I'm sure Luffy can say the exact same thing to any other straw hat: "without you, I can't become Pirate King".
Maybe, but here in this situation Luffy seemed to notice something was going on on Sanji's head. It wasn't really the same with Usopp.
Chapter 844: Luffy vs. Sanji
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Of course she acted out of emotion, did you see Luffy's state?
Yeah, that's why I said I wouldn't be sure about that. It seems pretty obvious she acted out of emotion to me.
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pretty deep and intense chapter. bashing sanji is so dumb.
luffy is already pirate king for me.
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as the "year of sanji" sanji is not looking that good on those chapters… i HOPE, that Oda has something for him when we get close to the climax... he HAS to do something for him... he HAS TO
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The hunger strike is fantastic.But you can't have that with out Sanji's mistake.
I was worried about Luffy being chaced by BM. Now I'm hyperworried because he won't move an inch. Wow!!!
I loved that Luffy changed his usual all over your face approach to recognizing Sanji importance to him and telling that he trust his chef will come back to him.
Telling him that he can't be the pirate king without him or that he won't move until he comes back(rather than chase). That made a powerful moment deserving of praise(something I don't do often for Luffy).
I think we are actually in agreement.
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The thing is that straw hats are heroes. So we don't expect a mistake from them. But Sanji is lacking in will: he clearly thinks the straw hats can't solve the situation without his sacriface (because he secretly keeps being loyal to Luffy). But Luffy don't believe in that solution. So he goes into a hunger strike until the very same Sanji adknowledges his mistake and joins him in their mutual adventure. That's a nice plot to me.
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I am disappointed in the way Mr prince handled that. He has no plan.
Of course he doesn't. He's got explosives on his wrists and a metaphorical knife to the throat of his "true" father. There is no plan, he's going with the flow. At best he's waiting for an opportunity to do something, at worst he's given up. Either way, direct help from the other strawhats is unnecessary and unwelcome. Him kicking Luffy away is showing that. He's going to handle this on his own.
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Sanji should realize by now their crew can pretty much do the impossible. They've really only had one setback and that was a couple years ago.
There's no break mext week right? This is not a good chapter to have to wait more than a week on lol.
As for haki talk. It does not matter if Sanji was using haki or not. He was using one of his more powerful attacks against someone not defending himself. So that's a fairly pointless topic.
When Sanji gets back he's going to grovel lile a dog for a long time for even glaring harshly at Nami lol.
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Speaking about Haki, we can't know if Sanji used CoA in his kicks, but we sure can know that Luffy didn't use it to defend itself. He wanted to take a beating to show the pain he was feeling to Sanji. I'm not sure if Nami noticed he was faking because of Baratie and his hands, but I think Luffy didn't.
If course we know. Basic kicks can't hurt Luffy's rubber body. And by the effects I doubt Luffy was just burned.Still want to see Sanji use black hardening if a lot of people at Dressrosa used it.I hope Oda somehow will show it even with the black pants. This question is up ever since the fight against Vergo
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Of course he doesn't. He's got explosives on his wrists and a metaphorical knife to the throat of his "true" father. There is no plan, he's going with the flow. At best he's waiting for an opportunity to do something, at worst he's given up. Either way, direct help from the other strawhats is unnecessary and unwelcome. Him kicking Luffy away is showing that. He's going to handle this on his own.
Yeah I don't understand why some of you shocked Sanji doesn't have a plan. Most of he plans are just go with flow anyways.
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just realized,luffy told sanji that he is a terrible liar…THIS GUY
is telling him his lies are bad…
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I expected Sanji to drop some hints while "fighting".
"Diable jambe. *Hey they are threatening zeff"
"Coup de joue blah i habe a bomb on my wrists"
I am disappointed in the way Mr prince handled that. He has no plan. And even goes all out against someone he knows won't buldge. I am not buying this drama Oda.That's the clunkiest thing I've ever heard.
And you really expect him to have a plan 2 minutes after seeing Luffy again?
Spoiler:
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Sanji should realize by now their crew can pretty much do the impossible. They've really only had one setback and that was a couple years ago.
But the guy just met his atrocious father and family. That he breaks under the presure just shows he's not a perfect guy.
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only problem i have with this is that he has no reason to burn bridges other than for drama….him going to luffy and calmly explaining what is ahappening and then quietly going back to the carriage would have done nothing to threat zeff's life.
that without counting that technically after the marriage sanji is free to rejoin the strawhats as long as they serve under big mom, just like aladdin is married with praline but still a part of the fishmen pirates..of course sanji thinks that luffy is not gonna be ok with that, but there's no reason not to talk about it instead of saying bullshit and then resort to violence.
That wouldn't work, it's not like they can call Zeff and tell him for the rest of your life look over your shoulder. This wasn't a great move on Sanji's part, but it was really his only play. He has so much anger built up that Luffy was luckily there to take it out on. I wonder what the Vinsmokes think of Sanji and Luffy now, the power that Sanji has even though I am sure he was holding back. Also the stamina for Luffy to be able to take that much punishment and still keep standing.
Great chapter in my eyes.
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How people can even expect Sanji to act calm and collected when all this shit is happening to him? He's back to his god awful family, they are threatening to take his hands away, and on top of all that, they have him blackmailed with Zeff.
Sanji is a emotional wreck right now, and he just tried his hardest to put up a facade, while knowing Luffy wouldn't back down, and probably just put him in an even worst spot.
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Sanji should realize by now their crew can pretty much do the impossible. They've really only had one setback and that was a couple years ago.
The Straw Hats can do a lot, but they can't go to East Blue and protect Baratie.
Spoiler:
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@Kaido:
The Straw Hats can do a lot, but they can't go to East Blue and protect Baratie.
Call the SH alliance <3
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Of course he doesn't. He's got explosives on his wrists and a metaphorical knife to the throat of his "true" father. There is no plan, he's going with the flow. At best he's waiting for an opportunity to do something, at worst he's given up. Either way, direct help from the other strawhats is unnecessary and unwelcome. Him kicking Luffy away is showing that. He's going to handle this on his own.
I expected him to Inform them somehow about his Situation in between the kicks. That's my expectations about luffys second best man. But he goes all out against his friends/family? Not only does he show his brothers how strong he is (a trump card i expected him to show at the last second and shock the vinsmokes taking them down) but he straight on turns his back on the strawhats. He has given up. And that is something i am not buying. It feels forced and way too fast.
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Team sanji. Currently there is no way out unless they can protect their loved ones.
Over all the haters.
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Call the SH alliance <3
That are all in the New World while BM has people close enough to take a picture of Zeff :p
Successful negro doesn't need a signature.
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But the guy just met his atrocious father and family. That he breaks under the presure just shows he's not a perfect guy.
Believe me. I never thought Sanji was perfect. But I thought he'd be better than this by now. I had seen him as someone who was reliable and could come up with a plan in a pinch. Or at least not fully give up.
He's hitting some major lows. Hopefully wherever this arc is going with Sanji I can feel that this arc has been worth this oddly forced feeling drama.
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Not only does he show his brothers how strong he is (a trump card i expected him to show at the last second and shock the vinsmokes taking them down)
Oh come on man. Concasse is a attack from Skypia. He has more than that.
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@Kaido:
That's the clunkiest thing I've ever heard.
And you really expect him to have a plan 2 minutes after seeing Luffy again?
Oh good lord… As if sanji did really think luffy will leave him alone. Are you sure you know anything about sanji?
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Sanji should realize by now their crew can pretty much do the impossible. They've really only had one setback and that was a couple years ago.
You're asking him to break the fourth wall, there.
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Believe me. I never thought Sanji was perfect. But I thought he'd be better than this by now. I had seen him as someone who was reliable and could come up with a plan in a pinch. Or at least not fully give up.
He's hitting some major lows. Hopefully wherever this arc is going with Sanji I can feel that this arc has been worth this oddly forced feeling drama.
He's mentally pushed to the limit, his options are heavily against him, and he is desperate. It's really no surprise that he breaks down and takes the most immediate route that is not the most 'logical' or 'brightest' (In other words dropping hints while fighting Luffy). It happens to everyone, even the main character.
The guy is not Akainu or Doflamingo.
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Oh come on man. Concasse is a attack from Skypia. He has more than that.
Of course it is. But there is Little more power behind his kicks, if luffy is missing a tooth and bleeding all over the place plus getting white eyed for a few seconds.
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I've lurked these forums for 6 years and go figure it's this chapter that gets me to finally break and make my first post. (i.e. It's really not all that surprising.)
I think we need to take it easy on the high expectations for Sanji here. As many have already stated, he's got Zeff and his hands to worry about. He's trapped, I can't see him getting out of this situation with his intellect or strength alone. The threat to Zeff is really what the big hindrance is here, as there's nothing he can do about it from the far side of the world. But there's something else no one has mentioned, and it's pretty obvious to me Oda is trying to drill this into our heads. I think Oda is trying to communicate to us a third factor holding Sanji back, and the focus on his backstory before this point is crucial in this regard - it's his self-worth. He goes into Mr. Prince mode when it involves getting others out of a bind, but this situation is unique in that this time it's him in the shit. In my honest opinion, I've seen signs of Sanji struggling with self-worth throughout the entire series, but I won't go into that. The point is that Sanji's past has been revealed now, and if I were to pick out the one thing Oda’s been desperate to make repetitively clear to us, it's that Sanji was told over and over again that he's a waste of space and air. He was locked up as a child for how "worthless" he was. He is battling his self-worth here in this chapter, which is probably what Luffy noticed.
The purpose of Luffy's entire speech at the end of the chapter is to make it known to Sanji just how much he needs him, which we find out at the end he needs him enough to state he can't become Pirate King without him. That’s an awful lot. In particular, take a look at the bottom three panels of page 18 on MS. Luffy says he won't let the best chef walk away on him like this. Oda directly shows us a flashback of the Vinsmoke bros pummeling Sanji for showing an interest in cooking. Then we see Sanji cry harder. He's struggling here with his demons.
When Oda does these arcs with heavy drama between the SHs, like he did for Nami, Robin, even Usopp, he sets up the troubled crewmate for an emotional destination to reach by the end of the arc. There's a buildup, a catharsis after they've hit their lowest point, and then positive change in their character. This is the trend. For Nami, it was learning to depend on others and ask for help. For Robin, it was strengthening her desire to live and to trust others. For Usopp, it was his insecurities and feelings of uselessness. For Sanji now of course, it's his self-worth.
Another thing to touch on, of course Sanji knows what Luffy is capable of when a nakama is in trouble. Luffy even says this to him on page 16, that Sanji should know better. Sanji acting strangely like this is at the heart of his concern for the very reason that Luffy has begun to understand just how much pain Sanji is in, how much he’s struggling. Obviously it's crucial that Luffy grasps this here and now.
So no. It's not about Sanji trusting Luffy to save him. It's about making Sanji understand that he's worth the effort and risk to be saved. Throughout this arc Sanji has been fighting his demons and losing. He’s spiraling into a dark emotional pit and it's Luffy's job to pull him out of it. That’s why Luffy said he won’t eat and won’t move from his spot after telling Sanji how much he needs him. We’ll probably see a major shift in Sanji’s character after this as he battles with himself and asks for help somehow. I think this is what Oda’s going for.
Sorry if I did overkill. Had a lot to say.
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I'm over there sobbing, see you another time
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@Kaido:
The Straw Hats can do a lot, but they can't go to East Blue and protect Baratie.
Hell right now Luffy and other SH made things worst on Sanji right now.
Right now how the hell is luffy going get away from big mom crew . -
But We don't have to fret too Long. Jimbei is going to make his appearance next chapter and replace sanji.
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Believe me. I never thought Sanji was perfect. But I thought he'd be better than this by now. I had seen him as someone who was reliable and could come up with a plan in a pinch. Or at least not fully give up.
He's hitting some major lows. Hopefully wherever this arc is going with Sanji I can feel that this arc has been worth this oddly forced feeling drama.
The point of suspense to me is how the hell are they going to go out of that hole (BM, The vinsmoke, Sanji-Luffy's incident). That drama is just a part. But I feel that part adds; otherwise it would be, again, a mere battle of powers.
Facing your past can be the highest test, and to that we should add the hand's and Zeff thing. I'm not bored with what is happening to Sanji. (There's a chance he thinks Luffy in the island only complicate things even more). But even if that's not his plan Luffy solution is very amusing and proper of him.
Also I don't think the fact that we saw at times similar plot with Robin should teach Sanji's something. It's rather that kind of situation that you have to live firsthand to be understood.
Well, but maybe One Piece psychology works in a different way than real psychology. :ninja:
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You damn right, Aevium…
Luffy won't move and eat at all... damn, he going full Gandhi mode then... then things are gonna get real complicated unless Sanji figures something out...
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You're asking him to break the fourth wall, there.
Not really.
They've done so many things most people in their world considered impossible. Or highly unlikely.
He's a normal guy that's strong enough to drop kick dudes larger than actual giants. They've gone against the world government for 1 person. He can basically fly. They've seen Skypeia and solved a mystery. They've met a legendary weapon. His captain broken in and out of Impel Down. Luffy was technically successful in saving Ace from execution but Ace decided to be dumb and got himself killed.
The crew as a whole has seen some weird phenomenon and survived so many things that should have not been possible. It's not really forth wall breaking to maybe have a wee bit more faith.
Long rant short. I want a rescue arc that doesn't involve a crew member having absolutely no faith in their friends for dozens of chapters lol.
Also who did the Vinsmokes send to the Baratie? Cause in general their soilders don't really strike me as impressive. Or at least nothing was really shown that outside the Vinsmoke's themselves that their forces are worlds above general mooks. I'm wagering on the Vinsmokes putting in a call only to get Zeff on the other end saying "Try again bastards. Leave my eggplant alone."
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I've lurked these forums for 6 years and go figure it's this chapter that gets me to finally break and make my first post. (i.e. It's really not all that surprising.)
I think we need to take it easy on the high expectations for Sanji here. As many have already stated, he's got Zeff and his hands to worry about. He's trapped, I can't see him getting out of this situation with his intellect or strength alone. The threat to Zeff is really what the big hindrance is here, as there's nothing he can do about it from the far side of the world. But there's something else no one has mentioned, and it's pretty obvious to me Oda is trying to drill this into our heads. I think Oda is trying to communicate to us a third factor holding Sanji back, and the focus on his backstory before this point is crucial in this regard - it's his self-worth. He goes into Mr. Prince mode when it involves getting others out of a bind, but this situation is unique in that this time it's him in the shit. In my honest opinion, I've seen signs of Sanji struggling with self-worth throughout the entire series, but I won't go into that. The point is that Sanji's past has been revealed now, and if I were to pick out the one thing Oda’s been desperate to make repetitively clear to us, it's that Sanji was told over and over again that he's a waste of space and air. He was locked up as a child for how "worthless" he was. He is battling his self-worth here in this chapter, which is probably what Luffy noticed.
The purpose of Luffy's entire speech at the end of the chapter is to make it known to Sanji just how much he needs him, which we find out at the end he needs him enough to state he can't become Pirate King without him. That’s an awful lot. In particular, take a look at the bottom three panels of page 18 on MS. Luffy says he won't let the best chef walk away on him like this. Oda directly shows us a flashback of the Vinsmoke bros pummeling Sanji for showing an interest in cooking. Then we see Sanji cry harder. He's struggling here with his demons.
When Oda does these arcs with heavy drama between the SHs, like he did for Nami, Robin, even Usopp, he sets up the troubled crewmate for an emotional destination to reach by the end of the arc. There's a buildup, a catharsis after they've hit their lowest point, and then positive change in their character. This is the trend. For Nami, it was learning to depend on others and ask for help. For Robin, it was strengthening her desire to live and to trust others. For Usopp, it was his insecurities and feelings of uselessness. For Sanji now of course, it's his self-worth.
Another thing to touch on, of course Sanji knows what Luffy is capable of when a nakama is in trouble. Luffy even says this to him on page 16, that Sanji should know better. Sanji acting strangely like this is at the heart of his concern for the very reason that Luffy has begun to understand just how much pain Sanji is in, how much he’s struggling. Obviously it's crucial that Luffy grasps this here and now.
So no. It's not about Sanji trusting Luffy to save him. It's about making Sanji understand that he's worth the effort and risk to be saved. Throughout this arc Sanji has been fighting his demons and losing. He’s spiraling into a dark emotional pit and it's Luffy's job to pull him out of it. That’s why Luffy said he won’t eat and won’t move from his spot after telling Sanji how much he needs him. We’ll probably see a major shift in Sanji’s character after this as he battles with himself and asks for help somehow. I think this is what Oda’s going for.
Sorry if I did overkill. Had a lot to say.
This is a really quality first post. I agree on all points. Which makes Luffy's speech in the end so much more powerful, as it directly appeals to Sanji's sense of self-worth.
Now, I'm wishing Sanji will say "Take me to the sea together with you! I want to cook!" next chapter. Haha.
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Not really.Also who did the Vinsmokes send to the Baratie? Cause in general their soilders don't really strike me as impressive. Or at least nothing was really shown that outside the Vinsmoke's themselves that their forces are worlds above general mooks. I'm wagering on the Vinsmokes putting in a call only to get Zeff on the other end saying "Try again bastards. Leave my eggplant alone."
Considering that they once vanquished four North Blue nations and are big shots in the Underworld, they are not mooks.
Plus Vito made it clear that Big Mom could easily get involved as well, and then it's pretty much game over.
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So I guess:
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Luffy is gonna get a new tooth by Chopper.
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Sanji is keeping the tooth safe.
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The tooth is gone.
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The tooth will magically re-appear.
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Not really.
They've done so many things most people in their world considered impossible. Or highly unlikely.
He's a normal guy that's strong enough to drop kick dudes larger than actual giants. They've gone against the world government for 1 person. He can basically fly. They've seen Skypeia and solved a mystery. They've met a legendary weapon. His captain broken in and out of Impel Down. Luffy was technically successful in saving Ace from execution but Ace decided to be dumb and got himself killed.
The crew as a whole has seen some weird phenomenon and survived so many things that should have not been possible. It's not really forth wall breaking to maybe have a wee bit more faith.
Long rant short. I want a rescue arc that doesn't involve a crew member having absolutely no faith in their friends for dozens of chapters lol.
Also who did the Vinsmokes send to the Baratie? Cause in general their soilders don't really strike me as impressive. Or at least nothing was really shown that outside the Vinsmoke's themselves that their forces are worlds above general mooks. I'm wagering on the Vinsmokes putting in a call only to get Zeff on the other end saying "Try again bastards. Leave my eggplant alone."
we are talking about a yonkou here, for sanji to have faith in luffy being able to take down both the vinmokes and big mom on his own would be unrealistical at best..especially when the past chapters were all about how they underestimated big mom's crew
as for the zeff part..nobody is to the east blue yet, they didn't send anyone.
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Not really.
They've done so many things most people in their world considered impossible. Or highly unlikely.
He's a normal guy that's strong enough to drop kick dudes larger than actual giants. They've gone against the world government for 1 person. He can basically fly. They've seen Skypeia and solved a mystery. They've met a legendary weapon. His captain broken in and out of Impel Down. Luffy was technically successful in saving Ace from execution but Ace decided to be dumb and got himself killed.
The crew as a whole has seen some weird phenomenon and survived so many things that should have not been possible. It's not really forth wall breaking to maybe have a wee bit more faith.
The situations stated are very different from the current one. Luffy has brought a small group into an Emperor's territory. And I think we can agree on the fact that Big Mom's crew is far more impressive than CP9's.
But that's not really the matter - the thing is, in Enies Lobby, Sanji wasn't the one needing to be saved. And perspectives change a lot depending on wether it's you that needs to be rescued, or you rescuing someone: the crew wouldn't mind sacrificing for their beloved ones. But seeing their beloved ones dying for them? Different story. To illustrate: on Thriller Bark, Zoro and Sanji both wanted to be the one to save their friends from Kuma.
Long rant short. I want a rescue arc that doesn't involve a crew member having absolutely no faith in their friends for dozens of chapters lol.
Accusing Sanji not to have faith in his friends when they're only like… six? and two whole armies are facing against them is going to far, imo. Again, and it has been stated several times, he has feelings.
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That are all in the New World while BM has people close enough to take a picture of Zeff :p
How do you know? Days have passed since we have seen them.
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Nice avatar, Kishido.
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Ouh… m-my feels...
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How do you know? Days have passed since we have seen them.
Uh why would any of the Grand Fleet be in the East Blue?
Successful negro doesn't need a signature.
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This worked better with Robin since she was a cold and hard to read character. Its so obvious for the characters (except for Nami I guess) that Sanji is faking his attitude that the emotional impact is lost.
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Good chapter. The long ass post by Avi up there is a good read and I agree with it.
Still feels like we've danced this waltz a few too many times though. There is a few new steps yes, but it's the same "Crewmate has a problem, so he "leaves" and we have to "save" him" gist again.
Feels very much like the timeskip's water seven, if Dressrosa was our Skypeia. Nothing wrong with that though.
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This worked better with Robin since she was a cold and hard to read character. Its so obvious for the characters (except for Nami I guess) that Sanji is faking his attitude that the emotional impact is lost.
I don't think the emotional impact is lost .
Everyone knowing sanji is faking don't stop luffy words having emotional impact.
IMO it makes it better . -
So I guess:
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Luffy is gonna get a new tooth by Chopper.
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Sanji is keeping the tooth safe.
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The tooth is gone.
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The tooth will magically re-appear.
I am actually worried for the tooth XD
hope oda doesn-t make it permament loss XD -
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Totally disappointed with how this chapter was written. Sheesh, Oda.
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Uh why would any of the Grand Fleet be in the East Blue?
Good question… I'm just thinking of possibilities.What's about Zeff himself? Not talking about strength or something but he still was a famous pirate.What if he has some connection and knows what is going on and he actually will do something about Sanji's conflict in some form.Most epic thing would be him appearing and saying.Hey little eggplant... You don't even invite your father to your wedding?
