Good chapter, Pudding is clearly going to try to off herself, which will mean Luffy will have to go safe her.
Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"
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I don't understand how people think Luffy will beat BM. I still think that if she goes down at all a third party will be taking her down. Bege doesn't seem to be the guy without a plan and Luffy has already taken down a top commander and the other crew haven't even really gotten involved. Its a PERFECT opportunity for Bege to do something. I don't know what but something.
I'm positive that Bege is going to pull something during the tea party. If the bomb does explode, its the perfect chance for him to try and take out BM.
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But Luffy already was at the battle of Marineford. Where was Kizaru when he was 17 years old? how old are Big Mom, and Kaido? haven't they been pirates for decades? stuck as Yonkos for decades, too?
I mean, how could Luffy and Roger even be compared to those people?
First of all you can compare whoever the frick you want because its a comparison and second Luffy isn't even at the level of a YONKO yet much less Roger. Whose to say Shanks wasn't Luffy's level when he was 19. The guy was on Rogers crew so it would make sense. The thing about getting stronger is once you reach certain level there is no one to test your strength against. I mean there are four people in the One Piece world who could stand up to a yonko. That would be the other yonko. Unless WB was waaaay stronger than all of the other yonko even an admiral to them is not a close match. So people staying at the same level for years and years kinda makes sense. Its easy to grow when you start out weak. Just because Luffy is basically the 'reincarnation' of Roger does not mean that he is at Rogers level. By your line of thinking he would have been able to take on the admirals in the war.
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Hopefully once Luffy understands the full situation, we can still get something like this.
Deep down Sanji knows this, he's just in his lowest point right now. But remember that all of this started with the group's separation at the end of Dressrosa, where Luffy trusted Sanji to fire back at Big Mom's ship. He had to assume a leader-like situation, and had to make some calls after to make sure Nami, Chopper, and Brook were safe and secure. Then the Vinsmokes showed up. And at that, his hands were tied.
Really this mirrors everyone's complaints about their forced fight, a slick Sanji is nice but sometimes when your back is to the wall, you can't just Professor Layton your way out of a situation.
He "knows" better than to expect Luffy to back-down. But despite this, he felt his only solution, was to push Luffy away, for his own safety. Mainly because he's in an impossible situation and can only see this playing out in one way. Therefore, I'd say the gravity of the situation is making him ignore what he knows to be true - "Luffy won't stop at anything".
You can see it when he's pacing around and hopes Luffy doesn't do anything stupid. Because he knows they are!
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What has Capone done besides attempting to kill Pekoms… twice? An action condoned by the other members of the Big Mom Pirates, mind you. You just can't compare that to Big Mom actively racketeering and destroying entire kingdoms.
Also, what is the basis for her changing her personality? If we're gonna go that route, then I could apply the same logic for Capone, especially with him showing more care to his family in a single scene than Big Mom has ever did in the entire arc. There's a reason Chiffon and Praline are switching sides.
No offense to those who support Big Mom as an ally... but I just find ridiculous the notion that Big Mom is being built up as a victim, when the entire reason this plot is happening is because of her. She started this shit. If it weren't for her, Judge wouldn't go after Sanji, Capone wouldn't go after Sanji, Luffy wouldn't go after Sanji...
Oh, and let's not forget the kind of people that Luffy opposes the most and ends up fighting anyway. Those who restrict the freedom of his friends. Guess what Big Mom has been doing this entire arc to Sanji, Jinbe, Pudding... I'm actually fully expecting Pudding to be the catalyst to give Luffy resolve to put her at the top of his list.
Okay, I think I'm finally getting why you're talking about Bege trying to kill Pekoms. Yes, I agree that his actions are not as bad as Big Mom's crimes. However, the difference is that Big Mom is characterized with negative, ambivalent, and positive traits. Making some type of truce/redemption possible for her because literally every single arc antagonist up to this point in the scope of those arcs where they were villains have completely irredeemable traits. Oda spares no expense in making us hate them through and through. Which is why Big Mom's mixed characterization on that front is so weird and a likely indication that the Vinsmokes and Bege will take over as the main arc antagonists.
Meanwhile, Bege in comparison has little to no redeemable traits. In fact's let's look at his history. Being disgusted by Bonney eating like a pig in a restaurant. Stabbing a minion who warned him not pick fights with other Supernovas. Skipping town after hearing the Marines were around. Almost getting sucked into a mini-Moon of some sort. Coming back post-timeskip to attack the Swirly Hat Pirates. Arriving on Zou to demand Caesar. Shooting Pekoms in the back when he wanted to cover for Sanji for saving the Minks. Blackmailing Sanji into the wedding by saying that heads from the Baratie and Kamabakka will roll if he refuses. Lying to Nekomamushi and running away. And finally showing up in Totland by shooting Pekoms, claiming that emotional attacments are weaknesses in piracy, planning a coup against Big Mom, and hypocritically praising the hopes in his heir making funny faces to get his kid to stop crying.
So now I ask. So now I ask. Do you see even a SINGLE positive trait in Bege's personality and history? Because the only one I can see is Bege caring about his son in a hypocritical fashion that will most likely result in some sort of comeuppance. Like I said before, yes, Capone has not committed misdeeds as bad as Big Mom. But in terms of his traits are lined up for interpretation by the readers? He has literally nothing going for him being a tolerable character compared to how mixed Big Mom is on ethical/personality levels.
And I could actually highlight a scene of Big Mon valuing her family qith scans if both her talking about her dream if eating eye-eye with them and telling her children not to fight and how they should all get along. But unfortunately, I've been typing these replies on my phone due to being away from home. She still had messed up traits of forcing daughters into political marriages, kicking ex-husbands to the curb, and wanting to kill children like Lola who ruin huge power plays for her. I am not justifying those actions, they need to be quelled. But those two incidents I mentioned and more highlight how she has the capability to change once she has reason to feel grateful to the Straw Hats and see how corrupt the Vinsmokes and Capone are with their inevitable coups. And apparently switching sides towards those who dissent towards Big Mom automatically means they're siding with charismatic altruistic. I find that logic a bit shaky for obvious reasons, especially when this arc has multiple villainous factions. Capone could change later down the story or maybe even at the endgame of it if his kid gets in danger akin to Crocodile. But so far, we have less reason to expect redemption compared to Linlin.
When have I bern building her up as a victim lol? You don't have to be a "victim" to renounce your ways for the better. Although she is a victim of an illness. Which I expect Chopper to cure, and Sanji to help as the cook and this illness being related to cravings. And I don't see Oda having an irredeemable villain get cured of an illness and not somehow be grateful/change ethically. And she may have been a victim of Giant prejudice or whatever her hatred of them stems fron lol. But do not misunderstand me. Those future instances will not justify her corrupt actions in the SLIGHTEST. She needs to hurt in some way, and she needs a rude awakening. It's just that a physical defeat like other arc antagonists is needed for that. Especially when the Vinsmokes (minus Reiju) are much more downright hateable without any poitive traits. Bellamy got his ass kicked and saw the light of what he did wrong. So why can't Linlin do the same, especially when unlike Bellamy's Jaya presence, she is actually a mixed bag of potential redeemability already? And before you bring it up, no. I am not equating Bellamy's actions of scting like an ignorant bully to how horrific Big Mom's are, just the overall dynamic of learning a lesson after getting defeated in one way or another.
You shouldn't forget the types of people Luffy tends to tolerate and forgive after their crimes are stppped. Such as Robin the assassin who's first appearance was attempting to kill Vivi's undercover attendant. Bellamy, the scum who trashed Luffy and Zoro for their opinions, ridiculed the idea of dreams. and beat up Cricket for his gold. Duval, former slave capturer. The Franky Family, who mugged Usopp and beat him up twice as well as their leader fighting Luffy. And so on. I know that their misdeeds are not as huge as Big Mom's. But honestly, I find it hard to not see how Luffy's relationship with Big Mom isn't just the Straw Hat Pirates Meet The Franky Family bumped up several notches in regards to stakes and corruption.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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But Luffy already was at the battle of Marineford. Where was Kizaru when he was 17 years old? how old are Big Mom, and Kaido? haven't they been pirates for decades? stuck as Yonkos for decades, too?
That's right. A decade of a pirate life compared to 2 years or so. They obviously have way more experience in combat. Bege and Urouge are already over 40s and still considered Rookies like Luffy, Law etc…
I mean, how could Luffy and Roger even be compared to those people? Roger became Pirate King in three years! and Luffy won't lose to him in that regard.
Nope. Roger started his pirate life about 50 years ago and just became PK about 26 years ago. Almost 25 years later.
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It'd be on chapter 850+! how's that too soon for anything?
Yeah, and the story is probably going to continue for 300+ more chapters.
At this point in the story, having only just really seen Big Mom for the first time, and a whole lot of mileage left in her character/actions. it's too soon for her to be defeated.
is there anything more One Piece than Luffy coming and telling everybody (in the most casual way ever) that he kicked Big Mom's butt, while they all go crazy about it?
Him doing that after defeating her at a logical point in the story?
Now that would be classic One Piece.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Roger became Pirate King in three years!
…I think you should brush up on your lore concerning ol' Roger, buddy.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Considering that she would probably blame Luffy for causing said situation in the first place I would say the latter. I mean if she sent an army after Urogue for taking out a commander, what's she going to do to the guy that has been continually challenging her power and screwed up the second most important alliance she's ever made.
She might send someone after him, but she herself would be preoccupied with trying to save the alliance.
Would Pudding leaving/dying really affect the wedding? I don't think Judge particularly cares who Sanji marries and I don't think BM does either. Sure Sanji might become even more miserable and heartbroken, but it's not like his situation changes much. Zeff is still under threat and BM may order him killed the moment Sanji leaves. Oh and let's not forget about his exploding bracelets.
Well, yeah.
Big Mom hates Lola for running out and ruining one of her tactical weddings.
If it were that easy to fix this kind of arrangement then Big Mom's inability to fix Lola's proposed marriage and subsequent anger would make no sense.
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Brook now also has something alike to Ashura.. Cool stuff.
Also Pedro using speed and bombs was quite something. I hope that he and Tamago will get short proper fight of sorts and it ends with a draw and includes small flashback to their past. I wonder if Pedro took Tamagos eye.
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@Count:
Okay, I think I'm finally getting why you're talking about Bege trying to kill Pekoms. Yes, I agree that his actions are not as bad as Big Mom's crimes. However, the difference is that Big Mom is characterized with negative, ambivalent, and positive traits. Making some type of truce/redemption possible for her because literally every single arc antagonist up to this point in the scope of those arcs where they were villains have completely irredeemable traits. Oda spares no expense in making us hate them through and through. Which is why Big Mom's mixed characterization on that front is so weird and a likely indication that the Vinsmokes and Bege will take over as the main arc antagonists.
Meanwhile, Bege in comparison has little to no redeemable traits. In fact's let's look at his history. Being disgusted by Bonney eating like a pig in a restaurant. Stabbing a minion who warned him not pick fights with other Supernovas. Skipping town after hearing the Marines were around. Almost getting sucked into a mini-Moon of some sort. Coming back post-timeskip to attack the Swirly Hat Pirates. Arriving on Zou to demand Caesar. Shooting Pekoms in the back when he wanted to cover for Sanji for saving the Minks. Blackmailing Sanji into the wedding by saying that heads from the Baratie and Kamabakka will roll if he refuses. Lying to Nekomamushi and running away. And finally showing up in Totland by shooting Pekoms, claiming that emotional attacments are weaknesses in piracy, planning a coup against Big Mom, and hypocritically praising the hopes in his heir making funny faces to get his kid to stop crying.
So now I ask. So now I ask. Do you see even a SINGLE positive trait in Bege's personality and history? Because the only one I can see is Bege caring about his son in a hypocritical fashion that will most likely result in some sort of comeuppance. Like I said before, yes, Capone has not committed misdeeds as bad as Big Mom. But in terms of his traits are lined up for interpretation by the readers? He has literally nothing going for him being a tolerable character compared to how mixed Big Mom is on ethical/personality levels.
And I could actually highlight a scene of Big Mon valuing her family qith scans if both her talking about her dream if eating eye-eye with them and telling her children not to fight and how they should all get along. But unfortunately, I've been typing these replies on my phone due to being away from home. She still had messed up traits of forcing daughters into political marriages, kicking ex-husbands to the curb, and wanting to kill children like Lola who ruin huge power plays for her. I am not justifying those actions, they need to be quelled. But those two incidents I mentioned and more highlight how she has the capability to change once she has reason to feel grateful to the Straw Hats and see how corrupt the Vinsmokes and Capone are with their inevitable coups. And apparently switching sides towards those who dissent towards Big Mom automatically means they're siding with charismatic altruistic. I find that logic a bit shaky for obvious reasons, especially when this arc has multiple villainous factions. Capone could change later down the story or maybe even at the endgame of it if his kid gets in danger akin to Crocodile. But so far, we have less reason to expect redemption compared to Linlin.
When have I bern building her up as a victim lol? You don't have to be a "victim" to renounce your ways for the better. Although she is a victim of an illness. Which I expect Chopper to cure, and Sanji to help as the cook and this illness being related to cravings. And I don't see Oda having an irredeemable villain get cured of an illness and not somehow be grateful/change ethically. And she may have been a victim of Giant prejudice or whatever her hatred of them stems fron lol. But do not misunderstand me. Those future instances will not justify her corrupt actions in the SLIGHTEST. She needs to hurt in some way, and she needs a rude awakening. It's just that a physical defeat like other arc antagonists is needed for that. Especially when the Vinsmokes (minus Reiju) are much more downright hateable without any poitive traits. Bellamy got his ass kicked and saw the light of what he did wrong. So why can't Linlin do the same, especially when unlike Bellamy's Jaya presence, she is actually a mixed bag of potential redeemability already? And before you bring it up, no. I am not equating Bellamy's actions of scting like an ignorant bully to how horrific Big Mom's are, just the overall dynamic of learning a lesson after getting defeated in one way or another.
You shouldn't forget the types of people Luffy tends to tolerate and forgive after their crimes are stppped. Such as Robin the assassin who's first appearance was attempting to kill Vivi's undercover attendant. Bellamy, the scum who trashed Luffy and Zoro for their opinions, ridiculed the idea of dreams. and beat up Cricket for his gold. Duval, former slave capturer. The Franky Family, who mugged Usopp and beat him up twice as well as their leader fighting Luffy. And so on. I know that their misdeeds are not as huge as Big Mom's. But honestly, I find it hard to not see how Luffy's relationship with Big Mom isn't just the Straw Hat Pirates Meet The Franky Family bumped up several notches in regards to stakes and corruption.
Wait, wait, wait, you say Capone is hypocritical, but not Big Mom?
"Sure, Jinbe. You can leave! Pirates are supposed to be free, but you'll have to give a body part in return! Mamamama…"
"All I want is to have a diverse family... except Giants. I hate them! Mamamama..."
"I love my family, as long as they do everything I say. Otherwise, off with their heads! Mamamamama..."
"Family is important, as long as they share you blood. Off with those husbands! Mamamamama..."And yes, you cannot compare the Franky Family with the Big Mom Pirates. They're a persecuted group of troublemakers that failed to achieve their dreams and did nothing but hunt pirates (not a bad thing) and dismantle pirate ships, which they did for money anyway. They didn't burn kingdoms to the ground.
Also, I doubt the sickness bothers Big Mom that much. Hell, she doesn't even appear to be aware of it. I also feel that using the illness as an excuse to justify her actions doesn't work exactly because she's not bothered by it, thus she doesn't search for treatment.
If Big Mom is supposed to be hurt, then it has to be in an epic way. To the point that if Capone tried to betray her, I would root for him instead, because he's the underdog here and just doing what everybody in the Worst Generation is trying to do. I mean, look at Kid. Dude crucifies weaklings. And yet, you can bet Oda will want us to root for him against Kaidou, Wano conquerer, murderer of dads and literal monster.
By the way, if Capone was being written to be a major villain, he would've been more focused. So far, the stuff he has done has been very tame in comparison to Big Mom, even counting the "positive" traits. You're unfairly comparing a character that's been getting a bunch of development to one that's been acting on the shadows and that we still know very little about. Capone's subordinates also do not seem that bad: Vito is a fan of Sanji, Gotti defends Vito from being insulted, Chiffon cares about her family. What an irredeemable antagonist group.
Capone also lacks the same threat level. He ran away from Nekomamushi, and is not that much of a fighter himself, with a lower bounty than Luffy's. He would definitely be a step down from Big Mom in that sense.
Plus, being one of the Supernovas, I believe Capone is more likely to become an ally of Luffy than Big Mom. It does appear that Oda is setting the group as allying rivals.
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Very very bad story development in my opinion.
Brooks fight and strength feels forced. What is this a coincidence with both he and BM use souls?
Sanji is no use at all. This guy dissapoints me very much.
Luffy and Nami, pathetic.
And now all get rescued by little Pudding? Way too easy, boring and foreseeable that solution for such a complicated situation. -
@dwo:
Brooks fight and strength feels forced. What is this a coincidence with both he and BM use souls?
Oh gee, look at that electric God wannabe. He has no chance against our rubber hero. What a bad story development.
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@dwo:
Very very bad story development in my opinion.
Brooks fight and strength feels forced. What is this a coincidence with both he and BM use souls?
Sanji is no use at all. This guy dissapoints me very much.
Luffy and Nami, pathetic.
And now all get rescued by little Pudding? Way too easy, boring and foreseeable that solution for such a complicated situation.But they didn't get rescued by little Pudding. Everyone is still trapped.
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Narratively, Luffy beating Big Mom right now doesn't work. Not when Kaidou is the one being set up as a big true threat that will require armies, and not when only half the crew is here.
She may end up an ally, or beaten by a third party, or Luffy gets the poneglyph and sanji and manages to get away, or this arc bleeds over into the Wana arc… but its just too soon for a full blown Yonkou defeat. (Yes, 20 years into the series is too soon, when there's another 10 to go) That would lessen the impact of Kaidou, who is being treated as a big scary monster that everyone is afraid of, while Big Mom is being treated as likeable and reasonable but easily roused.
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How many chapters will toothless Luffy last? Any bets?
The rest of the series.
Luffy becomes Blackbeard through timey wimey shenanigans because bullshit. You heard it here first. I bet your life on it. -
Narratively, Luffy beating Big Mom right now doesn't work. Not when Kaidou is the one being set up as a big true threat that will require armies, and not when only half the crew is here.
She may end up an ally, or beaten by a third party, or Luffy gets the poneglyph and sanji and manages to get away, or this arc bleeds over into the Wana arc… but its just too soon for a full blown Yonkou defeat. (Yes, 20 years into the series is too soon, when there's another 10 to go) That would lessen the impact of Kaidou, who is being treated as a big scary monster that everyone is afraid of, while Big Mom is being treated as likeable and reasonable but easily roused.
Hey now, Kaidou does seem to have traits that humanize him, like getting piss drunk and moody. Plus, leaving Urouge alone.
He also went through a lot of shit, even if he's immortal. Doesn't change the fact that he's a monster.
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Wait, wait, wait, you say Capone is hypocritical, but not Big Mom?
"Sure, Jinbe. You can leave! Pirates are supposed to be free, but you'll have to give a body part in return! Mamamama…"
"All I want is to have a diverse family... except Giants. I hate them! Mamamama..."
"I love my family, as long as they do everything I say. Otherwise, off with their heads! Mamamamama..."
"Family is important, as long as they share you blood. Off with those husbands! Mamamamama..."And yes, you cannot compare the Franky Family with the Big Mom Pirates. They're a persecuted group of troublemakers that failed to achieve their dreams and did nothing but hunt pirates (not a bad thing) and dismantle pirate ships, which they did for money anyway.
Also, I doubt the sickness bothers Big Mom that much. Hell, she doesn't even appear to be aware of it. I also feel that using the illness as an excuse to justify her actions doesn't work exactly because she's not bothered by it, thus she doesn't search for treatment.
By the way, if Capone was being written to be a major villain, he would've been more focused. So far, the stuff he has done has been very tame in comparison to Big Mom, even counting the "positive" traits. You're unfairly comparing a character that's been getting a bunch of development to one that's been acting on the shadows and that we still know very little about. Capone's subordinates also do not seem that bad: Vito is a fan of Sanji, Gotti defends Vito from bad-mouthing, Chiffon cares about her family. What an irredeemable antagonist group.
Capone also lacks the same threat level. He ran away from Nekomamushi, and is not that much of a fighter himself, with a lower bounty than Luffy's. He would definitely be a step down from Big Mom in that sense.
Plus, being one of the Supernovas, I believe Capone is more likely to become an ally of Luffy than Big Mom, who does appear to view them all as worthy rivals.
Why do you keep picking apart bits of what I'm saying and think that it doesn't translate to another character in the discussion? Of course Big Mom is also a hypocrite. With redeeming qualities. However, Bege is a hypocrite with no redeeming qualities. Or maybe just one minor positive trait. Stop cherry picking these bits and pieces of my argument to make red herring fallacies that get away from the main points I'm trying to focus on rather than listing my factors as my main reasons. I make an argument about how Bege is a near-irredeemable character we're supposed to hate while listing his hypocrisy as one factor compared to Big Mom being a mix bag of ethics and redeemability, and somehow you want to take that single factor about hypocrisy I mentioned as the whole premise and point of my argument. This is how I know you're grasping at straws with your argument.
I literally said that the Franky Family does not compare to Big Mom when it comes to misdeeds. I was talking about the overall dynamic of being off on the wrong foot and being criminals only to end up teaming up with the protagonists and coming to a proper understanding of each other, and changing for the better. You're the one who is superficially distinguishing how similar their dynamics are by only acknowledging the stakes being much higher with Big Mom, which is to be expected at this point in the story when Oda has to keep upping the ante. You keep judging merely by the exact diegetic story circumstances and fail to understand the logic that Oda adheres to when writing overall situation/character dynamics like the tension between the Franky Family and Straw Hat Pirates. Look under the seams of how Oda writes and detect the patterns that flow to form his consistency when writing his story and characters.
I noticed how you also criticized Capone's threat level even all the way back in the spoiler thread. And yet you ignore how both Greg and I always pair him up with the Vinsmokes whenever we say that they will take over as the main antagonists. Together. In a similar dynamic as Spandam and CP9. The fact that Luffy has been so inhibited and weakened this arc is a great plus for them being the main threats instead of somebody as powerful as a Yonko Commander, nonetheless Big Mom. Also, there are other external ways for villains to become threats without having to be super-powerful.
Please point out where I mention Big Mom's illness as a justification of her actions? No, seriously, I'm tired of you playing this game of straw man fallacies by saying that her negative actions are justified just because she's sick. I'm not justifying those misdeeds in the slightest. I am merely bringing up her illness as a means of being grateful to the Straw Hats. I'm saying that she can CHANGE. What is so hard to understand about this? Also, just because she is unaware of an illness that can potentially destroy her entire kingdom, including all of her family and focus, means that it can't bother her? Especially when she is likely unaware due to Jimbei and her kids lying about the causes of her rampages and hiding the bodies? C'mon lol.
Until Capone gets his ass beat and/or begs the Straw Hats to help him save his son, Luffy is not going to team-up with someone who tried to backstab their compassionate crewmate. Especially when Sanji and Brook took offense to that. And ESPECIALLY when he's already become friends with the person Bege has been trying to kill.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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I just finished reading the chapter. Didn't see the spoilers this time. Brook looks really awesome! I'm so hyped about him. Pedro is ok, I guess. But he got some zorro-like slash going on. Smoothie looks like a long-limb hybrid human that was mentioned a chapter ago. I guess it is her father that is trapped in the book, hehe. Sanji is back to being lovestuck, which is kinda nice because he's been gloomy lately. He's still a fucking idiot though.
That ending though, Pudding shocked both Nami and Luffy. It seems like she's about to do a Lola. It makes sense but she's been so suspicious some chapters before that I can't outright believe it.
I mean, Pudding could just have whispered something like a "Fooled ya!" and some details about her facade. It will still illicit the same reaction. Her saying "I'm going to escape Big Mom and get married on my own" is too obvious for it to be muted out in that scene.
Some long-term predictions: Vegapunk with Paw-Paw fruit for Nakama!!! Kaidou is gonna be killed by Blackbeard and get his strongest Zoan DF!!!
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Hey now, Kaidou does seem to have traits that humanize him, like getting piss drunk and moody. Plus, leaving Urouge alone.
He also went through a lot of shit, even if he's immortal. Doesn't change the fact that he's a monster.
Kaidou is the one that decimated Moria and killed his entire crew, went to fight Whitebeard, conquered Wano, had minions terrorize Zou, destroyed a supernova, and that Law and Doflamingo are terrified of and will need an army to fight.
Big Mom… has been paid protector of an island and has associates like Lola and Pekoms we can get along with and see as genuinely good people and is being dealt with with only half the crew while other villains are in her arc.
They're both being shown with positives and negatives... but Kaidou was and has been portrayed as a big unstoppable scary monster of death. Big Mom has been treated as a semi-reasonable but scary businesswoman. No one wants to cross either of them, but... It's two very different approaches and handlings.
And, the sheer idea of Luffy beating any Yonkou at this point, will make it that much more credible and "easy" for him to take the next. When we know he's not going to really fight Shanks, and that Blackbeard is last, he can't beat 1 of the 3 big threats in a short arc like this one will be. Kaidou and Big Mom need to be dealt with at about the same time, and possibly finished by BB to up his threat scale when the time comes.
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@dwo:
Very very bad story development in my opinion.
Brooks fight and strength feels forced. What is this a coincidence with both he and BM use souls?Oda is prone to matching up opposing/similar powers, because it's fun
Sanji is no use at all. This guy dissapoints me very much.
It's the Sanji retrieval arc for a reason
Luffy and Nami, pathetic.
Yeah, it's just too bad they're human and have limits to their strength
And now all get rescued by little Pudding? Way too easy, boring and foreseeable that solution for such a complicated situation.
Pudding's plan seems more likely than not to get at least her in trouble.
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@Count:
Why do you keep picking apart bits of what I'm saying and think that it doesn't translate to another character in the discussion? Of course Big Mom is also a hypocrite. With redeeming qualities. However, Bege is a hypocrite with no redeeming qualities. Or maybe just one minor positive trait. Stop cherry picking these bits and pieces of my argument to make red herring fallacies that get away from the main points I'm trying to focus on rather than listing my factors as my main reasons. I make an argument about how Bege is a near-irredeemable character we're supposed to hate while listing his hypocrisy as one factor compared to Big Mom being a mix bag of ethics and redeemability, and somehow you want to take that single factor about hypocrisy I mentioned as the whole premise and point of my argument. This is how I know you're grasping at straws with your argument.
I literally said that the Franky Family does not compare to Big Mom when it comes to misdeeds. I was talking about the overall dynamic of being off on the wrong foot and being criminals only to end up teaming up with the protagonists and coming to a proper understanding of each other, and changing for the better. You're the one who is superficially distinguishing how similar their dynamics are by only acknowledging the stakes being much higher with Big Mom, which is to be expected at this point in the story when Oda has to keep upping the ante. You keep judging merely by the exact diegetic story circumstances and fail to understand the logic that Oda adheres to when writing overall situation/character dynamics like the tension between the Franky Family and Straw Hat Pirates. Look under the seams of how Oda writes and detect the patterns that flow to form his consistency when writing his story and characters.
I noticed how you also criticized Capone's threat level even all the way back in the spoiler thread. And yet you ignore how both Greg and I always pair him up with the Vinsmokes whenever we say that they will take over as the main antagonists. Together. In a similar dynamic as Spandam and CP9. The fact that Luffy has been so inhibited and weakened this arc is a great plus for them being the main threats instead of somebody as powerful as a Yonko Commander, nonetheless Big Mom. Also, there are other external ways for villains to become threats without having to be super-powerful.
Please point out where I mention Big Mom's illness as a justification of her actions? No, seriously, I'm tired of you playing this game of straw man fallacies by saying that her negative actions are justified just because she's sick. I'm not justifying those misdeeds in the slightest. I am merely bringing up her illness as a means of being grateful to the Straw Hats. I'm saying that she can CHANGE. What is so hard to understand about this? Also, just because she is unaware of an illness that can potentially destroy her entire kingdom, including all of her family and focus, means that it can't bother her? Especially when she is likely unaware due to Jimbei and her kids lying about the causes of her rampages and hiding the bodies? C'mon lol.
Until Capone gets his ass beat and/or begs the Straw Hats to help him save his son, Luffy is not going to team-up with someone who tried to backstab their compassionate crewmate. Especially when Sanji and Brook took offense to that. And ESPECIALLY when he's already become friends with the person Bege has been trying to kill.
I'll keep this simple and as short as I can.
I do not see Big Mom's redeeming qualities as actually redeeming. Her "positive" traits have been consistently twisted all the time. It's similar to Doula Mongo.
Lola says that Big Mom will help them… Big Mom yells at their face that she wants Lola killed.
Big Mom wants to create a diverse utopia... but leaves out Giants. Regardless of reason, this shots down the idea that she's not racist.
Her rare beast collection... is constantly suffering and pleading for help.
Big Mom protects Fishman Island... through extortion. She does this with several islands... and burns them down if they don't comply.
Big Mom loves her family... but doesn't care for the husbands, because they don't share their blood.
Her decisions have been causing a lot of grief to Sanji, Jinbe and Pudding, all Luffy's friends.Capone, meanwhile, attempted to kill the same person twice. If I am supposed to root against him, then Oda is not doing a good job. Even with Capone not receiving positive traits, Big Mom is still clearly the bigger evil here due to the above-mentioned shit I've listed.
Hopefully, you will be able to understand why I don't share the belief that she's getting redeemed (at least, in this arc). I didn't want to come off as harsh and even wrote so in my previous posts that you quoted.
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It's surprising how the lack of replies commenting about the kid acting like bancho, adding him, the number of Big Mom's crazy children keep increasing.
I'm kinda disappointed with Sanji, even if he doesn't want to hurt Pudding, he shouldn't be totally accepting it and going with it, maybe because I believe that One Piece should stay as a romance-free series, but who knows what Oda is planning.
Nothing else caught my eye that hasn't been already discussed here.https://twitter.com/brain_yz 
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"Sure, Jinbe. You can leave! Pirates are supposed to be free, but you'll have to give a body part in return! Mamamama…"
"All I want is to have a diverse family... except Giants. I hate them! Mamamama..."
"I love my family, as long as they do everything I say. Otherwise, off with their heads! Mamamamama..."
"Family is important, as long as they share you blood. Off with those husbands! Mamamamama..."Can i use this quote as my sig?
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I'll keep this simple and as short as I can.
I do not see Big Mom's redeeming qualities as actually redeeming. Her "positive" traits have been consistently twisted all the time. It's similar to Doula Mongo.
Lola says that Big Mom will help them… Big Mom yells at their face that she wants Lola killed.
Big Mom wants to create a diverse utopia... but leaves out Giants. Regardless of reason, this shots down the idea that she's not racist.
Her rare beast collection... is constantly suffering and pleading for help.
Big Mom protects Fishman Island... through extortion. She does this with several islands... and burns them down if they don't comply.
Big Mom loves her family... but doesn't care for the husbands, because they don't share their blood.
Her decisions have been causing a lot of grief to Sanji, Jinbe and Pudding, all Luffy's friends.Capone, meanwhile, attempted to kill the same person twice. If I am supposed to root against him, then Oda is not doing a good job. Even with Capone not receiving positive traits, Big Mom is still clearly the bigger evil here due to the above-mentioned shit I've listed.
Hopefully, you will be able to understand why I don't share the belief that she's getting redeemed (at least, in this arc). I didn't want to come off as harsh and even wrote so in my previous posts that you quoted.
I think the issue that has been prolonging this argument is that you believe that I'm trying to treat Big Mom's traits like a scoreboard. As if Big Mom's racial utopia cancels out how she destroys territories who fail to play months tributes, for an example. I don't mean to express that opinion at all, and I've been trying to highlight that in my previous posts. She's still a bad person. I just highlight those seemingly positive attributes, not because they cancel out her bad traits and her character can be left untouched, but because they show that she may be capable of reforming herself by choosing not to go along with her messed up power/family antics. That's really it. I actually agree about how every single point you made about how corrupt she is needs to change.
It's just that I think Big Mom has the chance to actually change it herself upon being knocked down a peg from the Vinsmoke/Bege coups and going on another rampage presumably after the Fishman Island bomb destroys the wedding cake (which is what her illness will make her crave) that is stopped by the Straw Hats curing her illness. Has she committed worse acts than previous arc antagonists and morally shady people Luffy has helped redeem? Of course, there's no disputing that. But I just want to draw attention to the fact that because you are able to highlight her redeeming qualities are even arguably twisted, she is differently characterized by oda compared to every other arc antagonist we can see and automatically say "Yeah, that's an evil person who needs to go to the slammer. No room for debate as to whether they can become a good person, have ever done a positive thing in their lives, or listen to the pleas/thoughts of other characters. I see no evidence of that." Notice that somewhat subtle, but significant dichotomy in how they are characterized and interpreted by fans.
That's all I'm trying to say. And I understand how Capone doesn't seem like the main guy you're supposed to hate. I totally get how he has little focus. But you keep only focusing on Capone when I keep grouping up his coup and main arc antagonist role with the Vinsmokes. Who I think that you could agree with me on being absolutely loathsome characters and will be the main antagonist focus while Capone's more of a sideshow, but still taking over villain duties from Big Mom.
I hope that I didn't seem too harsh with my own argument. I just call out faulty logic when I see it, and I count on experienced members like you to call me out on those things as well when it happens. You're giving honest thoughts, and that's all I ask from everybody on this forum. I just don't think that you are properly acknowledging the whole scope of my argument, such as only talking about how I think Bege will take over being the main arc antagonist when I keep saying that he will do this WITH the Vinsmokes, who if anything will be more significant baddies than Bege himself. Or how I am not denying that Big Mom is a bad person, but just highlighting how her personality and twisted ethics actually have some potential capacity to be convinced that she should no longer continue being such an immoral ruler/parent/captain.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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Narratively, Luffy beating Big Mom right now doesn't work. Not when Kaidou is the one being set up as a big true threat that will require armies, and not when only half the crew is here.
She may end up an ally, or beaten by a third party, or Luffy gets the poneglyph and sanji and manages to get away, or this arc bleeds over into the Wana arc… but its just too soon for a full blown Yonkou defeat. (Yes, 20 years into the series is too soon, when there's another 10 to go) That would lessen the impact of Kaidou, who is being treated as a big scary monster that everyone is afraid of, while Big Mom is being treated as likeable and reasonable but easily roused.
Considering you got 4 yonkous and they are not even the final thing( not all at least), considering you have pirate king and raftel, revolutionaries, vegapunk, return to fishman island, reverie, weevil and marco, final war, some other islands like elbaf that may not be related to yonkous at all, I say 10 years is not much. Also considering Oda is not know for fast pace( well, not after the time skip, breaks, 100+ chapters island like dressrosa).
It was said we are at 70% in the story.
And while luffy has half of the crew with him, the 3 minks and jimbei alone complete the crew and make it stronger then the full SHs crew.
Besides, the other half just got dressrosa for them, need to leave place for other characters too.
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Luffy won't be beating Shanks which leaves the other three. And i don't see Oda having Luffy beat all three of them. Maybe Luffy will get close to beating Kaidou, but then BB might show up, and finish him.
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Smoothie looks like a long-limb hybrid human that was mentioned a chapter ago.
Her hands look normal. Not sure where the hybrid part should be.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Luffy won't be beating Shanks which leaves the other three. And i don't see Oda having Luffy beat all three of them. Maybe Luffy will get close to beating Kaidou, but then BB might show up, and finish him.
2 should be enough. Don't see Blackbeard KSing Luffy for Kaido's head.
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2 should be enough. Don't see Blackbeard KSing Luffy for Kaido's head.
Kaidou, and BB seems to be my best bet.
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i still think something is fishy about pudding, oda trying too hard to make her so nice.
as for sanji hes acting like a girl getting married he should be serious atm , if it was zoro he wont act like this.
overall good chapter glad there is no break next week.Well, it isn't Zoro.
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I guess that hat of Big Mom can spy through denden mushi signals. That's neat.
Her hands look normal. Not sure where the hybrid part should be.
You should maybe take a closer look again. Besides having abnormally big hands, her gloves looks suspicious on the elbow joint.
Some long-term predictions: Vegapunk with Paw-Paw fruit for Nakama!!! Kaidou is gonna be killed by Blackbeard and get his strongest Zoan DF!!!
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It's surprising how the lack of replies commenting about the kid acting like bancho, adding him, the number of Big Mom's crazy children keep increasing.
I'm kinda disappointed with Sanji, even if he doesn't want to hurt Pudding, he shouldn't be totally accepting it and going with it, maybe because I believe that One Piece should stay as a romance-free series, but who knows what Oda is planning.
Nothing else caught my eye that hasn't been already discussed here.sanji at the moment can do nothing other than go along with the marriage
- if it does something,luffy and the rest of the crew will be hurt
- if he believes luffy can defend himself against a yonkou, then they are going for zeff,which is both way weaker than luffy and so far away that they can do nothing to protect him, and even if they somehow manage to contact him, his only choice would be to hide,losing the baratie and having his life ruined by constantly having to hide from hitmen
- if he somehow decides to be an heartless bastard that doesn't care about the only father figure he ever got, the bracelets on his wrists are going to blow up, damaging his hands and making impossible for him to cook anything for the rest of his life
now i ask you..what can sanji do other than going along with everything and just hope that by doing so no one of the people he cares for the most get hurt?
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What I wonder about Big Mom is, if she's so into arranged marriages, why doesn't she go fully into it and start having her kids get into polygamous marriages? Instead of having to pump out a new kid every time she needs to set up a new marriage.
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What I wonder about Big Mom is, if she's so into arranged marriages, why doesn't she go fully into it and start having her kids get into polygamous marriages? Instead of having to pump out a new kid every time she needs to set up a new marriage.
Polygamy is usually a husband with multiple wives, not a wife with multiple husbands, so it would only be more likely to work one way, and even then may not work. External parties, especially high ranking and powerful ones, would probably not be thrilled about marrying someone who already has a husband.
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I don't think it would matter, as being under a Yonkou's wing is that good of a deal on itself, and if Big Mom wanted, it's not like she couldn't twist it around to have her daughters have multiple husbands too.
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You should maybe take a closer look again. Besides having abnormally big hands, her gloves looks suspicious on the elbow joint.
It's possible. It's really hard to tell considering Oda's complete disregard towards normal body proportions. From this chapter alone, that is.
2 chapters back her hands look more like normal hands and less double elbowed.
But, again, I won't say it's not possible.
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So, between this thread and my own thoughts, I have four ideas on what Pudding might be up to.
1. Committing suicide (would be most obvious given Luffy & Nami's horrified reactions)
2. Running away (effectively the same as suicide, which Luffy & Nami know)
3. Telling Big Mom she won't marry Sanji (also effectively suicide)
4. Telling Big Mom she wants to marry one of the other Vinsmoke sons. (effectively doing what Sanji's doing)Also a though that occured to me, if Pudding refuses the marriage for one reason or another, what's stopping Big Mom from replacing her with another daughter? From that, I think Big Mom doesn't have any other single daughters of marriageable age. The rest are either too young or too married. Wonder if she has a marriageable son for Reiju? Either way, if Pudding goes route #4, Judge will not be pleased, since he went for Sanji explicitly because he's the least important to him.
Waldorf: You know Statler, after watching the last one thousand episodes of One Piece, I think I've come to a conclusion.
Statler: No you haven't.
Both: DOHOHOHOHOHO!
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Lol, doesn't have faith in the crew. Luffy got his ass kicked and is captured, i would say not having faith in him defeating a yonkou was the right call. Sanji knows how strong the crew is, and how strong zeff is. If he believes they can't win, then they can't win. Escaping is the only option but that will get atleast zeff killed.
So areyou saying Sanji will stay and Luffy die of starvation ? No of course not. Something will happen and it is not just them escaping since as you said that would mean Zeff death.
Luffy will win in the end, it has been said last chapter. -
Good chapter. The action bit with Pedro was cool, and Brook's scene was the highlight. Too bad it was too short for my tastes; I would've added an extra Pedro-doing-stuff page and an extra Brook-doing-stuff page.
That said, the Sanji monologue was cool. For once I'm thinking his pervert face was more of a defense mechanism than a real pervert face. The man's going through hell and he's just clinging to Pudding.
And the ending was definitely a very intriguing cliffhanger.
Extra point for the book marker thingie. This book power is just overall very cool.
Now, if during the next weeks we can see more Brook stuff and more Pedro stuff, I'll be super happy.
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What if Pudding plans to defeat Big Mum all by herself?
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What if Pudding plans to defeat Big Mum all by herself?
Barring the reveal of fighting prowess that hasn't do much as been hinted at, I doubt it
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nice chapter, good to see Pedro and Brook getting some action, especially Brook, but now he will probably face smoothie, i expect a half comedic / half serious battle especially because she has orders to not kill him
in sanji's scene, it looks like he went back to his perverted self, but honestly it really sounds like he was forcing it, it is kinda strange because it was like he was making a parody out of himself lol, "go to your usual self" "a cook in love" lol
the ending scene is intriguing but to think about suicide it is kinda forced to me… like c'mon there was no build up for a suicidal thought, and it just sounds too harsh even for Oda, like some people said here, she might be thinking about leaving, and Luffy and Nami knowing about the consequences of said action, they acted horrified, but still... it is hard to know, thank god there is no breaks
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@Count:
I think the issue that has been prolonging this argument is that you believe that I'm trying to treat Big Mom's traits like a scoreboard. As if Big Mom's racial utopia cancels out how she destroys territories who fail to play months tributes, for an example. I don't mean to express that opinion at all, and I've been trying to highlight that in my previous posts. She's still a bad person. I just highlight those seemingly positive attributes, not because they cancel out her bad traits and her character can be left untouched, but because they show that she may be capable of reforming herself by choosing not to go along with her messed up power/family antics. That's really it. I actually agree about how every single point you made about how corrupt she is needs to change.
It's just that I think Big Mom has the chance to actually change it herself upon being knocked down a peg from the Vinsmoke/Bege coups and going on another rampage presumably after the Fishman Island bomb destroys the wedding cake (which is what her illness will make her crave) that is stopped by the Straw Hats curing her illness. Has she committed worse acts than previous arc antagonists and morally shady people Luffy has helped redeem? Of course, there's no disputing that. But I just want to draw attention to the fact that because you are able to highlight her redeeming qualities are even arguably twisted, she is differently characterized by oda compared to every other arc antagonist we can see and automatically say "Yeah, that's an evil person who needs to go to the slammer. No room for debate as to whether they can become a good person, have ever done a positive thing in their lives, or listen to the pleas/thoughts of other characters. I see no evidence of that." Notice that somewhat subtle, but significant dichotomy in how they are characterized and interpreted by fans.
That's all I'm trying to say. And I understand how Capone doesn't seem like the main guy you're supposed to hate. I totally get how he has little focus. But you keep only focusing on Capone when I keep grouping up his coup and main arc antagonist role with the Vinsmokes. Who I think that you could agree with me on being absolutely loathsome characters and will be the main antagonist focus while Capone's more of a sideshow, but still taking over villain duties from Big Mom.
I hope that I didn't seem too harsh with my own argument. I just call out faulty logic when I see it, and I count on experienced members like you to call me out on those things as well when it happens. You're giving honest thoughts, and that's all I ask from everybody on this forum. I just don't think that you are properly acknowledging the whole scope of my argument, such as only talking about how I think Bege will take over being the main arc antagonist when I keep saying that he will do this WITH the Vinsmokes, who if anything will be more significant baddies than Bege himself. Or how I am not denying that Big Mom is a bad person, but just highlighting how her personality and twisted ethics actually have some potential capacity to be convinced that she should no longer continue being such an immoral ruler/parent/captain.
See, about the Vinsmokes, I didn't mention them until now because there was something fishy about the notion of them attempting a coup, mainly because Judge appears to be genuinely interested in having Big Mom as an ally.
Thinking about it, I can't think of any advantages from Judge rebelling against Big Mom. It's not like she has any resources he's interested on besides her own power. Her army is mostly her own family, so he can't take that over either. It's possible that he would try to take over if something happened to Big Mom, but it would be a case of opportunism instead of a scheme, and he would fight Capone for it.
As such, I doubt he is in cahoots with Capone, who does appear to have an actual plan. I also wonder if Capone has a powerful ally within him that would make this plan of his more credible. Jinbe has also been quiet for a while too.
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Loved this chapter. Brook and Pedro looked awesome.
I liked the contrast between Sanji's scene and Pudding.
I'm fine with this resigned Sanji forcing himself to his cook in love self for now (better than an emo Sanji that was the alternative I feared). Badass Sanji is obviously coming later anyway.
As for Pudding :wub:, I never doubted that girl. Sanji will be a very happy man when his adventure is over.
I think she whispered a message for them to tell Sanji. Something which would easily be interpreted that she is going to run away and which would explain their reaction since they've just heard what Big Mom had to say regarding what Lola did. -
Ah its confusing … its a personalized den den mushi, one that wears accessories plus Tamago is talking to two people in a row on pg 11. Someone yells "Roger" then click and then it rings and Smoothie is on. Don't we usually see the face of them and if they wear accessories then they are already fitted out before the call? I need to do some research, I can't remember if the den den mushi of others show accessories or just facial expressions.
Maybe right in the middle of battle he didn't have time to change hats and take the glasses off lolJust joking, Oda has done some drawing mistakes before in the weekly chapters but then fixes them before they are published in a volume.
They are going through withdrawals of being wrong about "Law will betray Luffy!"
Ever since the Marineford War, I've noticed there is a ... dark and dreary for lack of better term... element to the fandom. Some look for the worst thing to happen and when it doesn't happen they move to a next 'dark conspiracy' to yell doom and gloom about."Law only saved Luffy because he planted a bomb in his heart, he plans to blackmail Luffy later."
"Zoro lost an arm during the timeskip!"
"Law abandoned his crew to become a schichibukai!"
"Law switched Luffy's heart in that operation. He will betray Luffy!"
Even as recently as Zou we still heard some say "Law will betray Luffy...somehow"
"Pedro is the traitor to the minks!"
"No, Carrot is the traitor! the naïve act is all fake!"
"Pudding is evil, after the marriage she'll show its all an act and make Sanji miserable."So makes sense some fans will jump to Pudding killing herself.
I have been against all of those theories and pudding killing herself isn't like that, or asking big mom to leave which will inquire a punishment probably.
People are moreso betrayal happy than grim dark and they use the "oda surprised us a few times so never trust any character, and never expected things to happen as they appear" excuse
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Why are we not talking about the absolute most important thing about this chapter?
!
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@Miss:
Why are we not talking about the absolute most important thing about this chapter?
!
That guy reminded me of a combination of Saldeath and the little oni from Soul Eater.
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@Miss:
Why are we not talking about the absolute most important thing about this chapter?
Aww, the edge.
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But think of the lack of dental hygiene!
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@Miss:
Why are we not talking about the absolute most important thing about this chapter?
Can't wait for him to jump the shark.
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So, between this thread and my own thoughts, I have four ideas on what Pudding might be up to.
1. Committing suicide (would be most obvious given Luffy & Nami's horrified reactions)
2. Running away (effectively the same as suicide, which Luffy & Nami know)
3. Telling Big Mom she won't marry Sanji (also effectively suicide)
4. Telling Big Mom she wants to marry one of the other Vinsmoke sons. (effectively doing what Sanji's doing)Also a though that occured to me, if Pudding refuses the marriage for one reason or another, what's stopping Big Mom from replacing her with another daughter? From that, I think Big Mom doesn't have any other single daughters of marriageable age. The rest are either too young or too married. Wonder if she has a marriageable son for Reiju? Either way, if Pudding goes route #4, Judge will not be pleased, since he went for Sanji explicitly because he's the least important to him.
Maybe this is another reason why Oda had Judge make the comment on not wanting to hand one of his children over to a "madwoman" like Big Mom. If Pudding backs out, and she only has a son to marry, it might put Judge in conflict with Big Mom, as he wouldn't want to marry off one of his "real children".
