Chapter 1,049: The World That Should Be

[andre]

@Greg:

Oda didn't hit the beats he usually hits and he didn't tie up the action (yet) with a meaningful 'bigger picture' emotional moment like he almost always does.

It's not a case of Oda not doing what I wanted him to do.

It's a case of Oda not doing what he usually does.

But, that's just me.

I think the best comparison is Enel's defeat. Oda built up the importance of Shandia and Skypiea's history and truly capitalized on it with the last hit, the bell, and Luffy's projected image. There's none of that with Kaido's final hit, even though we have so much more emotionally invested into his defeat. I do think Oda tried to make something of a callback with Kaido being buried in the ground, but there's not the same emotional resonance and to be frank, the art didn't satisfactorily display what was happening.

[uniaka ikuzakas]

https://imgur.com/a/uFpzOYL

[Johnny B. Decent]

The Weakling Trio got get some Busoshoku Haki quick, because they ain't cutting it anymore against people like Ulti and Page One.

[andre]

I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I thought Zoro vs King was great. I wish Queen vs Sanji was as good, even if as Lemony said, the character writing was on point.

[Robby]

@Rean:

then why would say, the Tobi roppo getting back up again (a theory that made 0 sense when I 1st heard it) make it more tense when we've seen them get their asses kicked once already?

Because in this case, them getting up again would be through awakening specifically, giving them both a power boost and a soft reset on their damage, while the heroes were already weakened. That would ABSOLUTELY raise the stakes in the case of Zoan transformation… it wouldn't just be the half dead villains getting back up and stumbling around as was the case with Kanjuro.l

That one started after the Nami and Usopp fights where Nami had her win stolen by Big Mom and Usopp did literally nothing. The hope was "they barely squeaked by beating these guys with help... now they have to face the tougher versions without a Yonkou doing the work for them and actually win on their own this time! ...but Big Mom did soften them up so the power scaling isn't totally broken.

So it made sense in that way. Similarly, "Franky beat his opponent, but now his mech is gone! And his opponent is back and stronger than before!"

Awakening giving the villains a refresh while the heroes are already topped out and wounded IS dramatic and WOULD raise the stakes. How shonen works, second forms are scarier and stronger.

So I understand where that came from after how utterly dissapointing the Nami and Usopp fights were, but anyone that kept holding to that after Franky and Jinbe and Robin finished theirs, not so much.

In this case its only the heroes that got awakenings to turn the tables around and get second winds.

[TLC]

@kevo_koma:

Oh boy Robby.

I think you got me completely wrong.

Real world Race, and King being Black was absolutely the furthest thing from my mind.

I keep mocking the race thing because, there is nothing Zoro could have known when he discovered his race that he could not have known by simple observation and just being a good fighter.

Understanding his race should not have factored into the fight whatsoever.

Zoro could have just observed and used his experience to beat his opponents.

Which is what he did but it naturally took him a while because getting high defense when your fire is burning or high mobility when it is not is not exactly intuitive. i don't really understand what your are complaining about, that Zoro didn't just immediately know how to beat a new race that is so rare that not even Big Mom has one?

@kevo_koma:

Its why devil fruits were so fun in the beginning.

You didn't need to know the properties of sand and its history to beat Crocodile. Luffy just observed that water made sand tangible and he went with it.

He learned this after he was able to grab Crocodile's hand with his bloodied hand during the first fight.

I like how you're ignoring the fact that Luffy spent the entire first fight trying to punch Crocodile (and even tried to eat him at one point) to no avail and it was only after getting a hook through the chest and luckily spilling the container of water onto him that Crocodile himself punctured with his hook accidentally that Luffy realized his weakness.

@kevo_koma:

I just think its hilarious that Zoro somehow had to learn about his opponents race in order to beat him.

It was the first time that ever happened and it makes no sense.

Man trying to understand your enemies' abilities and weaknesses is stupid. Just observe them for two seconds and figure out what you have to do and beat them, it's so easy.

[Rean]

@Robby:

Because in this case, them getting up again would be through awakening specifically, giving them both a power boost and a soft reset on their damage, while the heroes were already weakened. That would ABSOLUTELY raise the stakes in the case of Zoan transformation… it wouldn't just be the half dead villains getting back up and stumbling around as was the case with Kanjuro.l

That one started after the Nami and Usopp fights where Nami had her win stolen by Big Mom and Usopp did literally nothing. The hope was "they barely squeaked by beating these guys with help... now they have to face the tougher versions without a Yonkou doing the work for them and actually win on their own this time! ...but Big Mom did soften them up so the power scaling isn't totally broken.

So it made sense in that way. Similarly, "Franky beat his opponent, but now his mech is gone! And his opponent is back and stronger than before!"

Awakening giving the villains a refresh while the heroes are already topped out and wounded IS dramatic and WOULD raise the stakes. How shonen works, second forms are scarier and stronger.

So I understand where that came from after how utterly dissapointing the Nami and Usopp fights were, but anyone that kept holding to that after Franky and Jinbe and Robin finished theirs, not so much.

In this case its only the heroes that got awakenings to turn the tables around and get second winds.

Then why not have them awaken at the end of the fight instead of going on this whole charade of false KOs?

I also happen to think that Awakenings are too valuable a concept for us to see anyone who's less than a Yonko commander, you need rarity to make Awakenings special, and let's be honest, frigging Sasaki should not be mentioned anywhere near the word Awakening.

I think Oda probably regrets making that crew all-Zoan tbh, easily the least interesting subclass of DFs, which clearly limited his options.

[DatYute]

@Rean:

Then why not have them awaken at the end of the fight instead of going on this whole charade of false KOs?

I also happen to think that Awakenings are too valuable a concept for us to see anyone who's less than a Yonko commander, you need rarity to make Awakenings special, and let's be honest, frigging Sasaki should not be mentioned anywhere near the word Awakening.

I think Oda probably regrets making that crew all-Zoan tbh, easily the least interesting subclass of DFs, which clearly limited his options.

except sasaki and whoswho were next in line to challenge for a position against the calamities, implying they were at least in the ball park(though obviously not there yet)

them being absolutely destroyed by franky and jinbei makes them seem like no big deal, but they were pretty much the next strongest on the crew after the calamities

[Monquito]

Sasaki turned General Franky into scrap, that was pretty big deal tho.

[Rean]

@DatYute:

except sasaki and whoswho were next in line to challenge for a position against the calamities, implying they were at least in the ball park(though obviously not there yet)

them being absolutely destroyed by franky and jinbei makes them seem like no big deal, but they were pretty much the next strongest on the crew after the calamities

Based on what we've seen of all 4 characters, King and Queen would wipe the floor with the other 2. Especially King.

[Xelloss]

@DatYute:

yeah im with you there. none of the fights in this arc have been at all satisfying

I disagree. Robin got a GREAT fight, and Jinbe vs Who's Who was also reasonably good.
As for the rest… yeah, not particularly interesting.

[DatYute]

@Xelloss:

I disagree. Robin got a GREAT fight, and Jinbe vs Who's Who was also reasonably good.
As for the rest… yeah, not particularly interesting.

jinbei whoswho was alright but the fact that it ended right there without much of a challenge really takes away from it imo

[Deicide]

Robin fight was great but there's something lacking. When it ended, I expected more. I think it was because Black Maria's abilities went unexplained, so I was expecting some twists in that regard (at the time I thought her torso was a web puppet and she was the spider, for instance). I feel it was a pretty big flaw to not explain the nature of her powers in the story. We only got an explanation in SBS, and it showed a lot of wasted potential (so, she manipulates her form throught chemicals, and that explains her illusion mist, but we got a chemist that barely incorporates it into her fighting style).

Jinbe vs Who's Who was fine but didn't feel like a decisive battle. Again, I was expecting Jinbe to have another fight, most likely against Smoothie once the BM Pirates arrived. Nope, it was just that. Oh.

Franky vs Sasaki's choreography was really good but the fight was too short. Sasaki destroying the General Shogun was pretty impressive, but Franky defeated him too fast once he exited the cockpit. Unprotected Franky vs Sasaki would really up the tension instead.

Ulti and Page One were impressive, but it was Big Mom who defeated them, not Usopp or Nami. Zeus was in autopilot in the finishing move.

In the end, the entire Beast Pirates didn't feel worthy of being an Emperor crew. Big Mom Pirates were far more menacing, varied and interesting, and yet they were kept out of the battle. Bummer.

[The D.]

I still love that Franky basically one shot sasaki once he was out of the shogun. I swear that thing holds him back more than it provides a power up.

[Ivotas]

@The:

I still love that Franky basically one shot sasaki once he was out of the shogun. I swear that thing holds him back more than it provides a power up.

Franky Shogun is basically a gag Oda tells again and again not relising it get's less funny the more often you hear it. The hell with that big lump of metal!

[DatYute]

@Deicide:

In the end, the entire Beast Pirates didn't feel worthy of being an Emperor crew. Big Mom Pirates were far more menacing, varied and interesting, and yet they were kept out of the battle. Bummer.

yeah this is where the feeling of dissapointment came from for me…

not only did we get a taste of big mom's crew in the previous arc but like... the beast pirates were really built up as a massive threat. the entire plan to stop doffy from producing more smiles was so that they couldn't strengthen their forces anymore or else the fight would be impossible. then we saw jack tear zou apart and look like a complete monster doing it. the crew in the actual raid failed to live up to those expectations.

[Greg]

Agreed that Robin's fight was baller. It's not like I message him week to week but that one I had to send my thoughts. I told him he did her justice after her last major 1v1 being on Skypiea. His response.

"That long ago?! Whoa!"

This guy, I swear. He's great.

[Shiebs]

@Greg:

Agreed that Robin's fight was baller. It's not like I message him week to week but that one I had to send my thoughts. I told him he did her justice after her last major 1v1 being on Skypiea. His response.

"That long ago?! Whoa!"

This guy, I swear. He's great.

Greg you should do a list ranking the best moments in all of Wano

for me outside of fights which were either great or disappointing, no real middle way in my opinion

Nami refusing to say Luffy would not be Pirate King despite the threat of death staring her in the face, and Sanji calling out to Robin, and her telling Black Maria that meant more than the world to her that he trusted her, are probably two of my absolute favs

One thing that seems to be overlooked is when Usopp tells the samurai that he doesn't understand there bushido and he'll do whatever he can to survive so they should to cause they matter, I really liked that but didn't see it get much mention

[KageKageKing]

@Deicide:

Jinbe vs Who's Who was fine but didn't feel like a decisive battle. Again, I was expecting Jinbe to have another fight, most likely against Smoothie once the BM Pirates arrived. Nope, it was just that. Oh.

You actually were expecting they to appear even though at that point they failed twice to arrive at Wano?

[Deicide]

@KageKageKing:

You actually were expecting they to appear even though at that point they failed twice to arrive at Wano?

Let's be frank here, the only thing that keeps them down there is plot convenience. It already makes no sense they waited an entire week before trying the second climb.

They are an Emperor crew. And they have enough varied powers to climb that waterfall in an instant. Don't believe me? Mont-D'or puts them in a book and flies up, because yes, he can fly while riding his books. He goes to Onigashima and releases everyone. Done.

There's also Galette there to make a butter road for them sail up. And maybe Smoothie's water powers can do stuff as well. We also saw some of them can do Geppou. And we don't even know what sort of power Compote or others there may have.

But the plot demanded them to be kept out, so they were kept out.

[Marcotty]

Cover Story - Personally suspicious Prim was kept out of this update image. Considering she's Praline's twin, wouldn't surprise me if she's responsible or working with Pudding on this.

And literally everything wrong in Wano ended up being Higurashi/the old hag Kurozumi's fault. I guess we don't need to hate and blame Kaido for as much now right?…..right? Oh, not really? Yeah I really don't get how much I'm supposed to hate Kaido anymore. Even after all this I still hate Orochi a whole lot more.

I don't really have many objections or disappointments in Kaido going down this way. The follow up is a bit more make or break though. I don't really want the government to cart him away unconscious and I don't really want Kaido to return for a final berserk or anything to let Momo bonk him on the head. I'd like to see Kaido telling Luffy he'll need to tear down the Celestial dragons someday if he really wants to make a change like this.

The island landing so fast is a bit more disappointing though. That could've been it's own chapter, but I guess it was never meant to be. Oh well, I guess the lesson is try, try, try again and eventually it'll work on the last chance you get. You can rest now Momo, just get that useless cheerleader off your back first or something.

[Robby]

I don't know how anyone could be dissapointed in the Sasaki fight… every one of the dinosaur fighters with their "this is just what dinosaurs do!" chunk of insanity were brilliant. Flying triceratops had me cracking up.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Rean:

Then why not have them awaken at the end of the fight instead of going on this whole charade of false KOs?

because then you're lulled into the false sense that the heroes have won, and then you get the "oh shit!" moment when all their hard work turns out to be nothing.

If you do it during the first fight you're then obligated to do it every following fight and it stops being a surprise by the fourth or sixth time. Do it all at once and it s sudden huge reversal. (Same for the "big mom's troops arrive" theories.) Similar to the way everyone was waiting for Kaidou's hybrid form. There was no shock or awe when it came because we KNEW it was coming.

The trick to those twists is of course the generals would have needed to be defeated much earier in the raid to not be fatigued by it all. By the time they started actually dropping it would have been even more burn out and drag… the story would have needed to pace differently for it to work.

Like back on Fishman Island it was clear the crew had powercreeped way past normal fishman so the fishmen were given super steroids to power up.

I also happen to think that Awakenings are too valuable a concept for us to see anyone who's less than a Yonko commander, you need rarity to make Awakenings special, and let's be honest, frigging Sasaki should not be mentioned anywhere near the word Awakening.

Eh, if zoan awakenings can be forced through drug use, and they lose their minds when they do it in trade for the raw strength, it would have been fine.

But obviously since the big final payofff was Law, Kidd and Luffy awakening, yeah the minions had to hold back.

If Oda had ended Nami and Usopp's fights better I don't think the issue would have been speculated much at all.

[King Cannon]

If Kaidou/Big Mom don't have Awakening, then it's fine. Maybe it's something only people can obtain with near death experiences or with a stable mentality (and we know Big Mom and Kaidou aren't the most controlled people out there). Having it be a power that a natural-born monster can't obtain would be an interesting angle on its own.

It's a problem if they DO have Awakening, but didn't use it for whatever reason. At that point, it just becomes villain stupidity.

[Ivotas]

@Deicide:

Let's be frank here, the only thing that keeps them down there is plot convenience. It already makes no sense they waited an entire week before trying the second climb.

Unless they've specifically witnessed Linlin falling into the water on top of the waterfall, they might have spent their town on ground sea level to search for her. Heck, this close to the waterfall the chances are even high that she fell down rather than being swept inwards.

Either way expecting the entire BM to have a prominent role after what King and especially Marco did is silly. We went through this things two times exactly because Oda wanted to hammer the point home that they won't have a role to play. Their reason for even being there is simply power play by Big Mom. As an Rmperor she's making a clear statement that she came to wreak some havoc if things don't go her way. That's it. If anything it's a surprise that Perospero got that much time to shine. That one would have made sense to have been kept for Carrot (and Wanda because if the clear power difference). But nope, the cat's got his tongue.

[Deicide]

@Ivotas:

Unless they've specifically witnessed Linlin falling into the water on top of the waterfall, they might have spent their town on ground sea level to search for her. Heck, this close to the waterfall the chances are even high that she fell down rather than being swept inwards.

They had her Vivre card to know she had survived. But even if you make it a problem, the timeline just doesn't fit. Kaido and Big Mom made their alliance at least 3 days before the Fire Festival. The Big Mom Pirates had all this time to be contacted and get up on the waterfall, and they did it so only when the party was already on its way. Why? Because reasons. Plot convenience.

Edit: Scratch that, the Emperor alliance was made 5 days before the raid. The Big Mom Pirates wasted five days to try to climb the waterfall.

Either way expecting the entire BM to have a prominent role after what King and especially Marco did is silly.

You didn't need the entire crew up there. Just some key ones, like Smoothie, Mont-D'or, Daifuku, Galette, Compote and maybe Amande.

As for making the arc longer… well, I'd trade it for having Orochi and Kanjuro returning from death twice, the fire Yokai's waste of time, all the Scabbards getting up after Kaido beat them and some other stuff that dragged the pacing down.

[hideoushorrendous]

@SuburbanErrorist:

I still think with all Luffy has he would still lose to a fresh Kaido.

It's clear as the sun.

[Ivotas]

@Deicide:

They had her Vivre card to know she had survived. But even if you make it a problem, the timeline just doesn't fit. Kaido and Big Mom made their alliance at least 3 days before the Fire Festival. The Big Mom Pirates had all this time to be contacted and get up on the waterfall, and they did it so only when the party was already on its way. Why? Because reasons. Plot convenience.

Edit: Scratch that, the Emperor alliance was made 5 days before the raid. The Big Mom Pirates wasted five days to try to climb the waterfall.

Oh right, it took that long. Then scratch what I said about them looking for her.

You didn't need the entire crew up there. Just some key ones, like Smoothie, Mont-D'or, Daifuku, Galette, Compote and maybe Amande.

That however doesn't change my previous point. Expecting any of them to have any role at all is silly. The arc is bloated enough even without them. They were there for Big Mom to flex her muscles. Having them kicked off two times is a clear statement from Oda, that he doesn't want them to serve any further purpose in the battles.

[Md-Martin]

I think it's amazing people still get on Greg about how he feels about "things Oda has said" or statements Greg himself made.

I love Greg, but he doesn't have ALL the info guys(just most of it)

All this talk about the Kaido fight is reminding me of the community talk around Whole Cake when the wedding didn't go as Greg predicted(of Sanji making the cake in the midst of a fight with the Big Mom Pirates).

[Cyan D. Funk]

The Big Mom pirates minus Pero and Mom are still climbing that waterfall right?

[Ivotas]

@Cyan:

The Big Mom pirates minus Pero and Mom are still climbing that waterfall right?

Since they don't seem to be taking on the Marines who are at the feet of Wano, I would say they are either still climbing of finally made it to the top. Or they just all drowned.

[Monquito]

@Ivotas:

Since they don't seem to be taking on the Marines who are at the feet of Wano, I would say they are either still climbing of finally made it to the top. Or they just all drowned.

They're probably at different spots, since the one they're using takes you directly to be in front of Onigashima, while the other Luffy and Newgate used for example, takes you to Kuri .

[Greg]

While we have some slices of insight as to the BM pirates' goings on, do recall that they are privy to world events and we don't have an exact timeline (yet) for precisely when the cover story is happening.

We know that WG is in the vicinity and that shit might be going down on WCI.

I think it's safe to keep a judgement on why they've been held back until we've seen the larger story.

If Oda doesn't address it, fair game. But we've been locked into the Strawhat crew's perspective on MAJOR on-going world events on a country closed off from the world (which was by design) so it might be best to wait and see there.

[kevo_koma]

@TLC:

Which is what he did but it naturally took him a while because getting high defense when your fire is burning or high mobility when it is not is not exactly intuitive. i don't really understand what your are complaining about, that Zoro didn't just immediately know how to beat a new race that is so rare that not even Big Mom has one?

I like how you're ignoring the fact that Luffy spent the entire first fight trying to punch Crocodile (and even tried to eat him at one point) to no avail and it was only after getting a hook through the chest and luckily spilling the container of water onto him that Crocodile himself punctured with his hook accidentally that Luffy realized his weakness.

Man trying to understand your enemies' abilities and weaknesses is stupid. Just observe them for two seconds and figure out what you have to do and beat them, it's so easy.

I never said he had to learn about it in 2 seconds.

I just think that he had to learn about his race to do so.

He could have taken weeks to learn about King's abilities and that would be ok.

I just don't see how learning about his race was relevant to the fight

[Riddler]

I mean, his abilities are due to his race. So it's impossible to separate the two, really.

And I can't believe people are now bitching about the fights in the arc. Nami and Usopp vs. Ulti and Paypay was really disappointing, of course, and I feel that both Jinbei's and Franky's fights should have been at least half a chapter longer each, though what we got was really good otherwise. And everything else was awesome. Both Zoro and Sanji's fights got way more screentime than expected, Robin's fight against Black Maria was perfection from beginning to end. And Killer vs. Hawkings and especially Kidd and Law vs. Big Mom were both surprisingly well done. Not to mention the fight against Kaido as a whole.

This arc has its problems but action-wise it did absolutely fine.

[Xelloss]

@Deicide:

Robin fight was great but there's something lacking. When it ended, I expected more. I think it was because Black Maria's abilities went unexplained, so I was expecting some twists in that regard (at the time I thought her torso was a web puppet and she was the spider, for instance). I feel it was a pretty big flaw to not explain the nature of her powers in the story. We only got an explanation in SBS, and it showed a lot of wasted potential (so, she manipulates her form throught chemicals, and that explains her illusion mist, but we got a chemist that barely incorporates it into her fighting style).

Jinbe vs Who's Who was fine but didn't feel like a decisive battle. Again, I was expecting Jinbe to have another fight, most likely against Smoothie once the BM Pirates arrived. Nope, it was just that. Oh.

Franky vs Sasaki's choreography was really good but the fight was too short. Sasaki destroying the General Shogun was pretty impressive, but Franky defeated him too fast once he exited the cockpit. Unprotected Franky vs Sasaki would really up the tension instead.

Ulti and Page One were impressive, but it was Big Mom who defeated them, not Usopp or Nami. Zeus was in autopilot in the finishing move.

In the end, the entire Beast Pirates didn't feel worthy of being an Emperor crew. Big Mom Pirates were far more menacing, varied and interesting, and yet they were kept out of the battle. Bummer.

This might be my own limit, but choreography can only do so much for me.
I loved Robin's fight because it finally gave her a strong opponent and a dangerous situation, with a physical struggle that she was able to win.

Jinbe vs Who's Who was reasonably good because of the psychology of the characters involved.

Frankie vs Sasaki was not good for me because it lacked the psychological dynamic of the fight against Senor Pink and the comedic cleverness of the Water 7 fights.

Ulti and Page One were decent opponents, but it turns out that Nami and Usopp were too weak, and Big Mom too strong, for their fights to be interesting.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Greg:

While we have some slices of insight as to the BM pirates' goings on, do recall that they are privy to world events and we don't have an exact timeline (yet) for precisely when the cover story is happening.

We know that WG is in the vicinity and that shit might be going down on WCI.

I think it's safe to keep a judgement on why they've been held back until we've seen the larger story.

If Oda doesn't address it, fair game. But we've been locked into the Strawhat crew's perspective on MAJOR on-going world events on a country closed off from the world (which was by design) so it might be best to wait and see there.

Agreed. But it would have made sense to see BM or (especially) Peros wondering why it was taking those other guys such a long time to enter Wano.

[Monquito]

Jinbro likes to keep himself informed, and was out of Wano until recently.

Along with Drake, those two could reveal some juicy information about what's been going on in the world.

[Greg]

But it would have made sense to see BM or (especially) Peros wondering why it was taking those other guys such a long time to enter Wano.

There are a number of things going on there. Some convenient for Oda, some deliberate.

First, Oda often likes to say, "Yeah maybe XYZ is happening behind the scenes, I don't know. Maybe we'll find out someday."

This is not often for major story beats, but little character/world-building and/or plot-hole filling moments.

That means it's convenient for him to explore when/if it becomes helpful/entertaining/interesting.

Strategy-wise, Oda doesn't want you focusing on the outside world. Yes, he wants you to remember it and pull up that info when HE brings it back up but for now he wants us absorbed in the main story.

Remember, we're all older people discussing One Piece with crazy levels of fandom and time dedicated to evaluating the series. WE are obviously deeply interested in those events. But make no mistake, not only is Oda not writing for our culture, he's not even writing for (most of) our ages or level of fandom.

Oda is writing his story each week for the casual 15y/o reader. It is by coincidence and genius, that Oda's talent for characters/story happens to hit the sweet spot for a wide range of cultures and ages.

I almost guarantee you, his target audience has entirely tuned out anything going on outside Wano.

That all said….

It doesn't make him immune to criticism on the topic. But it may help to understand that there is a strategy behind how he filters info.

And yes, I imagine once this wraps, JimBAE will have quite an info dump for his crewmates.

[TLC]

@kevo_koma:

I never said he had to learn about it in 2 seconds.

I just think that he had to learn about his race to do so.

He could have taken weeks to learn about King's abilities and that would be ok.

I just don't see how learning about his race was relevant to the fight

Because his abilities were intrinsically related to his race making them super relevant lol

I don't really see what your problem is. You think Zoro should have figured out King's weaknesses without making the natural connection in his mind that they are due to his species? Like does it make a difference either way? It's not like it mattered to Zoro

[Razh]

@Riddler:

I mean, his abilities are due to his race. So it's impossible to separate the two, really.

And I can't believe people are now bitching about the fights in the arc. Nami and Usopp vs. Ulti and Paypay was really disappointing, of course, and I feel that both Jinbei's and Franky's fights should have been at least half a chapter longer each, though what we got was really good otherwise. And everything else was awesome. Both Zoro and Sanji's fights got way more screentime than expected, Robin's fight against Black Maria was perfection from beginning to end. And Killer vs. Hawkings and especially Kidd and Law vs. Big Mom were both surprisingly well done. Not to mention the fight against Kaido as a whole.

This arc has its problems but action-wise it did absolutely fine.

Yeah, also thought it weird that Zoro kept mentioning the guy's race. It's not as if Zoro has info about all the races but doesn't know which one King belongs to. Maybe the translation makes it awkward? Idk. In any case, it was likely written like that to introduce Lunarian info. Not overly subtle, but it doesn't really have to be.

As for action, I agree with you it was absolutely fine. Far from awesome and/or great, for the most part, anyway.

[Rean]

@Robby:

I don't know how anyone could be dissapointed in the Sasaki fight… every one of the dinosaur fighters with their "this is just what dinosaurs do!" chunk of insanity were brilliant. Flying triceratops had me cracking up.

It was fun enough, and miles ahead of the Senor Pink fight for me, but it didn't really have me clamoring for more. I personally think that Oda took the correct decision with the enemy players not really outlasting their welcome, I can easily see the F6's moves and visuals quickly becoming old hat if they were revived for a round 2.

@Robby:

because then you're lulled into the false sense that the heroes have won, and then you get the "oh shit!" moment when all their hard work turns out to be nothing.

If you do it during the first fight you're then obligated to do it every following fight and it stops being a surprise by the fourth or sixth time. Do it all at once and it s sudden huge reversal. (Same for the "big mom's troops arrive" theories.) Similar to the way everyone was waiting for Kaidou's hybrid form. There was no shock or awe when it came because we KNEW it was coming.

The trick to those twists is of course the generals would have needed to be defeated much earier in the raid to not be fatigued by it all. By the time they started actually dropping it would have been even more burn out and drag… the story would have needed to pace differently for it to work.

Like back on Fishman Island it was clear the crew had powercreeped way past normal fishman so the fishmen were given super steroids to power up.

I get the complaint, but why would you ever pull that move after over 2 volumes of fighting? In Marineford the reversal resonated because Luffy essentially accomplished what he wanted (Ace was freed), it's just that Oda managed to find a way in which Luffy both "wins" (meaning volume buyers don't feel cheated) while still suffering a terrible personal loss.

I don't think that idea can be pulled off twice, and it especially can't be pulled off when Kaido is as uncharismatic as OP villains can be, he's basically just an HP bar we're all waiting on to go to 0 (with some people weirdly hoping that it doesn't forever).

Also the FI fights had the underlying theme of legit sweat and tears (each of the SHs had 2 years of training under their belt) beating steroid users, aside from it being an opportunity for Oda to showoff his cool new move ideas.

@Robby:

Eh, if zoan awakenings can be forced through drug use, and they lose their minds when they do it in trade for the raw strength, it would have been fine.

But obviously since the big final payofff was Law, Kidd and Luffy awakening, yeah the minions had to hold back.

If Oda had ended Nami and Usopp's fights better I don't think the issue would have been speculated much at all.

Nami/Usopp's sequence was basically an Uncharted level in manga form, I personally enjoyed the spectacle, unpredictability and rollercoaster nature of it, even if it was terribly, terribly built by shonen fight standards.

I just feel that the solution really came down to making the fights better in the 1st place? Which is a ship that sailed at this point. But honestly, a lot of the ideas that are being thrown around to extend the shelf life of the arc villains just aren't appealing to me (I would have taken more Queen tho, that guy is great and probably my favorite Yonko henchman).

[Kfunk]

Page One and Ulti vs Usopp and Nami sucked because at no point it felt they had any agency in their "victory".
-Big Mom OHKOing Page One : Big Mom protecting Tama
-Big Mom dropping most of Ulti's HP : Big Mom reacting to Tama getting hurt
-Zeus merging with the climat tact : technically happened due to Nami's action, but completely accidental as she never planned for that to happen
-Zeus finishing wounded Ulti : Nami's mostly clueless at what's going on, Zeus doing the strategy (notice Ulti's weakened state and that one lightning bolt would finish her) and going autopilo when Nami's sole initiative ended up getting dodged…

I guess reading it weekly had the positive aspect that it was unpredictable, but once the surprise is past I find it more frustrating than satisfying at the reread, even more considering the last time they had an actual fight was over a decade ago.
I never liked the argument about them not being fighters so it's fine (and what memorable navigation moment or sniping moment do they even have in this arc?), as similar arguments were used to justify Robin never getting fights or being Rebecca's babysitter...
Yet what happen when Robin gets a good fight? (almost) everybody love it.
In the end One Piece is still a battle shonen, most readers will prefer protagonists getting a good battle over playing second fiddle.

[Rean]

@Kfunk:

Page One and Ulti vs Usopp and Nami sucked because at no point it felt they had any agency in their "victory".
-Big Mom OHKOing Page One : Big Mom protecting Tama
-Big Mom dropping most of Ulti's HP : Big Mom reacting to Tama getting hurt
-Zeus merging with the climat tact : technically happened due to Nami's action, but completely accidental as she never planned for that to happen
-Zeus finishing wounded Ulti : Nami's mostly clueless at what's going on, Zeus doing the strategy (notice Ulti's weakened state and that one lightning bolt would finish her) and going autopilo when Nami's sole initiative ended up getting dodged…

I guess reading it weekly had the positive aspect that it was unpredictable, but once the surprise is past I find it more frustrating than satisfying at the reread, even more considering the last time they had an actual fight was over a decade ago.
I never liked the argument about them not being fighters so it's fine (and what memorable navigation moment or sniping moment do they even have in this arc?), as similar arguments were used to justify Robin never getting fights or being Rebecca's babysitter...
Yet what happen when Robin gets a good fight? (almost) everybody love it.
In the end One Piece is still a battle shonen, most readers will prefer protagonists getting a good battle over playing second fiddle.

I don't know if you were referring to my post or commenting generally.

But I feel that Nami's fight was severely derailed by Oda's realization that with Big Mom on-site, Zeus obeying Nami over her is still unjustified, that relationship had to be built for Nami to "earn" her weapon.

The Ulti fight is bad if you view it as a shonen fight, but as set-up for Nami finally getting the upgrade locked-in no matter what Big Mom does, it's actually more enjoyable than expected. P1 essentially had his fight with Sanji in Act 2, so I don't mind .

What's weird about Wano arc is, it's clearly very flawed, but most of its flaws lie in places I genuinely don't care much about, so I guess maybe I'm uniquely disposed to like it more than most?

Like maybe I'd have more Perospero moments or remove a few of the unnecessary KOs (Luffy's off-screened KO right after he managed CoC coating really didn't do anything at all for the plot, nor did Oda ever expand on how it happened, Kanjuro's snow fight with the scabbards was also super weak), but that's really about it.

[wolfwood]

When you have a raw open wound and people keep insisting on jamming sticks into it.

[Daz]

Mights are a real mixed bag for me, with some highlights, but a lot of wasted potential.

• Franky vs Sasaki was fun enough, if bite-sized.
• Jinbe Vs WhosWho had some cool moves but was again rather short, and felt beholden to spending time on exposition that wasn't well interwoven with Jinbe himself.
• Robin vs Black Maria had some neat beats, but felt rather awkward to me, with Black marias excact capabilities a bit muddled (Illusion mist???) and the big finisher looking cool but not feeling that that different than what - - Robin otherwise tried doing the whole time: Grab and suplex with giant limbs.
• Sanji vs Queen, besides having the stink of Germa genes all over it, culminated in a really slapdash way (Suddenly, Geisha girl!!) which I went over at length at the time, though Queen had some visually cool shenanigans.
• Zoro vs King was okay, had lots of cool moves and Zoro felt properly pressured, but Kings abilities always seemed a bit hard to comprehend to me - with Mr 1 you instantly get that "oh, he's just hard as steel and can't be cut" but with King I'm not sure if he was hard like steel, or if he regenerated, and sometimes he explodes??, and being on fire or not is tied to his durability and I just couldn't fit it into something cohesive beyond "Lunarian genes I guess!". As a result, the finisher felt very "Oh! I guess he's done?"
• Killer vs Hawkins was okay
• Law and Kidd vs Big Mom was ok, but felt lopsided in terms of how many hits Big Mom could deal to Law/Kidd on panel vs how many new, increasingly bogus tricks they busted out on her.

We do not speak of Usopp and Nami.

So theres definetely good stuff there, but also almost everything feels like it could've used more time, which is wild to say about a 70+ chapter climax where 40% of the crew ultimately don't get fights.

[Alfiere]

Totally agree that Franky's and Robin's fight stand as the top highlights of the raid. Also Zoro's, surprisingly.

Jimbe's was a disaster though. It was 90% extremely awkward exposition about some of the worst twists/retcons of the whole manga and even the rest was an unimpressive fight in itself, especially for a new strawhat debut fight, not even a sweat and completetly forced conflict : "wow you're fast" "how dare you insult my people, die you scum".

Also completely wasted opportunity to match Jimbe with Jack. Fourth strongest strawhat, who happens to be a fishman, gets to fight and curbstomps rando boring man-cat, meanwhile the fourth strongest beast pirate, who happens to be a fishman, is paired with… rando man-dog who already did beat him once.
Boo.

[King Cannon]

I think the only problem with Franky and Sasaki is that the personal relationship between the fighters wasn't very developed, at least compared to the other fights. They just felt like two random people who happened to cross paths instead of actual enemies wanting to kill/maim each other.

[andre]

The only issue I have with Jinbe vs Whos Who is the somewhat predictable nature of Jinbe's fighting style. I thought Whos Who was great, though, and love his Rokushiki methods. I think the exposition was also pretty cool and loved Jinbe's response to Whos Who's reduction of Fishman history.

Franky vs. Sasaki is fun, but there's no emotional resonance whatsoever. It's the only fight completely bereft of it and that includes Nami and Usopp. This when his last fight was vs. Senor Pink, one which was surprisingly touching and pure Franky. Of the Tobi Roppo, Sasaki really stands out as being underdeveloped. Even Page One at least contributes to Ulti's greatness, but Sasaki just feels like he's there to get beat by Franky.

[Zanze]

My two cents on the fights.
I liked Nami VS Ulti a lot. Nami not doing much was a little sad, but the Zeus stuff with Hera eating him was so touching and dark and just weird, can't help but love it.
Usopp VS Page One, if it even counts, was just sad though.
Franky VS Sasaki is kinda just there and it's over too quickly but it has the triceracopter!
Jinbe VS Who's Who had some awkward exposition but the final blow was great.
Robin VS Black Maria was great, I also liked Brook's role a lot, he's become so reliable lately
Sanji VS Queen was… It had some great moments (especially Sanji destroying the raid suit) but the finale has to be one of the worst Oda has ever done. With Queen going after the geisha and getting KO'd... Come on...
Zoro VS King was great. King was amazing, he really felt like a powerhouse and "this is how pteranodons used to hunt" is 10/10. Too bad it was over a little too quickly
Luffy VS Kaido was very good once it kicked into gear (pun intended), the first chapter of Gear 5 is one of my favorites ever

Pretty good overall, although sometimes it felt like the chapter is out of pages and the fight abruptly ends, I'm not sure how to put it better.
Easily the best Straw Hat showing since forever overall, though. Everyone got some memorable moments (RIP Usopp)

[desa]

@kevo_koma:

So guys.

Is it safe to say that Zoro was a much better fighter than King?

I dont think so.
He had to learn to channel his conqueror into his sword to win (new technique he didnt have). And I would even argue that he also had to use a moment of vulnarability when King was attacking and his body was vulnerable to be able to land the finishing blow.

Having to use a new technique and momentary vulnerability doesnt scream overwhelming superiority to me.

[wolfwood]

The fights were fine for the strawhats who got fights. But they felt more like an afterthought, like the samurai battle on the roof felt grander and more special than anything the crew got. And even worse for the people who got to varying degrees shafted on having a real fight