Chapter 867: Happy Birthday

[uniaka ikuzakas]

@Razh:

Who said anything about giving up on selling.

They drug BM with semla, go and hide, CP0 comes to collect BM, Caramel and children return (or whatever she planned out).

That could have been the plan, anyway. In the meantime something went wrong.

And what's the deal with CP0. There's no way that plot thread would have just been cut. They'd come after BM sooner or later. Not like they could have forgotten, or didn't even bother to check if she was there.

Something did go wrong with the plan, bm eats them too:ninja:

Anyway, maybe the place carmel meets cp0 is not totland so they didn't know her location, or maybe considering bm at 5 wrecked even elbaf, she managed to wreck all cp0 agents send to colect her too.

[pRopaaNS]

@K.:

What I do not understand is how Linlin ate everyone while remaining in the same position, and how did she grab them fast enough that no one, even the people on the other side of table did not move at all?

[hide]http://i996.mangareader.net/one-piece/867/one-piece-9369757.jpg[/hide]

She is big, but to get to Mother Carmel she would have had to move.

The one likely to have been eaten is Caramel, because it's the most likely way how BM gained her DF powers. As for children, I just don't see why would they sit still and let themselves to be eaten too, most likely they all fled as far away as possible, whoever survived. On that note I think we might get confirmation for what happened by hearing the story from one of those survivors.

[vlad Dracul]

@K.:

What I do not understand is how Linlin ate everyone while remaining in the same position, and how did she grab them fast enough that no one, even the people on the other side of table did not move at all?

[hide]http://i996.mangareader.net/one-piece/867/one-piece-9369757.jpg[/hide]

She is big, but to get to Mother Carmel she would have had to move.

if you look closely, you could see that everyone carmel and the kids have one sweet either in their hand or infront of them
makes sense to me

[Dranza]

I think how the chapter pans out there's little left for the imagination…all the kids and Caramel are shown holding a croquembouche. Then it say her eyes were so filled with tears of joy she couldn't see a single thing through them then it shows everyone holding up the croquembouche and offering it to her then it says that she indiscrimately ate the tables and chairs without knowledge of doing so...the CP involvement wasn't to show that the CP had some major part to play in BM's story they were shown to reveal Caramel's true nature. The likeliest scenario is that everyone was eaten.

[ARTEMlS]

@K.:

What I do not understand is how Linlin ate everyone while remaining in the same position, and how did she grab them fast enough that no one, even the people on the other side of table did not move at all?

Death Battle Linlin vs. Kirby confirmed!

[Seafarer33]

@Dranza:

The likeliest scenario is that everyone was eaten.

While I do favor this outcome I have to admit that, in lack of irrefutable proof, there are a number of equally plausible ways for the children and Mother to have vanished. I would tend to rule out CP0 directly intervening because had they done so, they would most certainly have tried to capture Linlin as well and that would likely leave battle marks all around if not a couple dead CP agents. But Mother manipulating the other children into pulling a fast one on Linlin could be a thing.

The one decisive factor at the moment is that I have yet to read a convincing explanation of what Oda's purpose would be in involving CP0 and/or keeping any of the children alive as government soldiers or whatever. Suppose they did and Big Mom eventually learns the truth: how would that change the dynamics of her relation to the Straw Hats or anybody else? Would it make her question her status as a Yonkou and sixty years of ruthless piracy? Their disappearance largely defined her character, but their return is likely not going to change it and so I'd prefer them to stay gone.

We may find out about this in an upcoming flashback, just as we may never learn the truth and keep the memory for what it is : a grey, uncertain cornerstone of Big Mom's character. Either way, Greg often says Oda likes to make his readership speculate about events: despite all the shortcomings of this arc, I'll tip my hat to the man and reckon this much was handled masterfully.

[Shinneth]

@Razh:

At least until the time came for her to dump those bones during #2.

Oda thinks things through a lot better than that. I guess it's possible she wouldn't remember dumping human skulls, since she was only 5, but still. What are the odds of her just swallowing each and every person while being so overcome with hunger for sweets that she chomped the table down. So she was biting semla and the table, but she swallowed children the whole?

I can't not be skeptical here.

Ahahaha… well, Linlin as a small child WAS extremely naive and oblivious regarding all sorts of terrible deeds (and some of that carried on well into her present age, obviously - pretty sure she doesn't even speak or think anything of Moscato at any point after she killed him... then again she wasn't really thinking of him specifically AS she killed him either...). Considering her eating habits before her birthday party, it feels to me like having some hard time passing horrific #2s wouldn't exactly be uncommon for her. And that's assuming she doesn't have super-potent stomach acid that would've dissolved the normally-indigestible stuff... because even though that's nothing more than headcanon, I feel that's not outside the realm of possibility for Linlin to naturally have. I think that's all I'm gonna say about this subject, though. I just have a feeling an in-depth discussion of Linlin's poo-poo habits is only going to lead to tragic casualties in anyone who reads this. XD

Considering what we've seen of her abilities pre-DF, though, I believe she didn't need a DF to be able to give birth en-masse, up to 10 at once, for every single year spanning across a number of decades. Clearly, something about Linlin makes her a born freak of nature. For what we've seen her accomplish in her very young childhood, knowing she's regarded as being too dangerous and destructive to live in "normal" civilization - and even after her exile to Elbaf, she still proves to be a force too much for even the giants to bear; not many preschool-aged kids even in OP's world could boast destroying a giant's village via being HANGRY and mortally wound a seasoned giant warrior…

(actually, Linlin would be a perfect candidate for a Snickers commercial...)

Also, kinda shooting in the dark here, but is it possible Linlin unlocked her Haki capabilities even at this young age? Conqueror's Haki happening in this situation would make it nigh on impossible for ANYONE at that table to escape. I also imagine Linlin's a black hole personified when it comes to her eating habits, so maybe that could be a possibility...?

Just sayin', I feel like CP0/Marines/whoever could have kidnapped the kids at this time, I feel like there would have been a full search of the house as well (since these kids were basically big, individual paychecks and it's probably worth scouring the residence on the off-chance one might still be in the house during the party) and thus the house would've looked like a wreck, and I'd figure as Linlin's searching the house (that as far as we can tell, looks untouched)... if she saw it wrecked, her first thought would probably be that someone took her family from her; not that she's been abandoned. But she clearly thinking the latter here.

Sorry, just throwing a ton of crap on the wall and seeing what would stick. I completely understand the skepticism of the implications here - I'm sure that's what Oda meant to invoke out of us this week - but I still strongly lean towards the belief that this is Oda's twisted homage to the Brothers Grimm fairtytale. It would just be WAY too big a coincidence otherwise.

[HaxeyeMihawk]

@Razh:

It was necessary because CP0 had to appear, and they had to appear because they obviously played a role in what transpired. Things don't happen just because in a narration like this one, in a manga like this one.

Not necessarily, CP0 being implied to be business partners of underworld criminals is enough to further set them up as villains in a future arc without further complicating things and misleading the readers that CP0 swooped in out of nowhere and took everyone away. Where this CP0 theory really falls face flat is that Big Mom was the most valuable orphan in terms of combat potential so why in hell would CP0 swoop in and take everyone but her?

[K. Kira XXIII]

@uniaka:

Anyway, maybe the place carmel meets cp0 is not totland so they didn't know her location, or maybe considering bm at 5 wrecked even elbaf, she managed to wreck all cp0 agents send to colect her too.

I think CP anchored on the island where they were staying. At least that is the impression I got from the panel she started revealing her trade.

[hide][/hide]

@Quexinos:

She was eating kinda fast, idk if you noticed. If she did it quick enough, they couldn't get away. Also doesn't them being kidnapped ALSO mean they just stood there?

Not really, even if they all ran, CP would have chased them. Unlike Linlin,which seems she devoured everything from her initial position. The main thing is: the couldn't get away works fine if it was only Carmel that got eaten, or hell, let's say 4-5 kids + Carmel. There are around 23 people she ate. That's quite a few people to go through to not realize the danger you are in. And if it was not, then they all did deserve to get eaten.

@pRopaaNS:

The one likely to have been eaten is Caramel, because it's the most likely way how BM gained her DF powers. As for children, I just don't see why would they sit still and let themselves to be eaten too, most likely they all fled as far away as possible, whoever survived. On that note I think we might get confirmation for what happened by hearing the story from one of those survivors.

However, we have been introduced to the method of how fruits get reincarnated. In Punk Hazard and later with the Mera Mera. Why the death by eating would bypass this method? It sounds like an overly convenient method to justify Linlin inheriting Carmel's power. And it raises questions too: Is this something only Linlin could do? How will this affect the story in the present/future. The reason I mention the present is because if this method is left only on the past then it seems even more convenient. And the same way the fruit transferring was introduced, it then affected the protagonists in forcing Luffy to compete. So the introduction of transfer through cannibalism should affect the protagonist in some way, be it someone they hold dear being threatened to be eaten for their power. Which then makes it an over complicated process because you can just kill the devil fruit user.

It is a cool concept, but one that either needs further development.

@vlad:

if you look closely, you could see that everyone carmel and the kids have one sweet either in their hand or infront of them makes sense to me

Yeah 23 people and Linlin is able to hold 1-2 Semla per hand, that should give enough time for everyone that had not been eaten to drop the sweet and get out of there.

@Dranza:

I think how the chapter pans out there's little left for the imagination…all the kids and Caramel are shown holding a croquembouche. Then it say her eyes were so filled with tears of joy she couldn't see a single thing through them then it shows everyone holding up the croquembouche and offering it to her then it says that she indiscrimately ate the tables and chairs without knowledge of doing so...the CP involvement wasn't to show that the CP had some major part to play in BM's story they were shown to reveal Caramel's true nature. The likeliest scenario is that everyone was eaten.

The crown kid was eaten his and it assumes that the kids were holding to the Semla like their life depended on it.

@ARTEMlS:

Death Battle Linlin vs. Kirby confirmed!

If Linlin had shown that type of ability then it would be very evident what happened.

–-

I am not against cannibalism, but even with that straight forward answer, it brings a lot more questions than just closing the chapter. Just to show that I can support both sides: The narration mentions that this moment for Linlin was one of her happiest, if so, then Linlin animating food could be a callback to the event. She wants to recreate that sensation she felt that day and hear screams of agony as she eats.

[pRopaaNS]

@K.:

However, we have been introduced to the method of how fruits get reincarnated. In Punk Hazard and later with the Mera Mera. Why the death by eating would bypass this method? It sounds like an overly convenient method to justify Linlin inheriting Carmel's power. And it raises questions too: Is this something only Linlin could do? How will this affect the story in the present/future. The reason I mention the present is because if this method is left only on the past then it seems even more convenient. And the same way the fruit transferring was introduced, it then affected the protagonists in forcing Luffy to compete. So the introduction of transfer through cannibalism should affect the protagonist in some way, be it someone they hold dear being threatened to be eaten for their power. Which then makes it an over complicated process because you can just kill the devil fruit user.

It is a cool concept, but one that either needs further development.

I don't understand, how would eating a DF user not let you acquire his DF powers? Do you meant that the process of DF power transforming to a nearest fruit is some kind of teleportation where DF ability bypasses space itself? The DF power would be trapped inside of the new body, so it'd just make sense that it'd transfer to it.

[Kaido King of the Beasts]

Cipher Pol has quite a lot of reason to go after the Sheep's House. Carmel is retiring after selling Linlin, and her price for the future Big Mom is unprecedented. They would have a lot to gain by taking Carmel out of the picture and kidnapping all of the children - maybe they didn't take Linlin cuz she was too heavy lol

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@pRopaaNS:

I don't understand, how would eating a DF user not let you acquire his DF powers? Do you meant that the process of DF power transforming to a nearest fruit is some kind of teleportation where DF ability bypasses space itself? The DF power would be trapped inside of the new body, so it'd just make sense that it'd transfer to it.

How would the power be "trapped" within the body? Carmel's soul wouldn't be trapped in Linlin's body if Linlin did eat her.

[Koliber]

@K.:

I am not against cannibalism

Well, you meet all sorts of people, especially on the Internet. But it's the diversity that makes the world interesting… I guess?

! NIN NIN! :ninja:

[pRopaaNS]

@Kaido:

How would the power be "trapped" within the body? Carmel's soul wouldn't be trapped in Linlin's body if Linlin did eat her.

Idk about souls, but DF abilities gets transfered by eating DF, so I don't see why it couldn't happen other ways around. My point isn't that it definetly is the case, but that it not happening is less likely and I want to hear explaination why DF ability wouldn't get transfered by eating DF user.

[Lao G]

I've been thinking, if we assume that BM's memories were in fact edited by Pudding, would it be plausible to speculate that BM actually willingly asked/ordered Pudding to do something about those memories? Maybe she actually knew what happened at that point but just couldn't bear the thought and wanted to forget it?

[pRopaaNS]

@Lao:

I've been thinking, if we assume that BM's memories were in fact edited by Pudding, would it be plausible to speculate that BM actually willingly asked/ordered Pudding to do something about those memories? Maybe she actually knew what happened at that point but just couldn't bear the thought and wanted to forget it?

What exactly have she forgotten then? You mean that the flashback might be corrupted by her ability?

[K. Kira XXIII]

@pRopaaNS:

I don't understand, how would eating a DF user not let you acquire his DF powers? Do you meant that the process of DF power transforming to a nearest fruit is some kind of teleportation where DF ability bypasses space itself? The DF power would be trapped inside of the new body, so it'd just make sense that it'd transfer to it.

Because unlike the current event we have precedence on how the transferring method occurs, which was later confirmed when Doffy had the Mera Mera fruit. And yes with this method the power bypasses space itself. If you can show me another instance where a devil fruit user acquired his power through cannibalism that be good to support your argument. But let's say this is, how it was in Punk Hazard, the introduction of a new method of power transferring. What I am saying is that such method should be demonstrated, or given importance in a present/future event to establish the method and have some sort of continuity with the elements were are being presented. If it remains solely as a flashback element then it borderlines on super convenient and what stops new methods from showing up later?

[hide]
[/hide]

@Koliber:

Well, you meet all sorts of people, especially on the Internet. But it's the diversity that makes the world interesting… I guess?

! NIN NIN! :ninja:

Don't you mean: NOM NOM NOM NOM

[ARTEMlS]

Yeah, Occam's razor tells us that this well established method is the most probable. So Carmel's fruit probably went to another one nearby which then, of course, got eaten by Linlin.

[K. Kira XXIII]

@Lao:

I've been thinking, if we assume that BM's memories were in fact edited by Pudding, would it be plausible to speculate that BM actually willingly asked/ordered Pudding to do something about those memories? Maybe she actually knew what happened at that point but just couldn't bear the thought and wanted to forget it?

This is also very likely, imagine a tragic moment where Big Mom could not stop herself from eating and lived with it for many years. Until she asked Pudding to repress those memories. My only concern with this is that Lola's trust in Big Mom was explained as her own naivete, if we had been shown that over the years Mama had become much more cruel, then we could see this memory suppression making her believe she was abandoned, and incur her resentment to explain her current behavior.

More than likely, a way to make Pudding's power relevant beside story exposition.

[Razh]

@HaxeyeMihawk:

Not necessarily, CP0 being implied to be business partners of underworld criminals is enough to further set them up as villains in a future arc without further complicating things and misleading the readers that CP0 swooped in out of nowhere and took everyone away. Where this CP0 theory really falls face flat is that Big Mom was the most valuable orphan in terms of combat potential so why in hell would CP0 swoop in and take everyone but her?

Hey, leave something for the second flashback. The one where we see everything.

I don't think we needed to be spoon fed the information that CP0 dealt with criminals. What good is secret police if they can't even gather intelligence properly?

So, I'm like 100% positive they didn't just appear for sport.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Lao:

I've been thinking, if we assume that BM's memories were in fact edited by Pudding, would it be plausible to speculate that BM actually willingly asked/ordered Pudding to do something about those memories? Maybe she actually knew what happened at that point but just couldn't bear the thought and wanted to forget it?

Yeah, I thought of that a little bit. But don't see why she'd suddenly ask for Pudding to change her memories after living with them for like 40 years.

Unless she asked Pudding to check her memories, since she might not have remembered everything clearly, and then got terribly depressed when she saw it. Or wanted to do something that would jeopardize Totland. Then Pudding might have opted to solve things differently.

[Lao G]

@Razh:

Hey, leave something for the second flashback. The one where we see everything.
Yeah, I thought of that a little bit. But don't see why she'd suddenly ask for Pudding to change her memories after living with them for like 40 years.

Unless she asked Pudding to check her memories, since she might not have remembered everything clearly, and then got terribly depressed when she saw it. Or wanted to do something that would jeopardize Totland. Then Pudding might have opted to solve things differently.

It may have been a case of BM not being able to get a hold of the Memo Memo fruit. As in, she wanted to get rid of the memories for the majority of her life but just didn't have any way of doing it due to not having the right fruit for it.

@K.:

This is also very likely, imagine a tragic moment where Big Mom could not stop herself from eating and lived with it for many years. Until she asked Pudding to repress those memories. My only concern with this is that Lola's trust in Big Mom was explained as her own naivete, if we had been shown that over the years Mama had become much more cruel, then we could see this memory suppression making her believe she was abandoned, and incur her resentment to explain her current behavior.

More than likely, a way to make Pudding's power relevant beside story exposition.

I get your point, but would BM instantly forgetting that specific part of her childhood really change her personality that much? No matter what happened tha day, fact is, BM was left alone. Whether she ate everyone, or they were taken away, or something else happened, BM lost her only friends and "mother" at a very young age. The giants inhabiting the island she was in hated her, and without Carmel to protect BM from the giants' wrath (well, it's the other way around actually) I doubt LinLin had it easy the period of time following Carmel's disappearance. Plus her size and destructive nature can easily generate complete animosity from the human society as well, we've been shown just how cruel the OP world can be. Those circumstances would screw anyone over. I don't think the events of that day was what made BM cruel, rather it was the consequences and the events that followed. Whatever actually transpired in that one scene only added to BM's inner suffering.

Point is, BM would have turned out the way she is now regardless of whether she remembered the details of that day. In fact, she might as well have been more cruel back in the day.

[Shadow5963]

BM will be the first dead by two devil fruits shown.

[Quexinos]

@ARTEMlS:

Yeah, Occam's razor tells us that this well established method is the most probable. So Carmel's fruit probably went to another one nearby which then, of course, got eaten by Linlin.

So… she died during the birthday party? What did they do with the body? Why did they do anything with the body? Why not just leave it there and take the kids?

[uniaka ikuzakas]

@Shadow5963:

BM will be the first dead by two devil fruits shown.

For sure more op characters should try this in OP. why bother fighting monsters like bm and kaidou and lose when you can just prepare some meal with a fruit in it.

I want some op characters try this for once. Only question is where will capone and luffy fiind afruit.

[Razh]

@Quexinos:

So… she died during the birthday party? What did they do with the body? Why did they do anything with the body? Why not just leave it there and take the kids?

Those are all questions that could be answered in an extended flashback.

Think of it this way. If BM's memory wasn't altered, there's no way we'll see any kind of cinclusion regarding Caramel's fate. Nobody who was there is close by in the present. The flashback stays ambigous, because it is ambigous, whether you like it or not. BM never finds out why Caramel left. There is no closure of any kind. It's like if Luffy never rung that bell in Skypiea.

But if it was altered, we might get a better view of what happened. We might actually see what happened to Caramel. BM might actually achieve a certain peace of mind. And if it happens thanks to Luffy or someone else from the alliance, then BM actually ends up owing them in a way. I imagine they could be allowed to leave but be treated like enemies in any future encounter. It would be a nice middle ground.

Btw, after all these different devil fruits and effects, isn't it possible there's a devil fruit that allows you to transfer your devil fruit to another person? You know, if there is one, soul fruit would be a prime contender for the spot. If it can take part of a life of any individual, it could theoretically allow the user to transfer all of his life to another person. Possibly together with the ability. What if Caramel realised she had a soft spot for BM after all and sacrificed her life?

But yeah, just pure speculation at this point. I do think that there's no way you can get a devil fruit by eating a devil fruit user. User dies, ability migrates to a next fruit. Method of dying is irrelevant. Stab, slash, beheading, getting shot, eaten alive…
BM was presumably all alone on the island. She might have eaten anything she found to survive. Including exotic fruits that taste like shit.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

[K. Kira XXIII]

@Lao:

I get your point, but would BM instantly forgetting that specific part of her childhood really change her personality that much? No matter what happened tha day, fact is, BM was left alone. Whether she ate everyone, or they were taken away, or something else happened, BM lost her only friends and "mother" at a very young age.

Even though the end result is the same, the method would bring different reactions to Linlin. There is a difference between being abandoned and you causing the death of your friends, foster parent and being left alone. So if she ate them, Big Mom would have grown resenting and blaming herself for the atrocity she could not stop. If she lived her entire life with this guilt, in a depressed state, then changing the method through her memories might not change whom she is, but all that sadness and anger would be directed to Carmel and her friends instead of herself. Which strings nicely with her current behavior of "no one is allowed to leave" and her whole roulette charade.

I would put Ussop as an example when Robin was turned into a toy. When that happened, Ussop lost a part of himself. This is evident because he mentions: "I am not going to die for this hero bullshit" The man that created a hero to go save her friend. So, yes, I believe that through your memories/experiences is what molds whom you become and how you act. Like you mention, would she have changed that much? Maybe not, maybe even if she resented herself she would have still been cruel. At the end of the day, Ussop did act heroic.

andThe giants inhabiting the island she was in hated her, and without Carmel to protect BM from the giants' wrath (well, it's the other way around actually) I doubt LinLin had it easy the period of time following Carmel's disappearance.[ Plus her size and destructive nature can easily generate complete animosity from the human society as well, we've been shown just how cruel the OP world can be. Those circumstances would screw anyone over. I don't think the events of that day was what made BM cruel, rather it was the consequences and the events that followed. Whatever actually transpired in that one scene only added to BM's inner suffering. Point is, BM would have turned out the way she is now regardless of whether she remembered the details of that day. In fact, she might as well have been more cruel back in the day.[/quote]

Linlin and the rest were already exiled from Elbaf so there are no giants on the island they were inhabiting. Not sure if there are humans on the island. I think Linlin was completely alone after the events.

[Fleet_Admiral_Akainu]

@Seafarer33:

While I do favor this outcome I have to admit that, in lack of irrefutable proof, there are a number of equally plausible ways for the children and Mother to have vanished. I would tend to rule out CP0 directly intervening because had they done so, they would most certainly have tried to capture Linlin as well and that would likely leave battle marks all around if not a couple dead CP agents. But Mother manipulating the other children into pulling a fast one on Linlin could be a thing.

The one decisive factor at the moment is that I have yet to read a convincing explanation of what Oda's purpose would be in involving CP0 and/or keeping any of the children alive as government soldiers or whatever. Suppose they did and Big Mom eventually learns the truth: how would that change the dynamics of her relation to the Straw Hats or anybody else? Would it make her question her status as a Yonkou and sixty years of ruthless piracy? Their disappearance largely defined her character, but their return is likely not going to change it and so I'd prefer them to stay gone.

We may find out about this in an upcoming flashback, just as we may never learn the truth and keep the memory for what it is : a grey, uncertain cornerstone of Big Mom's character. Either way, Greg often says Oda likes to make his readership speculate about events: despite all the shortcomings of this arc, I'll tip my hat to the man and reckon this much was handled masterfully.

What seems more probable:Big Mom getting the Soul Soul fruit hability via cannibalism or getting it after conveniently eating a near fruit right after Mother Carmel ran away/got abducted and (later)murdered by some mysterious organization off panel?
Particularly,I believe that the non-inception scenario fits better in terms of probability.

[Kaido King of the Beasts]

@Fleet_Admiral_Akainu:

What seems more probable:Big Mom getting the Soul Soul fruit hability via cannibalism or getting it after conveniently eating a near fruit right after Mother Carmel ran away/got abducted and (later)murdered by some mysterious organization off panel?
Particularly,I believe that the non-inception scenario fits better in terms of probability.

It's far more probable that Big Mom ate the fruit after Carmel died instead of got the power by eating Carmel, since that's how DF transfer works.

[K. Kira XXIII]

Say what you will, but if inheritance through cannibalism was meant to be taken from last chapter, then I would find it very unlikely that we wouldn't have been shown a panel with Linlin exhibiting her new powers. A second flashback can show that, but if this method was to be established, then not showing even a hint that Linlin had inherited the powers seems weird. I would have expected to happen at an unconscious level

[Kzmrlo]

This post is deleted!

[Shadow5963]

@uniaka:

For sure more op characters should try this in OP. why bother fighting monsters like bm and kaidou and lose when you can just prepare some meal with a fruit in it.

I want some op characters try this for once. Only question is where will capone and luffy fiind afruit.

They dont have to find a fruit there are plenty of df users in that party. If on the happiest day of her life her eyes got clouded and she ate her entire orphanage, it may very well happend in her biggest anger ever.

[zuppamann]

If BM gained DF ability eating Carmel, than another way to kill her is to make her eat another DF user! Maybe one of her sons.

[Seafarer33]

@Kaido:

It's far more probable that Big Mom ate the fruit after Carmel died instead of got the power by eating Carmel, since that's how DF transfer works.

I would nuance this by saying fruit "reincarnation" is the only DF transfer method that we currently know of. While it most certainly is the vanilla way that has kept DF around for centuries, I don't think it was explicitly stated anywhere to be the one and only possibility and so I wouldn't put it past Oda to reveal more in future DF exposition scenes. Especially after we've seen advanced science can and does meddle with DF powers and the hint of lineage factors.

If it turns out that one way or the other Mother did die on the island, it is plausible that a starving Linlin might soon thereafter have eaten her reincarnated fruit. (Although I would still prefer the other, more dramatic, explanation because it adds a dark flavour to the whole Devil Fruit business)
If however Mother fled or was captured by CP0 and died years later a world away, then Linlin receiving her power which she was not even aware existed in the first place would feel like a completely forced coincidence.

[Fleet_Admiral_Akainu]

@Kaido:

It's far more probable that Big Mom ate the fruit after Carmel died instead of got the power by eating Carmel, since that's how DF transfer works.

Our current knowledge about DFs is still very limited.
We don't know the exact process that explains how Spandam's sword got the Zou Zou no mi hability,but we can definitely assume that wasn't after eating a fruit, correct?
We also can assume that the DF essence tends to leave a dead body and get inside the nearest fruit until it is consumed,immediately causing a reaction within the living body of the person that ate the fruit.
But… what if a DF user actually dies INSIDE someone's body,instead of dying outside?Should the fruit still be a necessary vessel in this equation?The DF's essence,once leaving the user's digested body, wouldn't already be exactly where it should be-inside a new living organism capable of manifesting it's properties?
According to chapter 698(I checked cnet's translation this time),Vegapunk unveiled the path that would later lead to the SAD(main element of the artificial DF) creation through the "Bloodline Factor theory."Although we still don't know the full details revolving this theory,we may assume that there's a factor in the blood of living beings that reacts with the DF's essence once they meet each other.
Got my point now?This reaction here is the key.If a DF user dies inside someone's stomach,the DF's essence probably wouldn't need to travel searching for a fruit vessel: the blood factor of the new host would be right there ready to embrace it.And well...even if we assume a diverse scenario, in which the DF powers come from the reaction caused by the blood factor and the DF essence modified somehow after it's interacion with a fruit component,it's not a strecht to imagine that the croquembouche Linlin was eating had pieces of fruits inside it.So,yeah…these are my basic thoughts about this matter.
But like a said above...unfortunately,our current knowledge about DFs is still very limited.

[K. Kira XXIII]

Even if it is a new method of transferring powers, this is Oda we are talking here. The man that will draw Brook wearing a mask before he broke the frame and after he jumped off the cake, cleverly hidden behind other characters. Check the 4th panel between the "UWA!" and the guest being attacked:

[hide][/hide]

So I find it highly surprising that if this is a new method that he wouldn't even hint that she got the power after she ate them. It would be like seeing Doffy get the Mera Mera but Oda had not shown us the scenes at Punk Hazard, yes he can do it after the fact, but usually you build story elements before. And like I have said in my previous posts, if it is: it has to affect the current storyline in some way. The same way presenting us the method in Punk Hazard led to the tournament in Dressrosa.

[Lao G]

@K.:

Even though the end result is the same, the method would bring different reactions to Linlin. There is a difference between being abandoned and you causing the death of your friends, foster parent and being left alone. So if she ate them, Big Mom would have grown resenting and blaming herself for the atrocity she could not stop. If she lived her entire life with this guilt, in a depressed state, then changing the method through her memories might not change whom she is, but all that sadness and anger would be directed to Carmel and her friends instead of herself. Which strings nicely with her current behavior of "no one is allowed to leave" and her whole roulette charade.

I would put Ussop as an example when Robin was turned into a toy. When that happened, Ussop lost a part of himself. This is evident because he mentions: "I am not going to die for this hero bullshit" The man that created a hero to go save her friend. So, yes, I believe that through your memories/experiences is what molds whom you become and how you act. Like you mention, would she have changed that much? Maybe not, maybe even if she resented herself she would have still been cruel. At the end of the day, Ussop did act heroic.

Fair enough, I was mostly pointing out that the cruelty aspect of BM's character would not really suffer such significant changes, hence I don't think the Chiffon situation in your previous post is an indicator of anything.

Linlin and the rest were already exiled from Elbaf so there are no giants on the island they were inhabiting. Not sure if there are humans on the island. I think Linlin was completely alone after the events.

Sorry, I was under the impression that the location of the new House of Lambs was in a different giant settlement for some reason:/ Yeah, she was most likely left completely alone.

[Seafarer33]

@Lao:

I was under the impression that the location of the new House of Lambs was in a different giant settlement for some reason:/ Yeah, she was most likely left completely alone.

I've been wondering too, until someone pointed out the similarities with Totland. I think what's misguiding is that we saw giants build the place and the double-scale of the doors (note the giant gates with a tiny human-sized door at their bottom. Likely intended to allow Linlin inside and possibly Jinbei's lifeline when times come to board the Sunny, but it does make it look like a giant settlement).

@K.:

yes he can do it after the fact, but usually you build story elements before.

As far as story elements go, I'd say they have been there for quite a while. We've been aware for a few years already that there is more to Devil Fruits than meets the eye - everything Akainu references above - and we know that somewhere down the line Big Mom inherits Mother's soul power. It's at least enough to hazard a few wild guesses. Besides, all of this might only be a hint to future revelations, when at long last we learn everything there is to know about DF powers.
I can't however provide a good argument on hinting that Linlin got that power, except maybe that Oda doesn't always spell everything out right from the start. Heh, even the disguised Brook trick was subject to controversy precisely because many a reader would have wanted it to be hinted a couple chapters earlier. :happy:
Either way, I think the scene is a lot more interesting this way. Because the implications are so horrible, we want it to be ambiguous and the subject of hot debate until further information sheds a new light on it. I'm expecting another flashback later on, possibly from the point of view of a different character, that will explain what really happened that day. I'll be fine with both options, because the mechanics of how Big Mom inherited her power are really secondary compared to how Mother died

[K. Kira XXIII]

@Lao:

Fair enough, I was mostly pointing out that the cruelty aspect of BM's character would not really suffer such significant changes, hence I don't think the Chiffon situation in your previous post is an indicator of anything.

Not sure which aspect of the Chiffon situation you are talking about. But, I agree that that her overall personality would not change dramatically, this is further evidenced because there has never been a mention of Big Mom becoming cruel or that her cruelty had increased in the recent years. My point was mainly that the target of her resentment would be different and that could lead to different mind sets.

Sorry, I was under the impression that the location of the new House of Lambs was in a different giant settlement for some reason:/ Yeah, she was most likely left completely alone.

Not sure why the apology, do I come across as upset?

@Seafarer33:

As far as story elements go, I'd say they have been there for quite a while. We've been aware for a few years already that there is more to Devil Fruits than meets the eye - everything Akainu references above - and we know that somewhere down the line Big Mom inherits Mother's soul power. It's at least enough to hazard a few wild guesses. Besides, all of this might only be a hint to future revelations, when at long last we learn everything there is to know about DF powers.
I can't however provide a good argument on hinting that Linlin got that power, except maybe that Oda doesn't always spell everything out right from the start. Heh, even the disguised Brook trick was subject to controversy precisely because many a reader would have wanted it to be hinted a couple chapters earlier. :happy:

Yes the mystery of devil fruits has always been there, but look at how much effort and emphasis has been put to explore the method presented in Punk Hazard. Oda might not want to spell everything, but he definitely does put at least something. With the fruit transferring method we got those images a fruit transforming into a devil fruit in Punk Hazard, then Dressrosa's coliseum prize and then we have Burguess that is there to steal devil fruit powers. Even during Fishman Island we are told that they are hunting for devil fruit users and right after Punk Hazard we see Burguess carrying a bag of something. As you can see, there is a lot of things developed towards the idea of stealing devil fruit users with the already established method.

The Brook example is a good one, but as I mentioned in my previous post; there is an indication that Brook was wearing a mask. A tiny little panel among the chaos brought forth by Luffy's entrance. Count Mario debated that there should have been even more, but no one can deny that there was something. So I agree that Oda does not want to spell everything out, but he also does not go to the other extreme of not even mentioning it at all.

First we see him come out with the other Luffys without wearing the mask.

[hide][/hide]

Then among the crowd, we can identify his suit, but his face looks weird. Mainly, it looks like he has eyes.

[hide][/hide]

Finally, he exposes himself and we know why his face looks weird.

[hide][/hide]

That is why I find it extremely weird that he wouldn't shows us a tiny hint that Linlin inherited the powers during the flashback.

Either way, I think the scene is a lot more interesting this way. Because the implications are so horrible, we want it to be ambiguous and the subject of hot debate until further information sheds a new light on it. I'm expecting another flashback later on, possibly from the point of view of a different character, that will explain what really happened that day. I'll be fine with both options, because the mechanics of how Big Mom inherited her power are really secondary compared to how Mother died

I also expect another flashback.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

I would just like to add, that I hope that Luffy gives Linlin the Garp treatment for being so loud:

"Would you, SHUT UP!"

[desa]

@Razh:

Who said anything about giving up on selling.

They drug BM with semla, go and hide, CP0 comes to collect BM, Caramel and children return (or whatever she planned out).

That could have been the plan, anyway. In the meantime something went wrong.

And what's the deal with CP0. There's no way that plot thread would have just been cut. They'd come after BM sooner or later. Not like they could have forgotten, or didn't even bother to check if she was there.

Carmel's stuff are in the ground.

Of course I could imagine some kind of scenario where Carmel calls them to take her on the birthday after they pretend to have the money. They kill Carmel since she's useless, get the kids and after someone try to get Linlin they just get instantly crushed.

Of course there's the question of why the hell they would take Carmel's body? There's no perfect theory and pretty much any scenarios has weird little things in them if you search hard enough. The question is then what does Big Mom not being a cannibal even bring?

The Government took her friends and mother. Why would that motivate the 60 years old woman to suddenly change her ways. Wouldn't killing those she loved by accident in her frenzy be more likely to cause that. If she believed she killed them and the news was a relief but in this case all it does is tell her that the government is the one that took it away from her. Luffy still destroyed her cake, Bege still betrayed her, Luffy has still declare war on her and ruined her tea party.

What does the kids survival bring except some vague "My mom/dad was raised by a nurse some 60 years ago?"

[Shobu Yoruichi]

Ok Oda, here's a little mistake:

!

We can see that Linlin is eating a Croquembouche of Semlas like a crazy bitch over Newgate's dead body, and we can infer, along with the sfxs of screams and the hands of the children feeding her, that she ate them all… why she could not tell what she was eating there? when:

!

here she without a problem within a eating disorder she can identify what she puts on her mouth?

Youngs have better taste than olders, bad there Oda… but is a nice touch that the place where the birthday was, is indeed Whole Cake Island, well done.

Now Brook needs to play Binns Sake and Sanji make the cake... yet the moment when Pekoms tries to stop Momma will be my favorite, i hope a good performance of Luffy on that time.

Regular chapter, the spoils were all, and i don't give a shit about Carmel, she's fodder just like Cp0 in this chapter, can't believe wasted her life doing what she don't likes, still i think i've read "Mountain Witch" somewhere before, but can't remember.

[KageKageKing]

@Shobu:

Ok Oda, here's a little mistake:

! http://i996.mangareader.net/one-piece/867/one-piece-9369757.jpghttp://i999.mangareader.net/one-piece/867/one-piece-9369763.jpg

We can see that Linlin is eating a Croquembouche of Semlas like a crazy bitch over Newgate's dead body, and we can infer, along with the sfxs of screams and the hands of the children feeding her, that she ate them all… why she could not tell what she was eating there? when:

! http://i8.mangareader.net/one-piece/829/one-piece-7694149.jpg

here she without a problem within a eating disorder she can identify what she puts on her mouth?

Youngs have better taste than olders, bad there Oda… but is a nice touch that the place where the birthday was, is indeed Whole Cake Island, well done.

Now Brook needs to play Binns Sake and Sanji make the cake... yet the moment when Pekoms tries to stop Momma will be my favorite, i hope a good performance of Luffy on that time.

Dude, she is eating Croquembouche at the flashback. But in present time there is no Croquwmbouche at all.

It's hardly a mistake.

[Kaido King of the Beasts]

@Shobu:

here she without a problem within a eating disorder she can identify what she puts on her mouth?

It's not a mistake if she didn't eat the others ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Shobu Yoruichi]

@Kaido:

It's not a mistake if she didn't eat the others ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

You know, i was reading prior pages of the thread and this:

@Kaido:

Huh, there's definitely some sort of memory tampering going on here - Carmel's actions are certainly a conundrum. Interested to see where this leads.

It would make it fit like ring on a finger.

Sort of like with Harry Potter and the plot going on with Dumbledore trying to get the real memory about Tom asking about Horcruxes. Pudding-chwan maybe edited Linlin's memory in order to become the sadness of conect Semla to killing Carmel, to just leave her with a memory of her happiest birthday to celebrate the same thing on the same place.

But it's just a theory D:

[blue-san]

Next chapter we are probably going to see a real mayhem…

[Fraco]

or a real cliffhanger

[Schabrak]

A cliffhanger every 1 1/2 chapters isn't enough already?

[KageKageKing]

Don't every chapter ends with a cliffhanger?

[Lucky Dragon]

I enjoy character quirks that can be written off as silly or unimportant getting fleshed out later on. We've known croquembouche is Linlin's favorite food since chapter 829. It was nice to find out why with this flashback, along with croquembouche playing a role as a source of conflict in her personal history. It's a comfort food through the connection with a cherished memory, so much so she needs it for peace of mind. This flashback really puts Linlin's dream into perspective too. Her goal is to pretty much recreate the time in her life when she was happiest.

[Riquelme]

I think Big Mom memory was altered between she realizing she ate everything including the table and everyone disappearing. There is a possibility that after she finished eat there was Cp0 taking away the kids and she had a fight with them, during that time she learns of Mother Caramel true nature. Its possible also that Mother Caramel had a change of heart and was killed by Cp0 Big Mom got in a rage attacked them they then decided that she was too dangerous even for the marines and left her on the island.

Mad theory suppose she wants her family to be at the same level as her because she ended up eating her friends because they were smaller than her and she didn't realize during the happiest time of her life:ninja:

[Dranza]

@Riquelme:

I think Big Mom memory was altered between she realizing she ate everything including the table and everyone disappearing. There is a possibility that after she finished eat there was Cp0 taking away the kids and she had a fight with them, during that time she learns of Mother Caramel true nature. Its possible also that Mother Caramel had a change of heart and was killed by Cp0 Big Mom got in a rage attacked them they then decided that she was too dangerous even for the marines and left her on the island.

Mad theory suppose she wants her family to be at the same level as her because she ended up eating her friends because they were smaller than her and she didn't realize during the happiest time of her life:ninja:

I like your way of thinking, I can get behind this.

[BellisarioFaith]

Comparisons, yo~

• Both scanlations call the first spell Mother Carmel uses "Gevurah". The official translation uses "Geburts". Then, for the next one (which may be part of the same spell, not sure), Mangastream uses "Tsaalk", Jaimini's Box uses "Stark", and VIZ, "Tag".
• Both scanlations also have Pandora greet Mother Carmel with "Yes, Mother" while the official uses "Hi, Mother!"
• The MS translation has Carmel say the Sun God "made all right,", JB = "oversees everything", and VIZ, "calmed the disaster."
• MS comments that Mother Carmel's smile "never once faltered". JB and VIZ say that her smile grew even warmer/brighter.
• The lines about the reputation of the House of Lambs and the children's foster parents is a bit different in the official: "To the rest of the world, the House of Lambs was a place where the pious Mother would miraculously reform problem children until they were ready for a good home."
• Carmel's line about "All you CP types care about is providing protection to the Tenryuubito" in MS seems to be referring to her previous statement of Linlin being an Admiral/Fleet Admiral, but in JB and VIZ, she's instead saying that, if Linlin were to be a Cipher Pol member, she'd provide the greatest protection that the Celestial Dragons could ever want.
• Also in MS, Carmel states that she pulled a fast one on the Marines, but in JB and VIZ, she more-or-less states that she and the Navy together set up an act [for the rest of the world] (saying "the Navy and I arranged that little stunt" in the official).
• Again, MS-mistake, they say Mother Carmel recruited John Giant for the Navy. JB and VIZ clarify that it's really "Jun Giant".
• Both MS and VIZ have Carmel stating that orphans make good spies, due to having no family history and thus no strings attached, but JB instead has her say that she's the perfect intelligence worker, who can't stand those orphans.
• After all three translations have Carmel announce that selling Linlin is her last deal, JB and VIZ have her add that she'll have [Cipher Pol] pay up.
• Carmel is called "Mountain Witch" in the scanlations, and "Mountain Hag" in the official.
• The official translation also has Linlin mispronounce "croquembouche", saying it as "croka-boosh".