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    • MetaMario
      MetaMario @Serra Britt
      @Serra Britt last edited by
      MetaMario
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      @Serra:

      I think you're off to a good start. Don't have it up front. Unless something happens in your story to actually differentiate the LGBT person, who really cares? If someone is lesbian but there's no romantic scenes, then it actually doesn't matter if they are lesbian or not. For instance. When I think of characters when I consider writing stories, I have gotten into the habit of deciding if they are trans* or not, and what sexuality they are. Is it because I'm considering what to do in the story with them? No, just that I want to know just in case I need to and I don't make a snap decision later.

      On the subject of trans characters, I've imagined a lot of series where a main character is just that, but I feel like I fall my lack of IRL interactions with that demographic cripples my ability to really make said character pop. It feels hard to make a character without going "hey look X is transgender!", and yet, when you don't, don't you take away the "appeal" of said character?

      To better explain - postive trans representation is really nice, but can it pulled it off in a subtle way without feeling like that quality can be interchanged for [insert minority facet here]?

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      • Zar
        Zar @Noqanky
        @Noqanky last edited by
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        @Serra:

        I think you're off to a good start. Don't have it up front. Unless something happens in your story to actually differentiate the LGBT person, who really cares? If someone is lesbian but there's no romantic scenes, then it actually doesn't matter if they are lesbian or not. For instance. When I think of characters when I consider writing stories, I have gotten into the habit of deciding if they are trans* or not, and what sexuality they are. Is it because I'm considering what to do in the story with them? No, just that I want to know just in case I need to and I don't make a snap decision later.

        That's pretty much my approach right now. I don't want to make stories about a character being X, but it's good to know their sexuality etc. for subtext and any romantic scenes that might come along. Like if they're at a bar and see someone they find attractive.

        @Noqanky:

        I notice a lot that trans in media usually start out as already transitioned or full time in some other way, and I understand that such a thing is probably to allow focus on the character as the gender they identify as.

        That said, I personally have always wanted to see more media have characters that are around for a while but are trans and don't realize it/learn about it/transition until a couple story arcs in. Reason being that I find it an interesting way to go into how perceptions change, how people around the character deal with the change, and also to show the sort of decisions and courage involved in coming out. And yea, naturally there'd be more to the character than just being trans.

        That'd be an interesting approach, though probably difficult to write without personal experience.

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        • Wagomu
          Wagomu
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          Big thanks to CCC for taking care of cleanup while I was away at classes. Yeesh, if anyone wonders why I'm so quick to jump on people like errorist, let that wall of trash be a reminder. I don't ever want to shut down discussion, but if the rhetoric you're starting with isn't respectful, then you need to make it clear why we should respect you.

          @Zar:

          If anyone wants to discuss something more pleasant I have a question. I'm interested in including some LGBT characters in some comics, and I'm curious what you consider good LGBT characters? Do you have any examples of existing characters that you like, and/or things you'd like to see more of? And on the flip-side, what are things to avoid when writing such characters?

          I'm a big fan of the "not in your face" approach that some shows utilize - that is, a character being LGBT isn't their whole existence. They're treated like any other characters with personal likes, hobbies, personality… so you never outright write "hey X is a lesbian" but rather let the reader figure it out for themselves. Some bad things I've noticed is the trend for non-hetero relationships to be secondary, same-sex relationships being made for the opposite sex's enjoyment (Yaoi/Yuri often get this complaint), LGBT characters being killed off and the character is mostly comedic and played for laughs.

          I definitely think it's important to have more LGBT characters in normal positions. That's the easiest to work with, because anybody can write that kind of LGBT character, and it's meaningful to have those kinds of role models. Steven Universe is the big obvious example, where a lot of the characters have something nonstandard about them, whether or not they're LGBT, and that is rarely the issue they are grappling with. If you don't watch SU already, it is just the best at this stuff.

          3DS FC: 0662-3589-2887

          NNID: Gibbs-free

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          • Zar
            Zar @Wagomu
            @Wagomu last edited by
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            @Wagomu:

            I definitely think it's important to have more LGBT characters in normal positions. That's the easiest to work with, because anybody can write that kind of LGBT character, and it's meaningful to have those kinds of role models. Steven Universe is the big obvious example, where a lot of the characters have something nonstandard about them, whether or not they're LGBT, and that is rarely the issue they are grappling with. If you don't watch SU already, it is just the best at this stuff.

            SU is actually one of my main inspirations 🙂 I like how there's not one token couple, but many different depictions of LGBT - and they're used to teach morals about love and relationships that anyone can make use of, no matter preference.

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            • Cyclone_Baroness
              Cyclone_Baroness @Zar
              @Zar last edited by
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              @Zar:

              I couldn't even get through the entire post, it was so unpleasant.

              And "didn't know he was trans" my ass, of all people you can target and all things you could discuss the first thing you do is misgender the one person who'll be hurt by it the most? Not gonna fall for that.

              –------------

              If anyone wants to discuss something more pleasant I have a question. I'm interested in including some LGBT characters in some comics, and I'm curious what you consider good LGBT characters? Do you have any examples of existing characters that you like, and/or things you'd like to see more of? And on the flip-side, what are things to avoid when writing such characters?

              I'm a big fan of the "not in your face" approach that some shows utilize - that is, a character being LGBT isn't their whole existence. They're treated like any other characters with personal likes, hobbies, personality... so you never outright write "hey X is a lesbian" but rather let the reader figure it out for themselves. Some bad things I've noticed is the trend for non-hetero relationships to be secondary, same-sex relationships being made for the opposite sex's enjoyment (Yaoi/Yuri often get this complaint), LGBT characters being killed off and the character is mostly comedic and played for laughs.

              I think the best gay character I've seen that was gay where it was not the focus or treated overly gag like it is Lt. Holt in Brooklyn 99.

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              • The Franky Tank
                The Franky Tank @SuburbanErrorist
                @SuburbanErrorist last edited by
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                This is directed at SuburbanErrorist and anyone else who may be lurking this thread that has the same mindset (I assume Threadban means a poster can't post, but can still see the thread/posts). If mods think this is off topic or not appropriate then I understand if you decide to delete this post.

                @SuburbanErrorist:

                Snip

                Since I have read all the posts, it's something I'm all too familiar with, as it's a very similar mindset I had not too long ago. The idea that Transgendered people had a mental illness and that they were quick to get angry over the slightest thing and that they needed chill out. At that time there was the idea that my "facts" gave a different story and with my set of beliefs my thoughts and opinions on the matter should be taken just as seriously. In the end though that was clearly wrong, and my "facts" were not facts at all and my beliefs were based on outdated reasoning.

                I have no idea what your basis is for believing what you do when it comes to transgendered people, whether it is religious like it was for me or something completely different. The main thing is that for one reason or another you have grown up and developed this idea that you currently believe in. People and ideas that you've been around for a long time have hardened your beliefs and what you come to believe is true and untrue. We all have done that and come to similar or different conclusions based on those experiences. The main thing is now with facing people with very different conclusions from you, and with that you have to decide if what you believe is true.

                If it's anything like me, the first reaction is to fight back strongly and say that your conclusion is the correct one. While nothing necessarily wrong with that, there is a critical step that many ignore or refuse to do. You need to step back and be willing to analyze yourself and decide whether or not your conclusion is wrong. This can be very hard, because for so much of your life you have been lead to believe certain things and it is now ingrained in you. This is where the long and arduous process starts. You will be very frustrated as you have shown and start thinking that you are being personally attacked because you have a different view. Along with that a lack of understanding the other side you will very easily say things that you don't deem offensive, but in actuality are very offensive to others.

                To keep things short, let me just make a suggestion. Instead of arguing what you consider facts and telling people that you think they are wrong or mentally ill for something, get to know them. It was very easy for me early on to just know someone as just a description, and with that just look at them with scorn. Then I actually got to know people beyond just their sexuality, gender, race, etc. Whether it was getting to know people in person or on this forum, I came to quickly see people as a person. Later I would find out something about them, but seeing them as a person I was not nearly as quick to judge. From there eventually I learned that A) There is nothing wrong with them, I was in the wrong and B) It really makes no difference at all. Whether they were LGBT or just practiced a different religion (or lack thereof), they were a person just like me.

                Once you come to realize that you will hopefully be more open to just learning about their experiences, and from learning you will lose certain preconceptions. It is not an easy process, and there will be a long time in which you are wrestling with your old beliefs and refuse to completely let go. Just continue to learn from others and have an open mind, and you can eventually figure out the truth.

                Noqanky 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • S
                  SunnyBlue @Zar
                  @Zar last edited by
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                  @Zar:

                  If anyone wants to discuss something more pleasant I have a question. I'm interested in including some LGBT characters in some comics, and I'm curious what you consider good LGBT characters? Do you have any examples of existing characters that you like, and/or things you'd like to see more of? And on the flip-side, what are things to avoid when writing such characters?

                  I think the problem with most LGBT character I have seen is that the they are treated as token character. They were just added in to make the cast more "diverse" or to create "fake progress". They are not treated like actual human with personality &feelings. They are just stereotype and being LGBT is their only characteristic. The gay/lesbian pairing don't feel organic and exist purely to cater to specific crowd.
                  I also dislike it when the author make the pairing into a big deal. LOOK AT HOW GAY/LESBIAN THEY R! It's obnoxious. It's not treated as two people falling in love with each other.

                  But there are some exception..
                  "Aristotle and Dante discover the secrets of the universe" by Benjamin Alire Saenz.
                  It's a story about two boys gradually realising their feelings for each other. I personally think it handle the gay theme in a mature & respectful manner.

                  Also, Yuri on ice. The " main couple" are two guys who love each other but it feels organic as their relationship develop throughout the episodes. I freakin love the show especially the OST!😆

                  Steven Universe is another one.

                  "The boy in the dress" is a story about a boy who crossdress.

                  Originally Posted by Count Mario

                  So we're going down this rabbit hole again.

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                  • S
                    shinpanman @SunnyBlue
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                    Great thread with informative and civil discussion for the most part. Have been lurking for some time and wanted to get some clarification on something I have been wondering about if anyone can answer:

                    Based on the discussion that has been going on so far, it seems like most of us feel that gender, sex, and sexual preference are all fluid but separate things. My understanding of gender is that it is the state of possessing traits typically attributed (seemingly arbitrarily) to one sex or the other and that it is basically a cultural and social construct. Given these assumptions, for those of us who feel that they may have the mind of someone of the other gender, how does this in some cases lead to wanting to alter one's sex? Is there a direct connection between feminine and masculine character traits and female and male anatomy?

                    I am genuinely curious and would like to hear about your experiences with this. I have been considered non gender conforming for most of my life but have never really felt any desire to change my body based on what our culture sees as man or woman. Obviously I can understand wanting to have a different body if one prefers the physical features of the other sex or simply wants to be seen as a certain sex by others but I guess the connection to a masculine or feminine personality isn't exactly clear to me. If gender is a spectrum, shouldn't any combination of behaviors and traits be acceptable for female or male?

                    Sorry if this seems like an ignorant question. I recognize that the gender binary is deeply entrenched and can't just be ignored but I am curious about the emotional aspect of this.

                    K Nolus 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Noqanky
                      Noqanky @The Franky Tank
                      @The Franky Tank last edited by
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                      @The:

                      This is directed at SuburbanErrorist and anyone else who may be lurking this thread that has the same mindset (I assume Threadban means a poster can't post, but can still see the thread/posts). If mods think this is off topic or not appropriate then I understand if you decide to delete this post.

                      Since I have read all the posts, it's something I'm all too familiar with, as it's a very similar mindset I had not too long ago. The idea that Transgendered people had a mental illness and that they were quick to get angry over the slightest thing and that they needed chill out. At that time there was the idea that my "facts" gave a different story and with my set of beliefs my thoughts and opinions on the matter should be taken just as seriously. In the end though that was clearly wrong, and my "facts" were not facts at all and my beliefs were based on outdated reasoning.

                      I have no idea what your basis is for believing what you do when it comes to transgendered people, whether it is religious like it was for me or something completely different. The main thing is that for one reason or another you have grown up and developed this idea that you currently believe in. People and ideas that you've been around for a long time have hardened your beliefs and what you come to believe is true and untrue. We all have done that and come to similar or different conclusions based on those experiences. The main thing is now with facing people with very different conclusions from you, and with that you have to decide if what you believe is true.

                      If it's anything like me, the first reaction is to fight back strongly and say that your conclusion is the correct one. While nothing necessarily wrong with that, there is a critical step that many ignore or refuse to do. You need to step back and be willing to analyze yourself and decide whether or not your conclusion is wrong. This can be very hard, because for so much of your life you have been lead to believe certain things and it is now ingrained in you. This is where the long and arduous process starts. You will be very frustrated as you have shown and start thinking that you are being personally attacked because you have a different view. Along with that a lack of understanding the other side you will very easily say things that you don't deem offensive, but in actuality are very offensive to others.

                      To keep things short, let me just make a suggestion. Instead of arguing what you consider facts and telling people that you think they are wrong or mentally ill for something, get to know them. It was very easy for me early on to just know someone as just a description, and with that just look at them with scorn. Then I actually got to know people beyond just their sexuality, gender, race, etc. Whether it was getting to know people in person or on this forum, I came to quickly see people as a person. Later I would find out something about them, but seeing them as a person I was not nearly as quick to judge. From there eventually I learned that A) There is nothing wrong with them, I was in the wrong and B) It really makes no difference at all. Whether they were LGBT or just practiced a different religion (or lack thereof), they were a person just like me.

                      Once you come to realize that you will hopefully be more open to just learning about their experiences, and from learning you will lose certain preconceptions. It is not an easy process, and there will be a long time in which you are wrestling with your old beliefs and refuse to completely let go. Just continue to learn from others and have an open mind, and you can eventually figure out the truth.

                      I don't know if the people this is directed at will see it, but regardless, thank you for this.

                      Incidents like what happened earlier hit me a bit harder than others, because while it's easy to defend and hit back against people who are being outright intolerant and belligerent, it is considerably tougher for me to deal with instances of people using "logic" and "facts" and "science" to still pursue a narrative of the validity of one's existence.

                      With the former it's easy to steel myself and hit back and defend, whereas the latter puts me in a position where to fight back is draining, repetitive back and forth that if present validates their points that it is an argument, whereas if not present validates their point that they have facts and others don't. So then it devolves into this whole feeling of frustration and helplessness. It tires me and makes me lose sight of the world having any redemption or any purpose outside of being a constant pain.

                      Seeing you post this helps tremendously. I don't get to vent a lot of dysphoria or anxiety or insecurity that I feel and I was in part cracking under the weight of this one, so thank you for giving it closure with a post that gives me back some hope.

                      –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                      @Zar:

                      That'd be an interesting approach, though probably difficult to write without personal experience.

                      Under a good writer who does research and studies the topic this could be interesting to read to me. I love situations where people have to imagine or put themselves in the shoes of someone else, so in part that difficulty and struggle to identify with the situation could provide a good learning moment for those who do not have the experience.

                      Zar MetaMario wolfwood 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • Zar
                        Zar @Noqanky
                        @Noqanky last edited by
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                        @Noqanky:

                        Under a good writer who does research and studies the topic this could be interesting to read to me. I love situations where people have to imagine or put themselves in the shoes of someone else, so in part that difficulty and struggle to identify with the situation could provide a good learning moment for those who do not have the experience.

                        That's a very inspiring viewpoint. Thank you. And I really mean it, when trying to write characters in vulnerable situations you always get that fear of getting it wrong, that you shouldn't stick your nose where it doesn't belong. But knowing that people might look forward to those stories anyway means a lot 🙂

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                        • K
                          Kubihige @shinpanman
                          @shinpanman last edited by
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                          @shinpanman:

                          snip

                          This! This is the question I've been wanting to ask, but wasn't quite sure how.

                          (And other things, but I can't quite articulate those either)

                          3DS FC: 3969-4669-8685

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                          • Nolus
                            Nolus
                            Warlord Mod
                            @shinpanman
                            @shinpanman last edited by
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                            @shinpanman:

                            Great thread with informative and civil discussion for the most part. Have been lurking for some time and wanted to get some clarification on something I have been wondering about if anyone can answer:

                            Based on the discussion that has been going on so far, it seems like most of us feel that gender, sex, and sexual preference are all fluid but separate things. My understanding of gender is that it is the state of possessing traits typically attributed (seemingly arbitrarily) to one sex or the other and that it is basically a cultural and social construct. Given these assumptions, for those of us who feel that they may have the mind of someone of the other gender, how does this in some cases lead to wanting to alter one's sex? Is there a direct connection between feminine and masculine character traits and female and male anatomy?

                            I am genuinely curious and would like to hear about your experiences with this. I have been considered non gender conforming for most of my life but have never really felt any desire to change my body based on what our culture sees as man or woman. Obviously I can understand wanting to have a different body if one prefers the physical features of the other sex or simply wants to be seen as a certain sex by others but I guess the connection to a masculine or feminine personality isn't exactly clear to me. If gender is a spectrum, shouldn't any combination of behaviors and traits be acceptable for female or male?

                            Sorry if this seems like an ignorant question. I recognize that the gender binary is deeply entrenched and can't just be ignored but I am curious about the emotional aspect of this.

                            I'll try to describe my feelings about this.

                            Okay, I've started to write it and it turned out my whole life's story somehow. Direct(er) answer to your question below.

                            ! In my childhood, I felt content with being a tomboy, and generally had no desire or even thoughts about having a different body. Then puberty came and with it, came a lot of "have to buy this, have the learn how to use that" and I started to drift farther away from that genderlessness I've enjoyed till then. At that time, I didn't realize this, although I said once in a while that "being a girl is such a bother". Then came a psychologist who was, like, a esoteric or I can't remember. He said if I want to be loved, I have to be like a real girl. After all, it's not a man's job to be pretty (Feel free to say "bullshit" out loud here). After that, I became sort of girly, with changing a big part of my wardrobe, letting my hair grow long etc.
                            It was… eh. I wasn't myself, and I just did it for attention and love, which I didn't get. The final blow was around my last year at high-school, where I realized the boy I was in love with didn't even have the curtesy to tell me he wasn't interested. My heart broke and I abandoned my girly way realizing it wasn't me.
                            ! Hair got cut down, wardrobe changed. At this point, I still haven't realized I was trans, and I mostly just got along by not really thinking about my clothes and such. I fell back into a sort of genderlessness (I will force this word as long as it takes), or gender-indifference. Then, I got my first boyfriend ever, and I kind of enjoyed how my body was (and still is) pretty beautiful. I have larger than average boobs that looks nice and a slender, but not too skinny figure. I enjoyed that some people told me I'm looking nice. I enjoyed the praise, even if it was for something I didn't really have a say in.
                            ! Then, disaster struck, we broke up (it wasn't a spectacular relationship anyway), and I fell into a very deep pit of depression, suicidal thoughts, cuttings and so on. I was devastated. Now I kind of realize it was partly because I had no stable picture of myself. I was not a whole person. I was broken in a way. My parts were all over the place and I struggled to find them and piece them together to make a comprehensive whole.
                            Thanks to my friends IRL, people here at APForums and a wonderful psychiatrist, I was able to fight back depression to a state where I was able to function well. That was 2 years ago (I think).
                            As I was getting by in life, I realized something was missing. Like, I functioned properly, but I lacked a deeper understanding of my own self. I didn't really know who I was.
                            I explored some possibilities. I slowly got back to being a tomboy, purchased my first pair of briefs (and haven't looked back since), my hair got shorter and shorter.
                            I was a tomboy again and I realized I enjoyed it. I was getting close to myself. I was back at my childhood state.
                            I was close, but still not there. At first, I tried being an alpha-female (this is a word from now on). Started working out and was all over a warrior spirit. Also became more confident and outspoken (which led to some arguments with some of my friends, but eventually, it worked out). I wasn't afraid anymore to speak my mind.And it still wasn't it.
                            ! Next came my second boyfriend who was also the first big one (in a sense that it was working quite nicely for a while). He told me he loved my boyishness and it was pretty nice.
                            Then I started to come to realization. I wasn't really happy. I was trying my damnedest, and everything was working really well, but it wasn't joy I felt. It was a sort of emptiness.
                            ! So came the thought "what if I have to go one step further?"
                            ! One step further meant thinking through my gender and sex thoroughly.

                            This is where gender-dypshoria comes in. It basically means there's a dissonance between one's sex and gender. It causes discomfort, distress and sometimes depression.
                            Discomfort and distress is a big thing here, since depression can have as many causes as there are stars in the sky.
                            Let's start with discomfort. Imagine it like having uncomfortable clothes on. They bother you constantly. Now imagine the clothes being your own body. Clothes can be taken off, you can feel "free" during showers, the night and so on. But you can't just take your body off. You can try to hide it even from yourself, getting non-revealing and non-skintight clothing that don't emphasize the thing that causes you such discomfort. But you always feel like something's wrong, even as a lingering thought at the back of your head, you know it's just not right. You see, most of the time I try not to think about my still ever present girlhood. Unfortunately, multiple times a day I encounter the reality be it in the shower, getting dressed for the day or even running after the goddamned bus.

                            Distress comes from this as you just can't seem to forget or go by 5 minutes without your body bothering you, even if your body's perfectly fine (healthy and so on).
                            I can best describe this as introducing another word (yay): self-image. How you see yourself, or more precisely, how you feel you look like in accord with your inner self. This isn't the same as imagining yourself stronger, prettier etc. "If I was stronger/thinner etc."
                            Using myself as an example: my self-image is a guy, kind of short (because hey, my height won't change), with a moustache, smiling a lot but determined and wanting to constantly learn, self-confident.

                            And what do I see when I look into the mirror? A gal that a lot of people see as a lesbian. Someone that kinda looks like a guy from behind, but when you peel off the layers, you can see boobs and such, so it's a girl.

                            And that's not me. And I don't say this because I think girls/women blow, or inferior to guys. No. I believe in gender-equality.
                            I say this because it does not and can never represent what I truly am inside.

                            You can say that it doesn't really matter, because as long as my friends/family/love and myself feel I'm a guy, I don't need to transition. And maybe that's true for some transgenders. And that's perfectly fine and there's nothing wrong with it.

                            I'm just different in that sense. I cannot feel like myself in this body I'm currently occupying. Even if my friends call me "guy" and we talk about pretty girls and drink beer, and even if I say manly stuff and they laugh and we all laugh and they treat me like guy, my body is not in the state it was meant to be in. I can be a tomboy, an amazon, a tough gal. But I am not. I am a guy, a man. And my body does not represent that as it should do.

                            So I've decided to transition to make my body as close to what's inside as possible. It won't ever be perfect. I don't care. This is a journey I took on and will see through till the end. I will become whole. My mind, my soul and my body will finally be aligned.

                            This is how I feel. I would also like to hear others' opinions and thoughts and feelings on this, so if anyone has the time, please share them with us. Even if our feelings differ, it won't make them invalid in any way.
                            And to those who are here to learn, as a non-transgender person, please, ask away. However, be prepared to challenge some things you know, and to be open and understanding. In turn, we'll be the same. Because hey, we're all in this together, and we can all help each other to understand all this~

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                            • MetaMario
                              MetaMario @Noqanky
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                              @Noqanky:

                              Under a good writer who does research and studies the topic this could be interesting to read to me. I love situations where people have to imagine or put themselves in the shoes of someone else, so in part that difficulty and struggle to identify with the situation could provide a good learning moment for those who do not have the experience.

                              I suppose this segues into my next question: is it inherently wrong for a cisgender person to portray a transgender person in a movie?

                              I ask because it feels like you can't win either way. You match the character to the person, then it could feel like they got the role purely because they were trans (one side complains).
                              And if not, then it would feel like the writers/directors/etc are crossing into "you're transphobic/you don't understand/etc." territory. (the other side complains)

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                              • CCC
                                CCC @MetaMario
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                                @MetaMario:

                                I suppose this segues into my next question: is it inherently wrong for a cisgender person to portray a transgender person in a movie?

                                I'm obviously coming from a cis-hetero male perspective (so anyone- please correct me if I'm wrong), but from what I've read, the issue is more the overall proportion of casting going towards cis actors, which misses great opportunities to have trans actors play trans characters. Similar to the issue with Asian characters (ScarJo as Kusanagi). It's less about individual roles and more about a concerning, age-old Hollywood trend of not giving roles to marginalized minorities. Besides…wouldn't the trans actor be better able to identify with the character a lot of the time, making for a better performance? You'll always have the Daniel Day Lewises out there who could literally play anyone or anything, but them aside, and all else equal...? That said, if an actor can do a great job and embrace the cause even when cameras aren't rolling, that's obviously admirable.

                                For my money, though, the side that "complains" about a trans actor playing a trans character can go suck an egg. If that's what they decide to complain about, they're clearly harboring nasty prejudices already, and nobody should be catering to their interests.

                                And the issue of casting in TV/movies seems kind of different than writing about a given experience. Casting is a zero-sum game (one person gets it, others don't), but you're not robbing anyone of any opportunity by taking the effort to put yourself in someone else's shoes with a piece of writing. The latter is a net positive if the writer succeeds to any degree.

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                                • MetaMario
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                                  @CCC:

                                  Besides…wouldn't the trans actor be better able to identify with the character a lot of the time, making for a better performance?

                                  That's what I'm leaning towards, so:

                                  For my money, though, the side that "complains" about a trans actor playing a trans character can go suck an egg. If that's what they decide to complain about, they're clearly harboring nasty prejudices already, and nobody should be catering to their interests.

                                  …I agree. Although my created side was harboring a perspective of not necessarily prejudice, but more of "well X is a pretty good actor, why not use [name]?"

                                  But it ties back into your point, that Hollywood doesn't give roles to the minority.

                                  And the issue of casting in TV/movies seems kind of different than writing about a given experience. Casting is a zero-sum game (one person gets it, others don't), but you're not robbing anyone of any opportunity by taking the effort to put yourself in someone else's shoes with a piece of writing. The latter is a net positive if the writer succeeds to any degree.

                                  This is true. You could easily have a talented _cis_gender writer make a stellar script for a performance where a _trans_gender actor makes it shine to life.

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                                  • Vectorkov
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                                    Here are some key learning points for an HR/employment-law training program at my place of work:

                                    • Discrimination based on an employee or applicant's perceived failure to conform to traditional gender stereotypes is prohibited by Title VII.
                                    • The EEOC and some courts have concluded that discrimination because a person is transitioning to a different gender is a form of unlawful sex stereotyping.
                                    • State and local laws may expressly prohibit discrimination based on gender identity or expression.
                                    • Employers should be mindful of issues that may arise at work for an employee who is in the transition process, provide appropriate support, and take steps to prevent harassment.
                                    • Federal agencies have determined that transgender employees should be allowed access to the common restrooms used by other employees of the same gender identity. State and local laws may contain similar requirements.
                                    • Such access should be allowed, regardless of negative reactions of other employees. Employers should take steps to prevent harassment.
                                    • Access to the common restroom used by other employees of the same gender identity does not depend on whether the transgender employee has had sex reassignment surgery, and an employer cannot inquire into such procedures as a pre-condition to restroom access.

                                    I don't remember seeing anything like this a few years ago, so I'm glad to see this type of awareness being taught at big companies.

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                                    • wolfwood
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                                      @Noqanky:

                                      Under a good writer who does research and studies the topic this could be interesting to read to me. I love situations where people have to imagine or put themselves in the shoes of someone else, so in part that difficulty and struggle to identify with the situation could provide a good learning moment for those who do not have the experience.

                                      Wouldn't that fall under some sort of appropriation or attempt to speak for X group?

                                      I mean a fairly common line of thought is that unless you are X, you can never understand what it's like to be X and should just listen.

                                      Empathy and putting oneself in anothers shoes doesn't quite square with the personal identity narrative. Or atleast it doesn't seem to.

                                      Not saying you were claiming that, just used your post for a jumping off point for a thought i had.

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                                        Appropriation in the colloquial sense describes the exploitation of a given culture or viewpoint without caring enough to understand and respect it.
                                        A writer taking the time to understand a certain perspective (presumably through research, interviews, and the like) shouldn't be criticized, imo. And if they do screw up and write something that's somehow offensive? Listen to the criticism and learn from it.

                                        The "just stop talking and listen" thing is more about literally talking over someone or claiming to understand their plight better than them, even with warped good intentions.

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                                          @CCC:

                                          Appropriation in the colloquial sense describes the exploitation of a given culture or viewpoint without caring enough to understand and respect it.
                                          A writer taking the time to understand a certain perspective (presumably through research, interviews, and the like) shouldn't be criticized, imo. And if they do screw up and write something that's somehow offensive? Listen to the criticism and learn from it.

                                          The "just stop talking and listen" thing is more about literally talking over someone or claiming to understand their plight better than them, even with warped good intentions.

                                          I think this is a good point. Just because someone isn't X, doesn't mean they can't learn enough to write from an X perspective. Sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's not.

                                          Want to read my webcomic?

                                          http://rulebusterbreaker.thecomicseries.com/

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                                          • Foolio
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                                            I think a lot of the sentiment though, at least that I've read, is why would you want someone who doesn't have the perspective when you can get a qualified person who does.

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                                              Would the movie The Danish Girl fall under the appropriation category? I wound up watching it because I literally had nothing else to do but sit with my roommate who put it on.

                                              She mentioned that they got a few things wrong about the couple's relationship as well as what ultimately led to her death. Seems weird to me to radically change the relationship she had with her wife and how she actually died.

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                                              • Serra Britt
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                                                @Foolio:

                                                I think a lot of the sentiment though, at least that I've read, is why would you want someone who doesn't have the perspective when you can get a qualified person who does.

                                                That's a good point too. I like to think that it usually doesn't happen, but I'm likely being naive there.

                                                Want to read my webcomic?

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                                                • CosmicDebris
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                                                  While I think we need more representation of minorities in acting, acting itself is, well, acting. That is the job of an actor, to accurately portray something they are not. An actor that has legitimate experience in something isn't necessarily going to be the best actor for the part. They might be, but there's a lot more to acting than just reliving a particular experience. Otherwise the choices would be extremely limited. What good actors do when faced with a role that they don't necessarily relate to is not only learn as much as they can about that experience but find whatever bridge or parallel that they can in their own lives in order to feel some sincere emotion about it. I've read from gay/trans actors that they actually prefer not to jump into those roles out of fear of being type cast.

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                                                  • wolfwood
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                                                    @CCC:

                                                    Appropriation in the colloquial sense describes the exploitation of a given culture or viewpoint without caring enough to understand and respect it.
                                                    A writer taking the time to understand a certain perspective (presumably through research, interviews, and the like) shouldn't be criticized, imo. And if they do screw up and write something that's somehow offensive? Listen to the criticism and learn from it.

                                                    The "just stop talking and listen" thing is more about literally talking over someone or claiming to understand their plight better than them, even with warped good intentions.

                                                    That begats the question if you can study and learn from a persons life and struggles to the extent of portraying the emotions and experiences that are underlying. Can you as a Y ever come close to understanding an X's world. Or will your best attempts at understanding/portraying always end up as some pale shadow with no substance or genuine emotion. Can you successfully manufacture and convey an experience is the gist of what i'm thinking about i guess.

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                                                    • Zar
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                                                      @CosmicDebris:

                                                      While I think we need more representation of minorities in acting, acting itself is, well, acting. That is the job of an actor, to accurately portray something they are not. An actor that has legitimate experience in something isn't necessarily going to be the best actor for the part. They might be, but there's a lot more to acting than just reliving a particular experience. Otherwise the choices would be extremely limited. What good actors do when faced with a role that they don't necessarily relate to is not only learn as much as they can about that experience but find whatever bridge or parallel that they can in their own lives in order to feel some sincere emotion about it. I've read from gay/trans actors that they actually prefer not to jump into those roles out of fear of being type cast.

                                                      I feel people should always reach out to see if there's any minority interested in filling in said role, but if nobody wants to (and nobody should be forced to) then it's alright to go to other actors. Of course it also depends on what kind of show it is - a documentary or a long-running TV show is better off going that extra step and get accurate representation, especially if it's a main character.

                                                      Your last sentence bring up an interesting point though. Whenever there's talk about LGBT+ representation in movies it's always about a role, not the actor. Sometimes it's easy to get stuck with the idea that just because someone is LGBT it means they have to play roles that are expressively LGBT… which might end up a bit stereotypical? So for example, while getting a transgender person to play a transgendered character is a good thing, isn't it even better if they get to play characters that are whatever gender and sexuality, with the focus being on their acting skills and not their identity? That's another form of representation.

                                                      And of course written/drawn works is a whole different thing. I personally feel it goes down to the point of the work, and how it's presented. An amateur artist has more room to fail than a famous company whose comics have lots of influence. A war presented in a fantasy world will get less criticism than a world war II historical movie. I could probably do a descent minority character if I put my mind to it, but a portrayal that's meant to be realistic and truly reach out to real people will require the help of someone with actual experience, maybe even some co-writing.

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                                                      • Noqanky
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                                                        @shinpanman:

                                                        Great thread with informative and civil discussion for the most part. Have been lurking for some time and wanted to get some clarification on something I have been wondering about if anyone can answer:

                                                        Based on the discussion that has been going on so far, it seems like most of us feel that gender, sex, and sexual preference are all fluid but separate things. My understanding of gender is that it is the state of possessing traits typically attributed (seemingly arbitrarily) to one sex or the other and that it is basically a cultural and social construct. Given these assumptions, for those of us who feel that they may have the mind of someone of the other gender, how does this in some cases lead to wanting to alter one's sex? Is there a direct connection between feminine and masculine character traits and female and male anatomy?

                                                        I am genuinely curious and would like to hear about your experiences with this. I have been considered non gender conforming for most of my life but have never really felt any desire to change my body based on what our culture sees as man or woman. Obviously I can understand wanting to have a different body if one prefers the physical features of the other sex or simply wants to be seen as a certain sex by others but I guess the connection to a masculine or feminine personality isn't exactly clear to me. If gender is a spectrum, shouldn't any combination of behaviors and traits be acceptable for female or male?

                                                        Sorry if this seems like an ignorant question. I recognize that the gender binary is deeply entrenched and can't just be ignored but I am curious about the emotional aspect of this.

                                                        Been wanting to respond to this for some time but life interrupts.

                                                        Most of what Nolus said is accurate for me too. Particularly liked the way he described the discomfort.

                                                        For me it was this thing where I kind of grew up assuming that the discomfort was a normal thing and that I just had to live with it until super later in life, and then I read up and realized it wasn't a thing you were just supposed to accept and could work towards changing.

                                                        While given the gender spectrum and all that it makes sense that one could be non-conforming or identify as a certain way without having to change their body, I kinda tried that and it didn't work. Even while not feeling dislike of my body, it's still a constant weight and realization to see that the world, and even yourself, will not treat you the same way. Which is a huge bummer given that the desire is to live a normal female life.

                                                        Hence the desire for connecting the identity with what the body reflects. Because while it sounds kinda superficial to want an ideal body and to be pretty and elegant and all that stuff, the fact is that a lot of that is simply aiming to reach a point where you yourself feel comfortable to interact with the world without discomfort.

                                                        @wolfwood:

                                                        Wouldn't that fall under some sort of appropriation or attempt to speak for X group?

                                                        I mean a fairly common line of thought is that unless you are X, you can never understand what it's like to be X and should just listen.

                                                        Empathy and putting oneself in anothers shoes doesn't quite square with the personal identity narrative. Or atleast it doesn't seem to.

                                                        Not saying you were claiming that, just used your post for a jumping off point for a thought i had.

                                                        That's the thing though, it's not about asking for the trans narrative to be appropriated or dominated by non-trans voices, but about encouraging non-trans creators to put work into investigating and empathizing with what the trans reality is.

                                                        All works of fiction are fiction to a degree, and as consumers we take that media and evaluate what fits or not. So as a whole for me all non-biographical fiction requires empathy, unless the writer is somehow writing only themselves in the novel which is really rare and usually a super obvious flaw when it happens.

                                                        Given this, I don't think it's wild of me to say that it should be fine for cis people to write about trans experiences, given they do their job as creators and research and study, stuff which will probably involve interviewing people and having consultants to ensure accuracy.
                                                        Not so much to speak for them, but to create a narrative that empowers their existence and normalizes that this is a thing that a lot of people can go through, and not being trans doesn't mean you are condemned to being completely unable to have empathy or understanding.

                                                        Regarding acting and representation, I think there have been cis actors and actresses who have done an excellent job with trans characters. But yea, if that casting choice is made while consciously denying trans actors/actresses the opportunity to those roles, then at that point it's questionable.
                                                        And then also I personally would be more interested in seeing more trans actors/actresses performing any role they are capable of instead of being considered only for performing trans characters.

                                                        Also disagree from a psychological point how you mention it as follows:

                                                        Can you as a Y ever come close to understanding an X's world. Or will your best attempts at understanding/portraying always end up as some pale shadow with no substance or genuine emotion. Can you successfully manufacture and convey an experience is the gist of what i'm thinking about i guess.

                                                        By virtue of their trade and skill, a good creator WILL do their best to develop substance and emotion. If not, then they are clearly not doing their job well, regardless of a trans/cis character or not.
                                                        It's also not about manufacturing… manufacturing gives the impression that it is about faking and selling an experience, which could be what some people do, but for artists it's going to be more about complete immersion into the role to the point you reach an understanding of the character. Stuff that involves research and introspection.

                                                        Long story short, I don't think these questions pertain much to whether a cis person can do a trans character or vice-versa, as much as they are questions regarding the quality of a performer/creator's voice.

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                                                        • CosmicDebris
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                                                          @Zar:

                                                          Your last sentence bring up an interesting point though. Whenever there's talk about LGBT+ representation in movies it's always about a role, not the actor. Sometimes it's easy to get stuck with the idea that just because someone is LGBT it means they have to play roles that are expressively LGBT… which might end up a bit stereotypical? So for example, while getting a transgender person to play a transgendered character is a good thing, isn't it even better if they get to play characters that are whatever gender and sexuality, with the focus being on their acting skills and not their identity? That's another form of representation.

                                                          I can't remember who it was exactly, but I was watching an interview with an actor who is gay that was playing a gay character in a TV show, and he was talking about how he avoided playing any LGBT roles until he felt he had proved he was capable of being a straight male lead, and he was happy about being able to take this role, but a bit nervous about it. I get the impression there is still a ways to go before Hollywood is entirely accepting of openly LGBT folk. They all say they're fine with it, but there are still some big name celebrities out there that prefer to stay in the closet.
                                                          I would imagine that for Transgender people, that acceptance of playing cis roles would be even more important to them. Some people don't want to be "trans" for life. They want to identify as a man or woman and not be questioned about it. Like I was bringing up before, a friend of mine who is a trans woman says a lot of friends who went through the full hormone and surgical process distanced themselves from her because she's an open, public trans figure and they don't want to be "read", that is, identified as trans. That was one of the things that made me a little sad, kind of like the first time I found out about bi-erasure and how hostile some members of the gay community can be towards bisexuals.

                                                          And of course written/drawn works is a whole different thing. I personally feel it goes down to the point of the work, and how it's presented. An amateur artist has more room to fail than a famous company whose comics have lots of influence. A war presented in a fantasy world will get less criticism than a world war II historical movie. I could probably do a descent minority character if I put my mind to it, but a portrayal that's meant to be realistic and truly reach out to real people will require the help of someone with actual experience, maybe even some co-writing.

                                                          There are quite a few movies out there that have straight people playing LGBT roles. Dallas Buyers Club is the most recent one I can think of. I haven't seen it, but it certainly got a lot of accolades. Whether such films are well thought of by the LGBT community, I'm not really sure, that would be something to research.

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                                                            MetaMario @CosmicDebris
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                                                            @CosmicDebris:

                                                            There are quite a few movies out there that have straight people playing LGBT roles. Dallas Buyers Club is the most recent one I can think of. I haven't seen it, but it certainly got a lot of accolades. Whether such films are well thought of by the LGBT community, I'm not really sure, that would be something to research.

                                                            I loved that movie, but I distinctly remember the role catching criticism….especially here.

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                                                              Kubihige @Noqanky
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                                                              @Noqanky:

                                                              For me it was this thing where I kind of grew up assuming that the discomfort was a normal thing and that I just had to live with it until super later in life, and then I read up and realized it wasn't a thing you were just supposed to accept and could work towards changing.

                                                              You say "grew up," and I've been wondering, is there generally an age when the disphoria starts to happen? Nolus mentioned it was around puberty, is that usually when it begins? Because every now and then something will pop up on Facebook where someone is talking about their 7-year old trans kid and I can't help but think that's too young for a child to know anything, much less something this significant.

                                                              And then I kind of go down the rabbit hold and start thinking how I would handle my kid coming out with this at that age, and would it be wrong to try confirming it through a psychologist?

                                                              3DS FC: 3969-4669-8685

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                                                              • CosmicDebris
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                                                                @MetaMario:

                                                                I loved that movie, but I distinctly remember the role catching criticism….especially here.

                                                                Was the criticism just on the idea of casting cis people, or the portrayals themselves?

                                                                @Kubihige:

                                                                You say "grew up," and I've been wondering, is there generally an age when the disphoria starts to happen? Nolus mentioned it was around puberty, is that usually when it begins? Because every now and then something will pop up on Facebook where someone is talking about their 7-year old trans kid and I can't help but think that's too young for a child to know anything, much less something this significant.

                                                                And then I kind of go down the rabbit hold and start thinking how I would handle my kid coming out with this at that age, and would it be wrong to try confirming it through a psychologist?

                                                                All kids are different. I'm sure you've heard stories from gay people about how they always kind of knew from the time they were little, and others didn't. Kids are smarter and more aware of themselves than adults traditionally give them credit for. My personal feeling is that kids should be allowed to explore gender identity from an early age. They may be trans or just non-binary noncomformists - I think that you probably don't want to come to any hard conclusions until they do reach puberty, and see where they go from there. There is definitely help and resources for parents in this situation.

                                                                I know from my very earliest memories, I was always a bit confused about gender and what gender I actually was. I was always more drawn to boys' toys, clothes, masculine roles in general, felt a bit of dysphoria going through puberty, and did have some thoughts about changing sex in high school. Unfortunately, during the time I grew up, nobody talked about this stuff at all. There was no internet. All I knew was that transsexual was a thing that existed, but it seemed kind of scary. Ultimately, I guess I just decided it's OK to be different and be who and what I am, as I am. Maybe it was more getting really heavy into religion at that time and I just tried too hard to squash it. It would have been nice to have the resources and community that is out there today to help me figure myself out rather than have been alone. It's definitely been an eye opening experience for me in the last 5 years or so.

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                                                                  Below Average @Kubihige
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                                                                  @Kubihige:

                                                                  You say "grew up," and I've been wondering, is there generally an age when the disphoria starts to happen?

                                                                  It all depends. Everybody's different. For me, some of my earliest memories are questioning my gender and gender roles in general. Usually manifesting from watching television as an impressionable youth and wanting to fill the female roles instead of the male ones. Though it wasn't until I was in high school that I started putting it into words and told a few people that I was a girl. Funnily enough, I had no idea about transsexualism or gender dysphoria or anything pertaining to the LGBT community other than "Gay people exist" when I started to come to the conclusion that I was female.

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                                                                  • Noqanky
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                                                                    @Kubihige:

                                                                    You say "grew up," and I've been wondering, is there generally an age when the disphoria starts to happen? Nolus mentioned it was around puberty, is that usually when it begins? Because every now and then something will pop up on Facebook where someone is talking about their 7-year old trans kid and I can't help but think that's too young for a child to know anything, much less something this significant.

                                                                    And then I kind of go down the rabbit hold and start thinking how I would handle my kid coming out with this at that age, and would it be wrong to try confirming it through a psychologist?

                                                                    I had the knowledge of being different since I can remember, but as a kid in am environment where that did not exist I just assumed it wasn't anything real or that could or should be followed up on. Throw in Catholic upbringing and repression gets pretty real.

                                                                    When puberty hit and I started going to schools with girls (was in an all-boys school until 6th grade or so) was when the reality hit me harder and dysphoria struck harder. So maybe it was puberty or just actual interaction with other kids in a gendered context that led to the feelings becoming obvious. Those were also the times where I began wanting to be seen as female and wear the right clothes and all, but it took a loooong ten years or more before I accepted it, opened up to myself and pursued it.

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                                                                    • MetaMario
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                                                                      @CosmicDebris:

                                                                      Was the criticism just on the idea of casting cis people, or the portrayals themselves?

                                                                      Bit of both.
                                                                      http://articles.latimes.com/2013/nov/01/news/la-ol-dallas-buyers-club-jared-leto-transgender-actors-20131101
                                                                      http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/jared-leto-heckled-accused-trans-677290

                                                                      I also remembering something about the character not correcting Ron on pronouns, but I could be wrong on that.

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                                                                        @Cyclone_Baroness:

                                                                        I think the best gay character I've seen that was gay where it was not the focus or treated overly gag like it is Lt. Holt in Brooklyn 99.

                                                                        I agree completely. I would add that I think gay characters in fiction like Holt, Loras Tyrell, Omar Little etc has done a lot to make people get over the more childish, homophobic prejudices. You could argue it goes for any medium really, Rob Halford, Freddie Mercury and even Gaahl from Gorgoroth definetly influenced their fanbases views in a positive way.

                                                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22kueYAG2lE

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                                                                        • Jabberwok
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                                                                          That's Loras Tyrell from the books, not the show. Being gay is his defining character trait in the show, unfortunately.

                                                                          The police chief in The Flash is gay too, isn't he? I think it was casually mentioned once or twice.

                                                                          If you get dunked on in the dream, you get dunked on in real life

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                                                                            @Jabberwok:

                                                                            The police chief in The Flash is gay too, isn't he? I think it was casually mentioned once or twice.

                                                                            He is. He casually mentions his male fiancee, I believe.

                                                                            Spoilers for DC shows:

                                                                            ! Curtis on Arrow is also gay and happily married (the current Arrow team is hetero-presumablyChristian-white-dude, black gay guy, black straight guy, Jewish guy, latino guy, girl, Felicity). I think he and his husband even kiss once, IIRC?
                                                                            ! Annnnd Sara Lance on DC's Legends of Tomorrow.
                                                                            ! Haven't watched enough of Supergirl to know about that one, but DC's track record with this wave of shows is decent, all things considered.

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                                                                            • Serra Britt
                                                                              Serra Britt @Kubihige
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                                                                              @Kubihige:

                                                                              You say "grew up," and I've been wondering, is there generally an age when the disphoria starts to happen? Nolus mentioned it was around puberty, is that usually when it begins? Because every now and then something will pop up on Facebook where someone is talking about their 7-year old trans kid and I can't help but think that's too young for a child to know anything, much less something this significant.

                                                                              And then I kind of go down the rabbit hold and start thinking how I would handle my kid coming out with this at that age, and would it be wrong to try confirming it through a psychologist?

                                                                              I think it kind of depends. I didn't have dysphoria "growing up" but I didn't have strict gender roles forced on me at home. My memory tells me I didn't think of myself as a "boy" just something I accepted as inevitable. I did fall in line around 7th grade so I could avoid bullying when I went to my new school for junior high. And then it came back at the end of high school, strongly, because stuff felt too wrong. I had no idea what transgender or transsexual meant until I was out of college though.

                                                                              So, I guess, I would say that there's no reason a child wouldn't know, but a neutral person would be able to find out pretty quickly if it was the child who wanted it, or just the parents being over eager. I know if I ever had a kid, I'd want to have it confirmed by someone other than me.

                                                                              Want to read my webcomic?

                                                                              http://rulebusterbreaker.thecomicseries.com/

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                                                                              • CosmicDebris
                                                                                CosmicDebris @MetaMario
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                                                                                @MetaMario:

                                                                                Bit of both.
                                                                                http://articles.latimes.com/2013/nov/01/news/la-ol-dallas-buyers-club-jared-leto-transgender-actors-20131101
                                                                                http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/jared-leto-heckled-accused-trans-677290

                                                                                I also remembering something about the character not correcting Ron on pronouns, but I could be wrong on that.

                                                                                Seems like only the former, in these particular articles. The author of the first one admits to not having seen the film.
                                                                                I think Leto makes a good point; you aren't going to tell a gay actor that they aren't allowed to play a straight part. I think the bigger issue right now is that there just aren't a whole lot of trans actors, at least not ones that have star power. Of course, you have to start casting them to get them star power. One of those articles mentions it's no longer acceptable to cast cross race, but we kind of do still do that - look at how often Hollywood "whitewashes" properties like those from Japan. The reason why they do that is basically the same dilemma; they want star power, but they haven't made enough Asian people big stars. I actually am more annoyed by that, but neither is really anything quite so terrible as "Charlie Chan" casting or "blackface".

                                                                                On the pronouns, I think you have to take into consideration that the movie takes place in 1985 and was originally written in the early 90's. We have definitely become much more sensitive about pronouns in the last decade. I haven't seen the movie so I don't know what the context is.

                                                                                Incidentally, they cast a trans actor in a Doctor Who episode last season, but she played a cis female.

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                                                                                • MetaMario
                                                                                  MetaMario @CosmicDebris
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                                                                                  @CosmicDebris:

                                                                                  \I think Leto makes a good point; you aren't going to tell a gay actor that they aren't allowed to play a straight part.

                                                                                  I was thinking of the inverse: a straight person playing a gay person, like Sean Penn in Milk. Did the gay community give him flak?

                                                                                  i honestly don't know if Penn is gay lol

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                                                                                  • wolfwood
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                                                                                    @MetaMario:

                                                                                    I loved that movie, but I distinctly remember the role catching criticism….especially here.

                                                                                    I can sort of recall Crystalship and her friends going out on the streets and picketing that film.

                                                                                    At the very least i remember there being alot of pissed off AP:ers

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                                                                                    • MetaMario
                                                                                      MetaMario @wolfwood
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                                                                                      @wolfwood:

                                                                                      I can sort of recall Crystalship and her friends going out on the streets and picketing that film.

                                                                                      At the very least i remember there being alot of pissed off AP:ers

                                                                                      Whoa. Definitely remember some heated words at the least.

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                                                                                      • CosmicDebris
                                                                                        CosmicDebris @MetaMario
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                                                                                        @MetaMario:

                                                                                        I was thinking of the inverse: a straight person playing a gay person, like Sean Penn in Milk. Did the gay community give him flak?

                                                                                        i honestly don't know if Penn is gay lol

                                                                                        Who knows in Hollywood, really. Robin Williams also played a gay man in a movie some time ago, I don't remember any flak being given, but then I only just now heard of people being upset over Dallas Buyers Club.

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                                                                                        • wolfwood
                                                                                          wolfwood
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                                                                                          @CosmicDebris
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                                                                                          @CosmicDebris:

                                                                                          Who knows in Hollywood, really. Robin Williams also played a gay man in a movie some time ago, I don't remember any flak being given, but then I only just now heard of people being upset over Dallas Buyers Club.

                                                                                          The birdcage was twenty years ago though. Finding offense in things wasn't quite as big a pass-time as it is now.

                                                                                          And even if it had been they didn't have the platform to voice it to the world back in 1996.

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                                                                                          • CosmicDebris
                                                                                            CosmicDebris @wolfwood
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                                                                                            @CosmicDebris:

                                                                                            Who knows in Hollywood, really. Robin Williams also played a gay man in a movie some time ago, I don't remember any flak being given, but then I only just now heard of people being upset over Dallas Buyers Club.

                                                                                            @wolfwood:

                                                                                            The birdcage was twenty years ago though. Finding offense in things wasn't quite as big a pass-time as it is now.

                                                                                            And even if it had been they didn't have the platform to voice it to the world back in 1996.

                                                                                            Wow, it was that long ago already? I'm getting old.
                                                                                            But yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at with DBC's timeline, I think people were trying to view something that happened over 30 years ago with today's cultural lenses.

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                                                                                            • Cyclone_Baroness
                                                                                              Cyclone_Baroness @MetaMario
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                                                                                              @MetaMario:

                                                                                              I was thinking of the inverse: a straight person playing a gay person, like Sean Penn in Milk. Did the gay community give him flak?

                                                                                              i honestly don't know if Penn is gay lol

                                                                                              I don't think Hollywood gavd the guy who played Will from Will & Grace much flak. But that show had a lot of issues. It broke some barriers but portayed gay people the way Tyler Perry plays old black ladies.

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                                                                                              • CosmicDebris
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                                                                                                • Mr. Zoro
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                                                                                                  Y'know, come to think of it, I imagine that there was quite a distaste towards One Piece's Okama. At the time of reading it, I didn't have a sensitivity to that kind of representation in fiction, and just found it humorous.

                                                                                                  I don't think I was very active in AP around the time, but am I correct in assuming a lot of LGBT OP fans weren't happy about that?

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                                                                                                    Below Average @Mr. Zoro
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                                                                                                    @Mr.:

                                                                                                    Y'know, come to think of it, I imagine that there was quite a distaste towards One Piece's Okama. At the time of reading it, I didn't have a sensitivity to that kind of representation in fiction, and just found it humorous.

                                                                                                    I don't think I was very active in AP around the time, but am I correct in assuming a lot of LGBT OP fans weren't happy about that?

                                                                                                    Honestly, I love them. Bon Clay and Ivankov may be glaring stereotypes but they're well developed and love-able glaring stereotypes.

                                                                                                    The Sanji on Kammabakka thing though… There be problems.

                                                                                                    I make silly pictures. Twitter Tumblr DeviantArt Instagram

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                                                                                                    • Mr. Zoro
                                                                                                      Mr. Zoro @Below Average
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                                                                                                      @Below:

                                                                                                      The Sanji on Kammabakka thing though… There be problems.

                                                                                                      Ah, should've clarified. This is the main part I wanted to focus on. Agreed on the Bon Clay and Ivankov, though!

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                                                                                                      • Cyclone_Baroness
                                                                                                        Cyclone_Baroness @CosmicDebris
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                                                                                                        He is? That's sort of surprising. And lol. No it doesn't help.

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