@Silence:
It's quite the opposite.
The callback you're referring to here is in fact exactly the kind of example that Robby is talking about because there's no fucking way in this WORLD Toriyama remembers these creatures whatsoever.
One thing I like about the SUPER manga is that it often does callbacks like these–it takes old characters and settings and gives them some new way to be a part of the world.
It suggests a kind of internal logic to Dragon Ball as a setting... that is almost antithetical to the spirit of Dragon Ball. I would've appreciated SUPER as a child!
But the repeated jarring moments that explain why This Time they can't do The Thing they did last time to deal with this particular threat, or the REALLY old techniques or characters making a new reappearance, they aren't Toriyama in style at all. Toriyama is not a detail oriented mangaka.
And I popped over to one of the Dragon Ball forums you mentioned to prove this point.
These are quotes from interviews he's given over the years. And this is just a small sampling of things Toriyama forgot over the decades.
Read his own words!
(He forgot who Taopaipai was, who Lunch was, who Goten was, that Super Saiyan 2 exists, that he created Broly, etc.)
That he forgot them isn't necessarily a bad thing: it's just aren't important to Toriyama at all. There's so many weird quirks and bits of humor that SUPER doesn't have, but strange deep cuts to characters from thirty years ago? Back and forth banter about spirit fission? Oh it has that!
It's one of but many clues that suggest Toriyama isn't steering the ship, but a superfan of his work is.
And it shows!
These are more assumptions based on past behavior; the quotes I reference were literally published for the first time a month ago on October 14th.
Yes, Toriyama forgot characters/abilities in the past… but this is because he created Dragon Ball before the age of the internet. Fans can help with those details now. Even Oda routinely forgets One Piece attacks and is thankful for the existence of fan wiki pages so that he can remember these details from years ago.
I think that these assumptions are well intentioned and inferences made from past behavior... but people change, as does the world and technology.
Since the people directly creating the series are directly talking about how chapters are made, I’m more inclined to believe them over internet fans — who are not present at all for any of it.
@Robby:
Well I was going to say pretty much what Silence just said, but he beat me to it.
Toriryama just isn't the sort of guy that would go "Okay, lets go back to that location I mentioned 30 years ago in one panel and explore the culture of Yardarat".
He's the guy that goes "Okay, Goku trained in the afterlife and now there's fusion. But you have to do a stupid dance for it. And it possibly makes you look like a fat guy or an old man"
Robby, do you know Toriyama personally? Or are these assumptions you're making based on what happened in the past? I think it's important to pay attention to how you're coming to these conclusions. You speak as if you're in Toriyama's brain or are a clairvoyant when we know these aren't true — people can change their behaviors and habits. Writers change their styles all the time.
@Robby:
Super has an internal consistency and sense of history that are good for fans, but aren't in any way how Toriyama works or thinks or plots. It doesn't bring anything new or radically reashape old things, it just regurgitates and repeats old stuff, beat for beat. We've all been mocking how this entire Moro finale is basically a scene for scene remake of the Cell fight.
Ad that's just one aspect of it. It all wrings wrong. It's all stuff a hardcore fan would suggest and then Toriyama would shrug and go "sure, why not to".
Most Dragon Ball fights end the same way. That's… fairly consistent. They just have a special finisher at the end (e.g. punch-through-the-villain, Kamehameha, Genki Dama, Super Saiyan, father-son Kamehameha, Genki Dama with Super Saiyan, etc.)
@Robby:
Here, look at this book right here.
It says that it s astory J.K. Rowling worked on! Her name is the largest one there! So she MUST have been super involved with it! Even though the world doesn't mesh with the written one and the characters are all out of character and it completely breaks her own time travel rules by allowing multi decade time travel,, clearly she worked heavily on it and was super involved! It says it was a story by her! Totally not something she just rubber stamped and collected a check on.
Robby, this is completely unrelated property and it does not say what you are claiming.
It clearly says "Based on an original story by JK Rowling, John Tiffany, and Jack Thorne. A play by Jack Thorne."
Jack Thorne is the writer, but J.K. Rowling had involvement with developing the story. Here is a detailed article about that process. We already know that she's created inconsistencies in her world before, so logical errors are to be expected. To err is human.
What is different with Dragon Ball Super's manga is that you have the creators literally telling you how they made it and the level of involvement that Toriyama has.
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