This thread is for the discussion of LGBT issues.
Here are some basic rules:
1.) No name-calling.
2.) Try not to get mad.
3.) Try to put yourself in your opponent's shoes and learn something from his/her views.
You can't force someone to share your views, all you can do is explain them.
So, my identity, my life, the very center of who I am as a person… the very core of my being.... is a thing that is up for debate....
Got it.
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But don't worry Rin.
When someone walks in here to question our existence, they can't call us names. But we also have to put ourselves in their shoes.
It's insulting already that the whole situation exists. Having a thread like this that validates what the bigots say on the other side of the fence as something worth considering just makes me sick.
I don't think it's a bad idea to have a place to address misconceptions and hatred towards the LGBT community. It could be useful to really have a place to address these topics in full, either as news or from questions from the community. I know I didn't learn that much about sex and gender issues until college, for instance, and I still get some of the more specific terms mixed up.
Calling it "debate" is wrong though. "LGBT discussion" or just "The LGBT thread" would be better.
Precisely that. This thread is noticeably not meant for discussion of LGBT issues or assisting people or informing or anything of that sort. (wasn't there a sexuality thread not long ago that also had stuff dealing with lgbt concerns anyway?)
It's debate, and its birth from the indecision thread implies that the whole bathroom laws issues and things like that merit **debate**. Instead of just being callled out as the ultimate bullshit that they are.
I considered "The LGBT thread- Open your mind and stop subscribing everyone to world views, you bigot" but that seemed a bit too long and wouldn't create the welcoming environment needed for productive discussion.
why would you need to debate them tho, maybe just talk about them?
edit: oh people are already talking about the name of the thread. well it's a dumb name. that's my stance. fight me
I can't see this ever going anywhere, it's got willful misunderstanding written all over it.
yea, someone willfully misunderstanding that the people insulting our existence and explaining it to us as insanity deserve our respect and attention.
But don't worry Rin.
When someone walks in here to question our existence, they can't call us names. But we also have to put ourselves in their shoes.
You're right. When I do that, I finally see that I'm just a mentally ill man and society is cosigning on my illness.
It's all so clear to me now.
And the Overwhelming medical and professional consensus saying being transgender is a thing must be wrong. It's not like the American Psychological association hasn't done years of actual study on the issue and found Transgender people and their identities are entirely and completely valid.
It's opened my eyes to the fact that there really is no Widespread Wave of Violence and sometimes Murder of Trans people.
And the Bathroom thing, I mean, it's not like The data as well as the testimonies of several experts from states with Pro-Trans laws on the books have come out saying the whole uproard is Completely False and Ridiculous. It's also not like it's actually MORE dangerous for Trans people to use the bathroom aligning with their sex assigned at birth or anything.
If we protect transgender people, Predators will pretend to be trans and will get off Scott free attacking people in bathrooms. Just like that Guy in Chicago. Chicago has a Pro-trans law on the books and did at the time this occurred, and a Pervert went in there and tried to attack a little girl! It doesn't matter that he never once claimed to be trans and that the Pro-trans law didn't stop police from being able to respond in time to save the little girl, nor has it prevented him from seeing jail time…
It's Scary! Because.... The Children! Please Think of the Children!
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Hey Robo, would you mind editing the OP to remove "debate" and tailor it to meet complaints too? Thanks.
If you get dunked on in the dream, you get dunked on in real life
Hey Robo, would you mind editing the OP to remove "debate" and tailor it to meet complaints too? Thanks.
its already changed
 
Stop being such a factician rin. People are feeling scared, that's why has to be considered.
Remember when white people were scared of black people going in the same restroom? I bet their fear was also completely valid and worth defending an entire system of prejudice over. I mean, it must be SO scary going into a bathroom not knowing what junk people have.
That's levels of scary we don't deal with. All we have to worry about is "will anyone in this restroom out me/persecute/harass me because I don't look like them?" That's shits and giggles in comparison.
So back in the Election thread when all this was going down, Noqanky brought the fact about how most people wouldn't be able to understand the differences between Sex and Gender. What are the differences, because as far as I am aware Sex is considered more your physical appearance and Gender is more of a mental state? I know that this is a complex topic and it may not be something that can be explained, but any little bit you can tell me I would be interested to learn about. That or if you know of articles that are good to read for learning I can take that as well.
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@The:
So back in the Election thread when all this was going down, Noqanky brought the fact about how most people wouldn't be able to understand the differences between Sex and Gender. What are the differences, because as far as I am aware Sex is considered more your physical appearance and Gender is more of a mental state? I know that this is a complex topic and it may not be something that can be explained, but any little bit you can tell me I would be interested to learn about. That or if you know of articles that are good to read for learning I can take that as well.
Sex is biological. Gender is more the cultural aspects that have been born of and associated with those. It is how we view ourselves and present ourselves with regards to those ideas.
Sex is penis or vagina. Gender is masculine or feminine.
@The:
So back in the Election thread when all this was going down, Noqanky brought the fact about how most people wouldn't be able to understand the differences between Sex and Gender. What are the differences, because as far as I am aware Sex is considered more your physical appearance and Gender is more of a mental state? I know that this is a complex topic and it may not be something that can be explained, but any little bit you can tell me I would be interested to learn about. That or if you know of articles that are good to read for learning I can take that as well.
Here's a pretty neutral article on the topic. It gets into the bare bone facts.
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How about we use this thread to discuss the VP nominee Pence, and today, flat out stating Trump is an anti-LGBT presidential candidate, and the horrible, horrible things Pence himself has done to LGBT peoples since his time as a politician, including: wanting Conversion Therapy and Camps to be a legal thing (also making tax payers pay for it), and calling transsexuals "abominations" more than once.
I made this thread in the hopes that people would discuss LGBT issues and learn more about them, as well as identify false information used to oppress LGBT people. It was never my intention to create a place specifically for hating people. If you guys really want, I can delete it, but I think it would be a wasted opportunity.
Sex is biological. Gender is more the cultural aspects that have been born of and associated with those. It is how we view ourselves and present ourselves with regards to those ideas.
Sex is penis or vagina. Gender is masculine or feminine.
Here's a pretty neutral article on the topic. It gets into the bare bone facts.
Thanks for the clarification Wagomu, and really interesting read there Rin. Beyond just the basic concepts some of the historical stuff was something new, so that was pretty interesting. Really it comes down to something I've come to realize, which is how strict labelling has become with so many people. They are used to things being within a norm, and if you fit within a certain label such as male or female many expect you to act a certain way. So now when they see someone not fit into that it feels wrong to them and they refuse to see that labels are just something to make quick descriptions, and don't ultimately make a person behave a certain way.
I should clarify that gender encompasses male and female and not just masculine or feminine. The latter's just easier to think about if you're unfamiliar with the concept. You can definitely have feminine male and masculine female, though, regardless of biological sex.
yea, someone willfully misunderstanding that the people insulting our existence and explaining it to us as insanity deserve our respect and attention.
I realize that Robo carries with him a certain implication, and that Horizon's colossal dickbaggery probably has your emotional tolerance at it's rawest, but both you and Rin literally went into this thread firing hard at things that were, and have, at no point been uttered in here. Maybe this is that autistic engineering part of my brain acting up here, but the way i read it this thread was doomed from the start by Robo's existance, because of your perception of his intentions.
I realize that Robo carries with him a certain implication, and that Horizon's colossal dickbaggery probably has your emotional tolerance at it's rawest, but both you and Rin literally went into this thread firing hard at things that were, and have, at no point been uttered in here. Maybe this is that autistic engineering part of my brain acting up here, but the way i read it this thread was doomed from the start by Robo's existance, because of your perception of his intentions.
The thread originally used the word "Debate" and was stated in the first post to be a continuation of the conversation that went on in the Indecision thread. The general idea being to just get that talk out of there.
Noqanky and I were insulted by that conversation and responded in kind, but the point is it didn't come from nowhere.
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I don't think there's anything worth arguing in the intentions of the thread, so long as it's changed and we repurpose it as such. I'm not sure what you folks want to use this thread for, but if this is just going to be arguments about the title and specific members, then it might be better off closed and forgotten.
So I guess let's just use this thread to discuss LGBT issues and promote understanding for anyone who has questions?
What rin said. He already clarified to us what he meant to do and we have clarified to him how the situation this was born out of wasn't exactly a case of one person being rational and ganged upon for it and more of a case of someone being outright insulting getting hammered for it.
The original phrasing and expressed intent of the thread was most definitely insulting from a trans perspective, and if you want to know why I can clarify more about why that is. But overall, I think it's safe to say we've moved beyond that, and Franky Tank demonstrates what this thread can actually be about, namely exchange of information.
May I ask a question?
*Do all LGBTs agree with each category of the LGBT spectrum?
I think of that sometimes. May I hear some views?
May I ask a question?
*Do all LGBTs agree with each category of the LGBT spectrum?
I think of that sometimes. May I hear some views?
Good question! There's actually a lot of conflict between lines that does exist. There's cases of the gay and lesbian communities being intolerant of the bi community, or any of those being intolerant of the trans community. The resolution of conflicts in one community doesn't necessarily help the others either, and there was a lot of people in the trans community voicing concerns that the others may forget about them when gay marriage was passed in America. These are issues that are easy to miss from outside of these communities and definitely something that should be acknowledged.
Someone else can give a more detailed perspective, but off the top of my head I know there's a fair bit of discrimination against trans and queer people by gays and lesbians, actually. Part of it comes from a conflict of sexuality, where many gays accuse trans people doing something wrong by changing their sex/gender instead of just liking people of the same sex. Another aspect comes from how gays and lesbians are more mainstream and sometimes focus on their own needs instead of the full spectrum's, similar to how some black feminists feel secondary to white feminists.
If you get dunked on in the dream, you get dunked on in real life
May I ask a question?
*Do all LGBTs agree with each category of the LGBT spectrum?
I think of that sometimes. May I hear some views?
That's an interesting question. I think as a whole most LGBT people know that yes, there are lesbian, gay, bi and trans people and yes, they do exist and are not "pretending" or things like that. And for the most part the term "queer" is one a lot of people are taking ownership of as it also includes other identities such as agender, pansexual, asexual, etc etc.
I HAVE heard of cases of lesbian women who don't consider trans women to be women and things like that, so given that I assume that there's people on the queer side sexuality spectrum who don't agree with the people on the queer side of the gender identity spectrum. But overall? I think all under this umbrella have the shared experience of dealing with bullshit and persecution from others enough not to do it ourselves.
There's also a lot of discussion about what it MEANS to be lgbt. I have little experience myself in the LGB area though, since for all intents and purposes I am straight in terms of sexual preference. Someone else could be better equipped to answer that.
On the T side, there's things like whether the goal of a trans individual should be to pass as the desired sex or to stand out and embrace being trans, or whether surgical alteration should be a goal or something considered as further oppression from having to belong in a binary society, … lots of interesting discussions that arise when you start thinking about what categories mean and what a spectrum as opposed to a binary entails for society as a whole.
Myself, my take on things is I know who I am and what I want to be so I'll deal with that. If other people in the LGBTQ+ umbrella feel differently or disagree, that's on them, as long as people let me and the people I care about live in peace and comfort I don't mind.
So I guess let's just use this thread to discuss LGBT issues and promote understanding for anyone who has questions?
I agree. We'd already kinda moved on but I was mostly responding to Wolfwood bringing it back up.
May I ask a question?
*Do all LGBTs agree with each category of the LGBT spectrum?
I think of that sometimes. May I hear some views?
MOST do, but not all. There are some more radical offshoots who want to split up the LGBT grouping or change it altogether.
Some recent Examples are from some Trans Exclusionary Radical LGB folks who wanted to "Drop the T".
The majority of LGBT folks tho realize that, while Sexuality and Gender Identity might not be the same, there IS plenty of overlap and that the people attacking us are all attacking us because of the same prejudices. That being that "Men are Men and should act THIS way. Women are Women and should act THIS way." etc.
We all defy gender norms in one way or another, which is why we're Stronger Together.
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similar to how some black feminists feel secondary to white feminists.
Yeah, those racial issues intersect a lot in the LGBT communities as well.
Wait, I thought Queer was just a derogatory term for homosexuals, or has that changed over the years?
@The:
Wait, I thought Queer was just a derogatory term for homosexuals, or has that changed over the years?
Long story short, the LGBT community is trying our damnedest to take it back. lol
Also, about the "LGBT Distinction" topic.
There are actually people within the gay Community who (wrongly) think of Bisexuality as false.
The general idea is that Bi people are "Self Hating Gays" that are "Pretending to be half straight to be accepted".
Kinda sad when people who should be allies are at each others throats.
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Ok, so Queer means identities outside of cis-heterosexual which for some time has been more of a derogatory term if I'm understanding this right from Rin's and Noqanky's posts.
@Wagomu and @Jabberwok
I sincerely suspected these conflicts, especially when I attempt to put myself in the shoes of categories in the array.
It's evident as Wagomu shared that Ls&Gs seem to have more prominent coverage, especially with the passing of permitted marriage in some states and countries. I would think that Bs&Ts wouldn't worry too much as it seems they are covered both ways. To me, they seem to be a subset of LG and an intersection group between LG and Straights. (Dunno if I am making clear sense).
And @Jabberwok and everyone else on sexuality: What gender is a Bi person?
That is a good one to bring up. Bisexual people get a ton of shit for not "picking a side", it's such bullshit.
Asexuals, pansexuals, as well as gender non-conforming people… we're talking about a lot of individuals who receive routine discrediting and disdain for not "picking a side and moving on", which goes to show just how little understanding there is overall for non-binaries when it comes to these things. Which is ultimately a psychological effect of the way our brains are taught to categorize and process information from childhood.
Angelos: Bi as in bisexual could be any gender. Sexuality does not have to align with gender identity.
Bi as in bigender is when someone moves back and forth between a predominantly male and a predominantly female gender identity. There's also genderfluid for those who move and change across the gender spectrum without focusing on the established binary only.
And @Jabberwok and everyone else on sexuality: What gender is a Bi person?
Any gender.
The point of being Bi is that you're attracted to both of the two traditional members of the Gender Binary (Male and Female)
It says nothing about the Bi person in question's actual gender.
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I-Isn't there a A on the set? Stands for aromantic or asexual?
(PS. thanks for this thread, I have many questions)
I-Isn't there a A on the set? Stands for aromantic or something?
As far as I know there is asexual, and I heard that for the most part is they don't have sexual interest in anyone, but they can still be romantic in other ways.
I'm glad this thread turned into something good.
I'm learning something.
Everything's Eventual…
I-Isn't there a A on the set? Stands for aromantic or asexual?
(PS. thanks for this thread, I have many questions)
It can be a A, but most people use LGBT because it is shorter and it is the most well known term. The most inclusive acronym a I've ever seen is QUILTBAG.
I-Isn't there a A on the set? Stands for aromantic or asexual?
(PS. thanks for this thread, I have many questions)
Aromantic isn't exactly part of it, but it's a thing.
The A is Asexual which is basically… Nothing sexually arouses these folks. They aren't attracted to ANYONE, male, female, nobody. There are, however, folks on this side who ARE Romantic. They can form loving caring, "Romantic" relationships with people.
They just aren't physically attracted to them.
The opposite of the coin is the Aromantics. They don't or can't form emotionally romantic connections and basically exist on the notion that Sex is just supposed to be fun and feel good. Admittedly, I have little experience with Aromantics tho, so someone else may be able to fill in on that better.
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…which goes to show just how little understanding there is overall for non-binaries when it comes to these things.
This line really stood out for me after your premise and comments after. That's the first thing everyone needs to accept before going on to seek understanding on the discussions at hand.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Any gender.
The point of being Bi is that you're attracted to both of the two traditional members of the Gender Binary (Male and Female)
It says nothing about the Bi person in question's actual gender.
You're right DemonRin
It can be a A, but most people use LGBT because it is shorter and it is the most well known term. The most inclusive acronym a I've ever seen is QUILTBAG.
Wait wait, I'm pretty sure I've seen a + attached to Q or A on LBGTQA. What's up with that?
I do apologize in advance for being an ignorant cisgender pleb, but it's all in a good place. I'm eager to learn.
EDIT: Thank you Rin for explaining the A!
Aromantic isn't exactly part of it, but it's a thing.
The A is Asexual which is basically… Nothing sexually arouses these folks. They aren't attracted to ANYONE, male, female, nobody. There are, however, folks on this side who ARE Romantic. They can form loving caring, "Romantic" relationships with people.
I identify as asexual and for me it doesn't mean lacking in sexuality at all. Like a lot of asexual folk like myself still find attraction to sexual acts and stuff, but don't really enjoy partaking in those acts at all. There's also a lot of asexual folk in kink communities and such, who still enjoy bodily or psychological sensations as well, without really sexualizing them. It's because of this that I can consider myself bi as well, since I find attraction across genders, just don't like engaging in it.
Wait wait, I'm pretty sure I've seen a + attached to Q or A on LBGTQA. What's up with that?
I do apologize in advance for being an ignorant
cisgender pleb, but it's all in a good place. I'm eager to learn.EDIT: Thank you Rin for explaining the A!
The + is to take into account any of the possible identities not included in the overarching acronym. The idea is also to understand that just like a lot of us don't like being placed into neat little boxes we were given, it stands to reason that people under this umbrella may themselves not like to be put into another tight box that doesn't consider other possible aspects of their identity.
There ain't even a P in the acronym yet even with pansexuality becoming more prevalent OTL
at least, the + implies it.
It's a damn shame that the community can be so divided sometimes, though. Worst I've seen in places can be summed up as "Welcome to the LGBT, where the B is made up and the T doesn't matter"
Thankfully, my college community has pretty active LGBT+ services, even if i already sussed out my identity issues it's nice to see people helped out with theirs in a good place.
Set Art by Daily Rowlet
The + is to take into account any of the possible identities not included in the overarching acronym. The idea is also to understand that just like a lot of us don't like being placed into neat little boxes we were given, it stands to reason that people under this umbrella may themselves not like to be put into another tight box that doesn't consider other possible aspects of their identity.
Well that makes sense - someone may go "hey, I don't exactly resonance with any of these"….well, letters. No one wants to feel left out.
