Arlong Park Forums

i dunno, calling it "shitty" just feels like a gross overstatement.

it sure had nice moments here and there but overall it's quite bad imo.

Razh

If we're talking black hole, sure. If we're talking big fist can't hurt Blackbeard because his touch cancels out devil fruits, no.

The fight could be interesting, but not if it's treated like this one was.

wolfwood

Luffy is blown up loading up a big fist, Blacky cancels his rubberness and Luff is hit by the recoil of his own inflation. Then quake to the face, regular punch returning from Luffy, Blacky saying oh that hurt kiddo then quake chop in the neck. Should be a fun match with Luffy being cancelled out of his moves and and dealing with being a normie for the first time in ever.

andy

@Razh:

If we're talking black hole, sure. If we're talking big fist can't hurt Blackbeard because his touch cancels out devil fruits, no.

The fight could be interesting, but not if it's treated like this one was.

While i like certain aspect of the fight , the tanking and Kaido human fighting parts were on repeat sometimes .
Will likely be better in the anime but i don't watch it any more lol .

Mr. Prinz

I don't think Oda will have any problem with creating the upcoming threats.

People here have already listed all of the remaining big bads, and none of them is known to be that much of a physical threat: Blackbeard will have many tricks up his sleeve, Akainu is much more of an emotional threat to Luffy than an actual fighter.
Kaido was the brawly powerhouse of Luffy's endgame villains, but that's about it. You could even say that these kinds of villains have always been the easier fights for Luffy - as he just needed to keep getting up, which he has always been good at.

Kaido was the hardest battle, but he's far from the most important battle Luffy will have to face. Their threat will come from the narrative, not from how many punchies they can take.
Of course, that does not mean any reader has to necessarily feel that threat. I've never felt Luffy was in danger here, but that's because i cannot forget about what kind of story we're reading.

Kaiolino

Maybe it's my bias showing, but every bad moment in this arc can be relegated to one glaring issue: Oda only cares about his beloved samurai.

Raizo using water should not be getting more focus than the final clash (yes this is an exaggeration, but also the cat and dog shouldn't have clowned jack/peros, Genuinely Unpopular Character Kinemon shouldn't have gotten up 500 times, Denjiro shouldn't have stolen Hiyori's revenge, etc. + the fact that they all got up without a scratch was the first big tension breaker of the arc)

Seafarer33

@wolfwood:

Luffy is blown up loading up a big fist, Blacky cancels his rubberness and Luff is hit by the recoil of his own inflation.

Interesting you should say that. What happens if rubberization is cancelled while giant Lucky is stretched to 10 times his normal volume ? Does he simply blow up in gory pieces, end of the series ? :ninja:

FatDogForMidTerms

Kinemon is an unpopular character? I took a looooong break after Fishman Island and picked the series back up prob. when it was in a middle of Wano. I had no idea he was not liked by the community.

andy

Kinemon is an unpopular character? I took a looooong break after Fishman Island and picked the series back up prob. when it was in a middle of Wano. I had no idea he was not liked by the community.

I won't say he unpopular more like he just there .

Hitotsumami

This post is deleted!

wolfwood

@Seafarer33:

Interesting you should say that. What happens if rubberization is cancelled while giant Lucky is stretched to 10 times his normal volume ? Does he simply blow up in gory pieces, end of the series ? :ninja:

So i'm thinking either he pops like a kid friendly balloon and sorta deflates. Or it just does a full reversal and goes right back into him again. Like a rubber band snapping back

Kfunk

@Kaiolino:

Maybe it's my bias showing, but every bad moment in this arc can be relegated to one glaring issue: Oda only cares about his beloved samurai.

Raizo using water should not be getting more focus than the final clash (yes this is an exaggeration, but also the cat and dog shouldn't have clowned jack/peros, Genuinely Unpopular Character Kinemon shouldn't have gotten up 500 times, Denjiro shouldn't have stolen Hiyori's revenge, etc. + the fact that they all got up without a scratch was the first big tension breaker of the arc)

Yeah, I don't hate the scabbards but I really don't think ALL of them getting up within 10 chapters after their epic battle against Kaido was necessary. :getlost:

Zar

Kinemon is an unpopular character? I took a looooong break after Fishman Island and picked the series back up prob. when it was in a middle of Wano. I had no idea he was not liked by the community.

More or less what Andy said. I don't think anyone disliked him, at most there was some frustration he was yet another pervert. By the time we got into Dressrosa he was drowned out by the character cast. So whenever he popped up it was like a reminder. "Oh, that guys still here".

He had his comedic moments though. The Doffy disguise was amazing.

Momo, on the other hand, was not liked.

fana

Next cover story: the underground adventure of Kaido and Big Mom

ea77

@Hitotsumami:

I posted this in the old spoiler thread, but just thought I'd share it here too…

So I'm 50/50 on if this is truly Kaido's defeat. If it is, I'm not really satisfied. So I thought I'd write up a little script for how I'd write the ending of the fight, if this truly had to be the end. I'm not a professional writer by any means, so forgive me.

! Luffy’s Bajrang Gun presses closer to Kaidou’s Blazing Dragon Torch form. Even though Luffy is utilizing Ryuo, the heat from Kaidou begins piercing through his fist, visibly burning him. Luffy staggers, but continues to push his fist forward.
! As the struggle commences, the lanterns from Wano appear in the sky. Kaidou notices them. “You see those lanterns, Straw Hat?” he says. “Those are the hopes and dreams of this country! The people release them into the sky hoping they find their ancestors and make their dreams come true. But instead they’ve come to me, and my flames will outshine them all!”
! Some of the lanterns that fly too close to Kaidou burn away. Luffy is enraged. “NO!” he shouts. He pulls back his burning fist and forces the air inside up his arm, through his chest, and into his cheeks, causing them to inflate. “I won’t let you stop their dreams any longer!” His mouth forms the shape of a cartoony fireplace bellow, and he blows the lanterns away from Kaidou. They drift and disappear into the clouds above.
! With the lanterns floating out of sight, Luffy’s attention is turned toward his arm. From fingers to elbow, it is blackened and charred. Luffy realizes a strong punch won’t be enough to overcome Kaidou’s fire. Luffy stretches his other arm back into the sky and beyond the clouds.
! “Do you wish to try again, Straw Hat?” shouts Kaidou. “Did you truly ever believe the King of Beasts could be overcome by a fist? A second one will make no difference! Come!”
! Luffy follows his stretched arm up into the clouds, vanishing from sight.
! Kaidou appears confused for a moment. “Running away? No, that’s not in your nature, is it, Straw Hat? Show me what you’re hiding!”
! The clouds part and Luffy appears, but instead of a fist, Luffy has formed himself into a giant anvil, coated in Conqueror’s Haki, giving his form the black sheen of iron. Luffy’s head pops out the tip of the anvil, along with his withered burned arm next to him. “If I can’t punch you out of the sky… then I’ll take you down with me!”
! Luffy comes crashing down towards Kaidou. “Is this a joke to you!?” yells Kaidou, but he senses great strength coming his way. “Then I’ll take this head on as well and prove to you that I am still the strongest in this world!”
! Luffy’s anvil crashes into Kaidou’s Blazing Dragon Torch form.
! “Gomu Gomu no KO Anvil!”
! “Flame Bagua!”
! For a moment, Luffy’s attack stops in its tracks. Luffy’s anvil begins to glow blazing red from the heat.
! Kaidou grins. “You see!? Nothing has changed! My flames will burn more than your arm away this time, Straw Hat! You are finished!”
! Kaidou pushes back against the anvil, but instead the force comes down upon him harder than before. He is confused at first, but then he realizes it – it is not his flames that are setting Luffy’s anvil alight.
! Behind Luffy floats hundreds of lanterns. One at a time, they go out, and in turn, Luffy’s anvil grows brighter and stronger. “Nothing has changed!?” says Luffy. “You’re wrong! I have the dreams of Wano on my side now! It’s over, Kaidou!”
! The fire from the lanterns ignites Luffy’s anvil and overpowers Kaidou’s flames. “Gomu Gomu no KO Anvil Red Roc!!” In one burst, Kaidou’s flames dissipate and the anvil comes crashing directly on Kaidou’s head. At the same moment, Momonosuke, urged on by Yamato, forms his own flame clouds and pulls Onigashima out of the way.
! Appropriate for an anvil and Luffy’s Gear 5th form, Kaidou’s eyes pop out and his teeth go crooked on the impact, and the two of them crash down into Wano, just outside of the Fire Festival. The residents notice immediately, and many come running to see what has happened.
! There, the residents find a giant hole in the ground in the shape of an anvil and a snaking dragon. To their surprise, someone climbs out. Luffy comes hobbling forward, still visibly dazed. His Gear 5th form is starting to fade.
! The residents are in disbelief. “Who are you? That shape… it couldn’t be Kaidou, could it!?”
! Luffy weakly raises his hand. “Go,” he mutters. “He’s not—“ Luffy is interrupted as a harrowing shadow appears behind him. The residents scream in fear and run away.
! Luffy turns to see Kaidou in his human form, standing with his kanabo in hand. His head has been half crushed and flattened, and his horns on one side broken apart. He coughs and wipes blood off his mouth. “I’ll admit it, Straw Hat. That was something else. No one’s tried such a ridiculous attack like that against me in all my years. But… I can still hear it! The drumming of my heart! You’ve not stopped it yet, Straw Hat!”
! Kaidou comes charging at Luffy, kanabo raised. He brings it down hard, and Luffy barely manages to half-absorb the blow, his body taking the shape of the kanabo’s spikes. Even still, damage manages to pierce through his rubbery form, and when Kaidou brings his kanabo back Luffy staggers and spits blood. Yet he does not fall. Thinking of Wano, the lanterns, the hopes of dreams of the people, he stands.
! Kaidou prepares for another attack, and as he does, thoughts of his life race through his mind – from when he was a child solider, when his country tried to sell him off, becoming wanted and a pirate soon afterwards. He thinks of his old crew Rocks, and how when it fell his aspirations turned to Wano.
! He thinks of King, and of Joy Boy. “I know who he is!” says Kaidou to King.
! “Who is it?” asks King.
! “Joy Boy is the man who’ll be able to beat me one day!”
! “If that’s true,” responds King with a smirk, “I don’t think he’ll ever appear.”
! With those memories of his life flashing before his eyes, Kaidou charges at Luffy once more, kanabo prepared to finish him once and for all.
! However, Kaidou can’t manage to swing his weapon. His arm refuses listen. And then, his legs too betray him, growing stiff and weak. He stumbles past Luffy, takes seven steps, and freezes. The terrible realization has come over him all at once.
! It is not his own heart that Kaidou’s hears drumming. His heart stopped back in the sky, when Luffy’s final attack crashed into him. This is Luffy’s drumming he hears. The drumming of Joy Boy. Through sheer will, Kaidou managed to fight a little longer, but even the King of Beasts has a limit.
! “You were wrong, King.” Kaidou collapses. As his consciousness begins to fade, he thinks, “Now this would be a legendary way to die… at the hands of Joy Boy! But that Straw Hat… it’s not in him to finish me off. Give me a few days, and I’ll wake up. My dream of a death to match those before me… Oden, how you haunt me even now!”
! Luffy turns to look at Kaidou. He knows he’s finally won. The residents of Wano who were brave enough to stay and watch gasp in amazement.
! A few lanterns have drifted down from the sky, and the light they give off sends nine shadows off of Luffy, all crisscrossing across a defeated Kaidou. One by one, they go off, and Luffy falls back. The Wano people come rushing to his aid, cheering, still unbelieving that Kaidou has finally been vanquished.
! Luffy smiles as his Gear 5th form fades away, and the drumming of his heart along with it. The sun brings the dawn.

I know there's issues and some of the 'powers' I applied might be a bit of a stretch, but I'd like it better than what we have been given. Oh, and some art to go along with my story:

https://i.imgur.com/yb6nkYq.jpg

Luffy does not literally have cartoon powers. People took one phrase from fans and ran with it.

Hitotsumami

Luffy does not literally have cartoon powers. People took one phrase from fans and ran with it.

Apologies, I thought I might have taken things too far, should have given it a bit more thought before posting. I removed it and will reconsider my ideas.

King Cannon

@Zar:

More or less what Andy said. I don't think anyone disliked him, at most there was some frustration he was yet another pervert. By the time we got into Dressrosa he was drowned out by the character cast. So whenever he popped up it was like a reminder. "Oh, that guys still here".

He had his comedic moments though. The Doffy disguise was amazing.

Momo, on the other hand, was not liked.

Most of the samurai are kinda just there, especially Ashura and Kawamatsu. It feels like Denjiro could have just played their roles some way or the other, considering he was already posing as a thief.

I think Inuarashi and Nekomamushi only had fights because Oda couldn't properly demonstrate Sulong in the rooftop, and he made a big deal about it.

Johnny B. Decent

Most of the samurai are kinda just there, especially Ashura and Kawamatsu. It feels like Denjiro could have just played their roles some way or the other, considering he was already posing as a thief.

I think Inuarashi and Nekomamushi only had fights because Oda couldn't properly demonstrate Sulong in the rooftop, and he made a big deal about it.

Well, that and they had to avenge their tribe and themselves against what Jack did to them.

Kaiolino

Kinemon is an unpopular character? I took a looooong break after Fishman Island and picked the series back up prob. when it was in a middle of Wano. I had no idea he was not liked by the community.

He barely cracks the top 100 popular characters despite being one of the most prolific non-strawhats in the series.

King Cannon

@Kaiolino:

He barely cracks the top 100 popular characters despite being one of the most prolific non-strawhats in the series.

I mean, that's still not what I would consider "unpopular". Big Mom is not too far ahead and she's been overly present for +200 chapters now.

Unpopular would be someone like Fukurokuju, who can't even crack the Top 800 despite being a recent character with a decent-ish role.

Riddler

Both Kinemon and Momo were kinda meh characters before Wano, but have become quite awesome during this arc imo, especially the former. From this moment

!

which imo was the "moment of absolute despair" of the arc that everybody was clamoring for, to this

!

which was one of the funniest moments of the whole series, to Kinemon declaring in front of Kaido that Luffy will rule the seas one day, like a true badass, this has been a really good arc for him.

I know people standing up again and again after seemingly having been mortally wounded can heavily decrease tension but nevertheless, him being shish-ke-babbed by Kaido was also one of the most tense moments, so he actually greatly contributed to the drama. I don't think all of the samurai needed to stand up after their fight against Kaido, especially so quickly, but I'm fine with a few of them, like Kinemon and Denjiro, still playing a role during the raid.

Anyway, alright chapter. If this is Kaido's defeat, I'll have to agree that it was a tad lackluster. Not bad or lame, but just not very memorable. Especially because Big Moms defeat was actually handled way better. I also wanted more out of Kaidos flashback. It revealed some interesting stuff but I was missing any emotional insight. I wanted to get a clearer look at what makes him tick, why he wants to die, why he treats Yamato so badly etc. Kaido is a fascinating character precisely because he is full of contradictions. I still want to know more about him, dammit.

I think the last two chapters could have been more impactful if Oda wasn't skipping around so much and had instead mostly focused on one thing in each. Theoretically, last chapter was about Orochi going down and this one was about Kaido going down, but it didn't quite feel like that, even though the puzzle pieces were all there. Here's how I would restructure chapters 1048 and 1049:

Sooo, chapter 1047 ended with a burning Orochi attacking Hiyori and Luffy making a giant fist to smash Kaido and telling Momo he had to move the island (wait, is this LOST??:ninja:)

Instead of picking up right away with Kaido, Momo and Luffy in chapter 1048, I think it should have started out focusing heavily on Orochi and Hiyori. I know people were getting tired of the Orochi storyline by this point, but it's Oda's job to make you care, and I absolutely think it's achievable. Maybe some of the flashbacks in that chapter weren't needed, but I think most of them were necessary to remind readers of all the horrors Orochi in particular has caused and what a bastard he has been to make his death more satisfying and cathartic. So start the chapter out with Orochis attack on Hiyori being intercut with these small flashbacks we got and also people in the castle being engulfed by the fire. Instead of showcasing Jinbei and Raizo extinguishing the fire in earlier chapters, it should have all been saved for this one, too.

Orochi's threat to me was represented by the dangerous fire he had caused by himself and through Kanjuro. So people being saved from the fire should have been intercut with Orochi being finally beheaded by Denjiro, to create a clearer symbolic connection between the two events. After that problem had been dealt with, include that little snippet we got this chapter between Denjiro and Hiyori to fully finish the storyline in the same chapter. Only then cut back to Luffy and Kaido, and show Kaido creating his fire dragon form to counter Luffys attack. But do not show Luffy using his new Haki technique he learned from Hyogoro to counter Kaido yet - save it for 1049 instead, to keep the tension alive between the two chapters. And to increase the tension, end the chapter not only with Kaido revealing this new form, but also by having the water extinguish the cloud flames and letting Onigashima fall as a cliffhanger. I think a problem with the tension in the last few chapters was that first, the fire problem was solved a couple of chapters too early, and secondly, the "falling island" problem was introduced and handled almost as a footnote in 1049. By instead keeping the solution for the fire hidden until 1048 and then immediately after that is solved introducing a new problem, with Onigashima and everybody on the island falling to their doom, the tension would have been instead kept throughout.

Then, start chapter 1049 with the Kaido flashback. I'm not changing anything about the flashback because who knows what Oda might still have planned for that fingers crossed. That also would create a nice parallel between the chapters. 1048 starts off with flashbacks centered around Orochi and mainly features his downfall; 1049 starts off with flashbacks centered around Kaido and mainly features his downfall. When the flashback ends, we are still at the moment where Kaido attacks Luffy with his fire dragon form while Onigashima is falling down beneath him. Momo flies downward to catch the falling island, while we get a few extra panels featuring people on the island like Nami, Yamato, Kidd or Jinbei realising they are falling to their death to better sell how dangerous the situation is.

Only now we have the double page spread of Luffy using the Ryou haki technique Hyogoro taught him to counter Kaido's attack, which was actually in chapter 1048. Then we get another doublespread of Momo desperately trying to save the people on the island, then being encouraged by seeing the lanterns and finally creating his own clouds, thus catching Onigashima in time and also moving it out of the way. And then go back to the double page(s) of Luffy punching Kaido down into the earth, ending the chapter. This way, everybody being saved and Kaido being defeated are still tied together and happen in quick succession, but each moment get its own doublespread to give Momo's big moment more weight.

My version actually doesn't change much about the content of the chapters, but it does feel a little more cohesive, tension-filled and satisfying to me.

All that said, the whole fight against Kaido, from the beginning of the raid to now, has been one of the most amazing fights of the series for me, anticlimactic finisher or not. And Kaido himself has absolutely lived up to his hype imo, Awakening or no Awakening. He fought basically during the whole raid, without any breaks, against dozens of the strongest fighters on the island and managed to defeat Luffy (who both got to actually take a break and rest for quite some time AND unlocked a whole new power-up during the fight) several times, actually killing him in the process, at least for a couple of minutes. And even after Luffy went Gear 5, Kaido STILL managed to keep up more than well. Major impressive showing. He has definitely earned his place at the pantheon of great One Piece villains.

Even though these last two chapters haven't fully impressed me, in general, I loved the raid. I really did. It had a few lows, true, but not as many as people claim. It also had a shit ton of absolutely amazing, memorable, badass moments. Some of the complaints are valid, some are only fueled because personal expectations or theories weren't met (plus simple arc fatigue, which is certainly understandable at this point). Personally, I can't wait to reread the whole thing, from Volume 97 onwards. It's been so much fun.

astagadragon

Glad the fight is FINALLY over. Kinda weird that in the end I only want for it to end no matter what the process is… and well, it was very meh. For a god fruit with an imagination-based power the finisher is very lacking in creativity imo. Literally the same finisher as Doffy, but only BIGGER. Also the coreography is just... not there.

As for the flashback, it was VERY lacking imo. Big Mom had that 2 awesome yet disturbing flashback, and Kaido is... again, just there. Very disjointed all over, interceded by yet FILLER pages and people running around. I think Oda is forced to insert Kaido's flashback but he had so little pages to plan... which is easily avoided IF ONLY he cut unnecessary filler pages.

At least it's over, so thank every deity above for it.

andy

@astagadragon:

Glad the fight is FINALLY over. Kinda weird that in the end I only want for it to end no matter what the process is… and well, it was very meh. For a god fruit with an imagination-based power the finisher is very lacking in creativity imo. Literally the same finisher as Doffy, but only BIGGER. Also the coreography is just... not there.

As for the flashback, it was VERY lacking imo. Big Mom had that 2 awesome yet disturbing flashback, and Kaido is... again, just there. Very disjointed all over, interceded by yet FILLER pages and people running around. I think Oda is forced to insert Kaido's flashback but he had so little pages to plan... which is easily avoided IF ONLY he cut unnecessary filler pages.

At least it's over, so thank every deity above for it.

Luffy don't have imagination based powers his awakening is still tie to only rubber but yeah ending move was lacking creativity.

Johnny B. Decent

He literally got these powers, in the story, not even for a full hour. XD

Like, I'm sure we'll see some crazy stuff in the future, but he doesn't even know his DF's true nature yet, right?

Robby

Judging Kin and Momo based on the popoularity poll is a bit ofgf given that poll was taken RIGHT when Momo wa at his lowest and most worthless, right before his inevitable redemption arc. And right beore kin got to do all the stuff he's been doing. Same poll now less than a year later they'd probably do better.

All Fiction

@astagadragon:

a god fruit with an imagination-based power

Good lord, there are STILL people who think this?
Reread what the Gorosei said. Carefully.

Xelloss

@Ghost:

Congrats! All your hard work finally paid off and the funny got found! Now to go easter egg hunting and figure out which of the other expressions of dry wit had unexpected comedy to them:ninja:

You should contribute to the discussion rather than… not even sure what point you're trying to make.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@wolfwood:

Luffy is blown up loading up a big fist, Blacky cancels his rubberness and Luff is hit by the recoil of his own inflation. Then quake to the face, regular punch returning from Luffy, Blacky saying oh that hurt kiddo then quake chop in the neck. Should be a fun match with Luffy being cancelled out of his moves and and dealing with being a normie for the first time in ever.

Yeah. I mean, there are so many ways the next big fights can still be made interesting, regardless of the fact that Luffy is now among the world's strongest. The real question is whether Oda still has enough creativity and storytelling skills, or he's aged too much.

Ghost of Laugh Tale

@Xelloss:

You should contribute to the discussion rather than… not even sure what point you're trying to make.

My point being that even with jokes as obvious as yours when viewed from certain starting assumptions their intent will be obscured to the point of unrecognisability. So while I have little to say about the chapter since it in my view mostly completes a whole with last week's and all I have to say about it has been said countless times here and in the spoiler section I instead decided to go for levity.

EDIT: but on a reread I can see that the comment could be seen as accusing you of being a schroedinger's asshole, claiming things you won't back up to have been jokes. If you somehow went for that read then I'm deeply sorry.

ea77

@Johnny:

He literally got these powers, in the story, not even for a full hour. XD

Like, I'm sure we'll see some crazy stuff in the future, but he doesn't even know his DF's true nature yet, right?

His Devil Fruit's true nature is that hes a crackhead rubber man with a crackhead rubber man spirit as opposed to just being a crackhead with a ruberman's body.

Ghost of Laugh Tale

Destined to crack heads like none before

ea77

As for Kaido's awakening, what do you guys think of this? https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/uqxhmn/explaining_the_probably_secret_behind_zoan/

TL:DR, Kaido;s awakening *is his Laughing Drunk/Homicidal Drunk mode

Paramecia awakening - Affect things other than the body.

Zoan awakening – Mind and Body catch up with fruit.

The Sake is required to dull the human mind and let more of the fruit take control. Same with Chopper's Monster point and Luffy being knocked the hell out while fighting for freedom AND the Impel Down guards looking like they are asleep with the nose dripping thing. Awakening a Zoan user requires turning them off and on again, basically, and then managing to keep in that state.

Luffy's Gear Second control lets him control his blood, so he could find the rhythm and effectively reverse engineer awakening.

Deicide

Zoan awakening – Mind and Body catch up with fruit.

Kaido does not know Luffy is a zoan. That explanation was meant for all the devil fruits. But I'd argue that it's a little harder to "catch up with the fruit" for zoans, especially mythic ones, because they have a mind of their own.

My take is that Kaido hasn't awakened because he's not in tune with his fruit. The Azure Dragon is supposed to be a guardian spirit, and Kaido is anything but that.

ea77

@Deicide:

Kaido does not know Luffy is a zoan. That explanation was meant for all the devil fruits. But I'd argue that it's a little harder to "catch up with the fruit" for zoans, especially mythic ones, because they have a mind of their own.

My take is that Kaido hasn't awakened because he's not in tune with his fruit. The Azure Dragon is supposed to be a guardian spirit, and Kaido is anything but that.

That's not true, both Kaido and Doflamingo's explanations are framed as "universal" when they both say it. I would argue that it is 100% impossoible for a (Typical) Zoan to affect things other than their body, especially when the first awakened Zoans we see did not do that. In the same way, in no way can Law or Kidd's awakening be classified as "Body and Mind catching up with their power."

Also, Kaido is not an idiot. He looked at Luffy and said, "Hmm, you're probaly a paramecia, but your awakening is very zoan like." He even asks Luffy twice: "Who are you?" He may not know Luffy is a Human Nika eater, but he's well aware that Luffy is exhibiting Zoan-typical symptoms.

Read the thread, open your mind a little and play around with the concept.

Ghost of Laugh Tale

I'd like to see these two theories synthesised: Kaido had to use booze to access awakening since otherwise he'd be too out of touch with his fruit. A way to tie character traits and creative workarounds of fruit powers into one while informing us of who they are and what their strengths are personality-wise. But it's not like it's necessary for anything, so I'm not too hyped for it. Really neat ideas both, though.

King Cannon

As for Kaido's awakening, what do you guys think of this? https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/uqxhmn/explaining_the_probably_secret_behind_zoan/

TL:DR, Kaido;s awakening *is his Laughing Drunk/Homicidal Drunk mode

Paramecia awakening - Affect things other than the body.

Zoan awakening – Mind and Body catch up with fruit.

The Sake is required to dull the human mind and let more of the fruit take control. Same with Chopper's Monster point and Luffy being knocked the hell out while fighting for freedom AND the Impel Down guards looking like they are asleep with the nose dripping thing. Awakening a Zoan user requires turning them off and on again, basically, and then managing to keep in that state.

Luffy's Gear Second control lets him control his blood, so he could find the rhythm and effectively reverse engineer awakening.

Unless stated somewhere in the story, Kaidou's awakening still doesn't exist. Oda would've been explicit about it.

Lucci, Black Maria, Chopper etc. have showed that with certain techniques or substances, it's possible to further modify Zoan transformations without the need of achieving Awakening, so more specifics are needed.

Ookami Sencho

Outstanding chapter and a proper conclusion for a tough opponent who lived only for war and was defeated by the desire of freedom. When Luffy hit the punch, dissipating the flaming dragon and delivering the shock directly to the dragon's jaw, it felt liberating. The almighty super soldier who sees humanity as a pure assemble of flesh and brutality finally remembered that the so called "Joy Boy" was a pursuer of freedom, the true equalizer. Intriguing contrast and parallelism between the radical philosophy of Kaido (anarchy and war as the true way to be human) and the candid desire of Luffy to create a world without hunger, where all his friends can eat to total satisfaction (making another recall to the common theme of Wano and Onigashima: a lot of food only for a little piece of evil people and not accessible to everyone else, despite the hard work).
The lanterns delivering the so desired messages to the ancients, connected with the ability of Momonosuke to finally be able to create a proper flame cloud in the most needed moment. The gentle hug of Denjiro that is able to break the forced facade of Hiyori, the water washing away both the samurai and the pirates, saving all of them from certain death. Onigashima landing safely and both the heroes of this long story (Momonosuke and Luffy) collapsing after their final struggle. Poetry in motion, anticipated by the former chapter title and the final editor's note: Twenty Years. It's been a long time for the people of Wano but they can finally leave in peace because the "scary dragon" is down and "Joy Boy" is arrived. It wasn't a matter of actually opening the borders, rather than perpetrating the idea at any cost. Inherited will, the theme of the whole One Piece. It wasn't an open or a closed border that made the appearance of the liberator possible, it was the heart of people who never surrendered, not even after losing their leader, not even having to spend decades waiting for that very night.
Fusha Village's Mayor once said: "It was his dream or his destiny?". Luffy's effort came to fruition with a huge punch that made the impossible: defeat the inevitable beast. not even Oden was able to do it, because he wasn't Joy Boy. Not even Roger reached Laugh Tale at the right moment, because he wasn't Joy Boy. The world of brutality wasn't the right one to live for, because Kaido wasn't Joy Boy either. Then the final realization, like an epiphany for the little kid that only lived for war: if I can't be Joy Boy I'll be the incarnation of what he has to take down in order to take his place into the world. Maybe even Kaido was waiting for him, without even knowing. Basically searching for the warrior of liberation like it was a life purpose.

ea77

Unless stated somewhere in the story, Kaidou's awakening still doesn't exist. Oda would've been explicit about it.

Lucci, Black Maria, Chopper etc. have showed that with certain techniques or substances, it's possible to further modify Zoan transformations without the need of achieving Awakening, so more specifics are needed.

Merlin's response is all I have to say here. If you read the post, there's a valid reason for Oda to not have been explicit about it. As for Lucci, we already establoshed Cp9 can control every cell of their body with Semei Kikan, not applicable.

"It certainly seems paradoxical. All of Luffy's other opponents have awakening, and Kaidou appears to not have it. Unless, you flip it on its head and comsider it from a different angle."

Right now, your angle is: "Oda is a bad writer", "Oda forgot", or "Kaido will come back for R3 where he'll deliver 5 more baguas and Luffy will deliver 5 more punches." All are certainly plausible, but boring. I prefer to use the little gray cells, as Poirot would say.

Deicide

That's not true, both Kaido and Doflamingo's explanations are framed as "universal" when they both say it.

They are not the same, thought. Doflamingo was saying what awakening (at least for his fruit) is and can do. Kaido was saying how one achieves awakening, not what additional powers it gives.

Kaido is the first to explain how you awake powers.
Ironically, he hasn't shown any awakening. So maybe he himself didn't catch up to his powers.

Razh

@wolfwood:

Luffy is blown up loading up a big fist, Blacky cancels his rubberness and Luff is hit by the recoil of his own inflation. Then quake to the face, regular punch returning from Luffy, Blacky saying oh that hurt kiddo then quake chop in the neck. Should be a fun match with Luffy being cancelled out of his moves and and dealing with being a normie for the first time in ever.

Oh I don't doubt it will be an interesting struggle once BB grabs a hold of Luffy. Just don't think BB will be immune to big hits, considering Luffy coats them in forcefields.

Unless his awakening allows him to create a "no fly zone" for devil fruit powers, cancelling every other ability (possibly quake as well). Now that would be a serious issue for Luffy.

rayleigh92

@Deicide:

They are not the same, thought. Doflamingo was saying what awakening (at least for his fruit) is and can do. Kaido was saying how one achieves awakening, not what additional powers it gives.

https://i.imgur.com/F9W9tWO.png

Kaido is the first to explain how you awake powers.
Ironically, he hasn't shown any awakening. So maybe he himself didn't catch up to his powers.

Kaidou explains Paramecia and Zoan's awakening has rules at 1045's early pages: https://cdn.readonepiece.com/file/mangap/2/11045000/3.jpeg

Deicide

@rayleigh92:

Kaidou explains Paramecia and Zoan's awakening has rules at 1045's early pages: https://cdn.readonepiece.com/file/mangap/2/11045000/3.jpeg
[qimg]https://cdn.readonepiece.com/file/mangap/2/11045000/3.jpeg[/qimg]
[qimg]https://cdn.readonepiece.com/file/mangap/2/11045000/3.jpeg[/qimg]
[qimg]https://cdn.readonepiece.com/file/mangap/2/11045000/3.jpeg[/qimg]

Yeah, but he's intrigued, it's not like he went "Oh, you had a zoan all along". He went "your powers check for a paramecia, but this transformation is like a zoan's". He didn't reach a conclusion.

We've seen other borderline devil fruits before, like Katakuri's and Tamago's.

Also, even if Kaido was talking about zoan awakening specificly, it doesn't change my point, which is that he may not have caught up to his power because he isn't in tune with a guardian spirit like the Azure Dragon. He's anything but a guardian.

King Cannon

Merlin's response is all I have to say here. If you read the post, there's a valid reason for Oda to not have been explicit about it. As for Lucci, we already establoshed Cp9 can control every cell of their body with Semei Kikan, not applicable.

"It certainly seems paradoxical. All of Luffy's other opponents have awakening, and Kaidou appears to not have it. Unless, you flip it on its head and comsider it from a different angle."
https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Nanatsu-No-Taizai/0107-009.png
https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Nanatsu-No-Taizai/0107-009.png

Right now, your angle is: "Oda is a bad writer", "Oda forgot", or "Kaido will come back for R3 where he'll deliver 5 more baguas and Luffy will deliver 5 more punches." All are certainly plausible, but boring. I prefer to use the little gray cells, as Poirot would say.

You're not smart because you post nonsense from some other manga.

If the idea is to be open-minded, then Kaidou's Laughing Drunk mode has many possible explanations. After all, Oda already set the precedent for different Zoan forms from different origins, all with equal probabilities of being true. It's up to the writer to clarify if a thing is a thing and not some other thing when there's doubt, not the reader.

ea77

You're not smart because you post nonsense from some other manga.

If the idea is to be open-minded, then Kaidou's Laughing Drunk mode has many possible explanations. After all, oda already set the precedent for different Zoan forms from different origins. It's up to the writer to clarify those things, not the reader.

I never said I was smart. It's just a theory. And: "Reframe your thinking" is hardly nonsense. How many years did Oda take to say "Tekkai = Haki" after fans so happily argued that "If it was haki, Oda would have said so."

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

You're not smart because you post nonsense from some other manga.

If the idea is to be open-minded, then Kaidou's Laughing Drunk mode has many possible explanations. After all, oda already set the precedent for different Zoan forms from different origins. It's up to the writer to clarify those things, not the reader.

I never said I was smart. It's just a theory. And: "Reframe your thinking" is hardly nonsense. How many years did Oda take to say "Tekkai = Haki" after fans so happily argued that "If it was haki, Oda would have said so."

That being said, "you're not smart" is just a backhanded way of sneaking in an insult and being able to say "whoa whoa, i didn't mean it like that" if called out on it. Which is fair enough, I accept your irritation. We can now go back calling Oda a hack writer or whatever you prefer to do.

King Cannon