Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

[JulieYBM]

@BingBang:

But i though it was toriyama who wrote the story…Toyo is not writing no?

A general outline, I'm sure, but the comic itself is by Toyo-tarou. Even if he didn't write the dialogue the art and paneling itself is enough of a headache.

[Robby]

@BingBang:

But i though it was toriyama who wrote the story…Toyo is not writing no?

Toriyama is providing, at best, a loose outline. ANd for the anime a handful of character designs so they can sell the fact that he worked on character designs.

You look at Battle of the Gods and that had his fingerprints all over it in terms of how irreverant it could be and that it didn't take itself too seriously and had a sense of fun, including random ass stuff like having the Pilof gang de-aged for no reason and Trunks hitting on Mai and Vegeta's dance number, and how Beerus and Whis were silly villains instead of dead serious threats. He obviously truly worked on that one.

Then you look at the Frieza and Broly movies and he…. did a couple designs but they're clearly anime filler style stuff. The Super anime as a whole even more so. (Now, the Broly movie is weird because he clearly had a major hand in the lengthy prologue section and in insisting Broly have something of a personality, but the rest of the film really lacked his touch.)

With the manga he's not doing dialogue or layouts or anything, just a handful of sentences for the whole arc. And it shows.

[Kizuchan]

@Ubiq:

It's literally just Perfect Cell's abilities list.

Sort of, but mostly not really. Cell didn't have energy absorption and infinite stamina and his copycat abilities were limited.

Moro is one of the most interesting and unique villains just in concept because his absorption ability ensures there has to be technique and brain involved to defeat him.

Going at him with only punches and energy attacks won't work.

The worst thing to happen here writing-wise would actually be walking back on that rule.

[Ubiq]

@Kizuchan:

Sort of, but mostly not really. Cell didn't have energy absorption and infinite stamina and his copycat abilities were limited.

Cell used a different method than Androids 19 and 20 but energy absorption was his entire deal as Imperfect Cell and he presumably retained that ability in both of his later forms; he just didn't think he needed to do it anymore. Plus his entire Perfect Form was based on his absorption of two infinite energy Android models so he should have that ability as well.

Far as his copycat ability goes, Gero apparently stopped collecting data on Saiyans after Freeza showed up so he had to have learned Instant Transmission from having Goku use it on him. At least, the main series Cell didn't since he was created by Trunks going back in time and killing Freeza. The original Cell probably does have that technique since Goku used it to show up and kill Freeza.

[Kizuchan]

I'd phrase it in the way that Moro has somewhat derivative, but distinct variations of Cell's techniques.

Moro can absorb Ki without any kind of contact (while Cell has to use his tail to absorb) and 73's copycat abilities have specific limits instead of being biologically inherent to him (using one ability at a time, able to store 3 abilities and use them for 30 minutes).

But fusion via absorption is 100% something Cell (and actually Buu) has. Something tells me it's permanent with Moro, though.

If anything Vegeta's new technique is like android 19/20's absorption ability, which is an interesting parallel considering Vegeta defeated android 19.

[Green_vs_Red]

@Ubiq:

Cell used a different method than Androids 19 and 20 but energy absorption was his entire deal as Imperfect Cell and he presumably retained that ability in both of his later forms; he just didn't think he needed to do it anymore. Plus his entire Perfect Form was based on his absorption of two infinite energy Android models so he should have that ability as well.

Far as his copycat ability goes, Gero apparently stopped collecting data on Saiyans after Freeza showed up so he had to have learned Instant Transmission from having Goku use it on him. At least, the main series Cell didn't since he was created by Trunks going back in time and killing Freeza. The original Cell probably does have that technique since Goku used it to show up and kill Freeza.

I would think Cell does have the move otherwise Toriyama goofed up when he showed up back on earth after
blowing up everyone on King Kai’s planet.

[Ubiq]

@Kizuchan:

I'd phrase it in the way that Moro has somewhat derivative, but distinct variations of Cell's techniques.

Oh, yeah, it's definitely a different system but the basic checklist of abilities are the same.

@Green_vs_Red:

I would think Cell does have the move otherwise Toriyama goofed up when he showed up back on earth after
blowing up everyone on King Kai’s planet.

He'd already seen Goku use it multiple times before then though and never used it until being teleported himself. Cell learning the technique by experiencing it first hand makes a lot more sense rather than having it and just not using it especially after he becomes aware of the technique.

[Kizuchan]

I just like that they need some technique and strategy to defeat Moro, not just punch him really hard.

He's an amalgamation of a bunch of DB villains. Bits of King Piccolo, Buu and Cell.

[Robby]

@Kizuchan:

I just like that they need some technique and strategy to defeat Moro, not just punch him really hard.

He's an amalgamation of a bunch of DB villains. Bits of King Piccolo, Buu and Cell.

They tried technique and strategy. Its almost certainly going to come down to punching him really hard.

[Kizuchan]

Some of the setup and the story being a little less straight-forward than usual tells me there is gonna be at least some diversion from the usual.

The story wouldn't mention Vegeta's ability to defuse fusion characters if it didn't come to play otherwise, for example.

[Green_vs_Red]

@Kizuchan:

I just like that they need some technique and strategy to defeat Moro, not just punch him really hard.

He's an amalgamation of a bunch of DB villains. Bits of King Piccolo, Buu and Cell.

Those guys weren’t really defeated with technique or strategy though just pure luck.

@Ubiq:

He'd already seen Goku use it multiple times before then though and never used it until being teleported himself. Cell learning the technique by experiencing it first hand makes a lot more sense rather than having it and just not using it especially after he becomes aware of the technique.

Well that and the fact he has Goku’s DNA and Goku has shown a proficiency in learning techniques after seeing
them…..eventhough the only ever did this twice.

[Kizuchan]

@Green_vs_Red:

Those guys weren’t really defeated with technique or strategy though just pure luck.

Yeah those 3 weren't. I'm talking specifically about Moro here. I think his defeat will involve at least some strategy to it because his energy absorption is still there.

[Kizuchan]

I've been reading the Dragon Ball manga some more.

I really, really like how easy it's to read. Since I recently caught up with One Piece it's a neat comparison.

OP uses backgrounds much more commonly and has recently been really cramped in terms of panelling to me. DB on the other hand has a lot of big panels that flow and convey information really well.

I somehow remembered that Goku had his forgetfulness introduced in the beginning of the Cell arc, but that's not the case.

Goku not taking the medicine stuff was more about him being careless (because he didn't seem to have symptoms) than forgetful. But I think it still works with the forgetfulness in the Black arc.

Him being careless and a little too casual about serious things as far back as the Cell arc fits with Whis' criticism well.

I remember some people that recommended the manga to me saying that the Cell arc is much more boring in the manga, but it's just a complete breeze to me. It's just really easy to digest.

[JulieYBM]

Toriyama knows how to make chapters easy on the eyes. You can follow the action not only within a panel but to the next panel. It's genius. Meanwhile, there are some comic artists who I really can't follow at all.

[Kizuchan]

At the same time, I wish DB would spend some more time letting the characters/story breathe a little bit. Some of those filler episodes in the anime really were welcome to me.

I really like how quick the Namek fight felt in the manga, but I feel some of the slice-of-life episodes/scenes in the Cell arc really enhanced the story. Vegeta just basically gets SSJ handed to him. Filler with Goku and Gohan enhances the end of the arc etc.

[Robby]

The thing with SS is the manga usually played it as a surprise, while the anime always, ALWAYS drew it out as a long dramatic moment. Goku going super Saiyan had some foreshadowing from Vegeta, sure, but in the manga he's pissed off at Krillin's death, then BAM, splash page and he suddenly has white hair and white eyes.

Meanwhile in the anime its nearly a three minute long scene where his hair flashes off and on, it starts rising slowly, there's lightning bolts, and lots of reaction shots from everyone watching… and its certainly more intense and dramatic, possibly better? But it also loses something. That's a hard one for any western audience to judge since most of us kind of already knew about SUper Saiyan (and even super 2, 3, and possibly fusion and super 4) before the stateside telling actually got anywhere near it so it wasn't ever really a surprise moment, any more than finding out Goku was an alien.

Something that to Japanese readers, was a surprise 5 years and 154 episodes in, but for the western audience was basically just part of the origin story in the very first episode.

Similarly, Vegeta going SUper for the first time is a sudden shock moment surprise, and Goku going Super 3 is near instant too. Only super 2 is really dragged out.

In all those cases the anime took the instant snap of a scene and made a meal out of it... and I don't know if that's ultimately better or worse... its certainly worse for other powers ups like when Frieza spends an entire episode transforming to his fourth form, or Cell going Perfect.

[andre]

@Robby:

The thing with SS is the manga usually played it as a surprise, while the anime always, ALWAYS drew it out as a long dramatic moment. Goku going super Saiyan had some foreshadowing from Vegeta, sure, but in the manga he's pissed off at Krillin's death, then BAM, splash page and he suddenly has white hair and white eyes.

Meanwhile in the anime its nearly a three minute long scene where his hair flashes off and on, it starts rising slowly, there's lightning bolts, and lots of reaction shots from everyone watching… and its certainly more intense and dramatic, possibly better? But it also loses something. That's a hard one for any western audience to judge since most of us kind of already knew about SUper Saiyan (and even super 2, 3, and possibly fusion and super 4) before the stateside telling actually got anywhere near it so it wasn't ever really a surprise moment, any more than finding out Goku was an alien.

Something that to Japanese readers, was a surprise 5 years and 154 episodes in, but for the western audience was basically just part of the origin story in the very first episode.

Similarly, Vegeta going SUper for the first time is a sudden shock moment surprise, and Goku going Super 3 is near instant too. Only super 2 is really dragged out.

In all those cases the anime took the instant snap of a scene and made a meal out of it... and I don't know if that's ultimately better or worse... its certainly worse for other powers ups like when Frieza spends an entire episode transforming to his fourth form, or Cell going Perfect.

As someone who grew up in the middle 90s and watched Dragon Ball blind, basically as my fourth anime (after Sailor Moon, Pokemon, and Digimon. We didn't realize there was a distinction between japanese and american animation until later, though), the moment was extremely hyped and unexpected. I watched it with my brother at my grandparents house on Toonami and we went crazy afterwards. It's a very clear memory in my head. I think there's probably a pretty huge portion of people who had a similar experience, considering how popular and well-known Dragonball Z is compared to just about any other anime in the U.S. that isn't Pokemon. Most people weren't on forums talking about it, they were just watching on Toonami.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Kizuchan:

I've been reading the Dragon Ball manga some more.

I really, really like how easy it's to read. Since I recently caught up with One Piece it's a neat comparison.

OP uses backgrounds much more commonly and has recently been really cramped in terms of panelling to me. DB on the other hand has a lot of big panels that flow and convey information really well.

I agree to both of these. I still think Oda is better at clearly drawing action than anyone in Jump today, but it's definitely more cluttered than it used to be. Compared to just about every other Jump magazine, though, and he's the master.

[KageKageKing]

Oh yeah, I remember the opening with Goku turning Super Saiyan at the very end of it and Vegeta being alongside the protagonists.

[Kaiolino]

Super Saiyan had been hyped in the manga too. The omniscient narrator mentioned it when Goku was training in the ship. Then Vegeta mentioned it. Then Ginyu mentioned it. Then Vegeta started mentioning it A LOT. It was shown as something that upset Freeza whenever it was mentioned. Toriyama really sold himself short when he rushed through it.

[Ubiq]

I'm pretty sure I knew what Super Saiyan looked like because of video game magazines well before the show even aired in the United States.

[Green_vs_Red]

Rock The Dragon (which incorporated some elements from Cha La Head Cha La) of course had it…....along with some other stuff that hadn't yet been featured in the dub like Trunks killing Freeza and Vegeta turning SSJ.

[Shiebs]

Was I the only one who thought the Ginyu force was supposed to be a bizzaro version of the humans, for example Guldo always seemed like a parallel of Chiaotzu

and I always thought Jeice seemed kind like Yamcha and Burter like Tien

but I guess maybe those last two are stretches

and then who would Krillin be….. Ginyu?

and who the hell would that make Recoome a parallel of?

am I just seeing things or do you guys agree

[Kizuchan]

Super Saiyan was telegraphed to distraction to me. The moment it's mentioned, I'm like, yeah, Goku's gonna get it. Yes, the opening had Goku going Super Saiyan, but the German version did the thing where it actually used the Android/Cell arc version of Chala-Head-Chala first. So a bunch of new characters were going SSJ. Which was a neat misdirect and built mystery. Every time the opening would come on, I'd try to pick it apart with my brother and sister.

But the story's writing style up to that point told me everything I needed to know.

I got into the DB through German TV, which started with og DB, so Goku saving the day was the most obvious thing ever. Honestly, Krillin dying had already happened, too, so the only satisfaction I got out of that reveal was Goku giving Freeza his comeuppance.

And that's not actually necessarily a negative. It was incredibly satisfying because Freeza was incredibly hateable.

[Robby]

@andre:

Most people weren't on forums talking about it, they were just watching on Toonami.

Who said anything about forums? The american anime opening itself, Rock the Dragon, used Clips of Goku and Vegeta going super and included Trunks. For no reason. Even though the japanee anime opening… did not do that. I guess if Toonami didn't play the opening you might not be aware but they really blatantly gave the game away there. (Why they used the opening lineup from the Cell saga rather than the actual Saiyan saga, I will never understand.) Maybe they were trying to future proof that opening so they wouldn't need to change it 100 episodes in?

Even aside from that, If you read a video game magazine in the 90's, long before using the internet for anything was a thing, there'd be ads from companies that put out anime product along with their games, and they'd be plastered with Dragonball and Sailor Moon posters which were of course, huge in Japan at the time but wouldn't hit stateside for a while yet. And soemtiems the envelope fanart they published would also have Dragonball stuff. ANd that one GT game existed on the PS1 in 97 that spoiled everything.. the american airing of the anime didn't even finish Namek until late 1999.

I knew the characters went blonde practically before I even knew they had a normal state. (I also assumed at the time it was a permanent transformation because... you never saw art of the normal forms.) I also knew there were a shitload of saiyans by the end, not knowing that Goten, Gogetta and Vegetto were fusions, and just random words in japanese.

Also knew about random stuff from later sailor moon seasons as well, though there's not much you can glean from posters beyond "there are more characters later."

[Kizuchan]

Oh hey, I liked a bunch of the action in DBS 62. Some good teamwork.

Also I like it when minor characters that seemingly don't matter end up being really important (if Krillin and Dende won't end up making it, everyone would be screwed).

How good this chapter ultimately is in the bigger picture depends on how things play out from here. The story could go the most standard route, but it can also have some good swerves here.

[Green_vs_Red]

@Robby:

Even aside from that, If you read a video game magazine in the 90's, long before using the internet for anything was a thing, there'd be ads from companies that put out anime product along with their games, and they'd be plastered with Dragonball and Sailor Moon posters which were of course, huge in Japan at the time but wouldn't hit stateside for a while yet. And soemtiems the envelope fanart they published would also have Dragonball stuff. ANd that one GT game existed on the PS1 in 97 that spoiled everything.. the american airing of the anime didn't even finish Namek until late 1999.

I know that’s how I found out about Ultimate Battle 22 (which wouldn’t be localized until after the PS2 had been out for at least 4 years) and Idanairu DB Densetsu which is also how I found out about the importing business, there’s also a toy commercial which featured a scene that I guess was supposed to be taken from the Buu Saga which was far and away from airing in the states, along with one of my classmates who’re fans having a DBZ centric magazine which contained a number of pictures from the movies and TV show (he also owned a SSJ3 Goku action figure), and even playing cards which used promotional material.

I even watched a VHS bootleg that featured Buu Saga episodes.

So much spoilerific content.

[Raffy]

I still hope DBS is setting up Buu to fight Moro … sure healing Goku and Vegeta and them fusing or whatever would be nice and all but since Buu didn't get his change in the ToP, I'm hoping he's the one who'll have a chance to finish off Moro

[Kizuchan]

This chapter specifically says fusion won't be possible/wise.

[BingBang]

I really liked this episode. The drama, the pace… I imagine Moro absorbing Meerus power and attacking the other angels/gods of destruction. I like this idea of starting a war between Angels and Demons.

[Retro]

Gotta admit, this does feel like a legit struggle everyone's going through and I like that everyone's fighting the main baddie altogether for once, even if they have to go down to do it. Kinda agree with Masako though, please stop jobbing Gohan and let the poor guy be useful. Just cause he's not as fight happy as Goku doesn't mean you can't make his fighting style interesting with his smarts.

But yeah darkest hour and all and literaly divine intervention having to be used to save the heroes. Very curious where this is gonna lead.

[Coookie]

Can someone please edit the newest chapter and replace the last page with Goku finally getting some character development and simply offing Moro?

[Kizuchan]

I really liked the art and storyboarding of this chapter. The Super manga is generally pretty average when it comes to that stuff.

I like that the story committed to the principles of UI instead of defaulting to rage.

I don't think there has ever been extended focus on Goku sparing villains, so I'm okay with the story possibly going there. He never had an arc about that, the closest being back in RoF.

And this could still lean into that or have Goku fail for a different reason, like UI running out or Moro's magic.

[Robby]

So twitter informs me apparently part of the next chapter has released a teaser version of itself, with pencils and not finished inks for… whatever reason. Hype I guess?

https://dragonball.news/news/n201013065.html

And uhm…

sort of but not really spoilery

! I hope Toyotaro is trolling and those pages are fake.
! I don't think they are.
! I think this is legit the turn the story was going to take because of course it was.
! And ugggh.

Actual spoiler

!

! Dammit Goku.

[JulieYBM]

! This arc is already completely unwieldy but god, I hope Gokuu kills Moro for good in this chapter.

[Ubiq]

Again, Super Goku makes a lot more sense as a continuation of TFS Goku than DBZ Goku.

[Coookie]

Screw Goku. I wish the other characters would hold him accountable for his selfishness for once.

[gyuukarubi]

Very surprised that no one mentioned the ch… that was the best finisher we’ve seen in a long time. Giant Goku with the divine energy!

Also appreciated the appearance of Oob and it was nice how Dende was the only person who knew what happened. Also, I wonder if Vegeta absorbed some of Merus’ divine energy via fission?

A+. This is a legendary chapter... an instant classic.

[Sâuza]

Guy with other people's powers becomes huge and threatens to explode but Goku saves the day by having Vegeta throw a Genkidama -which energy came from friends- at him.

I've seen these episodes before !

[Robby]

Glad you enjoyed it but I found it to be really dumb and insulting Legend of Khora season 2 nonsense.

! Giant ki power ranger aura mode? Really? A little guy can fight a big guy in Dragonball but kaiju fights are ridiculous.
! Also, their solution was basically "absorb a spirit bomb" which movie… 7? did as a solution almost 30 years ago.
! And for all that using Uub is a nice touch and fair given that we know the wider context of the DB timeline, its a bit of a copout and a cheat here since this story never really mentioned or hinted at or adressed it anyway? Yeah we can think about it and it makes sense, but for THIS story it's wonky as all get out. Unless the very next story finally skips ahead another couple years to that tournament finally...
! Nice to see Vegeta's technique work out though and save the day at least, even if he is basically just making a discount spirit bomb now along with having learned the teleport...
! And after all that repeating of the exact same mistake as Frieza and Cell... they still had to kill the guy in the end and Goku will learn nothing.

[gyuukarubi]

@Robby:

Glad you enjoyed it but I found it to be really dumb and insulting Legend of Khora season 2 nonsense.

! Giant ki power ranger aura mode? Really? A little guy can fight a big guy in Dragonball but kaiju fights are ridiculous.
! Also, their solution was basically "absorb a spirit bomb" which movie… 7? did as a solution almost 30 years ago.
! And for all that using Uub is a nice touch and fair given that we know the wider context of the DB timeline, its a bit of a copout and a cheat here since this story never really mentioned or hinted at or adressed it anyway? Yeah we can think about it and it makes sense, but for THIS story it's wonky as all get out. Unless the very next story finally skips ahead another couple years to that tournament finally...
! Nice to see Vegeta's technique work out though and save the day at least, even if he is basically just making a discount spirit bomb now along with having learned the teleport...
! And after all that repeating of the exact same mistake as Frieza and Cell... they still had to kill the guy in the end and Goku will learn nothing.

You may dislike it, but the precedent had already been set and this move makes perfect sense. Gotenks already showed us that it’s possible to transform your ki into a corporeal form.

And as far as giants go… are we forgetting about the Oozaru transformation? This seems to be a more divine, advanced alternative

And yes, Goku still shows his enemies mercy and puts everyone on Earth in danger ... again. But those flaws are consistent with his character. He changed Vegeta’s heart and he still thinks he can change the hearts of his enemies. Thinking about this from a purely allegorical stance, Dragon Ball is forcing us to consider whether or not mercy is a “good thing.”

When our worst enemies feign surrender, should we relent and show mercy? Goku wants to believe that everyone is inherently good deep down. But he knows nothing of their abyssal hatred, cowardice, and commitment to victory over honor.
That seems to be his final test.

And lo and behold, we as readers shouldn’t be one to judge. Who ended up saving Goku’s ass this time?

Oob. Goku’s final wish at the end of the Boo arc. Just as how mercy to Vegeta has saved his ass countless times — and how showing mercy to Piccolo has as well. Even being merciful to Freeza, a hateful and genocidal earmonger, resulted in them saving the universe in the Tournament of Power.

With Oob, I actually really appreciate how it was handled here. Feels like a deus ex machina to Goku, but he literally receives the powers of God after a previous investment he has yet to realize.

Regarding Vegeta, his character arc has always been one of redemption and growth. He’s learning techniques that Goku does not — while also picking up ones to keep him competitive. I dig it.

[Robby]

@gyuukarubi:

And as far as giants go… are we forgetting about the Oozaru transformation? This seems to be a more divine, advanced alternative

I literally said
"A little guy can fight a big guy in Dragonball but kaiju fights are ridiculous."

Tiny guy fighting a giant is cool. Two giants duking it out when one of them is just doing it with a magic aura transformation is dumb.

And lo and behold, we as readers shouldn’t be one to judge. Who ended up saving Goku’s ass this time?

Oob. Goku’s final wish at the end of the Boo arc.

He still had to 100% destroy and murder Buu to get there. And Goku has quite a lengthy body count under his belt.

Its fine that the hero gives the villain a chance to run away and live to fight another day after stewing on their defeats for a while. Most of Goku's friends are former enemies. Its not fine when he keeps giving them goddamn senzu beans to pop them back to full power before they've had any time at all to reflect and they're still in full genocide mode and having mental break downs so that they can then blow themselves up and kill everyone.

Even being merciful to Freeza, a hateful and genocidal earmonger, resulted in them saving the universe in the Tournament of Power.

They had literally killed Frieza on three different occasions prior to that point. (four if you count the old movies. And his brother twice.) And he's still going around enslaving people and causing horrors across the galaxy and setting Broly against them and murdering Broly's father. He helped in one fight for half an hour, that does NOT excuse or forgive what he did or continues to do.

The could have resurrected Android 16, or gotten charaters like Pikuhan to help. Or not blown up the time chamber and been able to use Buu. Or looked past their own planet if Beerus had gotten off his ass. The story had to bend over backwards to contrive to throwing Frieza in there.

Frieza only gets a pass because he's a liked character, not because he actually deserves it.

(Also in a free for al tournament you have a butterly effect thign going on. Sure Frieza helped in the decisive final bit, but if he hadn't been there would other eliminations have gone differently? Does he really warrant more credit than Gohan or Vegeta or Piccollo? Tien did almost nothing but he still stopped that one guy that was giving everyone trouble.)

For all that Frieza is being given a fifth chance, why did they never bring back Rabbit Boss or the Red Ribbon generals or King Piccollo or Raditz or Nappa or the Ginyus or 16 or Cell or Spopovich or Babidi? Any of the movie villains like Wheelo or Slug or Cooler or original Broly or Bojack or Hildegarn? Or any of the countless minions those guys had? None of those guys ever got second chances. 16 certainly absolutely deserved it, at least as much as 17 did. ANd the GInyus weren't that bad…

[gyuukarubi]

@Robby:

I literally said
"A little guy can fight a big guy in Dragonball but kaiju fights are ridiculous."

Tiny guy fighting a giant is cool. Two giants duking it out when one of them is just doing it with a magic aura transformation is dumb.
I’m not trying to be argumentative — I totally respect your opinion. That was simply my rationale as to why I enjoyed the chapter. It felt really “Dragon Ball” — way more than GT ever did.

@Robby:

He still had to 100% destroy and murder Buu to get there. And Goku has quite a lengthy body count under his belt.

Its fine that the hero gives the villain a chance to run away and live to fight another day after stewing on their defeats for a while. Most of Goku's friends are former enemies. Its not fine when he keeps giving them goddamn senzu beans to pop them back to full power before they've had any time at all to reflect and they're still in full genocide mode and having mental break downs so that they can then blow themselves up and kill everyone.

True — Goku HAS killed before. He’s very selfish — he just wants to fight strong guys and add them to the team. Kinda like Kaido, actually.

@Robby:

They had literally killed Frieza on three different occasions prior to that point. (four if you count the old movies. And his brother twice.) And he's still going around enslaving people and causing horrors across the galaxy and setting Broly against them and murdering Broly's father. He helped in one fight for half an hour, that does NOT excuse or forgive what he did or continues to do.

I’m not saying that it excuses anything Freeza has done. I’m simply stating that it’s an objective fact that Goku and Freeza saved the universe.

@Robby:

The could have resurrected Android 16, or gotten charaters like Pikuhan to help. Or not blown up the time chamber and been able to use Buu. Or looked past their own planet if Beerus had gotten off his ass. The story had to bend over backwards to contrive to throwing Frieza in there.

Pikuhan isn’t canon and Android 16 wasn’t strong enough. Freeza and Buu are the only villains strong enough to compete with Goku and Vegeta.

@Robby:

Frieza only gets a pass because he's a liked character, not because he actually deserves it.

I saw it as a “necessary evil.”

@Robby:

(Also in a free for al tournament you have a butterly effect thign going on. Sure Frieza helped in the decisive final bit, but if he hadn't been there would other eliminations have gone differently? Does he really warrant more credit than Gohan or Vegeta or Piccollo? Tien did almost nothing but he still stopped that one guy that was giving everyone trouble.)

I think he does… no one else had a chance against Jiren.

@Robby:

For all that Frieza is being given a fifth chance, why did they never bring back Rabbit Boss or the Red Ribbon generals or King Piccollo or Raditz or Nappa or the Ginyus or 16 or Cell or Spopovich or Babidi? Any of the movie villains like Wheelo or Slug or Cooler or original Broly or Bojack or Hildegarn? Or any of the countless minions those guys had? None of those guys ever got second chances. 16 certainly absolutely deserved it, at least as much as 17 did. ANd the GInyus weren't that bad…

The movie villains don’t exist in the canon universe except Broly, and Goku + Vegeta only meet him because of Freeza. Those other guys just aren’t strong enough or just pure evil. Maybe Cell, but he’s entirely self-interested and could not care less about earth struggles.

Freeza is pure evil, but also very selfish and loves life. Also, dominance. It probably was a bad idea bringing him back to life, as he’s still destroying planets.

There’s an overall amorality to that, however — given what we know of Gods and Angels in their world. Beerus is a god of destruction; arguably worse than all of those guys. Even MORE self interested too, haha

[Raffy]

Buu Saga: gohan buildup, gohan buildup annnnd goku finishes him off
Moro: vegeta buildup, vegeta buildup annnd goku finishes him off

[KageKageKing]

Man how about that one time Goku pulled that same stupid stunt in the Cell Games when the forum was down?

[Green_vs_Red]

@Robby:

The could have resurrected Android 16,

Or King Kai…...

@Robby:

or gotten charaters like Pikuhan to help.

Is he even canon?

@Robby:

For all that Frieza is being given a fifth chance, why did they never bring back Rabbit Boss or the Red Ribbon generals or King Piccollo or Raditz or Nappa or the Ginyus or 16 or Cell or Spopovich or Babidi?

I like to think they didn't bring back Rabbit due to the fact that no one remembers he was left stuck on the moon…..and was still there when Roshi blew it up. Bringing back Nappa would be hella funny though if only because of how he and Vegeta would get along.

@Robby:

Any of the movie villains like Wheelo or Slug or Cooler or original Broly or Bojack or Hildegarn?

Robby are you okay?

@Robby:

ANd the GInyus weren't that bad…

Sure if we overlook Recoome damn near paralyzing Vegeta, Gohan, & Krillin.

[JulieYBM]

I feel like I would have liked this chapter if the arc hadn't been so fucking terrible since the end of the Namek portion. I really wish Moro had had more depth to his character.

[Robby]

@Green_vs_Red:

Is he even canon?

No. But neither is any of Super past the movies. Heck, even old stuff long accepted like History of Bardock and History of Trunks aren't canon anymore either. It's all made up by the animation staff, with Toriyama occasionally throwing in a little input on designs, just as he did for the old movies. . They made a roster of 80 brand new characters to throw into the thing, and made an abusive ongoing joke about Yamcha being worthless and threw away Tien after he got one fight (when the other members all got BS power ups)

And while anything that happened in ol DBZ is questionable at this point since Kai cut most of the filler, it IS a character in the roster, and they go back to stuff like Super 4 all the time in the spinoff media even though GT is certainly non-canon by now. (Especially in Heroes)

They can do whatever they want. They weren't limited to bringing back THAT character. They had three decades of old characters they could have gone to, (Hey, Aralae is joked powered super powerful. Deviman could have blown up a opponent before getting disqualified.) or invented someone new. Heck, Android 17 was new for all intents and purposes given he hadn't been seen except for one scene since Cell.

Sure if we overlook Recoome damn near paralyzing Vegeta, Gohan, & Krillin.

We overlook Vegeta paralyzing Goku and his minion killing half the crew. We overlook Piccollo shattering every lib in Goku's body and then later actually killing him.

Burter and Jeice didn't seem that bad. ANd Ginyu's body switch mechanic probably would have worked nicely at the tourney up to a point. maybe not on Jiren and Hit, but certainly some of the lower tiers.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@gyuukarubi:

I’m simply stating that it’s an objective fact that Goku and Freeza saved the universe.

17 won the tournament. And they outnumbered Jiren 3 to 1 by the end. Goku and 17 could have just run around the edges for a couple seconds to wait for a time out, they didn't HAVE to win by beating Jiren. (Outside of shonen law.)

Frieza helped due to the scenario he helped create. The final competiors might have been very different if he hadn't been there. Maybe Frost would have helped fight Jiren instead. Maybe Gohan still would have been in it if his final opponent strategy hadn't depended on Frieza. Maybe Goku could have tried a fusion. That was too big and varied a fight to judge, it wasn't about JUST overpowering one single guy for once and needing exactly that power level to top them..

Maybe Tien taking out that one sniper is ultimately what really won it because that allowed character X to beat character Y later. Or whoever noticed the tiny guy (Piccollo?)

And we have no idea how well someone like Buu would have done with his part splitting, turning enemies to candy, and near infinite stamina and healing powers.

@gyuukarubi:

Pikuhan isn’t canon and Android 16 wasn’t strong enough.

If Krillin, Tien, and Roshi were all strong enough to be in the tournament, even if not to the end, 16 certainly was.

And all of Super is filler past the movies, just like GT was. "Canon" is only what they want it to be and limited only by their imaginations. Even without grabbing from the 3 decades of old characters, they could have easily made new ones. They clearly didn't give a single shit about Tien, and 17 was basically a new character for all intents and purposes that they just grabbed from the archive, so they might as well have tried making someone new or usng a different underserved character. Cripes, finally teach Kaioken to the humans or something.

[Green_vs_Red]

@Robby:

We overlook Vegeta paralyzing Goku and his minion killing half the crew. We overlook Piccollo shattering every lib in Goku's body and then later actually killing him.

In the interest of fairness Piccolo at the least did have something of axe to grind considering Goku put a hole in his father's chest and killed some of his brothers. So we can at least call that even :ninja:

@Robby:

and threw away Tien after he got one fight

At least he got to fight as opposed to what Chiaotzu & Yamcha get stuck doing whenever there's a crisis.

@Robby:

ANd Ginyu's body switch mechanic probably would have worked nicely at the tourney up to a point. maybe not on Jiren and Hit, but certainly some of the lower tiers.

Ginyu's body swapping gimmick definitely makes him even more creepier if you assume he's used that technique multiple times before the Namek mission to exchange bodies on a whim.

[gyuukarubi]

@Robby:

17 won the tournament. And they outnumbered Jiren 3 to 1 by the end. Goku and 17 could have just run around the edges for a couple seconds to wait for a time out, they didn't HAVE to win by beating Jiren. (Outside of shonen law.)

Frieza helped due to the scenario he helped create. The final competiors might have been very different if he hadn't been there. Maybe Frost would have helped fight Jiren instead. Maybe Gohan still would have been in it if his final opponent strategy hadn't depended on Frieza. Maybe Goku could have tried a fusion. That was too big and varied a fight to judge, it wasn't about JUST overpowering one single guy for once and needing exactly that power level to top them..

Maybe Tien taking out that one sniper is ultimately what really won it because that allowed character X to beat character Y later. Or whoever noticed the tiny guy (Piccollo?)

And we have no idea how well someone like Buu would have done with his part splitting, turning enemies to candy, and near infinite stamina and healing powers.

Buu was the original ringer, but he fell asleep for months. Freeza was the only person who could compete — his Golden Freeza transformation is stronger than most enemies. They needed that strength to save the universe.

@Robby:

If Krillin, Tien, and Roshi were all strong enough to be in the tournament, even if not to the end, 16 certainly was.

Android 16 was an old model android. While he was strong, he’s not as strong as Buu or Golden Freeza.

@Robby:

And all of Super is filler past the movies, just like GT was. "Canon" is only what they want it to be and limited only by their imaginations. Even without grabbing from the 3 decades of old characters, they could have easily made new ones. They clearly didn't give a single shit about Tien, and 17 was basically a new character for all intents and purposes that they just grabbed from the archive, so they might as well have tried making someone new or usng a different underserved character. Cripes, finally teach Kaioken to the humans or something.

I totally understand your misconception now, Robby

Did you know that while Toyotarou draws the Dragon Ball Super manga, it’s entirely written by Akira Toriyama?

That’s what makes DBS special — it is the literal canon successor to the original Dragon Ball manga. DB canon is:

• DB manga
• Battle of Gods film
• Resurrection F film
• Broly Film
• DBS manga

So everything you’re reading is entirely canon. Does it makes sense why this development is so exciting?

Even the abilities in DBS logically build off of ideas established in the original DB manga. Things only hinted at, but never explicitly stated.

I personally believe that all of this content far surpasses any filler created by Toei or others to pad out the Dragon Ball story (the other movies, filler arcs, GT, etc.)

EDIT: For context, here’s how every chapter of DBS is made. Toriyama’s input is HUGE.

[Robby]

@gyuukarubi:

Did you know that while Toyotarou draws the Dragon Ball Super manga, [it’s entirely written by Akira Toriyama?

No, he doesn't, and neither article say that anywhere in there.

Toriyama gives broad ideas, will work in a brainstorming sessions for a day, is used as a consultant, can veto things, does an occasional design.

He does not write it. He doesn't pace it, or lay it out, or make the initial dialogue. Toyotaro does the whole chapter, Toriyama gives it a look over, then Toyotaro does the final inks and stuff. Same relationship he had with the anime.

Toriyama is involved, so they can advertise that fact. It doesn't mean he's actually spending any time with it or putting thought into it during the creation process..

Advising and consulting, sure. He's there for the brainstorming at the start to shape the overall outline for the next year. But that is not his writing the script out and deciding the pacing and the jokes and the drama bits it then having it drawn, even if you consider its going through the lens of another artist.

He is at best broadly outlining, then someone else is writing and drawing it, then he does an editorial pass for some mild punch up. Maybe, MAYBE they're doing it marvel style and he's even doing the final dialogue. But it's not the same thing as writing it all himself.

Like Stan Lee's entire script for Fantastic Four Galactus was basically "The fantastic four fight god." and then Kirby went wild for three issues and did all the stuff with the silver surfer and the meteor shower and designed galactus and did the events and the spectacle… and then at the end Stan Lee went back in and put the dialogue in there. SO it reflects his style and meshed with everything else, and they can say he's the writer, but all the actual work and storytelling was on Kirby. Stan Lee had literally nothing to do with the creation of the Silver Surfer, but he put the words in the character's mouths and was the "writer" on that issue so he officially gets full co-credit even though everyone knows he had nothing to do with the Surfer.

Toriyama's Fingerprints were all over the movies, Battle of Gods especially. The pacing, the comedy, the weird asides, stupid shit like making Vegeta dance or the Pilof gang randomly being de-aged, Trunks hitting on Mai, everything about Beerus not being a serious villain but a guy that likes eating food... all Toriyama. He was all over it and it showed. Then the anime version of the exact same material where they added stuff without him was all... lesser, more poorly paced. Same with the F movie which also suffered after it moved off his script.. Even the Broly movie you get it with things like what Frieza and Bulma's new wishes are and the entire half hour opening sequence hardcore breaking the old anime canon.

For the tournament of Power he designed a handful of characters, and they gladly showed off those sketches, and had input on Jiren's personality... but he didn't create the entire 80 character roster and 20 angels and Gods of Destruction or dictate how the flow of things would go... that's part of why the manga and anime varied so wildly there.

The manga has none of his touch. None of the charm or personality or surprise, not the comedy or the weird shit, the pacing and suspense are different and more poorly handled.

Involved and taking a pass at it? Sure. But it is NOT "entirely written" by him.](https://comicbook.com/anime/news/dragon-ball-super-manga-toyotaro-akira-toriyama-work/)