Chapter 862: The Intelligent Ones
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Big Mom will not be beaten by half of SHs and a bunch of scraps Luffy put together on the island while the other Yonkou requires the full crew, 1 or 2 worst generation, a mink nation, a commander from a deceased Yonkou. That doesn't make any sense.
Even Mingo required much more than that.
O.K.
1. Provide * evidence * of why it won't happen before saying it won't as if it was the truth. When you do, I might start caring about what you have to say.
2. "It doesn't make any sense", Jesus Christ you people just blunder your way through discussions by repeating lines like that. My versus board was well thought-out and it displays that for each big name from Big Mom's crew there's a Firetank Alliance counterpart.
3. I don't know why you bring up Doflamingo when it has nothing to do with anything.
4. Well of course they'll need a very big alliance to take over Wano, this situation is VERY different, can't you see that?I'll also quote myself once more:
O.K. now:
Luffy + Capone vs Big Mom
Sanji vs Katakuri
Jinbe vs Smoothie
Pedro vs Baron Tamago
Caesar vs Perospero
Brook vs Amande
Carrot vs Galette (although Carrot might probably be too strong for her)
Chopper vs Mont d'Or
Capone pirates we don't know about vs Big Mom pirates we don't know aboutCharacters I don't know who to match against: Judge, ichiji, Niji, Yonji, Smoothie, Vito, Pekoms, Gotti, Chiffon, Nami.
Notes:
- Nami can use Zeus' and Prometheus' powers to get rid of most weaklings fast.
- Brook can get rid of most homies (save for Big Mom's) instantly.
- Jinbe should be able to resist Smoothie's abilities by having a perfect control over his body water.
- Sanji specializes on CoO, just like Katakuri.
Read that and tell me that Big Mom's "vastly outnumbers" the Firetank Alliance.
that's not like the fight went,like,at all
??? That's exactly how the fight went! LOL. Cracker just kept throwing biscuits at Luffy and hiding behind them, hoping Luffy would fight them endlessly and die once he ran out of stamina. Which is why Luffy decided to start eating the biscuits untill Cracker ran out of stamina.
Also Cracker's ability counters Luffy perfectly, since Luffy's a brawler. Katakuri, however, seems to fall in Sanji's cathegory. (Both are CoO specialists)
Victim of the corrupted Arlong Park staff.
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They're planning to kill Big Mom. If you don't think they'll achieve it O.K. but my opinion is they will and if I'm (or you're) wrong only time will say.
I think that there's going to be some initial Chaos, random battles here and there until Big Mom goes full on insanity mode and takes everyone down. She, Katakuri and Smoothie quickly stop the Strawhats and everyone else. I think there comes a point where they're tied up, and Big Mom is still in a rage so the family gives her presents to make her calm down, someone suggest the Tamatebako box and when she opens it, well….. you know. I think that would provide a nice opportunity to escape. I don't see Big Mom being set up to get beaten this arc, Kaido yeah, he's clearly being set up for Luffy to take him down in Wano. I don't see that happening with Big Mom though.
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Luffy + Capone vs Big Mom
Sanji vs Katakuri
Jinbe vs Smoothie
Pedro vs Baron Tamago
Caesar vs Perospero
Brook vs Amande
Carrot vs Galette (although Carrot might probably be too strong for her)
Chopper vs Mont d'Or
Capone pirates we don't know about vs Big Mom pirates we don't know aboutCharacters I don't know who to match against: Judge, ichiji, Niji, Yonji, Smoothie, Vito, Pekoms, Gotti, Chiffon, Nami.
My inner fangirl needs Nami vs Pudding.. ala Sanji vs Absalom.
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I think we won't see Big Mom killed for a couple reasons.
Thematically, the story has set up Kaido to be the first Emperor brought down. Big Mom may suffer a defeat, but not a fatal or crippling one. On top of that, they're relying on weapons made by Cesar, who has a less than stellar track record when it comes to weapons.
Waldorf: You know Statler, after watching the last one thousand episodes of One Piece, I think I've come to a conclusion.
Statler: No you haven't.
Both: DOHOHOHOHOHO!
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To me, I was actually pretty happy Sanji wasn't a perv for once with his comment at the alter. It made that comment from Reiju about him valid, but also screwed up Big Mom's entire plan, too and well….I'm a sucker for such cute romantic things. :P
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I think we won't see Big Mom killed for a couple reasons.
Thematically, the story has set up Kaido to be the first Emperor brought down. Big Mom may suffer a defeat, but not a fatal or crippling one. On top of that, they're relying on weapons made by Cesar, who has a less than stellar track record when it comes to weapons.
Let's see Mom has got her PG's rubbed…AGAIN, Attack on Titan plan [Gigantification] has failed with the capture of Ceaser, So far her plot to assassinate the Smokes have been foiled, Very important to becoming PK, Pudding has been converted with the baptism of bad writing, Mom needs her to read PG's, Jinbei has double crossed her, Capone has betrayed her, Another sign; Katakuri was dodged CASUALLY by Sanji and has failed to see through a Dr. Seuss party crash plan, Couldn't even do anything about it! Everything that Mom prided herself on has crumbled…And by ROOKIES. It's do or die for Mom, She has to fight to kill and force the SH's into battle. I'm assuming Katakuri may disrupt the plan for the picture being broken.
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Well well well. It can't be Nami's doing because the mirages are physically interacting. And it shouldn't be Brulee's ability because they aren't actually mirrored. I wonder if Luffy has some weird new cloning ability after having seen Doflamingo and Cracker pull off stunts like that.
Plus it shows about 17 Luffy's or so, which means unless they brought extra people/animals that weren't running with them there's no way they had enough people to make into Luffy clones.
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Nami has an updated climatact..one that we haven't seen what it can do yet, so who knows? Or it could be something funky with the mirror refractions.
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1. Provide * evidence * of why it won't happen before saying it won't as if it was the truth. When you do, I might start caring about what you have to say.
The evidence is all lined up in Luffy's fight with Cracker. In fact, I bet the reason why Oda showed that fight is because since he knew that Big Mom won't be defeated this arc, he still wanted to give Luffy a win so that he could build up his credibility in taking down Kaido in Wano Country by gradually showing growth in strength. There's also fight with Doflamingo, where he couldn't even fully beat Doflamingo on his own and needed other people to save his life. That was pathetic, and he hasn't been shown to grow stronger since then. Unless you really want to have that sort of fight happen again, where all of the Totland allies have to juggle Luffy until he can recharge with a Namek-style ten minute countdown.
2. "It doesn't make any sense", Jesus Christ you people just blunder your way through discussions by repeating lines like that.
But it doesn't make any sense. You're proposing a story pattern in One Piece (one-on-one fights) for the sake of it being a pattern without thinking about whether it actually fits or not with the arc narrative and how powerful the characters involved are. Oda does not completely shove them into every type of arc if it doesn't make sense for the narrative. It is really not that hard to read into how and why Oda writes his story. You can't have everything literally spelled out for you all of the time, like a plan that is nearly told in full before being executed having a 99% chance of failure based on simple narrative comprehension demanding that the plot does not proceed as initially planned or else it becomes boring/predictable. He's a good storyteller that tries to leave a trail for twists that he pulls so that they make sense. Once in a while you'll get something that doesn't make any sense at all like Pudding getting bullied because of having a third eye (and even then he did hint at there being some sort of animosity between her and Big Mom in general), but for the most part, he's consistent in building things up.
This is a pretty formulaic series, but it's formulaic more often than not for valid narrative reasons. There's a reason why Luffy didn't beat any of the Admirals or Kuma pre-timeskip. There's a reason why Oda didn't have Luffy or Zoro fully fight Fujitora at the end of Dressrosa, or even fight Burgess. There's a reason why there are huge forces being amassed for the Beast Pirates in Wano Country while the Straw Hats are severely underpowered and undermanned against the Big Mom Pirates in Whole Cake Island. Oda is not going to shove in wins that do not make sense. He's going to have his characters earn legitimate victories in a sensible fashion. The Straw Hats defeating the Big Mom Pirates here, in the middle of their own territory no less, is the exact opposite of that.
If Oda was going to have one-on-one fights with Big Mom's crew, he probably would have tried to give them more personality than stacks of cardboard. Besides having some mildly quirky designs and random powers going for them, they're hardly as individually defined as Baroque Works, CP9, Donquixote Pirates, or even the Arlong/New Fishman Pirates in personality and looks. If you took their quote bubbles, censored the names, and viewed them without any art, you would have no idea which quotes belonged to who aside from Big Mom, Pudding, Tamago, and maybe Bobbin based on speech patterns. We'll probably see a bit of scuffling before Big Mom turns Godzilla again, but nothing fully fleshed out.
My versus board was well thought-out and it displays that for each big name from Big Mom's crew there's a Firetank Alliance counterpart.
It was not well thought-out. You're just pairing up big names with each other or characters that have already fought before while ignoring some of the clear differences in power. Anybody could do that.
3. I don't know why you bring up Doflamingo when it has nothing to do with anything.
Doflamingo has everything to do with this.
4. Well of course they'll need a very big alliance to take over Wano, this situation is VERY different, can't you see that?
Can't you see that because this situation is VERY different, the Big Mom Pirates can't be taken down? You're basically proposing a full scale war scenario like what Wano Country will be. That's what having this many one-on-one battles all over the place is in this type of story. A war. There's already as many match-ups in your list as Dressrosa. Except that Oda will write the Straw Hats being successful here against a Yonko crew with only half the crew present, and barely any allies present. And I mean allies that actually matter and make a difference. Kaido demands big names like multiple Supernovas, Whitebeard Remnants, and the leaders of Zou. Yet Big Mom's crew gets two Minks and the Firetank Pirates, who AT BEST are weaker than Franky and Robin since Bege certainly is. That's way too awkwardly disjointed.
Read that and tell me that Big Mom's "vastly outnumbers" the Firetank Alliance.
It's not about numbers, it's about clear strength. Bege is a tactician, not a fighter. He is hardly going to contribute much of anything in a fight between Luffy and Big Mom, hence why he wanted to have an assassination plan in the first place. Kaido can defeat Kid, Apoo, and Hawkins, but Big Mom goes down to someone on the level of her Sweet Commanders and somebody who really shouldn't be more of a minor nuisance than Brook was. Gear Fourth Luffy barely defeated Cracker and needed Nami's help to do so. And you're proposing that Luffy can defeat Big Mom while Sanji and Jimbei will be able to defeat Sweet Commanders, ones who seem to be even STRONGER than Cracker, on their own? Even if Cracker's Devil Fruit is a specific counter to Luffy's fighting style, the overall power level of the Yonko Commanders are just too much. Sanji and Jimbei can get some action on that front in Wano Country, but until then, they need time to grow. Oda's not going to dedicate so much panel times to fights where main characters (aside from Luffy) are going to lose. And no, Oda is not going to write a decisive fight where a main arc antagonist is weakened by an external element like Caesar's weapons. It would cheapen the portrayal of a Yonko and… This is a shonen action-adventure manga. That stuff NEVER plays a factor in full fights. Even if it seems like there's a team-up against one antagonist at first, it always has to boil down to being a fair one-on-one duel where we decisively know that one opponent is definitively stronger than the other. It's just the way this works unless you're reading a more unconventional series like Hunter x Hunter. Characters might get a bit roughed up before the battle, like Doflamingo fighting Law, but it never contributes as a noticeable factor. The scratches and gore are honestly just glorified cosmetics.
Brook countering the Homies doesn't change anything since fodder never contributes meaningfully in shonen conflicts. And we can't really be sure of the full scale of how much Nami will manipulate Zeus and Prometheus, but even at its highest amount, I can't see Oda writing Zeus and Prometheus knocking out any named fighters.
We're most likely not even going to see any individual fights this arc aside from (hopefully) Sanji. Although maybe we might see a bit of a Pedro vs Count Chicken fight since the latter's transformations were a bit hyped up. When Big Mom goes berserk and won't discriminate friend from foe, nobody's going to think it's the right time to have a Marineford/Dressrosa-style war. Oda underestimates his deadlines all of the time, but even I doubt that he would state the Reverie/Wano Country would occur this year if we were going to have one-on-one fights. This arc was never going to be as long as Dressrosa (that's Wano Country's job), and it should stay that way.
Also Cracker's ability counters Luffy perfectly, since Luffy's a brawler. Katakuri, however, seems to fall in Sanji's cathegory. (Both are CoO specialists)
Except that Sanji's Observation Haki has never been shown to be that special in the manga. Oda highlighted that Zoro is also the most talented in Armament Haki, but are you willing to bet that he can take down Gear Fourth Luffy? Props to Sanji for dodging a jellybean bullet, but it's nothing special. Luffy might have an easier time fighting Katakuri than Cracker, but that doesn't mean jack for a completely different character like Sanji. He fought Doflamingo for a few pages before getting stomped, so of course he's going to be skilled to at least know how to dodge. Doesn't mean he can win or even put up that much of a fight against someone who should be as strong as Doflamingo.
I'm really not trying to be mean here. Just answer yourself one or two things. Why do you think it would be good storytelling on Oda's behalf to have Sanji and Jimbei, Straw Hat crewmates who have not shown strength levels on-par with Gear Fourth, respectively defeat Sweet Commanders in an arc where Luffy, the captain could barely defeat one and needed another crewmate's assistance? And why would you think it would be entertaining to have Big Mom be taken down by half the crew, no matter what circumstances are at play, while Kaido requires the whole crew and many powerful allies? I would like to think that if Big Mom went down this early, Kaido's Yonko hype and intimidating goes down by a noticeable margin. By thinking about these questions, you're getting into Oda's head of how to tell an efficient story.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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@S.C.:
To me, I was actually pretty happy Sanji wasn't a perv for once with his comment at the alter. It made that comment from Reiju about him valid, but also screwed up Big Mom's entire plan, too and well….I'm a sucker for such cute romantic things. :P
Its not really that pervy of a comment, he just said her eyes looked nice. Lol
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@Count:
The evidence is all lined up in Luffy's fight with Cracker. In fact, I bet the reason why Oda showed that fight is because since he knew that Big Mom won't be defeated this arc, he still wanted to give Luffy a win so that he could build up his credibility in taking down Kaido in Wano Country by gradually showing growth in strength. There's also fight with Doflamingo, where he couldn't even fully beat Doflamingo on his own and needed other people to save his life. That was pathetic, and he hasn't been shown to grow stronger since then. Unless you really want to have that sort of fight happen again, where all of the Totland allies have to juggle Luffy until he can recharge with a Namek-style ten minute countdown.
But it doesn't make any sense. You're proposing a story pattern in One Piece (one-on-one fights) for the sake of it being a pattern without thinking about whether it actually fits or not with the arc narrative and how powerful the characters involved are. Oda does not completely shove them into every type of arc if it doesn't make sense for the narrative. It is really not that hard to read into how and why Oda writes his story. You can't have everything literally spelled out for you all of the time, like a plan that is nearly told in full before being executed having a 99% chance of failure based on simple narrative comprehension demanding that the plot does not proceed as initially planned or else it becomes boring/predictable. He's a good storyteller that tries to leave a trail for twists that he pulls so that they make sense. Once in a while you'll get something that doesn't make any sense at all like Pudding getting bullied because of having a third eye (and even then he did hint at there being some sort of animosity between her and Big Mom in general), but for the most part, he's consistent in building things up.
This is a pretty formulaic series, but it's formulaic more often than not for valid narrative reasons. There's a reason why Luffy didn't beat any of the Admirals or Kuma pre-timeskip. There's a reason why Oda didn't have Luffy or Zoro fully fight Fujitora at the end of Dressrosa, or even fight Burgess. There's a reason why there are huge forces being amassed for the Beast Pirates in Wano Country while the Straw Hats are severely underpowered and undermanned against the Big Mom Pirates in Whole Cake Island. Oda is not going to shove in wins that do not make sense. He's going to have his characters earn legitimate victories in a sensible fashion. The Straw Hats defeating the Big Mom Pirates here, in the middle of their own territory no less, is the exact opposite of that.
If Oda was going to have one-on-one fights with Big Mom's crew, he probably would have tried to give them more personality than stacks of cardboard. Besides having some mildly quirky designs and random powers going for them, they're hardly as individually defined as Baroque Works, CP9, Donquixote Pirates, or even the Arlong/New Fishman Pirates in personality and looks. If you took their quote bubbles, censored the names, and viewed them without any art, you would have no idea which quotes belonged to who aside from Big Mom, Pudding, Tamago, and maybe Bobbin based on speech patterns. We'll probably see a bit of scuffling before Big Mom turns Godzilla again, but nothing fully fleshed out.
It was not well thought-out. You're just pairing up big names with each other or characters that have already fought before while ignoring some of the clear differences in power. Anybody could do that.
Doflamingo has everything to do with this.
Can't you see that because this situation is VERY different, that the Big Mom Pirates can't be taken down? You're basically proposing a full scale war just like what Wano Country will be. That's what having this many one-on-one battles all over the place is, a war. There's already as many match-ups in your lis as Dressrosa. Except that Oda will write the Straw Hats being successful here with only half the crew present, and barely any allies present. And I mean allies that actually matter and make a difference. Kaido demands big names like multiple Supernovas, Whitebeard Remnants, and the leaders of Zou. Yet Big Mom's crew gets two Minks and the Firetank Pirates, who AT BEST are weaker than Franky and Robin since Bege certainly is. That's way too awkwardly disjointed.
It's not about numbers, it's about clear strength. Bege is a tactician, not a fighter. He is hardly going to contribute much of anything in a fight between Luffy and Big Mom, hence why he wanted to have an assassination plan in the first place. Kaido can defeat Kid, Apoo, and Hawkins, but Big Mom goes down to someone on the level of her Sweet Commanders and somebody who really shouldn't be more of a minor nuisance than Brook was. Gear Fourth Luffy barely defeated Cracker and needed Nami's help to do so. And you're proposing that Luffy can defeat Big Mom while Sanji and Jimbei will be able to defeat Sweet Commanders, ones who seem to be even STRONGER than Cracker, on their own? Even if Cracker's Devil Fruit is a specific counter to Luffy's fighting style, the overall power level of the Yonko Commanders are just too much. Sanji and Jimbei can get some action on that front in Wano Country, but until then, they need time to grow. Oda's not going to dedicate so much panel times to fights where main characters (aside from Luffy) are going to lose. And no, Oda is not going to write a decisive fight where a main arc antagonist is weakened by an external element like Caesar's weapons. It would cheapen the portrayal of a Yonko and… This is a shonen action-adventure manga. That stuff NEVER plays a factor in full fights. Even if it seems like there's a team-up against one antagonist at first, it always has to boil down to being a fair one-on-one duel where we decisively know that one opponent is definitively stronger than the other. It's just the way this works unless you're reading a more unconventional series like Hunter x Hunter. Characters might get a bit roughed up before the battle, like Doflamingo fighting Law, but it never contributes as a noticeable factor. The scratches and gore are honestly just glorified cosmetics.
Brook countering the Homies doesn't change anything since fodder never contributes meaningfully in shonen conflicts. And we can't really be sure of the full scale of how much Nami will manipulate Zeus and Prometheus, but even at its highest amount, I can't see Oda writing Zeus and Prometheus knocking out any named fighters.
We're most likely not even going to see any individual fights this arc aside from (hopefully) Sanji. Although maybe we might see a bit of a Pedro vs Count Chicken fight since the latter's transformations were a bit hyped up. When Big Mom goes berserk and won't discriminate friend from foe, nobody's going to think it's the right time to have a Marineford/Dressrosa-style war. Oda underestimates his deadlines all of the time, but even I doubt that he would state the Reverie/Wano Country would occur this year if we were going to have one-on-one fights. This arc was never going to be as long as Dressrosa (that's Wano Country's job), and it should stay that way.
Except that Sanji's Observation Haki has never been shown to be that special in the manga. Oda highlighted that Zoro is also the most talented in Armament Haki, but are you willing to bet that he can take down Gear Fourth Luffy? Props to Sanji for dodging a jellybean bullet, but it's nothing special. Luffy might have an easier time fighting Katakuri than Cracker, but that doesn't mean jack for a completely different character like Sanji. He fought Doflamingo for a few pages before getting stomped, so of course he's going to be skilled to at least know how to dodge. Doesn't mean he can win or even put up that much of a fight against someone who should be as strong as Doflamingo.
Like, I'm not trying to be mean here. Just answer me one or things. Why do you think it would be good storytelling on Oda's behalf to have Sanji and Jimbei, Straw Hat crewmates who have not shown strength levels on-par with Gear Fourth, respectively defeat Sweet Commanders in an arc where Luffy, the captain could barely defeat one and needed another crewmate's assistance? And why would you think it would be entertaining to have Big Mom be taken down by half the crew, no matter what circumstances are at play, while Kaido requires the whole crew and many powerful allies? I would like to think that if Big Mom went down this early, Kaido's Yonko hype and intimidating goes down by a noticeable margin. By thinking about these questions, you're getting into Oda's head of how to tell an efficient story.
But Count did you see the glare??? Lol
sidenote: dont know if you watch/read my hero academia (I just finished the first season) but perhaps sanji's brothers, like IMO ichiji will take real offense to sanjisaving the day, seing that as sanji belittling him much like how bakugo thought miyadoria was doing. That could piss him off into a fight where sanji gets to beat some semse into him and establish that hard work can = good genes and all. That kind of stuff is one way we could still get a fight.
Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
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@Long:
Its not really that pervy of a comment, he just said her eyes looked nice. Lol
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But Count did you see the glare??? Lol
sidenote: dont know if you watch/read my hero academia (I just finished the first season) but perhaps sanji's brothers, like IMO ichiji will take real offense to sanjisaving the day, seing that as sanji belittling him much like how bakugo thought miyadoria was doing. That could piss him off into a fight where sanji gets to beat some semse into him and establish that hard work can = good genes and all. That kind of stuff is one way we could still get a fight.
Yup you are right. Slept over it and it is far to early for Sanji to take the likes of Katakuri.
But I like your idea with the bros.
Still want to know what the Vinsmokes will do now… and if they can fight without their weapons
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Just to second Count Mario, Luffy straight-up beating Big Mom here would completely undercut the Four Emperors, the upcoming Wano arc, the entire story…it does not make sense at all. None. It's one of the Emperors we're talking here, like one of the handful of strongest people in the entire world.
I've seen people who think this arc is at like the halfway point...this is very clearly the climax. Like come on, everything's been building toward this tea party, where things explode in regular One Piece fashion. And then they will narrowly escape after the plan goes tits up. And Big Mom will be very pissed.
I actually think Big Mom's inability to add giants to her family and their hatred for her may be setting her up as the villain for when we head to Elbaf after Wano. But Kaido is very clearly the first Emperor going down to Luffy, and the Wano arc will probably be around Dressrosa-length, not relatively short like this one.
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Read that and tell me that Big Mom's "vastly outnumbers" the Firetank Alliance.
It's more than just putting names against each other, anyone can do that. Your math doesn't add up.
Whenever Oda have someone fight along with Luffy, those two will not be taking punches on Big Mom at the same time. Each person will have their time while the other will be busy with something else. Do you really think Bege can hold Big Mom for whatever delay Luffy may encounter? The same Bege that turned at the site of Big Mom commanders?
At the risk of power levels, do you seriously believe Sanji will beat Katakuri? Then you pair a lady against Brooke. Come on now.
I use Mingo as example because it was half of SHs on Dressrosa but they were backed with strong warriors in their own right.The story you propose doesn't make sense because if you consider Kaidou and Big Mom on equal footing, why will Kaidou require so much preparation to defeat and Big Mom less? Yes Kaidou is on Wano with all his crew and some of the Shogun warriors on his side including the Shogun himself. There is a still another half of the country that is against Kaidou which will add to Luffy's team, plus Two mink monsters, Law, Kid, Entire SHs, Marco and we still don't know what will add to it. Despite all that, SHs will barely win in Wano. If the story line here is about defeating Big Mom, Brook would not have stolen the Polynegliffs prints. I mean why bother then everyone will be crushed.
The recurring theme so far on this island has been escape, escape and escape. Lastly, everyone is on top of that building, do you believe all that fight will happen up there? This is not royal rumble ffs.
Don't get me wrong, they will their cameo against some of these monsters, it will not be more than that. It's for them to have a feel of what's to come.
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@Count:
Like, I'm not trying to be mean here. Just answer me one or things. Why do you think it would be good storytelling on Oda's behalf to have Sanji and Jimbei, Straw Hat crewmates who have not shown strength levels on-par with Gear Fourth, respectively defeat Sweet Commanders in an arc where Luffy, the captain could barely defeat one and needed another crewmate's assistance? And why would you think it would be entertaining to have Big Mom be taken down by half the crew, no matter what circumstances are at play, while Kaido requires the whole crew and many powerful allies? I would like to think that if Big Mom went down this early, Kaido's Yonko hype and intimidating goes down by a noticeable margin. By thinking about these questions, you're getting into Oda's head of how to tell an efficient story.
I honestly disagree and think that if Luffy fought Cracker one on one, he would have found a way to close the distance and win, I also think he has something else up his sleeve that he hasn't revealed yet. I know I'm definitely in the minority here, but Luffy should be on a Yonko Commander's level by now in the story, if it turns out he isn't I'm going to be extremely disappointed in Oda. This is the future Pirate King we're talking about here, I'm not expecting him to take down Admirals or Yonko's themselves, but he should be able to put up a good fight with a Yonko Commander with no assistance which I believe he can do. I mean shit if he's not even Yonko commander level why even bother going to Wano? They'd need to continue training instead of wasting time getting fodderized in Wano.
Andy Dalton the GOAT.
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I honestly disagree and think that if Luffy fought Cracker one on one, he would have found a way to close the distance and win, I also think he has something else up his sleeve that he hasn't revealed yet. I know I'm definitely in the minority here, but Luffy should be on a Yonko Commander's level by now in the story, if it turns out he isn't I'm going to be extremely disappointed in Oda. This is the future Pirate King we're talking about here, I'm not expecting him to take down Admirals or Yonko's themselves, but he should be able to put up a good fight with a Yonko Commander with no assistance which I believe he can do. I mean shit if he's not even Yonko commander level why even bother going to Wano? They'd need to continue training instead of wasting time getting fodderized in Wano.
Yes he's the future Pirate King but he's still developing. Pay attention to the details. Crackers fight was quite revealing. Luffy was getting holes in him at Dressrosa, on WCI, his Haki was strong enough to withstand Crackers blade and he comment on the strength on Crackers's Haki. Luffy is the type that learn from personal experience. By the time he's going against Kaidou, his Haki will be ridiculous. He will also learn something with the little encounter he will have against Big Mom.
Luffy is the type that will always need help, not because he's not strong enough but he trust and relies on his friends. He said this back when he fought Arlong.
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I honestly disagree and think that if Luffy fought Cracker one on one, he would have found a way to close the distance and win, I also think he has something else up his sleeve that he hasn't revealed yet. I know I'm definitely in the minority here, but Luffy should be on a Yonko Commander's level by now in the story, if it turns out he isn't I'm going to be extremely disappointed in Oda. This is the future Pirate King we're talking about here, I'm not expecting him to take down Admirals or Yonko's themselves, but he should be able to put up a good fight with a Yonko Commander with no assistance which I believe he can do. I mean shit if he's not even Yonko commander level why even bother going to Wano? They'd need to continue training instead of wasting time getting fodderized in Wano.
I didn't mean to imply that it was completely impossible for Luffy to defeat Cracker. There might still be a slim chance he could on his own (and I would like to think so if he's going to defeat Kaido in the next arc). And he might have more forms of Gear Fourth up his sleeve. I don't disagree with you at all. He should be on the level of the Yonko Commanders. But the fact he even considered to rely on Nami's help at all perfectly highlights the gap between him and Big Mom.
And regardless of whether he is stronger than Cracker on his own, Sereques is very much right about how fights like this and perhaps an incomplete one with Big Mom will help Luffy grow in time for huge threats like Kaido.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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@Count:
The evidence is all lined up in Luffy's fight with Cracker. In fact, I bet the reason why Oda showed that fight is because since he knew that Big Mom won't be defeated this arc, he still wanted to give Luffy a win so that he could build up his credibility in taking down Kaido in Wano Country by gradually showing growth in strength. There's also fight with Doflamingo, where he couldn't even fully beat Doflamingo on his own and needed other people to save his life. That was pathetic, and he hasn't been shown to grow stronger since then. Unless you really want to have that sort of fight happen again, where all of the Totland allies have to juggle Luffy until he can recharge with a Namek-style ten minute countdown.
But it doesn't make any sense. You're proposing a story pattern in One Piece (one-on-one fights) for the sake of it being a pattern without thinking about whether it actually fits or not with the arc narrative and how powerful the characters involved are. Oda does not completely shove them into every type of arc if it doesn't make sense for the narrative. It is really not that hard to read into how and why Oda writes his story. You can't have everything literally spelled out for you all of the time, like a plan that is nearly told in full before being executed having a 99% chance of failure based on simple narrative comprehension demanding that the plot does not proceed as initially planned or else it becomes boring/predictable. He's a good storyteller that tries to leave a trail for twists that he pulls so that they make sense. Once in a while you'll get something that doesn't make any sense at all like Pudding getting bullied because of having a third eye (and even then he did hint at there being some sort of animosity between her and Big Mom in general), but for the most part, he's consistent in building things up.
This is a pretty formulaic series, but it's formulaic more often than not for valid narrative reasons. There's a reason why Luffy didn't beat any of the Admirals or Kuma pre-timeskip. There's a reason why Oda didn't have Luffy or Zoro fully fight Fujitora at the end of Dressrosa, or even fight Burgess. There's a reason why there are huge forces being amassed for the Beast Pirates in Wano Country while the Straw Hats are severely underpowered and undermanned against the Big Mom Pirates in Whole Cake Island. Oda is not going to shove in wins that do not make sense. He's going to have his characters earn legitimate victories in a sensible fashion. The Straw Hats defeating the Big Mom Pirates here, in the middle of their own territory no less, is the exact opposite of that.
If Oda was going to have one-on-one fights with Big Mom's crew, he probably would have tried to give them more personality than stacks of cardboard. Besides having some mildly quirky designs and random powers going for them, they're hardly as individually defined as Baroque Works, CP9, Donquixote Pirates, or even the Arlong/New Fishman Pirates in personality and looks. If you took their quote bubbles, censored the names, and viewed them without any art, you would have no idea which quotes belonged to who aside from Big Mom, Pudding, Tamago, and maybe Bobbin based on speech patterns. We'll probably see a bit of scuffling before Big Mom turns Godzilla again, but nothing fully fleshed out.
It was not well thought-out. You're just pairing up big names with each other or characters that have already fought before while ignoring some of the clear differences in power. Anybody could do that.
Doflamingo has everything to do with this.
Can't you see that because this situation is VERY different, that the Big Mom Pirates can't be taken down? You're basically proposing a full scale war just like what Wano Country will be. That's what having this many one-on-one battles all over the place is, a war. There's already as many match-ups in your lis as Dressrosa. Except that Oda will write the Straw Hats being successful here with only half the crew present, and barely any allies present. And I mean allies that actually matter and make a difference. Kaido demands big names like multiple Supernovas, Whitebeard Remnants, and the leaders of Zou. Yet Big Mom's crew gets two Minks and the Firetank Pirates, who AT BEST are weaker than Franky and Robin since Bege certainly is. That's way too awkwardly disjointed.
It's not about numbers, it's about clear strength. Bege is a tactician, not a fighter. He is hardly going to contribute much of anything in a fight between Luffy and Big Mom, hence why he wanted to have an assassination plan in the first place. Kaido can defeat Kid, Apoo, and Hawkins, but Big Mom goes down to someone on the level of her Sweet Commanders and somebody who really shouldn't be more of a minor nuisance than Brook was. Gear Fourth Luffy barely defeated Cracker and needed Nami's help to do so. And you're proposing that Luffy can defeat Big Mom while Sanji and Jimbei will be able to defeat Sweet Commanders, ones who seem to be even STRONGER than Cracker, on their own? Even if Cracker's Devil Fruit is a specific counter to Luffy's fighting style, the overall power level of the Yonko Commanders are just too much. Sanji and Jimbei can get some action on that front in Wano Country, but until then, they need time to grow. Oda's not going to dedicate so much panel times to fights where main characters (aside from Luffy) are going to lose. And no, Oda is not going to write a decisive fight where a main arc antagonist is weakened by an external element like Caesar's weapons. It would cheapen the portrayal of a Yonko and… This is a shonen action-adventure manga. That stuff NEVER plays a factor in full fights. Even if it seems like there's a team-up against one antagonist at first, it always has to boil down to being a fair one-on-one duel where we decisively know that one opponent is definitively stronger than the other. It's just the way this works unless you're reading a more unconventional series like Hunter x Hunter. Characters might get a bit roughed up before the battle, like Doflamingo fighting Law, but it never contributes as a noticeable factor. The scratches and gore are honestly just glorified cosmetics.
Brook countering the Homies doesn't change anything since fodder never contributes meaningfully in shonen conflicts. And we can't really be sure of the full scale of how much Nami will manipulate Zeus and Prometheus, but even at its highest amount, I can't see Oda writing Zeus and Prometheus knocking out any named fighters.
We're most likely not even going to see any individual fights this arc aside from (hopefully) Sanji. Although maybe we might see a bit of a Pedro vs Count Chicken fight since the latter's transformations were a bit hyped up. When Big Mom goes berserk and won't discriminate friend from foe, nobody's going to think it's the right time to have a Marineford/Dressrosa-style war. Oda underestimates his deadlines all of the time, but even I doubt that he would state the Reverie/Wano Country would occur this year if we were going to have one-on-one fights. This arc was never going to be as long as Dressrosa (that's Wano Country's job), and it should stay that way.
Except that Sanji's Observation Haki has never been shown to be that special in the manga. Oda highlighted that Zoro is also the most talented in Armament Haki, but are you willing to bet that he can take down Gear Fourth Luffy? Props to Sanji for dodging a jellybean bullet, but it's nothing special. Luffy might have an easier time fighting Katakuri than Cracker, but that doesn't mean jack for a completely different character like Sanji. He fought Doflamingo for a few pages before getting stomped, so of course he's going to be skilled to at least know how to dodge. Doesn't mean he can win or even put up that much of a fight against someone who should be as strong as Doflamingo.
Like, I'm not trying to be mean here. Just answer me one or things. Why do you think it would be good storytelling on Oda's behalf to have Sanji and Jimbei, Straw Hat crewmates who have not shown strength levels on-par with Gear Fourth, respectively defeat Sweet Commanders in an arc where Luffy, the captain could barely defeat one and needed another crewmate's assistance? And why would you think it would be entertaining to have Big Mom be taken down by half the crew, no matter what circumstances are at play, while Kaido requires the whole crew and many powerful allies? I would like to think that if Big Mom went down this early, Kaido's Yonko hype and intimidating goes down by a noticeable margin. By thinking about these questions, you're getting into Oda's head of how to tell an efficient story.
What the fuck. No way I'm ever going to make it to the end of that gigantic, pretentious, bullshit post.
Victim of the corrupted Arlong Park staff.
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What the fuck. No way I'm ever going to make it to the end of that gigantic, pretentious, bullshit post.
Everyone's feedback to your comment at least has more thought put into them than the list of battles you made.
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@Count:
I didn't mean to imply that it was completely impossible for Luffy to defeat Cracker. There might still be a slim chance he could on his own (and I would like to think so if he's going to defeat Kaido in the next arc). And he might have more forms of Gear Fourth up his sleeve. I don't disagree with you at all. He should be on the level of the Yonko Commanders. But the fact he even considered to rely on Nami's help at all perfectly highlights the gap between him and Big Mom.
And regardless of whether he is stronger than Cracker on his own, Sereques is very much right about how fights like this and perhaps an incomplete one with Big Mom will help Luffy grow in time for huge threats like Kaido.
That's true, it just seems like Luffy doesn't get his dues around here. He's stronger than a lot of people here think.
Andy Dalton the GOAT.
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That's true, it just seems like Luffy doesn't get his dues around here. He's stronger than a lot of people here think.
I understand. Oda consistently making Luffy the underdog can make that impression on people.
His fight against Doflamingo was still pathetic though.
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Whenever Oda have someone fight along with Luffy, those two will not be taking punches on Big Mom at the same time. Each person will have their time while the other will be busy with something else. Do you really think Bege can hold Big Mom for whatever delay Luffy may encounter? The same Bege that turned at the site of Big Mom commanders?
I agree with that sentiment, that if Bege had to hold Big Mom it'd be over. However why would he? Luffy is the bait, so he's the one that'd be holding Big Mom.
At the risk of power levels, do you seriously believe Sanji will beat Katakuri? Then you pair a lady against Brooke. Come on now.
I use Mingo as example because it was half of SHs on Dressrosa but they were backed with strong warriors in their own right.Yes, I believe Sanji has the potential to beat Katakuri. Why not? because he got beaten by Doflamingo and hurt by Vergo? that doesn't mean he doesn't have hidden power-ups. He probably does, just like Luffy saved Gear Fourth for untill Dressrosa. I respond to the rest in the next quote.
The story you propose doesn't make sense because if you consider Kaidou and Big Mom on equal footing, why will Kaidou require so much preparation to defeat and Big Mom less? Yes Kaidou is on Wano with all his crew and some of the Shogun warriors on his side including the Shogun himself. There is a still another half of the country that is against Kaidou which will add to Luffy's team, plus Two mink monsters, Law, Kid, Entire SHs, Marco and we still don't know what will add to it. Despite all that, SHs will barely win in Wano. If the story line here is about defeating Big Mom, Brook would not have stolen the Polynegliffs prints. I mean why bother then everyone will be crushed.
Because most of the difficulty in battling a Yonkou is getting to him. Much like Luffy needed help to reach Doflamingo (that is, get past the Donquixote Family) in Dressrosa. In this arc, however, they cheated, they're already next to a Yonkou and have a means to murder her. If half the crew with those few allies tried to invade Whole Cake, they would have failed miserably. Under these circumstances, though (lethal weapons and the whole team being already next to Big Mom) it might succeed.
Additionally I don't think murdering Big Mom under these favourable circumstances would de-hype Kaido at all.
The recurring theme so far on this island has been escape, escape and escape. Lastly, everyone is on top of that building, do you believe all that fight will happen up there? This is not royal rumble ffs.
Yes. I might be wrong or not but that's what I think.
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Away from this this and back to Pudding
Pudding is the most interesting character this arc and we still have at least 3 questions left for her
Third Eye ability, which I think she has already but for reasons hasn't told Big Mom
The whole scene with Lola… It made no sense after her evil twist but now it makes again... but I think there is more to it
The quote about her erasing a lot of memories after the wedding. This implies she has done it in the past already but why and to who?
I speculated that Maybe the Elbaf prince wanted to marry her but she said no but with her powers blamed Lola being the one who denied the wedding.
But now I don't know...
And of course her Cafe is called Caramel.
Maybe she will have something to do with Pudding as well -
People are underestimating don flamingo and sanji! Do you guys remember the white beard war? Don flamingo held his own against the whitebeard commanders. He even stopped jozu, the same way he stopped sanji. It is not a stretch at for sanji to be damn close to commander level. He is going to progress this arc as he had a few skirmishes in derossa and Zou. I think he will trade blows with some top guns here and hold his own for a little bit.
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@Long:
Its not really that pervy of a comment, he just said her eyes looked nice. Lol
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
But Count did you see the glare??? Lol
sidenote: dont know if you watch/read my hero academia (I just finished the first season) but perhaps sanji's brothers, like IMO ichiji will take real offense to sanjisaving the day, seing that as sanji belittling him much like how bakugo thought miyadoria was doing. That could piss him off into a fight where sanji gets to beat some semse into him and establish that hard work can = good genes and all. That kind of stuff is one way we could still get a fight.
Sanji gave Bege a nasty glare once. The next minute, he drops his cigarette on the floor after reading a Save the Date card and ends up getting kidnapped.
I'm a huge superhero fan, so of course I read it lol. I'm always game for Sanji fighting a Vinsmoke during the wedding, and that type of denial in the moment would make sense. As if it Ichiji would be so ashamed to be saved by Sanji that he would actually rather die. Unfortunately, the Vinsmoke Bros lack so much character besides being bully caricatures that I would feel like Ichiji suddenly displaying profound thoughts and emotions like this to be random as hell.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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@Count:
Sanji gave Bege a nasty glare once. The next minute, he drops his cigarette on the floor after reading a Save the Date card and ends up getting kidnapped.
I'm a huge superhero fan, so of course I read it lol. I'm always game for Sanji fighting a Vinsmoke during the wedding, and that type of denial in the moment would make sense. As if it Ichiji would be so ashamed to be saved by Sanji that he would actually rather die. Unfortunately, the Vinsmoke Bros lack so much character besides being bully caricatures that I would feel like Ichiji suddenly displaying profound thoughts and emotions like this to be random as hell.
That glare doesn't count because he went with them because of blackmail. Sanji had a better showing against don flamingo then the whitebeard commanders did. Don Flamingo is definately yonkou commander level.
yeah im here
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That glare doesn't count because he went with them because of blackmail. Sanji had a better showing against don flamingo then the whitebeard commanders did. Don Flamingo is definately yonkou commander level.
It was merely a joke. I wasn't actually implying that somebody like Bege can actually give Sanji a real run for his money.
But the fact that Doflamingo is on the level of a Yonko Commander, which is the same level as Luffy, heavily implies that Sanji is below that level. Not too far where he can't catch up in the next arc or more, but it's still a noticeable gap.
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@Count:
Except that Sanji's Observation Haki has never been shown to be that special in the manga. Oda highlighted that Zoro is also the most talented in Armament Haki, but are you willing to bet that he can take down Gear Fourth Luffy? Props to Sanji for dodging a jellybean bullet, but it's nothing special. Luffy might have an easier time fighting Katakuri than Cracker, but that doesn't mean jack for a completely different character like Sanji. He fought Doflamingo for a few pages before getting stomped, so of course he's going to be skilled to at least know how to dodge. Doesn't mean he can win or even put up that much of a fight against someone who should be as strong as Doflamingo.
I'm really not trying to be mean here. Just answer yourself one or two things. Why do you think it would be good storytelling on Oda's behalf to have Sanji and Jimbei, Straw Hat crewmates who have not shown strength levels on-par with Gear Fourth, respectively defeat Sweet Commanders in an arc where Luffy, the captain could barely defeat one and needed another crewmate's assistance? And why would you think it would be entertaining to have Big Mom be taken down by half the crew, no matter what circumstances are at play, while Kaido requires the whole crew and many powerful allies? I would like to think that if Big Mom went down this early, Kaido's Yonko hype and intimidating goes down by a noticeable margin. By thinking about these questions, you're getting into Oda's head of how to tell an efficient story.
Oh but sanji was always the guy good at dodging attacks, that goes hand in hand with coo. Heck, maybe zoro's lionsong that defeated mr 1 was also armaments. and he also used it to damage kuma.
Sanji vs norland cricket. sanji was dodging bullets from very close range from him, more. If that wasn't coo, I don't know what is. Sure, they didn't even knew they had it or what it is, since haki was still anyone's guess pre ts.
Also let's not compare 2 enemies. Doflamingo did to jozu same thing he did to sanji, yet none complains doflamingo is much stronger then jozu.
2 enemies provide 2 different types of fights, it's not the same, they don't have the same level of doriki like cp9 lol. Even then, jabra with kaku that have identical number of doriki provided different fights. Looking how complex DF powers are today, updated with awakening post ts, defeating one enemy doesn't translates as defeating someone with similar reputation too.
Cracker only lasted long because it was ''fight, eat, run'' game, not proper battle. And cracker could give that same difficulty to anyone, bm included. The second luffy touched cracker himself, not his armors, it was 1 hit ko win.
And sanji is bound to get power up in his first real battle post ts. same way luffy goes from '' but he needs 2 more years of time skipp to beat doflamingo'' to '' wow a new gear …. 4 ''.
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Sanji hasn't dodged anything that Luffy and Zoro haven't also done. Like Zoro dodging a bullet shot by a Celestial Dragon in Sabaody Archipelago.
And they are around the same level. They don't have to be exactly matched, and they can specialize in different things. But they're going to share their own general weight class. No Emperor is ever going to lose to someone in the Warlords (unless you want to debate Mihawk for some reason).
Sanji can get any power-up he wants. But there's a difference between a power-up and suddenly becoming as strong as his captain's strongest form.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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I seriously don't think that Luffy and co will be able to fight and win against Big Mom family and other soldiers (I don't think Luffy has totally recover from all his fights and running). But the assassination plan might still work. So we could have Big Mom being defeated in the arc, but still have her family posing a threat for later.
About Doflamingo, it was more a lack of luck than a lack of strenght if Luffy needed help. Just a few second more in gear 4th and Doffy would have been beaten in the first round.
3DS FC : 0559-6804-1461
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@Count:
Sanji hasn't dodged anything that Luffy and Zoro haven't also done. Like Zoro dodging a bullet shot by a Celestial Dragon in Sabaody Archipelago.
And they are around the same level. They don't have to be exactly matched, and they can specialize in different things. But they're going to share their own general weight class. No Emperor is ever going to lose to someone in the Warlords (unless you want to debate Mihawk for some reason).
Sanji can get any power-up he wants. But there's a difference between a power-up and suddenly becoming as strong as his captain's strongest form.
His captain strongest form 1 shot cracker, tankman. And likely many of luffy's attacks would 1 shot him since cracker's biggest weakness was that he is scared of pain. it's just that his armors got in the way. And even if luffy would beat bm this arc, oda will find a way to still make it interesting next time if he found a way to make warlords still hard even when luffy already beat 2 pre ts before the 2 years of training. For a fact we know bm's fruit won't even work on luffy since you either need to be scared/run away or you just give up the years on your own.
Also, same way luffy got help sanji can get help in the fight. judge can help him in the fight, ichiji can help him.
Debate power levels when sugar could 1 shot any character in op and turn them into toys. Yet he is not even in doflmiango's top men.
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@Count:
Sanji hasn't dodged anything that Luffy and Zoro haven't also done. Like Zoro dodging a bullet shot by a Celestial Dragon in Sabaody Archipelago.
And they are around the same level. They don't have to be exactly matched, and they can specialize in different things. But they're going to share their own general weight class. No Emperor is ever going to lose to someone in the Warlords (unless you want to debate Mihawk for some reason).
Sanji can get any power-up he wants. But there's a difference between a power-up and suddenly becoming as strong as his captain's strongest form.
Just about the dodging. It's different because Sanji hasn't even seen Katakuri while Zoro was pointed at. Same for all other scenes where people dodged bullets
You can't dehype that dodge because it was more a hype for CoO than reaction speed.
Katakuri was even surprised as fuck. Why would he be surprised by a bullet dodging if it is a pre timeskip feat.
So you can't compare it by not saying that Zoro or Luffy couldn't do the same.
PS
Not saying Sanji can beat him or something -
@uniaka:
His captain strongest form 1 shot cracker, tankman. And likely many of luffy's attacks would 1 shot him since cracker's biggest weakness was that he is scared of pain. it's just that his armors got in the way.
And you ignore that same way luffy got help sanji can get help in the fight.
Also, same way luffy got help sanji can get help in the fight. judge can help him in the fight, ichiji can help him.
Debate power levels when sugar could 1 shot any character in op and turn them into toys. Yet he is not even in doflmiango's top men.
And Zoro one-shots all of his opponents with a single slice and then a clever one-liner. That does not mean there was not a lot of effort, blocking, power building, and pain in the process. Cracker's bodily durability is certainly weak in and of itself, but his Haki and Devil Fruit greatly compensates for that. Hence why he is a Sweet Commander.
The only one who we know who is strong enough to help Sanji in the fight against Katakuri is Jimbei. And assuming that they're even strong enough as a team to beat him, who is going to defeat Smoothie after they come out of the fight with Katakuri heavily injured/tired out?
Sugar doesn't erase power levels. She just has an extremely overpowered and convenient ability. There's a reason why Oda have that power to a girl. It's the same reason why none of the Yonko have, say, Cracker's Devil Fruit, or else they would probably be overpowered in their own right. Imagine if Luffy fought a version of Cracker that did not get taken out in one shot outside of his armor. Oda as a storyteller is not going to have one character in a specific group ranking of a faction completely eclipse their other members. They're going to be around the same level, or else there's no point in giving them a title like the "Sweet Commanders" or "Calamities" in the first place. As a storyteller, he's going to make his characters be "balanced" so that the heroes can convincingly win. Every character needs their own limitations in the scope of their position or else they will just look unappealing. Every once in a while, you might get a Luffy/Enel and Brook/Big Mom situation, but those are rare and make relative sense. And in the case of the latter, Big Mom's "power level" was still too huge to be trumped.
Just about the dodging. It's different because Sanji hasn't even seen Katakuri while Zoro was pointed at. Same for all other scenes where people dodged bullets
You can't dehype that dodge because it was more a hype for CoO than reaction speed.
Katakuri was even surprised as fuck. Why would he be surprised by a bullet dodging if it is a pre timeskip feat.
So you can't compare it by not saying that Zoro or Luffy couldn't do the same.
PS
Not saying Sanji can beat him or somethingI can concede that. Sanji's feat is definitely more special considering the context. Although I wouldn't automatically assume Luffy and Zoro couldn't have reacted similarly.
And we should always remember that Oda's going to hype feats like bullet dodging in general throughout this entire manga. The same way that he's going to have explosive blasts and guns still be regarded as big threats.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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Just a few chapters back it seemed like Sanji would save the Vinsmokes with them suffering from knowing that fact.
But right now, Judge and Ichiji seem confused what is going on, who shot at who etc. so they don´t feel threatened becasue they have not yet been openly attacked. There were even thought bubbles of BM pirates who were uncertain about their next move.
Then an x number of Luffys appears.
Basically, at this point, there´s a huge probability everyone including the Vinsmokes will turn their attention to Luffy and co., later to surviving an enraged Godzilla BM encounter (which I hope will be very scary, I expect her to one-shot Katakuri or something). They might not even recognize they are being saved and attack the SHs, ironically clashing with their savior bro in the process.
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To everyone discussing SHs defeating BM this arc:
1. her Road Poneglyph gets stolen
2. her primal desire to eat the very special Cake is left unfulfilled
3. her plan to acquire the Vinsmoke technology fails
4. the ones responsible for all of that leave her territory aliveBasically a Yonkou, who is used to getting whatever (more like everything) she desires, NOT getting, even losing stuff that´s precious to her or that she´s been very eager to acquire for a long time, is a clear defeat.
Imagine if this was Luffy and somebody stole Sunny, ate all of the celebrational banquet food (meat) prepared by Sanji and abducted one of his crewmates who Luffy would fail to retrieve. It´s that bad.
He wouldn´t have to be knocked out to feel utterly destroyed and/or angry. In fact, something like that that has already happed in the story (Sabaody, Ace).
What I am trying to say is that when they actually survive the trip with the damage they´ve already caused up to this point, BM suffers a huge loss, one she has not experienced in years (Roger, Giants). So yeah, Luffy beats BM here without the KO (kill), which is being set up for Kaidou. A more definite BM defeat may come later down the road, if the plot requires it.
But for such a "defeat" to work, we have to be shown and be persuaded (buy it) that a literal KO was out of the question and surviving with all the damage done is already a huge achievement.
I am hoping for a really, really scary BM rampage now.
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Just a few chapters back it seemed like Sanji would save the Vinsmokes with them suffering from knowing that fact.
But right now, Judge and Ichiji seem confused what is going on, who shot at who etc. so they don´t feel threatened becasue they have not yet been openly attacked. There were even thought bubbles of BM pirates who were uncertain about their next move.
Then an x number of Luffys appears.
Basically, at this point, there´s a huge probability everyone including the Vinsmokes will turn their attention to Luffy and co., later to surviving an enraged Godzilla BM encounter (which I hope will be very scary, I expect her to one-shot Katakuri or something). They might not even recognize they are being saved and attack the SHs, ironically clashing with their savior bro in the process.
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To everyone discussing SHs defeating BM this arc:
1. her Road Poneglyph gets stolen
2. her primal desire to eat the very special Cake is left unfulfilled
3. her plan to acquire the Vinsmoke technology fails
4. the ones responsible for all of that leave her territory aliveBasically a Yonkou, who is used to getting whatever (more like everything) she desires, NOT getting, even losing stuff that´s precious to her or that she´s been very eager to acquire for a long time, is a clear defeat.
Imagine if this was Luffy and somebody stole Sunny, ate all of the celebrational banquet food (meat) prepared by Sanji and abducted one of his crewmates who Luffy would fail to retrieve. It´s that bad.
He wouldn´t have to be knocked out to feel utterly destroyed and/or angry. In fact, something like that that has already happed in the story (Sabaody, Ace).
What I am trying to say, when they actually survive the trip with the damage they´ve already caused up to this point, BM suffers a huge loss, one she has not experienced in years (Roger, Giants).
So yeah, Luffy beats BM here without the KO (kill), which is being set up for Kaidou. A more definite BM defeat may come later down the road, if the plot requires it.But yeah, for such a defeat to work, we have to be shown and be persuaded (buy it) that a literal KO was out of the question and surviving with all the damage done is already a huge achievement.
I am hoping for a really, really scary BM rampage.
The point is that reiju knows, so she will tel lthem, they trust her. She won't allow her family to team up with bm pirates on sanji and friends when she wants him to survive.
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@Monkey:
So we could have Big Mom being defeated in the arc, but still have her family posing a threat for later.
In view that her family had been a total joke (for a Yonkou crew)so far in this arc, I dont think they would pose any future threat at all without BM
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With Pudding behaviour this chapter, I think we can rule out the theory she was the big mastermind and had changed the memory of everybody
Also I’m surprised so many people believe she may have been adopted, it does not really makes sense to me
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With Pudding behaviour this chapter, I think we can rule out the theory she was the big mastermind and had changed the memory of everybody
Now now, let's not rush on ahead with discarding it yet. Especially when we still haven't gotten a flashback as to what happened when Lola left Totland. And it's not as if Pudding HAS to be an irredeemable villain to get away with manipulating the memories of a mother who mocks her appearance.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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There is someone who still believes the assassination plan will work?
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I'm really hoping for Ryokugyu to storm the place and capture some of the underworld leaders
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Aaaand my interest in this arc has dropped a tiny bit more. -_-
However, I will say that the ending was freaking hilarious, plus I'll be looking forward to Sanji potentially fighting Katakuri!
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The people writing the longest posts get the most things wrong. Quit underestimating Luffy, quit underestimating Sanji, and quit thinking we have time to revisit Big Mom for a more overwhelming defeat. She is going to lose Yonkou status by the time this arc is over.
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Assuming Luffy beats BM now and she loses her Yonko status and absolutely everything, what are the stakes to be supposed for Wano and what exactly would make Kaido a believable threat any more?
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@Count:
Now now, let's not rush on ahead with discarding it yet. Especially when we still haven't gotten a flashback as to what happened when Lola left Totland. And it's not as if Pudding HAS to be an irredeemable villain to get away with manipulating the memories of a mother who mocks her appearance.
Still, I think the theory about kid Pudding being supposed to marry Loki and using her power to make it like it was supposed to be Lola is almost dead. it seems that the third-eyed tribe is view as being repulsive/scary in the One Piece's world . BM making Pudding marry Sanji was ok since she always planned to betray the Vinsmoke but if she wanted to improve her relationship with the giant tribe better it would be too much of a risky move even by trying to hide the eye with her bang. We also know that Sanji is first one to find the third eye beautiful. There is already enough narrative gymnastic in this arc.
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Is good too know that Sanji has another opportunity for his family to realize that he can do everything they can without the need of armor, which it still bugs me on how his papa didn't make any comment about it when they fought.
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??? That's exactly how the fight went! LOL. Cracker just kept throwing biscuits at Luffy and hiding behind them, hoping Luffy would fight them endlessly and die once he ran out of stamina. Which is why Luffy decided to start eating the biscuits untill Cracker ran out of stamina.
Also Cracker's ability counters Luffy perfectly, since Luffy's a brawler. Katakuri, however, seems to fall in Sanji's cathegory. (Both are CoO specialists)
cracker actually cut g4's arm the moment luffy got near him…and luffy wasn't even able to KO him with his own strenght,he used cracker's thrust and his armor's hardness to KO him,he never got a punch in.
if anything the battle shown like luffy is not even at the level of fighting mano-a-mano with a yonkou commander -
The people writing the longest posts get the most things wrong. Quit underestimating Luffy, quit underestimating Sanji, and quit thinking we have time to revisit Big Mom for a more overwhelming defeat. She is going to lose Yonkou status by the time this arc is over.
Assuming Luffy beats BM now and she loses her Yonko status and absolutely everything, what are the stakes to be supposed for Wano and what exactly would make Kaido a believable threat any more?
I don't think Emperor status is something you can just lose in the same way the Warlords can be disavowed by the government.
She could lose, and even lose big, and remain an Emperor by virtue of being the biggest bad for miles.
My feeling has been that Big Mom will take just such a hit to her prestige thanks to Luffy and Bege, but she won't die and it won't do much more than set her back in a big way.
My feeling is she'll either still be kicking by arcs end or, if she is killed, it won't be from Luffy directly. Everything to me is just too committed to Kaido being the Emperor Luffy brings down.
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I do not think Cracker could do much against multiple King Kong Guns.
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Is it me or Big Mom doesn't live up to her status ? Like, in the whole arc, I didn't sense any danger or threat from her ? Is it her behavior or her chara design ? I don't know ! Katakuri seems more dangerous than her btw.
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I used to think like some of the people here believing that Luffy and the smaller half of the SHs would beat Big Mom, but then I asked myself, how would this help the story? Turns out, it doesn't at all. For one, it would tarnish the reputation and threat level of the Yonkou in general. It would also make Kaido, who's gotten credible hype and build-up since pre-timeskip and needs all this preparation for, look less alarming if Luffy's was above Yonkou level. And two, it would destroy the constant theme of him as the underdog of the entire series. There's a reason why Bege's plan was an assassination the first place, he doesn't look like a fighter, more like a planner. I can't see him scuffling it out with fisticuffs against a monster like BM.
At most, two of the Yonkou are going down by Luffy, Kaido and Teach. Shanks is dead and BM's forces is gonna be heavily crippled by the end of this arc.
The face of a Straw Hat.
