Mortal level =/= power level
Yes, it's the level of power from the mortals from a certain universe, so yes it's power level.
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Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly
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Pokemon X/Y ingame name: Pedro
3DS FC : 1547 5213 7769 - NNID : SunGodKizaru Switch: SW-7487-5553-2501
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Goku basically not really being able to take the blame for Zeno destroying universes probably means we'll never get a moment where Goku needs to address his constant need to fight. I mean he hired a assassin on himself because he wanted a challenge. But nothing really came of that.
I can hope. But yeah, pretty much - this just made the writing staff's work easier. Wouldn't surprise me if the universes are just gone 'cause they're not the main cast and who the hell cares? Bring them back with the Dragon Balls or just leave 'em.
Still, it would be great if that were addressed somehow, but this episode really made me not hold my breath on that.
Unrelated to that, universe 1, 5, 8 and 12 being out means possibilities for new arcs.
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Mortal Level is bullshit.
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Yes, it's the level of power from the mortals from a certain universe, so yes it's power level.
No it isn't.
Or Beerus and Kai's reaction would make no sense. There is more about a certain level of "mortality" than strenght level
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Goku actually giving a possibility of SAVING the universe is quite entertaining. Loved the fighting as well, so all in all I'm happy.
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Beerus is right, Universe 7's weakness does fall squarely on the Supreme Kai's shoulders. As a God of Creation, it's his job to create planets and cultivate the universes power level to a respectable standard. Beerus being asleep for decades at a time should actually make his job that much easier, so I don't know where he gets off blaming Beerus for not destroying the piss weak planets and lifeforms he's created.
Also, dunno if you guys remember, but after the BoG film Akira Toriyama rated Goku's strength a 6, Beerus a 10 and Whis 15. I wonder if the Zen-Oh's and Daishinkan are using the same power level system Toriyama used for the movie?
That's just a Saiyan Saiyan'ing. He's been this way since chapter 1.
But Beerus also has big fault in only killing planets that has crappy foods instead of killing evil people.
U9 Hakaishin is indecisive in killing things and his Universe is the weakest. -
Beerus is right, Universe 7's weakness does fall squarely on the Supreme Kai's shoulders. As a God of Creation, it's his job to create planets and cultivate the universes power level to a respectable standard. Beerus being asleep for decades at a time should actually make his job that much easier, so I don't know where he gets off blaming Beerus for not destroying the piss weak planets and lifeforms he's created.
I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that for a new planet to be created another needs to be destroyed it.
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No it isn't.
Or Beerus and Kai's reaction would make no sense. There is more about a certain level of "mortality" than strenght level
They were shocked did you not see the episode? Beerus was complaining about Kai not helping to develop planets, and Kai just tells him he doesn't do shit either, just sleeps(and blows up said planets).
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But Beerus also has big fault in only killing planets that has crappy foods instead of killing evil people.
U9 Hakaishin is indecisive in killing things and his Universe is the weakest.Yup I would say he is more at fault actually, he can help those planets and make them stronger, but nah "I'll blow this up for this random reason".
Pokemon X/Y ingame name: Pedro
3DS FC : 1547 5213 7769 - NNID : SunGodKizaru Switch: SW-7487-5553-2501
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This episode also possibly puts the spoilers in a different perspective.
! If Goku throws the fight, then the universes survive. So, that would completely destroy the stakes.That means he likely won't (relying on the "we have the Dragon Balls" excuse or sth, or really not thinking at all). That means Goku will 100% keep the blame for the universes' eventual possible destruction. It also means the story can still smack him in the face and that when it doesn't, it'll be absolutely infuriating. It would be a good setup for Goku having to grow or just bad character writing on Toei's part… and they've done such a great job with most of the other characters, too.
! But it also might be that the Omni king is like "jk" and that's that...
! ..or some other third option. -
Would the Dragon Balls even be able to counter actions undertaken by the Omni-King(s)? Seems like it would just be a thing that's forbidden even for the Super Dragon.
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I've been thinking that, too. Maybe they can't wish back the universes.
! Maybe Goku's going the "they won't fight at their fullest" logic. Bunch of variables here.
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They were shocked did you not see the episode? Beerus was complaining about Kai not helping to develop planets, and Kai just tells him he doesn't do shit either, just sleeps(and blows up said planets).
.Again and the only way to develop planets and rank them is BATTLE power.
Nope… if they would be that easy they would just use the term power level as they always do in DB.
But there is more to rank mortals than just power levels... Like intelligence, social culture and and and. I know it's hard to see outside of the shonen power manga logic
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Do you really want Goku meditating while farming about how he feels responsible about the dangers that he unknowinlgy brought the universes because he wanted to fight? That is not Toriyama and that is not Goku. He fucks up and then he keeps on moving forward, the universe bent over backward so that he doesn't pay for his mistakes (see forgiving Picolo, Vegeta, Frezzer and asking for Buu's reincarnation, Frezzer blowing up the earth) and when he does (Raditz, Cell) he just accepts that and keeps moving forward.
why Goku should grow up? If even when he's wrong and fails he comes out on top.
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Can't wait to see how Broly's mortal is maximum
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Personally speaking, I don't want Goku to become a different character, that can be really bad, too.
It's kind of universes on the line here, so just something done with that? -
Do you really want Goku meditating while farming about how he feels responsible about the dangers that he unknowinlgy brought the universes because he wanted to fight? That is not Toriyama and that is not Goku. He fucks up and then he keeps on moving forward, the universe bent over backward so that he doesn't pay for his mistakes (see forgiving Picolo, Vegeta, Frezzer and asking for Buu's reincarnation, Frezzer blowing up the earth) and when he does (Raditz, Cell) he just accepts that and keeps moving forward.
why Goku should grow up? If even when he's wrong and fails he comes out on top.
No not a scenario like that. But more of a thing where it's not just Chichi or Vegeta yelling at him and it's not taken as a joke of them nagging him. The only time I can recall a scene where Goku actually seemed to listen and try to correct his mistake was during the Cell fight. Having death on the line for the heroes and 3 sets of dragonballs pretty much means Goku has a saftey net. There really is no tension. Being somone that can move forward isn't a bad thing but when it's paired with someone that just grins and is all "Sweet even stronger people to fight!" It's kinda off putting when the stakes are so high.
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Again and the only way to develop planets and rank them is BATTLE power.
Nope… if they would be that easy they would just use the term power level as they always do in DB.
But there is more to rank mortals than just power levels... Like intelligence, social culture and and and. I know it's hard to see outside of the shonen power manga logic
It's clearly power level. It's there to hype viewers on the fact that Goku and co. are underdogs in this tournament.
And "I know it's hard to see outside of the shonen power manga logic"? Dragon Ball is the shonen battle manga.
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It's clearly power level. It's there to hype viewers on the fact that Goku and co. are underdogs in this tournament.
And "I know it's hard to see outside of the shonen power manga logic"? Dragon Ball is the shonen battle manga.
Again why not using the term they used for decades?
Further more if true it still says shit. Goku and Vegeta are most likely above the average by far
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It makes sense for U7 to be low. Outside of the Z Fighters, there aren't all too many strong fighters anymore. Freeza is dead. The Saiyans were wiped out. Buu also destroyed a bunch of worlds. U6 still has their Saiyans, so their universal power average would be higher.
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I think the Average in U6 being higher than U7 is probably due to Cabba telling his fellow saiyan comrades how to use SSJ, which puts him above most of the Z fighters.
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Again why not using the term they used for decades?
Further more if true it still says shit. Goku and Vegeta are most likely above the average by far
Exactly, Goku and Vegeta are strong, but the rest of the universe is weak, the number is there to make them look like underdogs, shock value, nothing else.
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And no one answers the question. Nice
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I think the power thing was meant for the twin universe, like 1 and 12 being above level 7, 6 should be the same or around the same as 7, but if they are taking general population to access the power level of the universe, just because most of the universe 7 team was stronger, it doesn't mean the general population is, they actually have saiyans for example, which even if they are more civilized should be stronger than the general untrained human being.
Yeah that sounds about right. 8 + 5 = 13 and 1+ 12 = 13, so it fits that they're all high tier together.
However, where does universe 4 (twin of 9) stand then? Equal to 6? Above 6? lol
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The problem with Gokus attitude is the same problem 7 deadly sins that time Melodias gambled the lives of thousands of innocents in order to further a strategy against the Demons. Namely: The consequences are not presented as a laughing matter to the viewers. To every other character in the series, the consequences are reacted to as being extremely dire and off putting. And when you ask the viewers to care about the consequences, seeing Goku not care the slightest that trillions are gonna perish makes him seem like a callous shitbag. And in that case, the series at least needs to view him as such as well, otherwise it becomes extremely off-putting.
Balancing your placement of empathy and karma in a series is extremely important, and just because DB has a history of flubbing this -Vegeta gruesomely murders namekian children and elders. it is depicted as gruesome, the namekians consider it gruesome, Vegeta is a dick about it and yet the Namekians are not resurrected and Vegeta suffers no consequences- doesn't mean its' not a problem.
Giving the previous arcs Rick & Morty ending, i wouldn't put it past Toei to go unintentionally dark route.
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Part of me thinks Toei/Toriyama/etc changed the context of the tournament a little in this episode a bit in order to diminish Goku's fault? What did Japanese viewers think of the prospect of him being indirectly responsible for trillions of lives being lost?
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"Who wrote this junk?".
They took a shot at the old Dub.
"IF YOU’RE A MAN YOU DON’T CRY ABOUT IT. YOU TAKE LIFE THE UPS AND DOWNS. IF YOU’RE A REAL MAN YA NEVER GO DOWN YA JUST STAY UP"
- RIC FLAIR
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Didn't I heard this voice somewhere else? -
Sure we got that explanation from the priest, but still, whoever is writing this damn anime is making Goku really unlikable, he was naive and dumb, but never unlikable(to me at least).
People still have an axe to grind with him for being a horrible father….so yeah it varies.
@Daz:
Vegeta is a dick about it and yet the Namekians are not resurrected and Vegeta suffers no consequences-
You mean aside from him having the shit beaten out of him three separate times, his quest for the dragonballs ultimately ending in failure and him unmercifully getting killed off by a guy who was an even worse asshole to the Namekians than he was?
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I finally watched episode 71+72. So Gohan calls Goku Son? Seriously?!
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Dude, seriously. This Mortal Level is utterly bullshit and unnecessary. It a poor hype tool, worse than that anime green guy from another galaxy in Universe 7 that could keep it up with Freeza and Cell or something.
Seriously, I am feeling outraged of how dumb this is. Why the hell did Priest guy just gave that piece of exposition out of nowhere? I know it is supossed to give a reason to Zen-Oh to destroy the weaker universes, but couldn't we just moved on without knowing that, thank you? Couldn't that not to be a thing at all? We have the All-Star Team of the entire series fighting other 11 universes, isn't that good enough for the viewers?
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We have the All-Star Team of the entire series fighting other 11 universes, isn't that good enough for the viewers?
Given the recurring problem with Tournament arcs i.e. beloved character getting worfed or not being used to their full potential? No.
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"Who wrote this junk?".
They took a shot at the old Dub.
That's the version they played on Toonami last night.
This is the real version:
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^Yeah the TV version is actually a 1:1 recycle of the old dub, which makes it stand all the more, which is funny.
Having Taka use his Nappa voice on the fake Satan, that makes the other version stand out on top. Could've sworn there was a Toonami promo specifically showing off the TFS voices like that, though.
Then again the switch was probably Toei clamping down. -
Vegeta did horrible things, but like Piccolo, he grew to be a better person.
Is all the bad they did ever entirely made up? Probably not. But their gradual character arcs have a point. Maybe it's a little bit of a Sasuke and Naruto villain thing in that they're just kind of forgiven, but at least we see them gradually grow.
Trunks, Krillin, Gohan all also have character arcs. Especially now that Super had it's focus episodes. At least when DB did it's bullshit plot extending it is in-character. Goku spared Piccolo, Vegeta, extended the fight with Freeza and Cell - it's been gradually getting worse with him and now it's on a universal level. It's at least in-character, it's now something in the foreground and actually has quite a sinister tone in several scenes, so addressing it at least a little more would make me happy.
Even "don't be a reckless dumbass and chill sometimes" which was the point of the Pan episode - would be enough. We know Goku isn't intentionally wishing everyone to die.
Speakin' of character development, I'm most curious about what they could do with Tenshinhan, 17 and 18 the most. Roshi's just gotta have a cool Shounen Old Man moment. It would be majorly dissapointing for the minor characters to just get nothing especially now because all this build-up for The Big Ten.
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I sometimes feel like Super Goku is easier to reconcile with the Abridged Goku than he is the actual Dragon Ball Z Goku.
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Speaking of, they quick-dubbed another scene.
http://cowcat44.tumblr.com/post/157643005160/tfs-fight-counseling -
So are those four universes above 7!!! out of the competition, so that they will be presented once Goku mass-murdered all the other universes first ?
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So I'm at episode 64 of the Super anime, and I have to get a few things off my chest. I really like the way they're going about doing this, and I like how similar to Z it is in tone. I also really like the new characters, Beerus and Whis being standouts. Wish they did more with Goten, but that's just me.
What truly irks me is the godawful pacing, the animation, the constant ridiculous powerups/incoherent owerlevels/bullshit techniques they pull out of nowhere, and my number one gripe is the sheer amount of plotholes. It got especially bad in the Goku black saga. Really totally full of plotholes, and it happens all the bloody time! I really want to like this anime, but goddamn it these issues are so blatant at times that I can't help but feel like screaming at the TV 'NONONONO DON'T DO THAT, DO THIS, OBVIOUSLY BETTER!', or even 'WHAT, THAT MAKES NO SENSE!!'
I feel like I'm forced to compare it to GT.
Now, I know the general consensus is that GT is shit, but personally, I have a soft spot for it.
It's outrageous at times, but the powerups made a little more sense compared to Super. The powerlevels stayed more consistent than in Super. They use the fusion dance, which is one of my favourite things of DB. The side characters are a little bland (I do like Pan, the Robot, Trunks and Chibi Goku though), but at least there aren't any stupid plotholes to ruin my enjoyment of the show (except the number of Dragonball wishes that made the evil Dragons, that was a bit nonsensical).
I also like the sagas in GT (except the android one) a little more than the ones in Super (for now). Lets just say I prefer 'saving the earth' to 'tournament/bring back old villain or plotpoint.
Also, GT has far far better pacing and really showcases the DB universe outside Earth, which is something I really like about it.
I think GT's art and character design is vastly superior to Super. Miles above it.
And I don't care what anyone says, SSJ4 is miles better, design-wise, that SSblue.
And fault GT all you like, it's a fun ride and chibi Goku made the show sooo enjoyable. Also, the ending is perfection.
Arguably GT is way off, thematically speaking, compared to Z. But i don't really mind that that. Super feels like a rehashed DBZ, while GT was thematically very different. It felt like it's own show, and rightfully so, given that it takes place 15(?) years after Z. They didn't completely do away with every aspect of Z, but I feel like hit a thematic spot between Z and OG Dragonball.
Sometimes, like the first arc, it's an adventure like DB was (truly lacking in Super or Z), while sometimes it's flashy explosions and cool battles. Yeah it's got some off moments, some silly moments (Vegeta's mustache), but I think it's a better, more original series than Super overall.
So yeah, what I'm trying to say is that GT is better than Super. Fight me.
EDIT: another gripe about super, they've completely forgotten that Saiyans grow stronger when they're beaten. it irks me to no end! AND STOP USING GUNS AGAINST DB CHARACTERS MAI, IT NEVER WORKS!!!!!!!!!
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Potholes are nothing in the face of terrible premises, character assassination, obvious nostalgia pandering and not very original villains (except the dragons, who while cool in paper, were a disgrace as final for and just meh design wise)
You went "it has potholes", that is not enough, point at them, drag them on to the light, and we'll talk about them.
But the same nostalgia glasses that tint beautiful the good old series, make the awful old series more palatable .
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Potholes are nothing in the face of terrible premises, character assassination, obvious nostalgia pandering and not very original villains (except the dragons, who while cool in paper, were a disgrace as final for and just meh design wise)
You went "it has potholes", that is not enough, point at them, drag them on to the light, and we'll talk about them.
But the same nostalgia glasses that tint beautiful the good old series, make the awful old series more palatable .There are too many! Every goddamn episode I find myself flabbergasted at all the ways they could resolve the issue differently! And if it isn't a real 'plothole', it's a convenience that's stretched far beyond what's realistic.
Heinous example is Goku's first fight with Goku Black, in the present. Goku should have demolished him, but didn't, because 'that's his character'. I mean come on! That's stupid! But the writers really wanted to have a cool fight without the ark being over there and then, so they did it anyway.
Or the innumerable times that SSBlue is seemingly weaker than Trunks' SSJ2? The power scaling is all wrong! Why haven't the two Zabusa's potara fused yet (EDIT:nvm, they just did)? Why is Goku+Vegita fusing never floated as a way of dealing of the problem?? How did Trunks achieve the near god form?How did Vegeta get SSBlue without the 5 saiyans giving their power! Plot convenience! And how exactly did Goku black go from SJJ level to SJPink in so little time? Is that ever explained? Or the backstory of Goku Black stealing Goku's body, then somehow going to Trunks' future instead of his own, so he meets another Zabusa. It's just so ridiculous! Why didn't that Zabusa turn evil sooner then? How did that Zabusa find out about Goku and get curious is he never fought him in the first place, and why Goku specifically? Did Goku black's destrying of all the Kaioshin really go unnoticed by the King of All and the God's of Destruction for long enough that he could kill every single one of them? Goku NEVER kissed Chichi, yet they have kids??? Gohan and Piccolo got nerfed into nothingness during the Frieza saga, and Android 18 didn't even take part! Why? She should be able to wipe the floor of any henchman of Frieza's. If Goku and Beerus were almost destroying the universe in their first battle, why is that never an issue in any subsequent fight? Oh, it's inconvenient? SO MANY PLOTHOLES!
As for GT 'assassinating' characters, it takes place 10 or 15 years late (one of the two). Obviously characters will be different. Can you point to a direct example? Goten perhaps. But then again, he's going through puberty, writers had free reign. Vegeta maybe? 10 years of being a family man are going to change you somewhat. Goku? He's chibified for most of the series, he isn't really that different otherwise. A little smarter than in Z perhaps, but not too different.
And seriously, I found GT's antics to be very entertaining. I seriously enjoy the star wars feel of the first 20 episodes. Baby is good at what he does, and it's cool because he takes over Vegeta and then creates the situation where SSJ4 Goku is born.
The Super Android/Hell connecting to earth thing is retarded, but that's my only real 'villain' gripe. Doesn't even last that long.
The Dragons (except 4 star (gold) and one star) are bland, I'll give you that, but the concept is cool and SSJ4 Gogeta is more than worth the payoff.
Overall, a better, more coherent story than Super. And don't try telling me that the 'villains' in the Uni 7&6 tournament arc are cool, because they're all bland or rehashes of previous characters (except Hit, but Hit didn't really have much of a personality).
EDIT: once I'm done with Super, I plan on watch GT again just to compare them with a fresh mind. But as it stands, little you say can change my opinion of both series. I enjoy them both, despite their weaknesses. But GT edges out Super overall.
EDIT2: I really hope there's an explanation for the highlighter pink Goku black clones coming out of the pink gash in the universe which just appeared for… NO REASON! Wtf.
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Things GT has: Vegeta fishing for compliments
Things Super has: Vegeta fretting over the birth of his daughter
It's a dead tie for me
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
- Para Para Brothers
- Bra getting Vegeta to shave his moostache
- Gogeta clowning Omega Shenron
- the ending montage
That's it. That's everything of value from GT.
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Super also has Vegeta getting his shit pushed in by a robotman until he uses the power of being a bully to win
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
@Cyan:
- Para Para Brothers
- Bra getting Vegeta to shave his moostache
- Gogeta clowning Omega Shenron
- the ending montage
That's it. That's everything of value from GT.
Pan and the Robot they find on totally not Tatooin are pivotal parts of what makes GT good. And Trunks, lots of Trunks. And Chibi Goku. And SSJ4. Come on, there's a lot to love. Nappa getting Pwnd by Vegeta is also a highlight moment.
All the planet travelling to find the dragonballs is particularly enjoyable to me. I can understand those who don't appreciate it, but I found it fun.
Also, Universal Spirit Bomb is really cool. I love that scene.
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Super also has Vegeta getting his shit pushed in by a robotman until he uses the power of being a bully to win
Also Vegeta, Scholar of Shonen Manga Fighting Styles.
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I can't take "a character acted in character" as a plothole.
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I can't take "a character acted in character" as a plothole.
First off, it's one thing to 'act in character', and another to use a Goku's 'quirk' of taking a while to fight full power as a key plot device in Goku Black getting stronger, while completely writing off Goku's mistake and never addressing it again. Literally NOBODY adresses it, except vegeta during the fight, for a short while. It's Goku's fault the whole thing happened, but nobody seems to care! It's like the writers intentionally avoided dealing with it to not cast Goku in a bad light.
And did you just ignore the whole list of other complaints? I wrote more than 10 different plotholes that would be gamebreaking in any other series. Part 5 Jojo level bad.
I just got to the point where they evil Kaioshin fuse, and MY GOD the powerscaling is off. Trunks is somehow getting stronger and stronger, fighting on par with SSJBlue goku and vegita combined, despite obviously never having reached that form. And even though they should be getting wiped out by Fused kaioshin Black Goku, they're still fighting as if he never fused in the first place, through 'willpower'. It's powerup over powerup with no reasoning in between each one. I can't accept it. The whole Goku Black arc has been this bullshit over and over again, it's really breaking the suspension of disbelief.
It's like the writers think 'lets do something cool', then realise a couple episodes later that they've written themselves into a corner, and retcon or change the powerlevel continuity for the sake of keeping an ark going.
The whole Evil Sealing Technique subplot was scrapped because nobody remembered to get the seal. That's an egregious convenience, don't you think? It worked, but NOOO we can't end it here, must insert bullshit reason why it didn't work.
Or hey! Lets have the MC's forget the Senzu beans in the bathroom because it's too easy if they have them, there isn't enough suspense!
