Talk LGBT Issues And Be Nice About It

desa

I was reading about the Barronelle Stutzman case, where a woman was sued for not arranging flowers for a homosexual couples wedding, and the Washington Supreme Court just ruled against her case. I know what you're thinking. "How is that still a case in 2017? Didn't we already figure out this issue like last decade?" I tend to agree. However I did feel like this case was nearing the edge of my support for these types of cases so I wanted to see how you fine folks felt and maybe get some different opinions.

While I agree that her case was one of discrimination, it did feel like it was getting closer to a personal level. I skew towards the protection of minority rights, but at a certain level it feels like things should flip to the protection of those personal rights. Walmart definitely should not be allowed to keep Hispanics from their store. The local flower shop shouldn't refuse Muslim customers because they disagree with their beliefs. My friend James is a christian artist and people commission paintings from him. If a satanic group asks him to paint the centerpiece for their church does he not have the right to refuse? If I am a black man who likes to jail break phones and fix them for people around the neighborhood and the local grand wizard wants me to hook his phone up, is it right for the court to legally obligate me to do this for someone who I vehemently disagree with?

This isn't strictly a LGBT issue but it is an LGBT case. Basically this felt to me like it was getting close to the point where someone is being told to put their energy and effort into something they disagree with. Whether you agree or disagree with them, it feels wrong to force someone in that manner. A business and the business owner's beliefs 'should' be separate, but the smaller the business the less that seems plausible. I think at a certain level business and its owner's beliefs should be acknowledged as joined, though that feels dangerous… I'm not sure but I do know those last two situations I mentioned would leave a bad taste in my mouth, although maybe that's just the delicious flavor of justice haha. When Trump got the Rockette dancers to perform at his inauguration, their dance company bent to pressure and gave them an opt out. But if they hadn't and some of the dancers still refused to perform would we have felt so justified if the courts stuck it to them? I know its not a one to one comparison but the idea is similar. Any thoughts? And feel free to frame it around the LGBT part.

p.s. if this isn't the right thread for this topic I apologize

Remind me that case were a person didn't want to write a pro gay marriage on a cake. My opinion is that you can refuse to promote ideas against your belief but you can't refuse to serve people. Hooking up a phone has nothing to do with how racist the guy is so I would say the law should side with him. In this case the problem were who she was serving so yes the court did right siding with her. I would say the same if it was a black woman having to arrange flowers for David Duke(I think that's the name of the guy from the KKK,right?). The court is suppose to side against discrimination not just the one society has decided as bad.

Serra Britt

@algebro:

While I agree that her case was one of discrimination, it did feel like it was getting closer to a personal level. I skew towards the protection of minority rights, but at a certain level it feels like things should flip to the protection of those personal rights. Walmart definitely should not be allowed to keep Hispanics from their store. The local flower shop shouldn't refuse Muslim customers because they disagree with their beliefs. My friend James is a christian artist and people commission paintings from him. If a satanic group asks him to paint the centerpiece for their church does he not have the right to refuse? If I am a black man who likes to jail break phones and fix them for people around the neighborhood and the local grand wizard wants me to hook his phone up, is it right for the court to legally obligate me to do this for someone who I vehemently disagree with?

This isn't strictly a LGBT issue but it is an LGBT case. Basically this felt to me like it was getting close to the point where someone is being told to put their energy and effort into something they disagree with. Whether you agree or disagree with them, it feels wrong to force someone in that manner. A business and the business owner's beliefs 'should' be separate, but the smaller the business the less that seems plausible. I think at a certain level business and its owner's beliefs should be acknowledged as joined, though that feels dangerous… I'm not sure but I do know those last two situations I mentioned would leave a bad taste in my mouth, although maybe that's just the delicious flavor of justice haha. When Trump got the Rockette dancers to perform at his inauguration, their dance company bent to pressure and gave them an opt out. But if they hadn't and some of the dancers still refused to perform would we have felt so justified if the courts stuck it to them? I know its not a one to one comparison but the idea is similar. Any thoughts? And feel free to frame it around the LGBT part.

@desa:

Remind me that case were a person didn't want to write a pro gay marriage on a cake. My opinion is that you can refuse to promote ideas against your belief but you can't refuse to serve people. Hooking up a phone has nothing to do with how racist the guy is so I would say the law should side with him. In this case the problem were who she was serving so yes the court did right siding with her. I would say the same if it was a black woman having to arrange flowers for David Duke(I think that's the name of the guy from the KKK,right?). The court is suppose to side against discrimination not just the one society has decided as bad.

The differences I see here is it's one thing to not want to serve/perform/etc for an entire class of people (homosexual), and something entirely different to not want to serve/perform/etc a single person. If a person doesn't want to help a gay person, why do they not want to? Has the person wronged them somehow? Or would they say the same for everyone? In the case of Trump, Or Donald Duke, both people have specific things they can cite, things those people chose to do. Sure they are white men, but it's easy to point out specific that people don't like them for, so it's not discriminating against a class of people, it's against specific people for their actions.

If someone doesn't like homosexual actions, and their friend or whatever is homosexual, and they had specific knowledge of them doing homosexual acts they don't like…I guess there's precedent? But you can't assume every homosexual person does the same things. So just because you don't like certain things regarding homosexuality, discrimination without knowing certain things are done would be bad.

If someone were to say "white guys are terrible because they do this/that/etc so I'm not going to serve them" that would be unlawful discrimination because they may or they may not. But saying "I won't serve Donald Trump because he's done X, Y and Z lately" would be fine because there are specific actions taken that you can speak out against.

Maybe I'm over-analyzing XD

desa

@Serra:

The differences I see here is it's one thing to not want to serve/perform/etc for an entire class of people (homosexual), and something entirely different to not want to serve/perform/etc a single person. If a person doesn't want to help a gay person, why do they not want to? Has the person wronged them somehow? Or would they say the same for everyone? In the case of Trump, Or Donald Duke, both people have specific things they can cite, things those people chose to do. Sure they are white men, but it's easy to point out specific that people don't like them for, so it's not discriminating against a class of people, it's against specific people for their actions.

If someone doesn't like homosexual actions, and their friend or whatever is homosexual, and they had specific knowledge of them doing homosexual acts they don't like…I guess there's precedent? But you can't assume every homosexual person does the same things. So just because you don't like certain things regarding homosexuality, discrimination without knowing certain things are done would be bad.

If someone were to say "white guys are terrible because they do this/that/etc so I'm not going to serve them" that would be unlawful discrimination because they may or they may not. But saying "I won't serve Donald Trump because he's done X, Y and Z lately" would be fine because there are specific actions taken that you can speak out against.

Maybe I'm over-analyzing

Then all you would need to do is said I don't serve him because he kissed someone of the same sex or some ridiculous things like that. As far as I am concerned discrimination law are here to stop you from giving service just to the ones you like. Refusing to serve Duke or Trump is discrimination. It is just one society is comfortable with because they "deserve it".

To take my example with cake lady. I think you can refuse to sell a cake that says "let gay be married" to a straight buyer but I don't think you can refuse to sell a cake that say"happy birthday" to a gay buyer.

Serra Britt

@desa:

Then all you would need to do is said I don't serve him because he kissed someone of the same sex or some ridiculous things like that. As far as I am concerned discrimination law are here to stop you from giving service just to the ones you like. Refusing to serve Duke or Trump is discrimination. It is just one society is comfortable with because they "deserve it".

To take my example with cake lady. I think you can refuse to sell a cake that says "let gay be married" to a straight buyer but I don't think you can refuse to sell a cake that say"happy birthday" to a gay buyer.

Then I assume the line has to be drawn regarding the extent you have to go to serve someone. Refusing to sell an item off the shelf? No way, it's already done, so you aren't making any extra effort. Flying across the country to perform? Well, that's a big chunk of your own effort that you have to put forth. So you shouldn't have to do it for everyone, and especially not at a set price as there are variables to consider.

I know the flower arrangement lady lost in part because apparently her works were not judged to be "artistic" enough to warrant that she was putting forth a special effort that she didn't care to do. I guess if they wanted her to spell out "Gay is Beautiful" in flower wreaths, she would have been justified.

I work in retail so I guess if I got Trump on the phone somehow, and he wanted something, I'd give him the same level of service I would anyone else, because it makes no difference as the effort is based on what needs to be done, not whom it is, and I can give the same service to all. I'm also an artist though, and if Trump wanted me to draw something for him…I'd say no because that's not anything I'd want to do, even if he paid me a lot to do so, because of the level of effort I'd have to give is different. I guess if he paid me to draw some smiley face? I don't know, It would be hard to not expect him to either not pay me at all when I'm done (as he has done to others) or take my art and claim it's his own.

I don't know...there's really no way to make a law without there being gaps that require an individual look.

desa

@Serra:

Then I assume the line has to be drawn regarding the extent you have to go to serve someone. Refusing to sell an item off the shelf? No way, it's already done, so you aren't making any extra effort. Flying across the country to perform? Well, that's a big chunk of your own effort that you have to put forth. So you shouldn't have to do it for everyone, and especially not at a set price as there are variables to consider.

I consider the line drawn on how if you are an open business or not. Shop, markets and the likes are open to all. Personal performance of an artist not so much.

I know the flower arrangement lady lost in part because apparently her works were not judged to be "artistic" enough to warrant that she was putting forth a special effort that she didn't care to do. I guess if they wanted her to spell out "Gay is Beautiful" in flower wreaths, she would have been justified.

Yes because she wouldn't be discriminating against someone but refusing to actively promote what she opposed.

I work in retail so I guess if I got Trump on the phone somehow, and he wanted something, I'd give him the same level of service I would anyone else, because it makes no difference as the effort is based on what needs to be done, not whom it is, and I can give the same service to all. I'm also an artist though, and if Trump wanted me to draw something for him…I'd say no because that's not anything I'd want to do, even if he paid me a lot to do so, because of the level of effort I'd have to give is different. I guess if he paid me to draw some smiley face? I don't know, It would be hard to not expect him to either not pay me at all when I'm done (as he has done to others) or take my art and claim it's his own.

I would say it depends on why you refuse to draw for him. If it's because he is Trump and you don't like his positions or how he acts it is discrimination(in my opinion). If it's because you fear to not find proper compensation or you believe he will harm you by stealing your art, it's a different thing.

I don't know…there's really no way to make a law without there being gaps that require an individual look.

Meh. I'm sure it's not that hard to work out but that people are reasonable enough in judgnment that the need for a hard look hasn't been needed.

Serra Britt

You've given me a good perspective to consider. Thank you.

desa

@Serra:

You've given me a good perspective to consider. Thank you.

Happy to have a discussion not ending internet yelling.

RoboBlue

@Noqanky:

I'm not entirely sure if those belief sets are as obviously belligerent or dangerous towards certain individuals aside from "you believe in something my belief tells me is evils!"

I think that's dangerous enough. The designation of "evil" should be reserved only for things that are verifiably detrimental to human society and life itself; murder, intentional destruction of knowledge, and sadism among other things.

Nolus

I feel a little as though I've wasted time replying to that guy in the American news thread.

Oh well.

I got good news though with some not so good ones.
I've got every paper necessary for the name-change. I only need to ask my mom for one of my documents and I'm good to go.
The bad news is, I've written to and called the department that handles these cases and they told me the waiting can range from 6 to 12 months. And unfortunately, that means I can't get my breast-surgery till I get an approval from said department.
As disheartening as it is, I think I will manage. I hate my boobs and hate having to wear a bra (sadly, I can't omit using it as I was "blessed" with c-cups). I will try binding, albeit while being very, very careful.
On the bright side, in a month or two, I'll already have enough money for the aforementioned surgery, so I don't have to worry about that anymore. The money will be sitting there in my account, ready when the time comes. I've already pretty much chosen the doctor I'll go to, and a lot of people seem to be praising his skills. Of course he's transfriendly as well (kinda figures).

The psychologist who wrote one of the necessary documents said some really inspiring and kind things that made me feel incredibly welcomed and accepted. He even suggested me trying to be a sort of voice for transpeople as he thinks I can speak well and have a good perspective on things. My psychiatrist also suggested me trying to translate one of the books that helped me greatly in my search of answers when I set out to find out what being a transgender really means.
It's strange to hear how highly these people think about me and what potential they see in me.

BWYYWLTGHR

@Nolus:

I feel a little as though I've wasted time replying to that guy in the American news thread.

Oh well.

I got good news though with some not so good ones.

That guy. -_-' Maybe you wasted your time, maybe something will get through. Who knows. But it's nice that you try anyways!

Good to hear about good news tough Nolus! Hopefully the months will pass quickly for you!

Also, I have a question I guess… Not to you specifically Nolus, but I was sorta wondering how common it is among trans men to do weight lifting and such? I mean, women who weight lift a lot do get a little more masculine in appearance, many of them having breast augmentation...

Serra Britt

@Nolus:

I got good news though with some not so good ones.
I've got every paper necessary for the name-change. I only need to ask my mom for one of my documents and I'm good to go.
The bad news is, I've written to and called the department that handles these cases and they told me the waiting can range from 6 to 12 months. And unfortunately, that means I can't get my breast-surgery till I get an approval from said department.
As disheartening as it is, I think I will manage. I hate my boobs and hate having to wear a bra (sadly, I can't omit using it as I was "blessed" with c-cups). I will try binding, albeit while being very, very careful.
On the bright side, in a month or two, I'll already have enough money for the aforementioned surgery, so I don't have to worry about that anymore. The money will be sitting there in my account, ready when the time comes. I've already pretty much chosen the doctor I'll go to, and a lot of people seem to be praising his skills. Of course he's transfriendly as well (kinda figures).

The psychologist who wrote one of the necessary documents said some really inspiring and kind things that made me feel incredibly welcomed and accepted. He even suggested me trying to be a sort of voice for transpeople as he thinks I can speak well and have a good perspective on things. My psychiatrist also suggested me trying to translate one of the books that helped me greatly in my search of answers when I set out to find out what being a transgender really means.
It's strange to hear how highly these people think about me and what potential they see in me.

Waiting sucks, definitely. I likely will have a similar wait time to get surgery and I've more or less already been approved. (will know for sure March 14th)

So saying, happy to hear people have said a lot of nice things about you! You deserve it

captain usopp

Until you can get the actual surgery, binding sounds kind of fun and adventurous. Part of transforming and molding yourself into the real you. I'm sure they got some good products out there for that.

I got a trans friend who loves wearing corsets to feel more feminine. She says it's like having a big warm hug and makes her happy.

Nolus

I ordered my first binder. Measuring was a pain, but I think I got it right. What was harder is finding a shop that ships for less than 60usd. The binders themselves weren't that expensive. I do hope it'll fit and I can enjoy it while possibly going out with friends. Maybe I will go to the men's bathroom more confidently, which is good, since I sort of in between which one I should choose. Like, I legit thought about not even going in malls etc, because I felt so weird and awkward. I figured holding it in would cause me more discomfort and that nobody will even look at me, so I chose the women's one. Sigh, somehow I feel that if I get called out of being in the "wrong"
I could at least hold up my ID and point to the "sex: female" section and nobody will say a word after that. I know it's a silly fear, but by god, I cannot wait to just waltz into the men's restroom, pee like a boss and get out confidently.

captain usopp

What if you go with a male friend?

CosmicDebris

@Nolus:

I ordered my first binder. Measuring was a pain, but I think I got it right. What was harder is finding a shop that ships for less than 60usd. The binders themselves weren't that expensive. I do hope it'll fit and I can enjoy it while possibly going out with friends. .

Where did you get yours from? Seems to me the one I ordered had a pretty average shipping price (Underworks, I think?). I'm sure you've already read about binder safety, but I think it's generally best to overestimate size. They do stretch a bit over time, but binders that are too tight will cause breathing problems at the least and can cause serious injury at worst. There was a site I saw at one point that had a lot of personal reviews from different ones from various companies.

Nolus

@CosmicDebris:

Where did you get yours from? Seems to me the one I ordered had a pretty average shipping price (Underworks, I think?). I'm sure you've already read about binder safety, but I think it's generally best to overestimate size. They do stretch a bit over time, but binders that are too tight will cause breathing problems at the least and can cause serious injury at worst. There was a site I saw at one point that had a lot of personal reviews from different ones from various companies.

I got it from GC2B. I initially wanted one from Underworks, I was ready to order it, but I saw that the shipping was a whopping 60usd and I decided to see some other sites.
I've read a lot about binders, especially since I, at first, was very afraid of them. I hoped I could get the breast-removal surgery sooner so I can just skip the binder part, but that's not going to happen. With spring coming up (and summer) I once again feel the dread of not being able to hide my boobs. I realize I probably shouldn't and won't wear a binder all day every day, but I do want to have some moments outside were I can walk upright and shake hands with new people using my "soon-to-be" name.

Speaking of name, there have been a change of plans, or rather, unchange. I mentioned somewhere in this thread that my chosen name was going to be "Levente" (a pretty standard Hungarian name). I thought a lot about it and decided I'd go with my initial idea, even if that sounds weirder in Hungarian. This name is Caleb (written a little differently); the reason why I went back to it is because it just… feels better, it feels right. I use this name already in some situations; the psychologist I went for a paper insisted that he'll call me my new name and treat me like a guy (words cannot describe how nice it felt). I also introduce myself as that among the trans-community here in Hungary I occasionally hang out with.
@captain:

What if you go with a male friend?

That might work. I'll talk to my friends about it.

captain usopp

Cosmic, if she's ordering from the states it might be pricey. I was shocked how much it cost to send wolfy in Sweden something once. Good thing I had good money back then.

Caleb sounds nice, nolus

CosmicDebris

Wow, you're right. Crazy. What the hell does that extra $54 go to? I certainly don't have the reverse happen to me when I order from Europe. I assume there are some Europe based companies out there.

Nolus

@CosmicDebris:

Wow, you're right. Crazy. What the hell does that extra $54 go to? I certainly don't have the reverse happen to me when I order from Europe. I assume there are some Europe based companies out there.

I've ordered like a million stuff from the US over the years and yeah, shipping was mostly pretty tame. Heck, GC2B (where I ordered the binder from yesterday) had a shipping cost of 10 dollars.

CosmicDebris

@Nolus:

I've ordered like a million stuff from the US over the years and yeah, shipping was mostly pretty tame. Heck, GC2B (where I ordered the binder from yesterday) had a shipping cost of 10 dollars.

Maybe something to do with all the turmoil in trade agreements and such lately is affecting it. When one company is charging 10 and the other is charging 60, something seems wrong. But I have no clue how all that stuff works.

$10 is waaay better than $60, at least!

Serra Britt

For a $60 shipping fee, I hope they air lift it to your house the moment the order comes though. But I guess $60 wouldn't pay for that XD

Nolus

A pretty interesting article for those who want to familiarize with another perspective:

http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2456-i-was-transgender-before-that-word-existed-7-dark-realities.html

captain usopp

@Nolus:

I've ordered like a million stuff from the US over the years and yeah, shipping was mostly pretty tame. Heck, GC2B (where I ordered the binder from yesterday) had a shipping cost of 10 dollars.

OK, that surprises me. I thought the shipping rates would be by country. I also shipped a game to someone in England and it was dirt cheap and fast.

Serra Britt

@Nolus:

A pretty interesting article for those who want to familiarize with another perspective:

http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2456-i-was-transgender-before-that-word-existed-7-dark-realities.html

Oh my. Rough to read. And in a way, it's still the case. "Don't pass well? Then please vanish…"

I wish it wasn't like that

RoboBlue

Straight people (guys at least) initially have very strong instincts telling them to breed with the opposite sex and not with the same sex. The idea that someone was x but is now y really disrupts that, so how do people adapt?

Is it easier than it seems from the outside?

Nolus

@RoboBlue:

Straight people (guys at least) initially have very strong instincts telling them to breed with the opposite sex and not with the same sex. The idea that someone was x but is now y really disrupts that, so how do people adapt?

Is it easier than it seems from the outside?

Uhm, I don't think "breeding" is the right term we want to use here. Humanity has passed way beyond the point where sex is all about baby-making.

Also, what do you mean by "someone was x but is now y"? Do you mean a transgender person?

Noqanky

@RoboBlue:

Straight people (guys at least) initially have very strong instincts telling them to breed with the opposite sex and not with the same sex. The idea that someone was x but is now y really disrupts that, so how do people adapt?

Is it easier than it seems from the outside?

Yes, yes it is. From what I've seen at least.

Biologically and socially trans women are the opposite sex of straight males, so it really should be no different to them from being attracted to a cis woman, at least when it comes to the nitty gritty of "him" being attracted to "her"

I'm sure that it is a mental hurdle to overcome though, but that's the case when it comes to things like friendships and other social interactions as well. Some people are good at taking the present and accepting it, others struggle with reconciling an idea of who someone is now compared to who they used to be. My guess is that it's a question of an individual's adaptability.

RoboBlue

When I first see someone, my brain makes a little profile of them with basic information like their apparent gender.

I understand that a trans person is their chosen gender, but the fact that they're trans feels like extra info that I should keep in mind… but that effectively gives the person a slightly different gender tag (trans-woman or trans-man instead of just man or woman). Is that wrong?

Noqanky

@RoboBlue:

When I first see someone, my brain makes a little profile of them with basic information like their apparent gender.

I understand that a trans person is their chosen gender, but the fact that they're trans feels like extra info that I should keep in mind… but that effectively gives the person a slightly different gender tag (trans-woman or trans-man instead of just man or woman). Is that wrong?

Depends on how much that person associates with the trans tag. Some trans people are proud of that label. Some don't care for it but don't mind it. And then there's some that will resent that association.

My conclusion is that it's just overall easier to treat them based on how they present. If they present mainly as female, there's really no need to profile them as cis or trans.

Monquito

@Noqanky:

Yes, yes it is. From what I've seen at least.

Biologically and socially trans women are the opposite sex of straight males, so it really should be no different to them from being attracted to a cis woman, at least when it comes to the nitty gritty of "him" being attracted to "her"

I'm sure that it is a mental hurdle to overcome though, but that's the case when it comes to things like friendships and other social interactions as well. Some people are good at taking the present and accepting it, others struggle with reconciling an idea of who someone is now compared to who they used to be. My guess is that it's a question of an individual's adaptability.

wait… what?? no.
In a strictly biological sense, people can't really turn the sex their were born with into the opposite one, or at least not with current science.
in the social sense, yes, they can, that's what LGBT people are all about, to make people get to differentiate sex and gender and spread self-identity acceptance.

@Nolus:

Uhm, I don't think "breeding" is the right term we want to use here. Humanity has passed way beyond the point where sex is all about baby-making.

Also, what do you mean by "someone was x but is now y"? Do you mean a transgender person?

His post confused me as well, If I'm not mistaken, trans people don't 'adapt' but most likely 'embrace'

MetaMario

@Noqanky:

Depends on how much that person associates with the trans tag. Some trans people are proud of that label. Some don't care for it but don't mind it. And then there's some that will resent that association.

Do you know of any cases or media where person A is proud of the label and debates with person B, who isn't? It's fascinating to me to see such different approaches.

Noqanky

@Monquito:

wait… what?? no.
In a strictly biological sense, people can't really turn the sex their were born with into the opposite one, or at least not with current science.
in the social sense, yes, they can, that's what LGBT people are all about, to make people get to differentiate sex and gender and spread self-identity acceptance.

I should clarify:

By biological I referred mostly to things like hormones and the result these have when it comes to appearance and how all those affect attraction. The way someone feels, the way they smell, the way they look… all of these things factor into attraction considerably, and HRT does have an impact on those. Given RoboBlue was talking about attraction, that is what I was thinking about in my response. Usually whether a woman has a uterus or not is not something that will factor into whether random guy will look at her and experience attraction or not, right?

Also, the basic purpose of HRT and SRS and other procedures is to allow a trans individual to match their gender and sex as best as possible to the best of science's ability, since dysphoria is a result of those two being in dissonance. So while the processes we have will not fully lead to a trans woman having the same exact composition as a cis woman, I disagree with you that the trans experience is entirely social.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@MetaMario:

Do you know of any cases or media where person A is proud of the label and debates with person B, who isn't? It's fascinating to me to see such different approaches.

Not really, I don't follow these things much. Discussion from within the trans community about who and what we should be is not something I'm particularly into, since my personal focus is just on living my life the way I want and doing what I can to ensure that same comfort exists for others.

Monquito

thanks for clarification, totally missed that the discussion was about attraction.

MetaMario

@Noqanky:

Not really, I don't follow these things much. Discussion from within the trans community about who and what we should be is not something I'm particularly into, since my personal focus is just on living my life the way I want and doing what I can to ensure that same comfort exists for others.

Understood. Sorry if I overstepped any lines.

Serra Britt

@RoboBlue:

Straight people (guys at least) initially have very strong instincts telling them to breed with the opposite sex and not with the same sex. The idea that someone was x but is now y really disrupts that, so how do people adapt?

Is it easier than it seems from the outside?

Not sure if I can answer this well since I'm pansexual. For me, it's really easy since, if I like someone, I wouldn't mind having sex. Also, I'm sterile so even if I weren't transgender I wouldn't be having kids. So…well I can't answer about being straight. Two people I really care about, cis women, are straight. They both love me anyways. One knew me as a man beforehand, and the love evolved from there after I came out to her. The other knew me as a woman first, and I told her I was transgender later. She has always viewed me as an exception to her being straight. She would have preferred to have a boyfriend, for instance, but it aware of how much she cares for me as well. Related to breeding...the first one we might have been able to have kids, but for the second it was impossible on her end as well.

So I guess in some cases it's easier? Depends on the individual.

captain usopp

I can see some trans as being sensitive to having the trans tag. "I'm not trans woman, I'm woman, plain and simple" That's how I view one of my trans friends. I know she's trans, but that's just a secondary factor, and doesn't really matter. to me she's just [NAME] and she is an awesome person.

I have another friend on my FB, who is Trans Male, and has FB pics of them when they were a little girl. They are just comfy with themselves and life is a journey. If I ever had any weird/ awkward trans questions, I know I could go to this person, and they'd have no problems talking about it.

Everyone's different. We are all people, and we all just need to respect each other as individuals. ^_^

Rukusho

Thanks for making this thread I'm not too sure on LGBT issues but its nice to see different people from all aspects , most of the time I just spectate the forum but this is something I'd most likely be taking part in.

Nolus

@captain:

I can see some trans as being sensitive to having the trans tag. "I'm not trans woman, I'm woman, plain and simple" That's how I view one of my trans friends. I know she's trans, but that's just a secondary factor, and doesn't really matter. to me she's just [NAME] and she is an awesome person.

I have another friend on my FB, who is Trans Male, and has FB pics of them when they were a little girl. They are just comfy with themselves and life is a journey. If I ever had any weird/ awkward trans questions, I know I could go to this person, and they'd have no problems talking about it.

Everyone's different. We are all people, and we all just need to respect each other as individuals. ^_^

Well said.

There are people who take pride in being trans and show it to the world to encourage not-yet open trans to seek help and to say "Life does not stop here. You can be happy! Hang on, you are not alone!" Such a person can even show cisgender people that transgenders are just like them: people with dreams, hopes, fears, positive and negative sides etc. Seeing an average Joe or Jane come out as transgender, some might rethink the whole "are they really boogeymen"-notion.

That said, if a certain individual decides to go stealth, it is absolutely a MUST to respect that and to keep it a secret if they decide to share it with you. If one's not sure, I guess it's always good to ask.

There can even be people who might be openly trans in one environment while going stealth for others. I can imagine myself going to a parade in, say, one of the Scandinavian countries, while I would not dare to do so in Hungary. In a way, I'll want as little commotion around my transition as possible while I'm here. Once I move, if I move, I'll be more willing to "reveal my past".

RoboBlue

It sounds like I'm probably best off just not making it a priority to remember if a person is trans (at least in 99% of cases) and identifying them solely by their chosen gender/sex.

The potential damage of accidentally revealing that someone is trans in the wrong setting would almost certainly outweigh any awkwardness resulting from the alternative.

Noqanky

Part of me is curious about what you say regularly to women that makes you expect awkwardness from trans women, but at the same time I'm afraid to ask.

RoboBlue

@Noqanky:

Part of me is curious about what you say regularly to women that makes you expect awkwardness from trans women, but at the same time I'm afraid to ask.

What do you mean?

Noqanky

@RoboBlue:

What do you mean?

@RoboBlue:

The potential damage of accidentally revealing that someone is trans in the wrong setting would almost certainly outweigh any awkwardness resulting from the alternative.

was simply confused about why it seems like you're expecting awkwardness.

RoboBlue

@Noqanky:

was simply confused about why it seems like you're expecting awkwardness.

I'm not, that's why it seems easier not to worry about it.

Serra Britt

@RoboBlue:

The potential damage of accidentally revealing that someone is trans in the wrong setting would almost certainly outweigh any awkwardness resulting from the alternative.

Back when I was stealth online (in other words, I was a girl and girl only) someone told one of my other friends I was transgender. Someone I wasn't out to yet. And that ended the friendship because I couldn't do it on my terms (it was her issue, not mine). In some in person situations, it could be even worse. So yes, in general it's always best to refer to someone by their chosen gender, unless they have given permission to do otherwise.

Nolus

Today is Women's day in Hungary. I've never liked this tradition that much, but now it's like a punch to the gut. My brother (who knows I'm trans) gave me a chocolate and wished me a happy women's day this morning. I came to my office to see a potted flower on my desk. I'm currently alone here, but I fear that every single male colleague of mine will greet me with this bullshit. I already feel pretty fucked up lately and this is NOT helping. I wish they'd just forget about me for a day.

Gender dysphoria going strong.

CCC

@Nolus:

This name is Caleb (written a little differently)

May I ask how it looks written differently (in Hungarian)?

Because that's…actually my name ;D
Needless to say, nice choice!

Nolus

@CCC:

May I ask how it looks written differently (in Hungarian)?

Because that's…actually my name ;D
Needless to say, nice choice!

Woah, I didn't know! So your nickname here actually stands for CalebCalebCaleb? kidding

It's written as Káleb and the pronounciation (which I won't use because it sounds stupid) is like this: the "á" is the same as "u" in luck, while the "e" is like the first "e" in excellent. I was gonna search for a soundbite of it, but I didn't find anything. I will probably use an in-between prononciation for my Hungarian fellows with both vowels said alike.

I read that Caleb can mean dog, which is funny cause in Hungarian, eb means just that.

CCC

Lol nah that's just the first C, of course.

Cool to know that it's a name that pops up in other cultures! Makes sense given the Biblical origin.
As a cat person, I hate the dog implication, but whaddya gonna do…

Anyway, hope the name serves you well!!

MetaMario

@Nolus:

It's written as Káleb and the pronounciation (which I won't use because it sounds stupid) is like this: the "á" is the same as "u" in luck, while the "e" is like the first "e" in excellent. I was gonna search for a soundbite of it, but I didn't find anything. I will probably use an in-between prononciation for my Hungarian fellows with both vowels said alike.

I'm just trying to vocalize it:
Kuh-lehb? [/murican]

I read that Caleb can mean dog, which is funny cause in Hungarian, eb means just that.

Twice the dogs! XD

Nice new name btw.

Nolus

@CCC:

Lol nah that's just the first C, of course.

Cool to know that it's a name that pops up in other cultures! Makes sense given the Biblical origin.
As a cat person, I hate the dog implication, but whaddya gonna do…

Anyway, hope the name serves you well!!

It can also mean loyal, so just go with that meaning

That said, I've never met a Caleb/Káleb in my whole life. The first time I encountered this name was actually while listening to Sonata Arctica. They have a song titled "Caleb".

Thank you~ I will do everything to earn it!
@MetaMario:

I'm just trying to vocalize it:
Kuh-lehb? [/murican]

Twice the dogs! XD

Nice new name btw.

Sorta like that, yeah.
I'm sure it's just a coincidence.
Or is it? ~~yeah it is~~

Story time:
I was at a concert last Sunday, which was awesome. First thing's first, I went to the bathroom. Out of habit and out of fear of somehow getting caught without a dick in the men's restroom, I went to the women's part.
The cleaning lady who was there and guiding guys left and girls right stopped me and said (kindly, not impolitely) that the men's toilet is on the left probably thinking I wasn't paying attention. I immiediately said "But I'm a woman" and of course regretted it the same millisecond, but the damage's been done. Luckily I didn't ponder too much on it because metal tends to make me forget about these unimportant details momentarily.
But since then, I've been wondering. Would anyone have noticed if I went to the guys' side?

Wait, I just now realized: am I passing alright even without surgery and hormones? Or is it just another case of the good ol' "are you a boy or a girl" just with less obnoxiousness?