Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

Koliber

The "never learning new techniques" problem goes for the previous series, too. Always bothered me so thanks for pointing it out. Tenshinhan always only uses his Kikoho. Krillin only ever has his Destructo Disc. Lots of Kamehameha spam.

At least the ToP tried to put a new spin on some old stuff like the Disc and stronger Solar Flare. It also actually did introduce a series of new techniques, which hasn't happened in forever.

Goku using Ki to make a shield around him, the minefield technique and the new Destructo Disc attack are all new. Ultra Instinct is a very different form from any other Goku has gotten. Even the Kamehameha against Kefla tried something new with the technique.

I mean if it bothers you no matter what, nothing to do here, but I'm okay with it if it at least makes sense in context. If it's used because of a legitimate reason. The Mafuba in the FT arc made sense to me, too. It wasn't only there for a callback. There were other reasons for it to be used.

Well,to be fair, Krillin did design Kienzan in Z. And against Saibaimen he used different technique than ever before or after. And he acted as a "proxy" for genki dama (funny that first use of genki dama was more creative than any subsequent). Also Kienzan spam only really happened against Freeza, he became irrelevant fighting-wise after that, and before I think he only used it once against Nappa and Vegeta respectively. Tenshinhan's complaint is legit, but he did fade into obscurity in Z in general. And it's not like Goku didn't use Kamehameha in fresh ways in Z, "IT + Kamehameha" combo became so iconic that it become a signature move in few games. Against Freeza I remember him preparing two from under the water and firing while stying hidden. I agree that UI is nice change compared to other forms.

And Mafuba in FT arc… seeing that it had no consequences and even the "I trained hard to perfect Mafuba but I fucked up with the jar and can't even use it now" joke was there in the original DB... it served as nothing more than a callback. It made sense in the context, but I need more than "making sense" in fiction to entertain me.

Kizuchan

I don't know. All I need for stories to work is for them to make sense. (Jk, I get what you mean).

If it's just not enough for you (general you), nothing to do.

With the Mafuba it was also kind of a given it wouldn't work against Zamasu because that would be pretty anti-climatic. So was it something smart to address by the characters or a lazy callback? It clearly fit into the narrative as it's own thing, which is why I'm personally okay with it.
If you think about it, Gohan and Krillin in particular not having new techniques makes sense because Gohan doesn't train actively and Krillin quit being a martial artist for a while. Krillin got back to it the at least the several-month gap before the ToP. It shows Krillin was actually serious about it, which is cool. Seeing the old villains in the illusion forest also makes sense for Krillin's development.

I actually didn't bring examples of the callbacks that bother me. Obviously Kale, but at least she kinda learns to control it. But definitely all of the RoF arc. It literally had no reason to happen outside of appealing to fans. What was the point of Ginyu there? I can't really reason it with any logical story logic.

.access timeco.

Episode was boring, all the "Freeza is so manipulative and ahead of everything" wankering is making me feel bad for liking him, but Gohan is out so I'm fine with it. Now I'm in for whatever comes, specially Toppo training to be a GoD finally being inserted in the anime.
I suppose next episode will be Freeza's last one since Toppo is the ultimate demon killer and he is the ultimate demon, but I wonder if he was about to pull something when Gohan intervened in the fight… that shot of him seemed suspicious.

Md-Martin

Well, there goes my dream of Gohan being the last man standing.

Ruin

at this point, i wonder if anyone knows what to do with Gohan
or cares enough to do anything with him

Kizuchan

I just don't agree with new form = relevancy logic thing that I keep seeing with every character. The actual characterization should matter, not the transformations.

Because Gohan getting one would probably be the most forced one. Goku and Vegeta train. Gohan's whole thing is that he's properly starting again.

I'm still pretty sure Super (or a new series) is coming back at some point after the movie and leaving Gohan's "new form" (among other dangling plot threads like Sadala) for further story material would be good.

If not, unlike the Buu arc Gohan specifically was at least left off at a more positive note, I think.

MetaMario

Some fans really want Gohan to be "el blanco" and be some kind of god, but I've appreciated the fact that well, he's accomplished. One of the smartest minds out there, a loving wife, a child, a happy family, academia position…I don't need him to ohko everyone to like him.

maxterdexter

But none of those archivements matter for the average anime fan, they don't involve beating anyone up.

MetaMario

Ahhh, i was wondering why Dyspo sounded familiar. It's Bin Shimada! (Broly, Foxy, replacement Kami i think?)

@maxterdexter:

But none of those archivements matter for the average anime fan, they don't involve beating anyone up.

alas.

Crossword

It didn't really bother me with Goku for some reason, but Vegeta looks fucking weird with pupils, especially with that kawaii uguu eye shine on top of that. Otherwise I'm not a diehard Gohan fan so his being eliminated doesn't bother me much, but this episode did go to reinforce how Dyspo's damaged goods and should've been disposed of (ba dum tish) after that drubbing he got from Hit if he keeps falling for the same trick again and again.

LightningAce

Its about time we get a Toppo focused episode. That dude is a beast and the next God of destruction for Universe 11 ( assuming they survive )
Based on that power up he's gonna get next episode. Freeza is going to get royally wrecked badly.

MajinArekkusu

@Green_vs_Red:

LOL better animation is one thing better writing is s whole different ballgame.

Yeah, TOEI proved time and time again that all they want is cheap, quick cash grabs.^^

maxterdexter

Hearing the preview gameplay of dbfighter z I realize the excellent work done by team four stars related to the american dub of dragon ball, they kept what worked and moved on what it didn't.

LordPerucho

Feel bad for the Gohan fans who were expecting him to get a new transformation instead it was Vegeta who got it, that kawai blue form.

Ageless_Bum

@Kizuchan:

I just don't agree with new form = relevancy logic thing that I keep seeing with every character. The actual characterization should matter, not the transformations.

It's all about the hype that the vast majority of the fan base will feel. Something new = something interesting.

This is not universally true. I believe that when Krillin did the whole power up while getting his confidence in Super, no one expected greatness of him. He is just to firmly placed in the gag character section.

However among the stronger fighters, changes and/or power ups are what make the fans clamor for the particular character during that particular time. When these power ups still prove to be insufficient to defeat the antagonist, it either means another one is coming or the fight is about to end with the ass-pull maneuver. It has been the Dragonball MO pretty much since Z started.

Kizuchan

In detail, it's the logic of new coat of paint = visible change = relevancy

That's a very surface thing and I don't agree with it. The biggest character development moments in DB didn't actually have new transformations or actually flashy moves behind them.

I'd argue, Gohan's actual big character moment during the Cell arc was in the Time Chamber when he reflected about always having to be protected.

He didn't actually "develop" with the SSJ2 or Ultimate transformations. In the first case he snapped and in the second case he became arrogant. It's like people like the surface "climatic" stuff the most or something. Nothing wrong with that really, either. It's why I appreciate what Super did with Gohan. His moments were tied to his character resolve this arc. Like, actual character resolve.

Equally, Vegeta's biggest display of character development was in the Buu arc when he sacrificed himself to defeat Buu. Vegeta's Super Saiyan transformation is actually kinda shallow as far as character relevance goes. Piccolo's sacrifice to protect Gohan equally didn't have a transformation backing it and it still did have weight. Him fusing with Kami was a great bookend and showcase of selflessness to protect the Earth and actually did become with a power boost.

Even with Future Trunks, his transformation was powerful, but not really all that character-changing? But then Future Trunks mostly has his relationship with Vegeta as development material. He's kinda static, but I like him so I'm okay with it.

Goku has the most transformations and most of them are from training or specific character moments, not actual development.

But having a new transformation is a general relevance signifier for people, kind of a safety net. Nobody cares that Krillin's initial motivation to get into martial arts was to impress girls, but at this point he cares about 18 because he loves her and wants to be strong to protect her and even has the job of a policeman to show how much less selfish he is. He also did seem to get a powerup from his resolve so that's another exception. Whether it was just sort of a final attack thing or actual powerup is unclear. Stuff like this is because the series overwhelming focus on the power level stuff starting with Z. This episode, the story framed Gohan in a very positive light even, but if it's no flashy transformation, it just doesn't "count". It's kind of a instinctive reaction that isn't always true.

Ruin

If we get Vegetto again in a future arc will he combine forms and use the Super Saiyan Blue Kawaiioken x100?

MajinArekkusu

Why is Gohan still playing second fiddle? Did they never learn from Toriyama reducing him possibly being new main character to saiyamen and boring family man?

Ageless_Bum

@Kizuchan:

In detail, it's the logic of new coat of paint = visible change = relevancy

That's a very surface thing and I don't agree with it. The biggest character development moments in DB didn't actually have new transformations or actually flashy moves behind them.

I'd argue, Gohan's actual big character moment during the Cell arc was in the Time Chamber when he reflected about always having to be protected.

He didn't actually "develop" with the SSJ2 or Ultimate transformations. In the first case he snapped and in the second case he became arrogant. It's like people like the surface "climatic" stuff the most or something. Nothing wrong with that really, either. It's why I appreciate what Super did with Gohan. His moments were tied to his character resolve this arc. Like, actual character resolve.

Equally, Vegeta's biggest display of character development was in the Buu arc when he sacrificed himself to defeat Buu. Vegeta's Super Saiyan transformation is actually kinda shallow as far as character relevance goes. Piccolo's sacrifice to protect Gohan equally didn't have a transformation backing it and it still did have weight. Him fusing with Kami was a great bookend and showcase of selflessness to protect the Earth and actually did become with a power boost.

Even with Future Trunks, his transformation was powerful, but not really all that character-changing? But then Future Trunks mostly has his relationship with Vegeta as development material. He's kinda static, but I like him so I'm okay with it.

Goku has the most transformations and most of them are from training or specific character moments, not actual development.

But having a new transformation is a general relevance signifier for people, kind of a safety net. Nobody cares that Krillin's initial motivation to get into martial arts was to impress girls, but at this point he cares about 18 because he loves her and wants to be strong to protect her and even has the job of a policeman to show how much less selfish he is. He also did seem to get a powerup from his resolve so that's another exception. Whether it was just sort of a final attack thing or actual powerup is unclear. Stuff like this is because the series overwhelming focus on the power level stuff starting with Z. This episode, the story framed Gohan in a very positive light even, but if it's no flashy transformation, it just doesn't "count". It's kind of a instinctive reaction that isn't always true.

So the crux of it is that you are right. The largest character developments in the story have absolutely bupkis to do with power level. At the same time however, the vast majority of viewers to this show do not care about the development of the personality or character. They care about beams, punching, tanking hits, and speed (Almost in that order actually). I certainly can see what is compelling about the characters to the studied observer, but the sad truth of the matter is that if there was an episode were in nothing was said, but every second was fighting, beams, and power ups one after the other, it would likely be hailed as a fantastic episode. That is not a bad thing either. A lot of people watch dragon ball simply to see powerful people beat up powerful people.

Kizuchan

I do that too. The best action scenes are very good.

My favorite episodes of the ToP arc are 84, 90, 95, 110, 116 and 118. Two of them (110, 116) are purely centered around cool action scenes, while the other four (84, 90, 95, 118) combine cool action scenes and character stuff.

DB is best when it has a complete action scene to work with. I've always felt the weakest part of any given DB tournament is the prelims and some of the pretty short fights.

dropper

The main problem I see with Super when compared to Z is that they can pretty much instantly teleport and even time travel whenever they want. Look back at each of the main sagas during Z, each protagonist had to race against time/distance usually to arrive on time from a different planet, recover from a battle, train in the time chamber, yadda yadda. Toriyama introduces too many plot-progressing shortcuts by the end of Z, even as far back as senzu beans. The only real obstacles the characters are left with during Super are overcoming the opponents strength, good for merchandising but not for interesting plot progression or tension.

maxterdexter

Dragon Ball Z Fighther BEST situational finish spoilers:

!

Smiley

The characters interactions is one of the best things about this game, especially anything with Cell on it.

!

Ruin

Video game cell has always been superior to actual cell
Never forget the time he formed his own Spirit Bomb by harnessing Stupid Energy
the most potent force in the universe

MetaMario

I've been binging the FighterZ roasts and good god, Cell and Freeza take the cake.

In fact, I learned who has taken over Freeza for Chris Ayres - Daman Mills.
[hide]

Green_vs_Red

@Ruin:

Video game cell has always been superior to actual cell
Never forget the time he formed his own Spirit Bomb by harnessing Stupid Energy
the most potent force in the universe

Well minus the few times where he apparently forgot that his voice is supposed to change between his forms (and stay that way).

Ruin

@Green_vs_Red:

Well minus the few times where he apparently forgot that his voice is supposed to change between his forms (and stay that way).

Cell would have been better if he kept the gurgly bug voice all the way through imo

Cyan D. Funk

This is literally an Abridged bit.

Ruin

i love that you can sense the genuine glee in dameon clarke's voice at getting to be Cell at his most dickish

Ubiq

It doesn't have anything near as good for Tien as TFS's Kikohowyadoin' comeback though.

Kaiolino

Are all those vids from the story mode?

Cyan D. Funk

@Ruin:

i love that you can sense the genuine glee in dameon clarke's voice at getting to be Cell at his most dickish

Clarke has much more fun doing video games than he ever did doing the anime.

ARTEMlS

If we get Cell Dorado in DBS and he behaves in exactly that dickish way, I will never ever complain about DBS anymore.

Robby

It's a shame the game has the requisite 3v3 combat. I just wanna main Yamcha and become a god with him, dammit.

@Green_vs_Red:

Well minus the few times where he apparently forgot that his voice is supposed to change between his forms (and stay that way).

They didn't forget really. That was a dub invention. A good one, but not something they're going to code and record multiple lines for situational use

HaxeyeMihawk

Honestly between the games and TFS depictions (including Cell vs) non canon Cell is the best character in the series by FAR imo.

Kizuchan

Too bad his actual character is boring, well the first forms at least have the horror element going on, the perfect form is the boring one.

I really wanna get this just for the character interactions (the Nappa and Cell one was pretty great), if nothing else, so trying my best to not watch much of it.

MetaMario

Damien Clarke still voices Cell? I know in a few games it wasn't him.

Green_vs_Red

@Ruin:

Cell would have been better if he kept the gurgly bug voice all the way through imo

Why not we had/have plenty of characters with wrong or awkward sounding voice's all over the series another one wouldn't have hurt.

@Robby:

They didn't forget really. That was a dub invention. A good one, but not something they're going to code and record multiple lines for situational use

That was snark Robby.

MetaMario

IIRC in the Japanese version Wakamoto doesn't change his voice for Cell, right?

Green_vs_Red

@MetaMario:

IIRC in the Japanese version Wakamoto doesn't change his voice for Cell, right?

Nope .

Cyan D. Funk

@MetaMario:

Damien Clarke still voices Cell? I know in a few games it wasn't him.

Travis Willingham was Cell for a few games, not since the first Xenoverse though.

MrPecans

@Robby:

It's a shame the game has the requisite 3v3 combat. I just wanna main Yamcha and become a god with him, dammit.

Agreed man. I wish there was at least 1v1 mode. No chance though - I think we're in the super majority for preferring that. When I was younger, I loved team stuff, but now it just feels too hectic to me.

maxterdexter

At least is not like jump star victory vs that is 2 characters at the same time, I really disliked that.

Its like marvel vs capcom.

On the one character vs more, Personally I don't care either way, my pet peeve in these kind of games is unwieldy long super attack animations. There is none longer than 5 seconds. I checked.

Robby

I liked 2v2 multi team in X-Men vs. Street fighter. And then the Marvel Vs Capcom games the 3v3 was okay because the roster was just so huge and hectic, and large chunks of the roster were characters that had been getting play for years. But here its an all new game and a roster of 20.

(I kind of pulled away from fighting games when they got more combo and super heavy. Darkstalkers/Street Fighter Alpha 3/ Mortal Kombat 3/Marvel vs Capcom 1 is pretty much much where I stopped. So right around 2000 I guess?

I've still played fighting games in the time since (particularly the dragonball games) but never quite the same "play endlessly and actually master the game" style. Moved over to musou games at that point I guess.

Oh well. I'm also the only person that wants a Virtua Fighter 6. I miss playing Shun and Eileen.

Fuka-chan

@MrPecans:

Agreed man. I wish there was at least 1v1 mode. No chance though - I think we're in the super majority for preferring that. When I was younger, I loved team stuff, but now it just feels too hectic to me.

It's not too bad considering everyone only gets one health bar and it doesn't have multiple layers. I'd love for a 1v1 mode too but something tells me when the game comes out we'll find out how imbalanced it truly is and why we don't have one. They already said a lot of characters are better as support I mean.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

This arc picked up a lot when the tournament started and it was nice to see those characters who haven't done anything since early Z get some wins. Really have enjoyed what we got despite some glaring flaws and I'm really excited for the finale.

Kizuchan

In the end I gave in and saw some of the cutscenes.

They should really get the FighterZ writers on board if Super returns.

I'm a defender of Super, but it is pretty flawed and I would still not put it on par with any of the og DB and Z stuff.. except maybe the the latter half of the Buu arc.

Super's strength even is in it's character writing, I think. Character interactions and development are undoubtedly the highlight and the FighterZ writers do the interactions even better.

Some of it kind of ranges into strange "abridged" mode, but if they could reign that in a little, it would be some 10/10 stuff. The games' plots are always the most fanfiction-y type of stuff, but I think they really could write something solid when put in charge of actual story stuff with planning and the like.

MetaMario

Everyone is straight-up savage to each other. It's great.

Kizuchan

It's not like generic quipping, either. The writers respect the continuity in so many different ways.

I really hope the break till December is used to straighten things out and Super returns properly. Still pretty sure it will.

I've always felt like that it's not only animation that suffered because of that short pre-production time. The writers were probably pushed, too.

maxterdexter

It's way easier to write banter than an ongoing plot. But yeah.

Kizuchan

Yep. That, too. Who knows if they could even handle proper ongoing writing, game production is different, too. I'm pretty sure half the cutaways to peaceful times in the FT arc existed because the animators needed to be spared a little, so it's all just one machine where all parts have to properly work together. It's all also made from scratch because there is no source material and just a base outline to work with.

Super's failures seem pretty easy to understand where they came from. The conclusion for the FT arc, for example, probably would've been better if everything slowly hadn't visibly collapsed across the last third of the arc.