Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

Green_vs_Red

Booooooooooooooooooooo

Such heresy…..but I won't she'd much of a tear for disrespect of Gotenks.

@Yuugi's:

In the outline he wrote for the Future Trunks arc Toriyama had planned for Zamasu to be defeated by Gokuu and Vegeta teaming up, not Vegetto. Vegetto was likely a decision made in part to sell Vegetto Blue merchandise or because Series Director Hatano Morio really wanted a big Potara battle, but I still think it would've been far more satisfying to have Gokuu and Vegeta use combination plays to destroy Merged Zamasu's Potara and then have Trunks kills Gokuu Black. Shida Naotoshi animating a little bit of Vegetto Blue was nice and all, but it's Gokuu, Vegeta and Trunks whom I'm invested in here, not Vegetto.

In that outline was Zamazu still supposed to get immortality like Garlic Jr. making him even more broken?

MetaMario

@Yuugi's:

Vegetto was likely a decision made in part to sell Vegetto Blue merchandise

oh absolutely, the new Saiyan color forms lend themselves well to toys, toys, and more toys.

Monquito

tbh, since they decided to keep going after the DBGT fiasco, it all seems like they're making money out of randomly picking up fanfics on the internet.
nothing is really cannon to me anymore.

MetaMario

Hayama

pariston_hill

@kouch_lee:

At this point, I'd pay sweet money for a movie that took place during early-mid Dragon Ball, featuring Krillin, Yamcha, Ten Shin Han, Roshi, Chaotzu and yes, Goku. Make it funny, make it creative, make it adventurous, and have actual good fights. But I guess wathever semi-grounded villain or group of villains that anyone could come up with for that time period wouldn't be able to have "Maximumz Powerz and Stilz Grouwingz!", and if you can't up the ante and satiate the power creeps that need a new transformation every 10 episodes, then it's not Dragon Ball, or something. I guess.

We don't deserve such masterpiece, it's made right form the stuff of dreams. Also it would require creativity from Toei and Toriyama, which are things I don't believe they put any effort since before I was born.

Blissed

It'd be cool and all, but the gang is pretty outdated outside of tournament arcs, so I'm never that bothered by it these days.

killerbee1000

Seeing canon Broly's new characterization and backstory has me intrigued enough to want to see the film.

MajinArekkusu

@killerbee1000:

Seeing canon Broly's new characterization and backstory has me intrigued enough to want to see the film.

I don't know, so far he barely spoke and was his usual screaming self. I wouldn't get my hopes up, toriyamas writing hasn't been great in years.

Black Leg

I don't think the story matters at all for me, I never really cared at all about what was cannon or non cannon. The animation and character designs from the original trailer have already sold me on this movie.

MajinArekkusu

From creator Akira Toriyama = Produced by Steven Spielberg. Aka means nothing nowadays. xD

And sure it will look good, but I hope they have a lot of long fights then, cause the story will be paper thin to have the characters stand around and talk generic shit.

JulieYBM

@MajinArekkusu:

I don't know, so far he barely spoke and was his usual screaming self. I wouldn't get my hopes up, toriyamas writing hasn't been great in years.

@MajinArekkusu:

From creator Akira Toriyama = Produced by Steven Spielberg. Aka means nothing nowadays. xD

And sure it will look good, but I hope they have a lot of long fights then, cause the story will be paper thin to have the characters stand around and talk generic shit.

The last two films had perhaps Toei Animation's weakest directors guiding them. With Nagamine Tatsuya overseeing the production I really don't foresee the film being bad. Nagamine's role is to curate the story to refine weak elements (if he can convince Toriyama of the changes' necessities). Also the schedule eventually forced them to drag out the story near the end we saw Series Director Hatano Morio and Scenarist Tomioka Atsuhiro really nail the character work and intrigue in the Future Trunks arc. Nagamine should be able to do the same here.

MetaMario

I'm surprised this movie has Toriyama's guidance, when Koyama was the guy that hyped Broly up so much. Wonder what he thinks.

Kizuchan

It wouldn't surprise me this Broly was originally just another Saiyan character Toriyama came up with, but then Toei went "hey why not use the name to make more money" and Toriyama went "Who Broly? Oh. K."

Here, have some pretty backgrounds:

The message is the same about Broly, the big cut off text says according to Herms "Beyond true strength, there is…"

JulieYBM

Toriyama says he was asked to use Broli and he watched his original films to get some ideas.

Yama'uchi Shigeyasu added a line that was original cut from the end of what I imagine was Broli's first movie where Broli questioned who he was. It looks like Yama'uchi's ideas for the character were being actively stamped out by somebody above him. :(

Kizuchan

Yeah, that was basically said, but I'm speculating he might've had Saiyans on his mind even before the Broly suggestion.

The trailer also had the question "What do you see beyond strength?" a wording which Jiren uses at some point.

JulieYBM

@Kizuchan:

Yeah, that was basically said, but I'm speculating he might've had Saiyans on his mind even before the Broly suggestion.

The trailer also had the question "What do you see beyond strength?" a wording which Jiren uses at some point.

It'll be interesting to see if Jiren's dream becomes an overarching goal for the characters now. The Mastery of Selflessness seems to be the big goal still, although if they're trying to build to beyond even that I have to wonder what they have in store.

I'm really hoping to see Freeza attain the Mastery of Selflessness to stay on par with Gokuu. With the mental training he did in Hell he could probably attain it now that he knows what to look for and how it feels.

MrPecans

@Yuugi's:

It'll be interesting to see if Jiren's dream becomes an overarching goal for the characters now. The Mastery of Selflessness seems to be the big goal still, although if they're trying to build to beyond even that I have to wonder what they have in store.

I'm really hoping to see Freeza attain the Mastery of Selflessness to stay on par with Gokuu. With the mental training he did in Hell he could probably attain it now that he knows what to look for and how it feels.

Yeah, I agree with the Frieza part! More Frieza relevance! It's the new normal!

JulieYBM

@MrPecans:

Yeah, I agree with the Frieza part! More Frieza relevance! It's the new normal!

At this point it'd be dumb to just kill him again. I never, ever saw Freeza teaming up with Gokuu to defeat Jiren coming. I seriously thought he'd wait until he could knock them both out from hiding and be the last man standing. That ending changed the rules, so I say go with this new rule book and play with it as much as you can. I honestly hope Freeza does nothing directly in this movie. It'd be a new, third dynamic for Toriyama to have to consider in his future storylines and that I look forward to.

MrPecans

@Yuugi's:

At this point it'd be dumb to just kill him again. I never, ever saw Freeza teaming up with Gokuu to defeat Jiren coming. I seriously thought he'd wait until he could knock them both out from hiding and be the last man standing. That ending changed the rules, so I say go with this new rule book and play with it as much as you can. I honestly hope Freeza does nothing directly in this movie. It'd be a new, third dynamic for Toriyama to have to consider in his future storylines and that I look forward to.

What do you mean by Frieza doing nothing directly?

JulieYBM

@MrPecans:

What do you mean by Frieza doing nothing directly?

The Golden Freeza arc was a 'direct' move by Freeza. What I'd like to see is Freeza use his head a little for once and show that he's learn from his mistakes and stop being such a brat and manipulate others to do his bidding for him. At least do this for a little while before potentially letting Freeza get over his grudges.

maxterdexter

http://www.siliconera.com/2018/07/24/dragon-ball-fighterz-gets-new-trailers-for-base-goku-and-base-vegeta/

Wait, that wasn't a joke of DBZA, but that is actually a quote from your dub Goku? That is the least goku thing that I've ever heard a Goku saying.

MetaMario

@maxterdexter:

http://www.siliconera.com/2018/07/24/dragon-ball-fighterz-gets-new-trailers-for-base-goku-and-base-vegeta/

Wait, that wasn't a joke of DBZA, but that is actually a quote from your dub Goku? That is the least goku thing that I've ever heard a Goku saying.

Yeah, he said it against Freeza after turning Super Saiyan…..in the 90s, compared to now and in Kai where Goku does talk like Goku.

But the real question is WHY did that article include that, when the trailer is in Japanese and I'm almost 100% positive english Goku doesn't even say it in any of the video games these days?

maxterdexter

It was just a refference I guess.

I remember around that scene that Goku was claming vengance for the saiyans, the namekians and himself, as he identified as a saiyan born, and true earthling.

Kizuchan

That was really surprising to me when I first stumbled upon the English dub, that not really being the first exposure to DB to me.

The actual quote is just him saying he was righteous-hearted Saiyan from Earth awakened by fury. The old English dub really did make Goku Japanese Superman.

It explains why people are so outraged by Goku's more selfish behaviour in Super. The old dub gives mercy as the reason why Goku let Vegeta go and it has Goku have a speech to Ginyu about not doing anything unjust among others. It's a pretty big rewrite of Goku's character when you put all the changes together. Vegeta is also played up to be a victim rather than essentially being evil himself. From what I know a lot of that is fixed in the Kai dub, but I'm only familiar with the Super dub, so I dunno.

MetaMario

@Kizuchan:

From what I know a lot of that is fixed in the Kai dub, but I'm only familiar with the Super dub, so I dunno.

Yep, it is.

Lord Starfish

They fixed the Super Saiyan speech too. Funfact: This is apparently the only time FUNimation's dub has ever used "Son Goku". Which I admittedly think is really dumb, like, the fact that they ever shied away from his family name in the first place never made sense, but… it's in there now. In one of the most iconic moments of the series. So then why do we have Resurrection F with Freeza plotting revenge on "Goku"? Heck, he's literally the one person who has in the dub heard Goku's full name.

…This is of course super irrelevant to anything, but I just think it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Robby

I sorta get it, it Japanese addressing people by their last name is the standard, so even Goku's friends call him Son, and I'm pretty sure Piccollo does even now.

In English, not so much, especially when Son can be misinterpreted. And it's just a really weird name. You do it backwards like japanese and you get Son Goku, but you put it straight like in English and we get Goku Son…. what, Gohan?

So I understand why they didn't use it as universally as the japanese, but there were plenty of times where he was introducing himself he could have said Son Goku. So I dunno.

kouch_lee

On a semi related note, and considering I grew a bit bored of Dragon Ball Fighterz, I think Base Goku might put me back into it. My team has Yamcha and Tien + "someone else", be it Adult Gohan, Vegeta, Buu. . .but that doesn't feel thematically right. Of course the third should be Krillin, but I can't play him no matter how hard I try.
Now, Base Goku with Kaioh Ken and no super saiyan? That might feel right enough.
So, I guess you could say I'm interested, much more than Vegito Blue or fucken Broly.
Now, give me Roshi, goddammit!

Sano

I don't know if it just me, but I like the anime verison of the Touranment of Power more then the manga version. I mean their are some things I do like the manga version for. For example I like that Gohan is wearing his Piccolo uniform in the manga version of the arc. While their are also some things that I don't like. For example how a lot of characters gets eliminated to fast (18, Ribrianne, and Hit). While the anime had some of the characters get shine a bit (Krillin's fight against the fighter from Universe 4, 18 battle against Ribrianne, and the two Roshi episodes.).

MetaMario

@Lord:

They fixed the Super Saiyan speech too. Funfact: This is apparently the only time FUNimation's dub has ever used "Son Goku".

Not the dub, but it actually CAN be heard in the Burst Limit video game - funnily enough - during the same story mode cutscene.

Ageless_Bum

@Sano:

I don't know if it just me, but I like the anime verison of the Touranment of Power more then the manga version. I mean their are some things I do like the manga version for. For example I like that Gohan is wearing his Piccolo uniform in the manga version of the arc. While their are also some things that I don't like. For example how a lot of characters gets eliminated to fast (18, Ribrianne, and Hit). While the anime had some of the characters get shine a bit (Krillin's fight against the fighter from Universe 4, 18 battle against Ribrianne, and the two Roshi episodes.).

I think the Manga might be suffering from being the second one to tell the same story. Normally it is the other way around, but in this case we already know most of the outcome, so we are just left to judge who did it better. Fair or not usually the one who goes first gets to set the bar. I am not saying that the anime ToP was fantastic, but it was not bad, so whoever comes next has to be significantly better because we already have the feeling that we just saw this same routine. The manga is not bad, but it is not significantly better than the anime to distinguish itself.

Demon Rin

@Robby:

So I understand why they didn't use it as universally as the japanese, but there were plenty of times where he was introducing himself he could have said Son Goku. So I dunno.

Battle of Gods/Super has the perfect moment for it too… the part where Kaio tries to get him to introduce himself properly to Beerus would have been perfect for this... but....... nothing.

I don't get why they can't include the Son. I doubt it's trademark issues too since "Goku" would still be in there if they called him "Son Goku". They attempted to fix Tenshinhan by saying his name is "Tien Shinhan" for example, only this actually IS a separate surname....

Kizuchan

In the German dub he was only ever called Son Goku and it was so wierd for me to learn Son is actually his surname. I never thought about what his surname could be before that and now it's so wierd to go back to it (that and the script is a mess at points, but I still got the gist of what was going on and didn't meet much new info on rewatches, so in the big picture I guess it wasn't that bad).

Have a bunch of nostalgia for it, still.

Heavenly Demon

Just thought I'd share my thoughts about Chiaotzu and see what others thought about him because his character has bothered me for years XD

Cyclone_Baroness

Yeah I totally agree. He's basically such a non character people probably forgot he existed.

Zack

@Cyclone_Baroness:

Yeah I totally agree. He's basically such a non character people probably forgot he existed.

That was essentially a joke in the Yamcha comic. Really though, it comes down to Chiaotzu from the beginning always being more of a side-kick to Tien than his own character. Yamcha had a much further way to fall down than Chiaotzu did considering he didn't even end up with Bulma despite them being together through all of Dragon Ball.

MetaMario

Chiaotzu looks like a kid but he's like over 50 now.

Zack

@MetaMario:

Chiaotzu looks like a kid but he's like over 50 now.

Well, he is a vampire.

Supernova

Its a shame too. Out of all the designs for the main human cast he's def the one that stands out.

Md-Martin

I mean pretty much after his fight with Krillin in Dragon Ball, I personally held him to the standard of "Tien's Puar".

Kaiolino

Chaozu holds the distinction of being the only “main” character who has never interacted with Goku.

Green_vs_Red

@Zack:

Yamcha had a much further way to fall down than Chiaotzu did considering he didn't even end up with Bulma despite them being together through all of Dragon Ball.

To be fair Yamcha was originally a rival to Goku who basically would've eventually become what Krillen became. But I guess
Toriyama found a bald, noseless, shady, practicing Buddhist as being a more attractive character.

MetaMario

Damn, I know Goku got mad that Chaozu died in the battle against Nappa, but has at least said a sentence to him?

JulieYBM

. I am now so incredibly hype for this film. When Nagamine drew the storyboard for the film it was enough content for a three hour film, twice the intended length (so about nine episodes worth of content). Nagamine managed to increase the length of the film just a little bit (I'm betting his executive approved up to 105 minutes, like the extended editions of the last two films and One Piece Movie #8). Toriyama put a lot of effort into crafting the relationship between Broli, Chirai and Lemo while also giving Freeza a new advancement. Nagamine also says that they're trying to re-invent Dragon Ball's visual languages a bit and incorporating the physical attributes of the Saiyan forms more. That Nagamine also brought up that he's directing the character that his mentor, Yama'uchi Shigeyasu originated, also leaves me feeling positive. Yama'uchi is the biggest director to ever come out of Toei Animation, far more influential on modern directors (and through them their students). With Nagamine having to rise to the occasion I really can't wait to see how things pan out with this film.

I'm also sure that with all of this deleted material the next Dragon Ball series will start out with a remake of this film as a full nine episode story arc, too.

Kizuchan

If it's originally 3 hours of material, a retelling for a new series actually makes sense. Why waste all that instead of making something out of it?

But then, they had opportunity to expand and fix a lot of the stuff in the BoG and RoF remakes, but with RoF especially they didn't really do anything too big, even if there were a few changes.

Freeza having a character arc as a villain is the most interesting way to keep him relevant. He's much more of a schemer rather than just losing his cool, I'm totally down with that. You don't have many villainous character arcs were the villain turns into a "better villain".

I also like the mention of Broly actually having a real relationship with other characters. They are really keeping his personality under wraps, though. Which is still worrying. We haven't gotten even a few descriptive lines. But again, he IS the big mystery here.

JulieYBM

Dragon Ball Super had such a horrifically rushed production that Series Director Chioka Kimitoshi wasn't able to ever work on it personally, so I imagine any improvements they could have made to the first two arcs basically went out the window because nobody had any time to do anything. It's a miracle Episode #26 was as good as it was.

Robby

@Kizuchan:

But then, they had opportunity to expand and fix a lot of the stuff in the BoG and RoF remakes, but with RoF especially they didn't really do anything too big, even if there were a few changes.

They didn't really though. That first chunk of Super was famously underbudgeted and rushed, while all the talent was working on other projects.

Under good circumstances where Toei treated one of their flagships like the gem it is, yes, they had opportunity to expand and flesh out. In practice…. not really.

Kizuchan

That's what I said. There were some minor changes and additions (I liked that Goku was in his base form when he was shot), but in the end they basically did nothing.

JulieYBM

The budget was actually likely very large. The number of animators and animation supervisors used for all of Dragon Ball Super was very high due to the lack of time for whatever key animators they could scrounge up to animate the horrible Yamamuro Tadayoshi character models. Tate Naoki was basically breaking his back trying to work on as many episodes as possible to help with action cuts because he was the only good key animator willing to work on the series regularly at the time. Everybody else saw the writing on the wall with the schedule (not to mention Yamamuro) and stayed away for the most part. It wasn't until Hatano Morio took over as the series director that he was able to increase the quality of the series and even then the good bits of animation were very few and far between.