as confirmation that giants aren't really formidable. That would go for something more along the lines of, I don't know, this:

http://i.imgur.com/75LjY7j.jpg

If crocodile got his power buff to make sense, then maybe dorry and broggy will get revisionist boosts for their reputation as well, I mean maybe 100 years of straight fighting really wore them down

Don Quichotte De Flamingo

BM is like a nightmare to every parent who went into a supermarket and their kid sees something it has to have.
But also shows that BM had intentions of doing the right thing, but she just never was told how to regulate herself.
Makes me question how much of a good mother Caramel actually was,just like with Mother Theresa….. brilliant Oda^^

Long John Silvers Rayleigh

Really enjoyed this chapter for what it was
Loved the VIKING scenery and giant sea animals
Big surprise that we saw almoost all the giants we've met
Lin lin appeared to be both well meaning and undisclipined
Mother Caramel was too forgiving but likely didnt see the frenzy coming
The village elders / ex captains have sweet names / designs
Big mom's powers must really be something now if she was that strong then
The storm behind caramel, powers of dramatic effect lol

Cannot wait till we go here, especially since this is likely just a village compared to the Huge city, kind of like how luffy's village was a speck near to the goa kingdom

KageKageKing

I just realized that even the cover story is a flashback.

Sads

Monquito

that tree looks like it could take you to Skypiea, if Skypiea was above Elbaf oc.

Don Quichotte De Flamingo

Usopp will also update himself to the sun god, tying in with the religious aspect shown to be present in Elbaf.

desa

@Don:

BM is like a nightmare to every parent who went into a supermarket and their kid sees something it has to have.
But also shows that BM had intentions of doing the right thing, but she just never was told how to regulate herself.
Makes me question how much of a good mother Caramel actually was,just like with Mother Theresa….. brilliant Oda^^

How much do you regulate a 5 year old. She did tell her why what she was fixing didn't need fixing.

Don Quichotte De Flamingo

@desa:

How much do you regulate a 5 year old. She did tell her why what she was fixing didn't need fixing.

Mother Caramel just told her to please stop it, instead of making her clear that she put others in a dangerous situation.
She knows what power is within LinLin, but she doesn´t tell her or helps her in controlling that in a way she isn´t killing stuff by the way.
LinLin had good intentions, but they still were a threat to all around her and without her being told what her doings can cause without considering her power, it´s just reckless and doesn´t do any kid any good.
The importance of mentors/role models were stressed by Oda in almost every other flashback.
Also knowing how LinLin turned out to be, it´s safe to say that Caramel wasn´t able to show her a way to live with her power a peaceful way…instead of becoming a murdering queen of the anyways pretty bad OP world

auem

Linlin was just 5 years old, too young to understand the goods and the bad or to be regimented and honestly who could control her?Installing fear was not a option for such monster.She used to do that to others….lol.

desa

@Don:

Mother Caramel just told her to please stop it, instead of making her clear that she put others in a dangerous situation.
She knows what power is within LinLin, but she doesn´t tell her or helps her in controlling that in a way she isn´t killing stuff by the way.
LinLin had good intentions, but they still were a threat to all around her and without her being told what her doings can cause without considering her power, it´s just reckless and doesn´t do any kid any good.
The importance of mentors/role models were stressed by Oda in almost every other flashback.
Also knowing how LinLin turned out to be, it´s safe to say that Caramel wasn´t able to show her a way to live with her power a peaceful way…instead of becoming a murdering queen of the anyways pretty bad OP world

I think if your kid accidently kill a cat because it was trying to separate a fight you try to explain how he has to be more gentle without having to put the guilt of a death into her. Carmel seemed to be doing the same. Tell her that those imperfections were actually normal and that it was not the right thing to do but without telling her she's a monster. I would be critical and how Big Mom was raised if she sticked around but considering her age and her looking the same as in the photo she is most likely going to disappear soon.

blue-san

It is true what people are saying that we have yet to really meet a Giant who is a monster in terms of fighting power and what you would expect them to be seems well… everyone in OP is like giants...scary

But I am 99,99% sure that there are plenty of them on Elbaf, mostly also probably surrounding the king. But I did really like the chapter and I do wonder how this will all go and just how it all went down and will go down to tie Elbaf to the main story and eventually take us there.

It is clear though now even more than before and it was clear before already that Lin Lin is not going down to that Poison attack and what not.

silversatyr

@omy785:

I don't know…are we supposed to feel bad for Linlin/BM? 'cause I certainly don't feel that way...

I think we're supposed to feel bad for her, yes, but not as much as understand where she came from and why Caramel plays such a large part in scarring her psyche.

I do feel a little bad at the idea of a kid who just wants to do stuff right but accidentally hurts those around her, especially as it was adults failing her that caused the issue in the first place. Her parents just dumped her instead of trying to stick through and teach her right from wrong, Caramel never properly helped her realise that her actions, no matter how well-intentioned, had consequences or that she should feel responsible for those consequences, good or bad. None of the adults around her thought to question whether such an odd child should be made to take part in their ceremony, especially when they knew that she had issues with requiring a large amount of food. Also, someone should have noticed how oddly she reacted to the Semla - the panels that show her eating and reacting to it definitely set off more than a few warning bells. That kind of severe reaction should have exempted her from fasting for so long, especially seeing as her biology wasn't really understood. That'd be like giving a kid peanut butter for the first time, seeing them dive into the whole jar with just their fingers, and then saying "You know what? I don't see an issue here. Oh, by the way, you're not eating for the next x days or so now."

Frankly, she'd been let down quite a bit and the adults should have known better.

I don't feel sorry for her adult form, but I do feel sad for the abandoned girl who was never taught better and whose symptoms were ignored completely.

@desa:

How much do you regulate a 5 year old. She did tell her why what she was fixing didn't need fixing.

Got a 5 year old niece. She pulled our cat's tail and got told off for it. She wall pulled aside, scolded and had it explained to her that animals have to be treated gently or they could get seriously injured. Hey, guess what? She now treats the animals gently and they don't get hurt. Hell, they don't run from the room when she comes in any more either. Kids learn if you bother to pull them up on their bad behaviour and actually teach them. They're not stupid.

K. Kira XXIII

Heretics, the lot of you! Those lips, that scar can you not see that this boy grew wings and lived long!!

[hide][/hide]

satudua

"Village's Lord, Goldberg" (Jaimini) or "Rold, Gold and Balg" (mangastream) ??

Razh

@Long:

If crocodile got his power buff to make sense, then maybe dorry and broggy will get revisionist boosts for their reputation as well, I mean maybe 100 years of straight fighting really wore them down

Maybe they swore not to use Haki until the winner is decided. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Conspiracy theory time! Big Mom isn't to blame here entirely. It was Damask who set the village on fire, BM wanted to stop him, something happened in between (still working on this part), BM went cray cray.

Ping

@satudua:

"Village's Lord, Goldberg" (Jaimini) or "Rold, Gold and Balg" (mangastream) ??

Goldberg - Village's Lord is the right translation.

Monquito

So Cabbage is royalty-related, how many royalties where involved at Dressrossa, cheeses. Manshelly, Elizabello, Sabo, Cabbage, Doula, Riku, Violet, Becca, Its almost a miracle Momo and Sanji weren't around.

Nolus

@Greg:

Interesting question about whether or not this is the first time we've seen giantesses or not.

So during Marine Ford there was a feminine giant, right?

Interestingly enough, that giant is almost cdrtainly based on the Japanese television personality Ikko-san who is a male crossdresser.

Even more interestingly, check out the Film Z Marine spread. In the upper left corner you'll find a female-looking giant(ess?) whom I have never been able to identify!

So the giantess at Marineford isn't really a giantess? Hm~

That marine spread has some mysteries still that I can't wait to find out more about.

This whole flashback is quite exciting to me even without having had exams from Scandinavian Mythology and the such. So many designs, so many new (and old) characters. The Beards are both very intriguing. I'd loved to see members of the Giant Squad or even John Giant somewhere, maybe at the pirates' execution, but oh well.

maxterdexter

When we saw the surprise rocinante on that cover, it was awesome.

Nilitch

I hope that Lord Yorle doesn't get winged next chapter. I'm okay with the 5year-old Linlin taking down fodder giants and such, but not the lord. It'd un-hype Loki if she does that.

Fraco

lin lin father must have sperm bigger than a ponegliph.

I find Big Mom a little too much monodimensional and annoying in some ways.
She's born as she is now practically

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@maxterdexter:

When we saw the surprise rocinante on that cover, it was awesome.

lol - 16 chars

.access timeco.

@desa:

Carmel seemed to be doing the same. Tell her that those imperfections were actually normal and that it was not the right thing to do but without telling her she's a monster.

The problem that was not was she was doing. The bold part is exactly the one Carmel was skipping and that's where the lesson about wrong and right lies. There is a difference between saying "his arm is supposed to be like that. And even if it wasn't, you shouldn't try to rip a part of somebody's body, that hurts them" and simply saying "his arm is supposed to be like that".

BM was never taught she was hurting others, just that such behavior was not needed in those circumstances. In her head, resorting to force was still ok if there was an imperfection to be fixed.

In Carmel's defense, though, BM parents weren't very good at decisions as well. When Linlin was exiled, they simply left her in Elbaf expecting Carmel to find her!? Didn't occur to them contacting her and explaining the situation would prevent a lot of harm?

Count Mario

@.access:

In Carmel's defense, though, BM parents weren't very good at decisions as well. When Linlin was exiled, they simply left her in Elbaf expecting Carmel to find her!? Didn't occur to them contacting her and explaining the situation would prevent a lot of harm?

I have a feeling that this might be because if Linlin knew that she was going to get adopted, they would fear Linlin having another rampage due to not properly understanding how that happens because of hunger pangs (just like how everybody in Elbaf doesn't understand why Linlin suddenly razed everything to the ground and think an evil spirit possessed her). If they knew about Linlin's condition, they probably would have left a note for Carmel or something.

Not that this justifies their actions, of course.

KageKageKing

"By the way Linlin, if we do not come back at night, go to the big house with a sheep on it."

Count Mario

That would have been appreciated. Although they might have worried it would cause suspicion.

.access timeco.

@Count:

I have a feeling that this might be because if Linlin knew that she was going to get adopted, they would fear Linlin having another rampage due to not properly understanding how that happens because of hunger pangs (just like how everybody in Elbaf doesn't understand why Linlin suddenly razed everything to the ground and think an evil spirit possessed her). If they knew about Linlin's condition, they probably would have left a note for Carmel or something.

Not that this justifies their actions, of course.

I understanding not explaining the situation to Linlin herself, but Carmel is another story. Even if they didn't knew the reason behind Linlin's rampage, they knew what she could do and we can see Carmel was completely unaware of it (she didn't even knew Linlin was supposed to be strong until she saw it first-hand).
Actually, since we saw Linlin waited for a good while in the shore, it seems they didn't even contact Carmel to warn her they left a kid in the shore. BM was most likely found there by chance (and by luck, after a few days alone there she would end up going berserk anyways).

Count Mario

@.access:

I understanding not explaining the situation to Linlin herself, but Carmel is another story. Even if they didn't knew the reason behind Linlin's rampage, they knew what she could do and we can see Carmel was completely unaware of it (she didn't even knew Linlin was supposed to be strong until she saw it first-hand).
Actually, since we saw Linlin waited for a good while in the shore, it seems they didn't even contact Carmel to warn her they left a kid in the shore. BM was most likely found there by chance (and by luck, after a few days alone there she would end up going berserk anyways).

To be fair, we don't know how Mother Carmel is accessible to them even if they know about her reputation, as well as the geography of Elbaf. But then again, that logic makes it even more irresponsible for them to think that a child can find her way to Mother Carmel's place if they likely can't.

Yeah, this could have been handled better if we're supposed to find the parents to be sympathetic and caring.

Kizuchan

It was really cool to see Elbaf, but I'm not sure about the possible redemption of Big Mom. Her backstory goes along with her character, but I'd rather prefer her as a villain - she's been a very good villain so far, but it seems like that's pretty likely where it's going. Would be the best if she'd have this backstory and still stay a villain, though.

Kaido King of the Beasts

@K.:

Heretics, the lot of you! Those lips, that scar can you not see that this boy grew wings and lived long!!

[hide]http://i.imgur.com/oCuH8QG.png[/hide]

[hide]https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/4/4c/Urouge_Manga.png/revision/latest?cb=20120915040009[/hide]

Sorry, Urouge-sama is only 47 ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Count Mario

@Kaido:

Sorry, Urouge-sama is only 47 ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Urouge-sama is immortal and you should already know this.

STP_PS

@Kizuchan:

It was really cool to see Elbaf, but I'm not sure about the possible redemption of Big Mom. Her backstory goes along with her character, but I'd rather prefer her as a villain - she's been a very good villain so far, but it seems like that's pretty likely where it's going. Would be the best if she'd have this backstory and still stay a villain, though.

She can remain a villain.One with a couple of layers exposed. Her childhood story won't necessarily soften her character nor tarnish her misdeeds and threat.If anything, it will flesh her out and provide depth to the complexity which is Linlin. From where I stand this Flashback is still uncooked, yet the pan is on the burner and the fire is on! Believe it or not, I do feel for 5 Y.O Linlin. That said, as BM's past gets unraveled opportunities to showcase her larval stages and how she evolves from caterpillar to BIG MUM (can't call her a butterfly:wassat: a moth perhaps?) are far too juicy to be wasted. Mother Carmel's death is sure to be one of the triggers If not THE Trigger, but I ponder if we're in for a domino buildup with a tragic ending.

Regardless of what happens in the FB and hunger pangs aside my feelings towards BM are unlikely to change.Honestly, In spite of her unripe behavior present day Big Mom has been portrayed once and again as a proactive schemer with set goals (many of them stemming from her childish desires).

Don Quichotte De Flamingo

@desa:

Tell her that those imperfections were actually normal and that it was not the right thing to do but without telling her she's a monster. I would be critical and how Big Mom was raised if she sticked around but considering her age and her looking the same as in the photo she is most likely going to disappear soon.

Caring for a child is more than just loving it and keeping it away from every harm.
Mother Caramel showed that BM is loved by her, but she completely missed to discipline her which is an as important part of being a parent/role model.
Kids ain´t stupid and should have a chance of learning from their mistakes, but for that they have to be told and understand when they did something wrong.
Add to that not happening to her, that she was surrounded by problem children who also influenced her character, which resulted in her being a person who can´t handle not getting what she wants.
Obviously BM is a raging killing machine, that strikes fear in the whole world of OP, because her tantrums make her demon who stops at nothing but getting what she wants.
Maybe some constraints would have helped her, to get to a different conclusion how to handle her powers.

Shobu Yoruichi

What a shit of a chapter, Oda only put that ceremony of the sun and tried to introduce the normal giants to Elbaf I had too high expectations on this.

ARTEMlS

With this flashback I actually can see Luffy vs. Big Mom happen.

Which Luffy will "win" by landing a good hit showing her the feel of pain and therefore doing the parenting lesson Carmel and the others didn't do. However, of course, during this Luffy will take at least a ten times more damage at his own. And then in the best case he still can barely stand when they make amends and in the worst case he just faints.

Some scenario like this might be a good way to really hype the Yonkous' battle provess.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Besides, Linlin's characterization really works for me and I actually can feel some sort of empathy for her even as adult. Ironically her strength from birth on is her biggest weakness (from birth on) as well. Because of that strength no one was able to give that girl - who actually is kind and caring in her ways - the proper parenting she deserved. Yeah, she's a bitch who changes the rules on her whim whenever she feels like it (which I heavily critisized earlier on), but that's just how kids do when no one establishes any rules at all. Physically she's... let's say 47 now, but on her mind she's still that five year old child. As perfectly seen when she woke up and dealt with Brooke's "death". A very simple-minded child...

sgamer82

Physically Big Mom is 68. She's five in a flashback telling place sixty years ago

Monquito

@ARTEMlS:

With this flashback I actually can see Luffy vs. Big Mom happen.

Which Luffy will "win" by landing a good hit showing her the feel of pain and therefore doing the parenting lesson Carmel and the others didn't do. However, of course, during this Luffy will take at least a ten times more damage at his own. And then in the best case he still can barely stand when they make amends and in the worst case he just faints.

.

I been expecting physical-confrontation the whole time(since we all know the launchers won't do shit), but defeat uuhmm, that's another thing.

desa

@.access:

In Carmel's defense, though, BM parents weren't very good at decisions as well. When Linlin was exiled, they simply left her in Elbaf expecting Carmel to find her!? Didn't occur to them contacting her and explaining the situation would prevent a lot of harm?

She seems well reknowed and Big Mom problem is pretty apparent.

NateRich

@Razh:

Man, I just love the atmosphere on Elbaf. And the 2 oldest warriors will no doubt be a well of information about the past once SH get there. If they survived this episode, that is.

It's ~62 years later. They've got to be dead by now unless they have the vitality of Kureha.

Razh

@NateRich:

It's ~62 years later. They've got to be dead by now unless they have the vitality of Kureha.

What kind of boring development that would be?

Oda: Here are 2 guys that could expose us to all kinds of interesting information. Think of what kind of crazy shit they've seen. They died of old age, though.

Even having them die to BM would be total crap. We. Need. That. Info.

Though it's always possible their descendants know some of the stories. Which wouldn't be half as interesting. Descendants can't provide first person perspective flashbacks.

Koliber

@Razh:

What kind of boring development that would be?

Oda: Here are 2 guys that could expose us to all kinds of interesting information. Think of what kind of crazy shit they've seen. They died of old age, though.

Even having them die to BM would be total crap. We. Need. That. Info.

Though it's always possible their descendants know some of the stories. Which wouldn't be half as interesting. Descendants can't provide first person perspective flashbacks.

What are you talking about? We did get Norland and Calgara flashback even though both were dead for handreads of years. Flashbacks in OP are rarely "first person perspective". Characters currently reminiscing didn't see many things we see (like thoughts of their dead mentors). If there's interesting story to tell about them, Oda will show it. Not to mention that their deaths themselves might be interesting. And frankly, I'd like SHs (Robin) to uncover some of the stuff on their own (Jaya/Skypiea) rather than everything being told in flashback only.

phungquan

This post is deleted!

Razh

@Koliber:

What are you talking about? We did get Norland and Calgara flashback even though both were dead for handreads of years. Flashbacks in OP are rarely "first person perspective". Characters currently reminiscing didn't see many things we see (like thoughts of their dead mentors). If there's interesting story to tell about them, Oda will show it. Not to mention that their deaths themselves might be interesting. And frankly, I'd like SHs (Robin) to uncover some of the stuff on their own (Jaya/Skypiea) rather than everything being told in flashback only.

I should have phrased it a little better, maybe. Most of the flashbacks have a medium which connects them to the present day. In that Skypiea example, it was revealed Nola the snake knew both Noland and Calgara and was even named after Noland.

A flashback that's just thrown in there for perspective, without any one person from it being a part of the current plot just seems naratively awkward for me. And it's not something Oda often does. Or ever? I'd have to check all the flashbacks to be sure.

And things Robin can discover through glyphs are limited, unfortunately.

Koliber

@Razh:

I should have phrased it a little better, maybe. Most of the flashbacks have a medium which connects them to the present day. In that Skypiea example, it was revealed Nola the snake knew both Noland and Calgara and was even named after Noland.

A flashback that's just thrown in there for perspective, without any one person from it being a part of the current plot just seems naratively awkward for me. And it's not something Oda often does. Or ever? I'd have to check all the flashbacks to be sure.

And things Robin can discover through glyphs are limited, unfortunately.

Norland's flashback was presented as a story inside Wiper's flashback told to him by that one elder. Nola was really nice addition but it was in no way necessary for the story. And Robin isn't just a glyphgirl, she's archaeologist. I'd like to see her use her brain and skills like when the ship has fallen from the sky.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

After I wrote it, I started thinking. Do two Giantbeards know Norland? His life would be in their childhood/adolescence.

KageKageKing

@Razh:

Even having them die to BM would be total crap. We. Need. That. Info.

We don't actually. It's very possible that there were giants that were like 100 years younger than them and sailed on their ship that could gave a first-person perspective of whatever they witnessed.

Razh

@KageKageKing:

We don't actually. It's very possible that there were giants that were like 100 years younger than them and sailed on their ship that could gave a first-person perspective of whatever they witnessed.

I need that info then.

Really doubt those 2 geezers were thrown in just to get wasted in the flashback or to die of old age off panel.

Tijnn.

@Razh:

I need that info then.

Really doubt those 2 geezers were thrown in just to get wasted in the flashback or to die of old age off panel.

I agree with you. I think it's probable that Yorle (Jorl?) is going to die, causing the giants to hate BM for killing one of their heroes. We should then probably see Yarle (Jarl?) in the current timeline at Elbaf.