@Strooger:
I would prefer to not dwell on this part of the discussion for much longer since I think I'm basically on board with the idea at this point. But I'd like to clarify where I think the difference between Germa66, Kuro and CP9 lies. And it's basically only from a conventional understanding from how Oda usually handles his story lines.
In the case of Kuro, his reveal happened one chapter after he was introduced. In the case of CP9, them shooting Iceburg was what kicked off the plot of Water 7/Enies Lobby. In both cases they were introduced as the central focus of their respective storylines and it happened relatively early. So far in Wholecake, the focus has been on Big Mom and the Vinsmokes being willing to betray her hasn't been a wellhinted plotpoint.
Ooooooohh lol. Sorry, I didn't properly understand what you meant by the difference the first time.
I agree that she will definetly not be taken down ( the whole crew and more is going to be needed ) but at this point I don't think Luffy and BM will find any common ground. I lean more towards the idea that once she goes berserk, Luffy and the rest will flee and have parts of Big Mom's crew try and pursue them.
I disagree on that, and I can understand why you argue that. I can go into more detail when it comes to my thoughts later though. I will say this though. I think that the Straw Hats plus Jimbei's final boss this arc is going to be an illness-deranged Big Mom craving wedding cake, and Chopper's role as the doctor and Sanji's role as the cook playing pivotal roles to curing her for the sake of saving Totland, the new friends they've made her (including Pudding, who I can NEVER see them leaving behind), and saving Big Mom. And saving Big Mom from both the coup and destroying both her family and homeland would make her grateful enough to at least play some sort of game with Luffy similar to the one she played with Jimbei (despite them hating each other at the moment, their personalities towards the selfishness of piracy are VERY philosophically similar. To the point that Big Mom's been hinted to have a bit of respect for Luffy at different intervals. And Oda does not play around with thematics like that for no reason, and NEVER underestimate Luffy's pride and stupidity when it comes to taking deals like these). Luffy wins and Big Mom, thus being defeated in a much more cool and legitimate way than being beaten this early in the crew's growth, is forced to change her corrupt ways and become a decent ruler. At least until the Marines or Blackbeard Pirates roll in after Totland's over and take her out in a cover story or a few chapters like Ace's fight with Blackbeard lol.
Again, I could go into much more detail on my thoughts if you want.
Okay, this is something I definetly can get behind. I just hope we get something along these lines and that Oda doesn't think just making the Vinsmokes into bigger assholes will be enough. This would be precisely what they need to seem like real antagonists. On that point, I wonder who Sanji will have his final showdown with. Considering he has an axe to grind with both both of the older brothers and Judge.
Well, I definitely think he's at least going to kick Niji's ass after the Cosette incident. And he already kicked away Yonji as if he was a joke, so the result of a serious fight between them is clear (it's even possible for someone else like Reiju to take Yonji out). And Reiju is obviously going to be an ally. So the real question is if he will take Ichiji or Judge, because I find it hard to imagine him getting three serious fights in a row in one arc.
To be honest, earlier in the arc, I was also game for Ichiji betraying Judge to take over the Germa 66 (all these betrayal ideas are making this series sound like Game of Thrones lol). Basically due to his introduction being a lot more threatening and memorable similar to previous arc antagonists (showing up in a war torn island of fire and brimstone, tells a soldier to die for him successfully (the first instance we see this shown before Judge does it), and the winning side of the war hailing Germa 66's name), then how Judge kind of just appears in front of Sanji and talk about a public duel. It would basically be the type of situation where "Frankenstein's Creature" (Ichiji in this case as Judge's greatest creation) eventually betrays "Dr. Frankenstein" (Judge, who has the utmost pride in his superhuman sons), thus giving the latter his built-up comeuppance for having flawed pride and love for his gifted children and ostracizing the "dud", only to find out that his own oldest child finds himself superior than even his creator. Which would fit right in with how Ichiji's personality is the most cold and intimidating out of all the siblings by rarely expressing emotion (outside of pretentious smiles and frowns), always having the highest performance in training, and his design just screams handsome badass invincible manga/anime antagonist lol
However, the fact that his character has barely gotten a unique focus and always being collectively seen with the other Vinsmoke children has me doubting this possibility as the chapters go by. And, obviously, juggling TWO betrayals sounds a bit messy lol. But I think it could work if we get some unexpected individual focus on Ichiji in the next few chapters before the wedding, and for the betrayal to occur somewhere near the end of the arc when the coup is already in progress and Judge gets severely weakened. And Ichiji takes him out right when Sanji comes for his final boss fight, in a similar manner to the Sith's Rule of Two in Star Wars (it's funny how I bring up Star Wars when Germa 66 is made up of cloned soldiers like the Clone Troopers, and the Empire is inspired by Nazi Germany similar to Germa 66 lol) and how the apprentice can dispose of the master anytime they feel they have surpassed him, even if they're unfairly mortally wounded.
So if such a case like I mentioned does happen, there doesn't need to be a choice between Ichiji and Judge that gets in the way of too many fights. And Sanji already had a duel with Judge and we got a pretty good idea that he could have won if Judge didn't play dirty with getting innocent soldiers involved, so we already satisfyingly saw Judge fight and Sanji give out some catharsis against his abusive father. And Ichiji's betrayal would fit right in with how fake and superficial the idea of family is between the Vinsmokes. That, and I feel like we might get a second Vinsmoke flashback (similar to how Dressrosa had a bunch of flashbacks for everybody lol) that shows off more of how Judge worked as a scientist and his relationship with Sanji's mom, who we suspiciously barely got to see and know more about besides the fact that she's sick (even Usopp's mom, who was also only shown tragically sick for a few panels which makes me doubt that Oda would just rehash a flashback like that, got her name elaborated on). Which might paint Judge in a slightly more sympathetic light in regards to why he's so obsessed with making genetically perfect children as if to make up for some type of insecurity with human flaws.