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    Chapter 842: The Power of Fullness

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    • Long John Silvers Rayleigh
      Long John Silvers Rayleigh @Jabra
      @Jabra last edited by
      Long John Silvers Rayleigh
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      @Jabra:

      Zoro has a bad sense of direction, it's a flaw he can't do anything about. He isn't intentionally choosing the wrong path, his brain simply can't keep up. It's a legitimate weakness.

      And yeah you are right, Luffy intentionally put the crew in danger on Saobody by punching Charlos. But do you also remember what happened after? He realized that he was biting off more than he could chew, which lead to tons of tears and a freaking 2 year timeskip. And that timeskip didn't only make him much more powerful, but also a lot more level-headed compared to his Paradise self.

      It's pretty much what some people wanted to see for Sanji as well. Either an extreme explanation why he has such a hardcore stance towards not hitting women, or SOME sort of development, similar to Luffy being a tad more cautious when it comes to picking fights (like trying to not fight Big Mum right now) or Usopp showing courage not only when it comes to his nakama, but also to outsiders like the Dwarves.

      Thankfully the arc isn't over yet, there is still a chance for Sanji to emanzipate himself from Zeff (at least to a certain degree), but if this should be all Oda has to add when it comes to Sanji's chivalry then he practically established him as a second-rate Straw Hat. Someone who puts his (or Zeff's) principles over the life of his friends - something no other Straw Hat does. They would all go through hell for each other, no matter the situation. No ifs and buts.

      If not just zeff's principles but his life, he flat out threatened to kil himself and this has been burned into sanji's brain. I will agree we should see more than this or it will be lacking but the explanation made me cut oda a little more slack.

      Also stephen noted how sanji's line differs from zeff's when he retells it so that might be something to look out for, I wonder if Zeff will show up again in flashback or IDK the possibility exists they kidnapped him anyway and say something to him. As he saw his devotion to zeff was something zeff saw as a problem in baratie. So if he divorces himself from that can provide a lot of character development

      Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:

      So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?

      H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler

      Spoiler:

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      • SuburbanErrorist
        SuburbanErrorist @K. Kira XXIII
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        @Tamiel:

        We did, it just gets lost between posters being upset at the people that are mad at those that are angry about Sanji's quirk. I even gave the example of the tea part. Which at best I got a: It is Sanjis Quirk, which I compared to Ussop's cowardice quirk and how it did not seem to be a problem when shooting down the flag. Something that normally would make him freak out.

        I enjoyed what Zeff did, and brings a nice circle to Sanji's past with him, and how he ended getting a family that cared. I have said that, I can even look past Sanji's thingy because of it. It is still hard to swallow the fact he was drinking tea with Kalifa "for the quirky lulz".Jimbe needs to come in with Pekoms and strike a pose.

        Maybe Sanji can change, anyway,

        Usopp shot down the government flag but keep in mind he was also wearing a mask and under a different name.

        Probably when the time calls Sanji will hit a woman, I have mixed feelings of whether I would be surprised or not if he did by the end of the series.

        K. Kira XXIII 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • Monkey King
          Monkey King @Audity
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          @Audity:

          Hi, Monkey King. How are you? I'm Audity. Pleased to meet you! I've been around for a long time. I see you have been around for quite some time as well.

          You actually don't see how long I've been around. Noobie.

          • "Buzzwords such as: " Does this imply that I should have stated all the buzz words I was thinking of, in clear form? I thought my post was clear what I was referring to (sexism being the only thing talked about, in _this thread).

          Sexism is a buzz word?_ That's just plain factually wrong. Like nevermind anything else. > • "Parroting" is the opposite of what I was trying to achieve. I've thought long and hard about certain aspects of these topics, mostly how they are politically charged. If anything I feel the youth of this generation have a very big problem of doing the parroting compared to me, at the behest of some left/right agenda, that is the true opposite of level-/clear-headed thinking.
          Having unthinking reactions to hearing stuff that makes a person uncomfortable is where the parroting comes from. So yeah, you're exactly in line with those people.
          And also probably of the same generation in spite of taking a tone suggesting otherwise.
          > • One of my main points is that people should consider a wider variety of words, and I even said what those words were: ethnicity/species/race/stereotypes/racism/sexism (also prejudice/bigotry can fit there, too, even tribalism perhaps). None of those things are synonyms except for kinda sorta prejudice/bigotry.
          Some words are very broad in meaning, tough.

          > • People get far too offended over little things, and that's one of the most destructive reactions to repeat ad nauseum. Much like getting offended over people getting offended. Oh wait? That's totally different and not at all the same and capable of the same flaws, and over-sensitivity, and lack of thinking through one's thoughts before opening one's mouth…. oh but actually it really really is.

          • "Even though there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptualizations of race are untenable,
          While some researchers sometimes use the concept of race to make distinctions among fuzzy sets of traits, others in the scientific community suggest that the idea of race often is used in a naive[11] or simplistic way,[17] and argue that, among humans, race has no taxonomic significance by pointing out that all living humans belong to the same species, Homo sapiens, and subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens.[18][19]" —Wikipedia

          None of this contradicts anything I said. I said race is a socially defined thing, human definitions based on visual traits. At no point was I implying it was scientific on any deeper level than surface features and how people non-scientifically categorize them.
          Same with ethnicity, even more so in fact.
          The inherent lack of difference is irrelevant, because society hasn't stopped caring yet and won't anytime soon. So that's what we face and deal with.

          • Fish"men" (hehe) in One Piece are a completely different species from humans (though feature human-like traits). In this way, that arc's species-ist themes is far beyond anything human's history can ever feel anything about. In reality, a majority of human history's problem has been dealing with problems of simple ethnic prejudice, not even racism (though that exists, too, unfortunately), which is all the more pathetic that people can't solve their differences.

          "As a literary device, an allegory in its most general sense is an extended metaphor. Allegory has been used widely throughout history in all forms of art, largely because it can readily illustrate complex ideas and concepts in ways that are comprehensible or striking to its viewers, readers, or listeners.Writers or speakers typically use allegories as literary devices or as rhetorical devices that convey hidden meanings through symbolic figures, actions, imagery, and/or events, which together create the moral, spiritual, or political meaning the author wishes to convey.[1]" - Wikipedia

          Couldn't really disagree more.
          That's what I believe is the parroting by society as a whole.

          You don't GET to disagree lol. That's the society we live in. And that's what we have to engage with to make it not matter as it does. Race is a real social reality, not a scientific one.
          But a social one.

          I refuse to participate in a society of the human race, homo sapiens species, where the majority lives in a fake reality, parroting what "actual human society" agrees upon as what words mean.
          If anything if I was a spergy shut in (maybe I am, maybe not), that would be a good thing. Unless the true purpose of living is to socialize and procreate based on the predicate of being a nincompoop.

          Ok so the above was in response to the idea we were talking about race. But now uh.. my man…. where the heck did words come from? People.
          Do you think words have stayed the same since they were made?

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          • Razh
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            Wonder what would happen if Nami said that she'd cut her throat if Sanji refused to fight a woman. Would he just suffer a meltdown or straight implode into himself?

            What if one of the okamas he had fought was actually an ugly woman posing as a man posing as a woman?

            What if a Catarina Devon was about to kill Zeff?

            Being Sanji must be really hard. I wonder if Oda has considered these conflicting situations. And if he has, I honestly hope he came up with more than just "Zeff said so". Sure, it's easy to deal with the problem by simply not putting Sanji into such a situation, but that's a superficial way of dealing with things.

            Originally Posted by Outerspec

            Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

            It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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            • U
              uniaka ikuzakas
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              • Daz
                Daz
                Warlord Mod
                @SuburbanErrorist
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                Jabra already adressed the fact that Luffys actions at Sabaody had extreme consequences, so I'll just focus on the following.
                @SuburbanErrorist:

                This series is fictional and the author can account for a characters "handicap".

                It doesn’t work that way; just because we’re aware of the story on a meta-level, that doesn’t mean the characters are. Like, we all know the arc will turn out fine and the conflict will be resolved, but the characters don’t. As far as Sanji and all the other crewmembers know he’s letting Robin down, and that’s the important part. And because the story invites us to relate to these characters, to care about them and their actions, we also get to judge them if they make shitty decisions.

                Handwaving the ramifications of a characters actions because “Oda will always ensure thing turn out well in the end” is a mindset which effectively removes any responsibility from the characters; they can behave however they want, because Oda can just write off the consequences. It’s the same line of thinking that gives us “Caesar for Nakama!” suggestions; Sure he was a megalomaniacal scumbag who posed as a savior to his crew only to treat them like disposable guinea pigs, and were getting abducted children addicted to deadly drugs with no remorse…but he didn’t actually kill anyone so he can still join. Checks and balances!

                But of course a characters actions do matter, because they tell us something about the character, lets us engage with them, and color our perception of them going forward. Zoro is the kind of guy who would risk his life and absorb all Luffys pain. Sanji is the kind of guy who would let Robin down because of a stupid principle. That last part doesn’t change just because Robin happened to not die.

                SuburbanErrorist 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                  • firelord111
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                    Im lost in time did onepiece had break last week or it has break this week

                    KageKageKing 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Watch-man
                      Watch-man
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                      Who Jinbe will fight during this arc climax ?

                      One of Sweet Commanders ? Using his water attacks against some food-based Devil Fruit or maybe one of Vinsmokes ?
                      Any idea ?

                      We will have somehow estimated how strong Sanji is compared to monster trio and most likely Jinbe by end of this arc. During Fishman Island they were shown to be pretty much on par with each other.

                      So with some more of Sanji showing - his trump card move or mode - and with Jinbe joining after some awesome fight we would have moster Quintet instead of Monster Trio.

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                      • Razh
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                        Well just the fact that it was adressed in this arc might mean that it's going to play a part somehow. Sanji has a lot of stuff to get over with, and this might be one of them. Of course, probably not completely. But if his "no hands rule" can be dismissied while he's in kitchen and fighting an opponent with food techniques, why not bypass "no hitting women" rule for sake of saving lives or something.

                        Originally Posted by Outerspec

                        Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                        It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • P
                          Psycrow @Razh
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                          @Razh:

                          Wonder what would happen if Nami said that she'd cut her throat if Sanji refused to fight a woman. Would he just suffer a meltdown or straight implode into himself?

                          What if one of the okamas he had fought was actually an ugly woman posing as a man posing as a woman?

                          What if a Catarina Devon was about to kill Zeff?

                          Being Sanji must be really hard. I wonder if Oda has considered these conflicting situations. And if he has, I honestly hope he came up with more than just "Zeff said so". Sure, it's easy to deal with the problem by simply not putting Sanji into such a situation, but that's a superficial way of dealing with things.

                          Well, Zoro had to find a workaround (which Sanji was aware of) for Monet, so he probably would too.
                          Watch Oda do something ridiculous like, Sanji kicks some rocks towards her groin, which turn out to be in his magic "plastic surgery" method, it gives her a penis, and he kicks her (him) down :ninja: Technically no kicking of a woman was done.

                          Razh 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • KageKageKing
                            KageKageKing @firelord111
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                            @firelord111:

                            Im lost in time did onepiece had break last week or it has break this week

                            This week. Just check the last page.

                            firelord111 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • firelord111
                              firelord111 @KageKageKing
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                              @KageKageKing:

                              This week. Just check the last page.

                              I really dont like to read this thread at all

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                              • Count Mario
                                Count Mario @firelord111
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                                @firelord111:

                                I really dont like to read this thread at all

                                I believe that Kage was talking about the last page of Chapter 842.

                                Spoiler:

                                "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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                                • Razh
                                  Razh @Psycrow
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                                  @Psycrow:

                                  Well, Zoro had to find a workaround (which Sanji was aware of) for Monet, so he probably would too.
                                  Watch Oda do something ridiculous like, Sanji kicks some rocks towards her groin, which turn out to be in his magic "plastic surgery" method, it gives her a penis, and he kicks her (him) down :ninja: Technically no kicking of a woman was done.

                                  Zoro's mind rape workaround worked like a charm but I'm not sure that Sanji method you described would work for him, considering he can't seem to win a fight against a man either.

                                  Originally Posted by Outerspec

                                  Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                                  It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • SuburbanErrorist
                                    SuburbanErrorist @Daz
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                                    @Daz:

                                    Jabra already adressed the fact that Luffys actions at Sabaody had extreme consequences, so I'll just focus on the following.

                                    It doesn’t work that way; just because we’re aware of the story on a meta-level, that doesn’t mean the characters are. Like, we all know the arc will turn out fine and the conflict will be resolved, but the characters don’t. As far as Sanji and all the other crewmembers know he’s letting Robin down, and that’s the important part. And because the story invites us to relate to these characters, to care about them and their actions, we also get to judge them if they make shitty decisions.

                                    Handwaving the ramifications of a characters actions because “Oda will always ensure thing turn out well in the end” is a mindset which effectively removes any responsibility from the characters; they can do effectively behave however they want, because Oda can just write off the consequences. It’s the same line of thinking that gives us “Caesar for Nakama!” suggestions; Sure he was a megalomaniacal scumbag who posed as a savior to his crew only to treat them like disposable guinea pigs, and were getting abducted children addicted to deadly drugs with no remorse…but he didn’t actually kill anyone so he can still join. Checks and balances!

                                    But of course a characters actions do matter, because they tell us something about the character, lets us engage with them, and color our perception of them going forward. Zoro is the kind of guy who would risk his life and absorb all Luffys pain. Sanji is the kind of guy who would let Robin down because of a stupid principle. That last part doesn’t change just because Robin happened to not die.

                                    Fair enough. Yes the last part doesn't change because of Robin surviving but it is the case that things were accounted for. However I heard people mention that Sanji would throw away Robins life just because of his principle or quirk, whatever people may call it, just because he cant beat up some girl.
                                    It's not just a stupid principle, it's a way of life taught by the man that took him in, the man that was the father figure, the man that loved him and raised him. Sanji takes this very seriously, and If we compare what Robin and Zeff have done for Sanji or how much time they have spent together, Zeff would win by a mile.

                                    As we have seen, Sanji has valued Zeffs ideals over even his Nakama.

                                    –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                    @Razh:

                                    Well just the fact that it was adressed in this arc might mean that it's going to play a part somehow. Sanji has a lot of stuff to get over with, and this might be one of them. Of course, probably not completely. But if his "no hands rule" can be dismissied while he's in kitchen and fighting an opponent with food techniques, why not bypass "no hitting women" rule for sake of saving lives or something.

                                    Technically Sanji was using knives for food, so it's fine.

                                    It may take Zeff to tell him a "you can attack women if you or your friends are in danger"

                                    Or

                                    Sanji is put in a position where he will change his mind and ideals, maybe in this Arc.

                                    Md-Martin 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • Captain M
                                      Captain M @sggupta
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                                      My problem with Sanji's sexism and the way it's treated is this. People are calling it a character trait. Which it is, but it's a specific kind of character trait. Sanji's sexism is a flaw. It's something that holds him back and gets between him and his goals. It's not being treated like it's a flaw by so much of the fandom and in particular by Oda himself. There's no saying it isn't a flaw. Look at how it handicaps him in the fight with Bon Kuri. With Kalifa. With Violet. Imagine the trouble there would have been if she wasn't a double agent. It keeps getting in his way and putting his people at risk in the story, and from the perspective of a reader we can see it as morally dubious. And look, no one's saying you can't or shouldn't write characters with sexism as a personal failing - flawed characters are good characters, but generally it's good writing to make a character arc out of a fatal flaw. To show it being worked on or grappled with over time. And Oda isn't incapable of this.

                                      Usopp's cowardice was a fatal character flaw once. His lack of confidence is still a defining character trait, but he's faced his fears and come a long way since we met him.

                                      Luffy's rashness and tendency to bite off more than he can chew were character flaws. They bit him and his whole team in the ass at Sabaody, so he took the time to make sure he was ready for the next stage of the journey after Marineford instead of just rushing in, showing growth as a person.

                                      Robin's aloof nature and nihilism were character flaws that brought on the whole conflict of the Water Seven Saga when she resigned herself to death. But she was inspired to choose life, and is a much more open and warm member of the crew. Her darker side grew into a tendency towards black comedy.

                                      These are great examples of One Piece character development.

                                      Sanji, on the other hand, was sexist when we met him and… is still sexist now. If anything he's worse than before, following the timeskip. It's not as if he's lacked chances to grow, Oda just keeps giving him easy ways out instead of really challenging him. It was fine once, with Bon Kuri, where it was new enough to be funny and there was a clever workaround. But then Kalifa happens and he's not even scolded for putting Robin at risk like that. The fight doesn't matter because Nami steps in and he gets to fight Jabra later. As mentioned above, there's Violet, who could probably have killed him outright if she wasn't undercover. Oda just keeps letting him off the hook. Sanji's sexism isn't being treated as a flaw by Oda: it always ends up being portrayed as hilarious at best, and noble at worst.

                                      I hope, I hope so bad that all of this is leading up to a big moment of character growth in Totland. But I'm not holding my breath.

                                      Oda doesn't have to change who Sanji is. Womanizing can remain a defining character trait, we know that's not going anywhere. But if he could just gain a tiny bit of respect for the danger posed by female enemies, or reach the point where he'd maybe consider choosing his crew over a woman he met yesterday who is trying to kill him, that would be great. That would do wonders for his character.

                                      --- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                      @sggupta:

                                      Agreed.But it also means everyone's gonna have a different opinion.your opinion or criticsm can also be questioned.

                                      Not really.

                                      Whiskey Peak was placed at the beginning of grand line,and so yeah the enemies were weak.But it was 100 against one,so zoro was constantly on his guard if you watch carefully.Yet,he didn' t really go all out against anyone if he didn't need to.the nun and the child were spared as you brought up.but miss monday was a named member of BW,and was quite strong.so he had to injure her.but even then,he didn't cause that much damage to her,and she even helped vivi escape later.
                                      In enies lobby,no one was vastly weaker than zoro except fodder,whoch don't really count.
                                      In fishmen island,no one was barely even a challenge,and in the hyozou fighy,zoro gave him a chance to surrender and even after he defeated him,hyozou was alive and well.

                                      You seem to be forgetting that all the SH's have greatly improved over the course of the series,especially after the time-skip.what could have easily killed them before won't even faze them now.

                                      He doesn't want to fight Tashigi becoz she reminds zoro of kunia,which he doesn' t like.it weirds him out.
                                      Miss monday challenged zoro to a contest of pure strength,and zoro is one to never shy away from a challenge.so he beat her at her own game.plus,he crushed her head sp i don' t know what you want.even the person he defeated with his swords,like igaram were not mortally wounded,and were fine afterwards.

                                      Cool.It 's also okay to disagree with some points of criticism and debate them.Sanji's actions and overall portrayal of women aside,i just don't accept that zoro has sexist(?) tendencies.
                                      But you know.it's cool to debate and disagree with others regarding something you love.that's what we are here for.so i say it' s cool to differ and disagree.

                                      Alright, we can argue all day about whether Monet or a hundred mooks is more of a threat…

                                      !

                                      but you do know that you've brought up some great examples of sexism in what you're saying, right? Zoro is 100% willing to draw blood against the mook bounty hunters, mook marines, mook pirate mobs, mook Punk Hazard guys (I forgot he downed a bunch of them when I last posted) but he just happens to not do it every time there's a girl around. As you said, there was no way not to fight Miss Monday "but even then, he didn't cause that much damage to her"
                                      That's the thing, isn't it? He won't cause damage to her. You say he "crushed her head," but like, look at the panel where he lets her go. There's no blood, no bruising, no finger imprints from where he grabbed her. The only sign anything at all has happened is that she's foaming at the mouth, which is a good sign of being awed or shocked into unconsciousness (or haki, but yeah, no). The bystanders just say he "beat her in a show of strength," which doesn't say a whole lot about what he actually did.

                                      As you say, she gets off easy. See that's the thing. Women are put on a pedestal. They aren't treated like people. They're not to be hurt, and if it does come to that, it can't be done in a way that's gonna leave any permanent or visible marks. Look at the nun, at Miss Monday, at his reaction to Robin being shocked, at Monet. Look at Tashigi, who begs to be taken seriously the same way Kuina did, but never gets it. Yeah, it's a complicated set of feelings for Zoro, but it doesn't feel very in line with what Kuina would want him to do, does it?

                                      Women consistently get special treatment from Zoro (and Sanji, and basically by Oda), and it's not because they're weak. Well, it kinda is, as the series likes to remind us, their bodies just aren't as tough. But they're weak in a different way to all the mooks that mowed down by the dozen. Hyozou was disarmed and given a chance to surrender, then cut down. Monet is disarmed and given a chance to surrender, but Zoro acts passively and lets Tashigi finish her off. No one else is getting the I-won't-cut-you-down treatment.

                                      In spite of having more female opponents than literally any One Piece man who isn't Luffy, and in spite of using swords, giving his fights a high chance of ending bloodily, the only time ever Zoro used a blade on a woman was when he cut Monet's cheek. After a while it stops being something that happened this one time. It's a pattern.

                                      And some of this is Oda's fault as well. Mooks are disposable, but there are never any female marines or female mook pirates. They're only in specifically female crews like Tsuru's and Hancock's, and take a moment to think of how many onscreen battles they've had. There are never any girls around when a whole squad gets beat in one panel by someone tough. Just, never. And the only real reason is that Oda probably just doesn't want to draw it.

                                      Vivre Card Archive One Piece in One Piece Covers Compilation

                                      hara hetta 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • Kdom
                                        Kdom @Jabra
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                                        @Jabra:

                                        Zoro has a bad sense of direction, it's a flaw he can't do anything about. He isn't intentionally choosing the wrong path, his brain simply can't keep up. It's a legitimate weakness.

                                        And yeah you are right, Luffy intentionally put the crew in danger on Saobody by punching Charlos. But do you also remember what happened after? He realized that he was biting off more than he could chew, which lead to tons of tears and a freaking 2 year timeskip. And that timeskip didn't only make him much more powerful, but also a lot more level-headed compared to his Paradise self.

                                        It's pretty much what some people wanted to see for Sanji as well. Either an extreme explanation why he has such a hardcore stance towards not hitting women, or SOME sort of development, similar to Luffy being a tad more cautious when it comes to picking fights (like trying to not fight Big Mum right now) or Usopp showing courage not only when it comes to his nakama, but also to outsiders like the Dwarves.

                                        Thankfully the arc isn't over yet, there is still a chance for Sanji to emanzipate himself from Zeff (at least to a certain degree), but if this should be all Oda has to add when it comes to Sanji's chivalry then he practically established him as a second-rate Straw Hat. Someone who puts his (or Zeff's) principles over the life of his friends - something no other Straw Hat does. They would all go through hell for each other, no matter the situation. No ifs and buts.

                                        All crewmembers have silly quirks. And none of them has really overcome them during the timeskip. Usopp is as cowardly as before and Luffy as straightforward as before so why Sanji should be the only one to have changed ? As someone said, Luffy almost killed the complete crew at the beginning of this arc and this is only due because his character has not matured one inch.
                                        The crew knows each others weaknesses and it is there job to take them into account so that when they endangered the crew, there is still someone to take over the situation. Nami was there to beat Kalifa when Sanji could not. Sanji was there to beat Jabra when Usopp could not, etc…
                                        Being able to accept people default even if one find them stupid is a mark of tolerance and is also something important.

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                                        • hara hetta
                                          hara hetta @Captain M
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                                          @Captain:

                                          –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                          Alright, we can argue all day about whether Monet or a hundred mooks is more of a threat...

                                          ! http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/images/B7qOpuaIQAA0s0q.jpg

                                          but you do know that you've brought up some great examples of sexism in what you're saying, right? Zoro is 100% willing to draw blood against the mook bounty hunters, mook marines, mook pirate mobs, mook Punk Hazard guys (I forgot he downed a bunch of them when I last posted) but he just happens to not do it every time there's a girl around. As you said, there was no way not to fight Miss Monday "but even then, he didn't cause that much damage to her"
                                          That's the thing, isn't it? He won't cause damage to her. You say he "crushed her head," but like, look at the panel where he lets her go. There's no blood, no bruising, no finger imprints from where he grabbed her. The only sign anything at all has happened is that she's foaming at the mouth, which is a good sign of being awed or shocked into unconsciousness (or haki, but yeah, no). The bystanders just say he "beat her in a show of strength," which doesn't say a whole lot about what he actually did.

                                          As you say, she gets off easy. See that's the thing. Women are put on a pedestal. They aren't treated like people. They're not to be hurt, and if it does come to that, it can't be done in a way that's gonna leave any permanent or visible marks. Look at the nun, at Miss Monday, at his reaction to Robin being shocked, at Monet. Look at Tashigi, who begs to be taken seriously the same way Kuina did, but never gets it. Yeah, it's a complicated set of feelings for Zoro, but it doesn't feel very in line with what Kuina would want him to do, does it?

                                          Women consistently get special treatment from Zoro (and Sanji, and basically by Oda), and it's not because they're weak. Well, it kinda is, as the series likes to remind us, their bodies just aren't as tough. But they're weak in a different way to all the mooks that mowed down by the dozen. Hyozou was disarmed and given a chance to surrender, then cut down. Monet is disarmed and given a chance to surrender, but Zoro acts passively and lets Tashigi finish her off. No one else is getting the I-won't-cut-you-down treatment.

                                          In spite of having more female opponents than literally any One Piece man who isn't Luffy, and in spite of using swords, giving his fights a high chance of ending bloodily, the only time ever Zoro used a blade on a woman was when he cut Monet's cheek. After a while it stops being something that happened this one time. It's a pattern.

                                          And some of this is Oda's fault as well. Mooks are disposable, but there are never any female marines or female mook pirates. They're only in specifically female crews like Tsuru's and Hancock's, and take a moment to think of how many onscreen battles they've had. There are never any girls around when a whole squad gets beat in one panel by someone tough. Just, never. And the only real reason is that Oda probably just doesn't want to draw it.

                                          SBS Volume 76 - Chapter 757, Page 98

                                          😧 Odacchi! Question!! You know how there aren't any females in the Whitebeard Pirates? It bothers me! P.N. Apple

                                          O: Hrmmm. So back when they made their first appearance (volume 25), there were female nurses on board. These lovely ladies were actually the Whitebeard Pirates' official medical team. However, due to Whitebeard's own set of morals, he never allowed a woman on board his ship as "fighters". This is the reason why there wasn't a single woman in his crew when they arrived in the "Summit War Arc". He was prepared for "death" at this point. He had ripped off all of the medical tools that were helping him stablize his condition despite his illness, left the women of his medical team, who desperately tried to stop him, in a safe place while tearing up, and went back out into sea for battle with just his boys!! I ended up not drawing all of this, but that's basically all the drama that went down before Pops finally showed up in the house.

                                          とても 男らしい:ninja:

                                          ! https://postimg.org/image/p1mq4c79f/

                                          LYING GAME

                                          LEVEL: NOVICE

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                                          • Md-Martin
                                            Md-Martin @SuburbanErrorist
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                                            @SuburbanErrorist:

                                            It's not just a stupid principle, it's a way of life taught by the man that took him in, the man that was the father figure, the man that loved him and raised him. Sanji takes this very seriously, and If we compare what Robin and Zeff have done for Sanji or how much time they have spent together, Zeff would win by a mile.

                                            As we have seen, Sanji has valued Zeffs ideals over even his Nakama.

                                            Didn't know it was a competition between who could make more of a lasting impact on Sanji, and that that effects whether a friend lives or dies.

                                            Originally Posted by Monkey King

                                            A magical strange Twilight Zone episode where no other education is offered, and the only option is Bill Nye the Science Guy videos

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                                            • K. Kira XXIII
                                              K. Kira XXIII @SuburbanErrorist
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                                              @SuburbanErrorist:

                                              Maybe Sanji can change, anyway, Usopp shot down the government flag but keep in mind he was also wearing a mask and under a different name.

                                              And that was a good spot for Sanji to change. And the only people that don't recognize Ussop = Sogeking is Luffy, Chopper, and the Tontatta once Ussop lied to them that is.

                                              Also the whole point is that Ussop, later even with his memories wiped from Robin (I argue that Sogeking disappeared because of it), reverted back to how he was pre-enies lobby, he still managed to overcome his quirk. Which I think is good character development to have. All of the Strawhats have flaws, I am not arguing for them to change permanently. I just thought Robin was a good enough reason for Sanji to overcome his flaw.

                                              Hidden:

                                              Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                              Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

                                              Hidden:

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                                              • Zack
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                                                @hara:

                                                SBS Volume 76 - Chapter 757, Page 98

                                                😧 Odacchi! Question!! You know how there aren't any females in the Whitebeard Pirates? It bothers me! P.N. Apple

                                                O: Hrmmm. So back when they made their first appearance (volume 25), there were female nurses on board. These lovely ladies were actually the Whitebeard Pirates' official medical team. However, due to Whitebeard's own set of morals, he never allowed a woman on board his ship as "fighters". This is the reason why there wasn't a single woman in his crew when they arrived in the "Summit War Arc". He was prepared for "death" at this point. He had ripped off all of the medical tools that were helping him stablize his condition despite his illness, left the women of his medical team, who desperately tried to stop him, in a safe place while tearing up, and went back out into sea for battle with just his boys!! I ended up not drawing all of this, but that's basically all the drama that went down before Pops finally showed up in the house.

                                                Welp, good to know I guess that Whitebeard is sexist as well due to not thinking women should be fighters. I guess we technically should have known this with him only having "sons".

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                                                • Razh
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                                                  What's up with those old mustached guys anyway?

                                                  Originally Posted by Outerspec

                                                  Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                                                  It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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                                                    FolhaS @K. Kira XXIII
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                                                    @Daz:

                                                    Jabra already adressed the fact that Luffys actions at Sabaody had extreme consequences, so I'll just focus on the following.

                                                    It doesn’t work that way; just because we’re aware of the story on a meta-level, that doesn’t mean the characters are. Like, we all know the arc will turn out fine and the conflict will be resolved, but the characters don’t. As far as Sanji and all the other crewmembers know he’s letting Robin down, and that’s the important part. And because the story invites us to relate to these characters, to care about them and their actions, we also get to judge them if they make shitty decisions.

                                                    Handwaving the ramifications of a characters actions because “Oda will always ensure thing turn out well in the end” is a mindset which effectively removes any responsibility from the characters; they can do effectively behave however they want, because Oda can just write off the consequences. It’s the same line of thinking that gives us “Caesar for Nakama!” suggestions; Sure he was a megalomaniacal scumbag who posed as a savior to his crew only to treat them like disposable guinea pigs, and were getting abducted children addicted to deadly drugs with no remorse…but he didn’t actually kill anyone so he can still join. Checks and balances!

                                                    But of course a characters actions do matter, because they tell us something about the character, lets us engage with them, and color our perception of them going forward. Zoro is the kind of guy who would risk his life and absorb all Luffys pain. Sanji is the kind of guy who would let Robin down because of a stupid principle. That last part doesn’t change just because Robin happened to not die.

                                                    Your post asks for a better comparison at the end.
                                                    Sanji was also going to do the same thing and the thing they were sacrificing there was their dream/life not their principles/"life of a father".

                                                    @Tamiel:

                                                    And that was a good spot for Sanji to change. And the only people that don't recognize Ussop = Sogeking is Luffy, Chopper, and the Tontatta once Ussop lied to them that is.

                                                    Also the whole point is that Ussop, later even with his memories wiped from Robin (I argue that Sogeking disappeared because of it), reverted back to how he was pre-enies lobby, he still managed to overcome his quirk. Which I think is good character development to have. All of the Strawhats have flaws, I am not arguing for them to change permanently. I just thought Robin was a good enough reason for Sanji to overcome his flaw.

                                                    I think what he meant was that wearing a mask creates a separation of the self, it's about how Usopp saw himself not how others saw him.
                                                    That's why in Thriller Bark he decided not to put the Sogeking mask, he was overcoming that shortcoming.

                                                    And yes, this is a proven fact. People wearing masks, costumes, heavy face painting, etc, create a new or different persona easily because they don't feel like themselfs.

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                                                    • Kaido King of the Beasts
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                                                        is Sanji's chivalry considered sexism now?

                                                        It's like Zoro's sense of direction, it will never go away.

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                                                        • RomanceDawn
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                                                          Zoro is the type who would take Luffy's pain and sacrifice himself for the crew. Yes true but you can't use that against Sanji when Sanji was prepared to do the EXACT same thing. Brook and those rolling pirates commended Sanji for that. Sanji's deal with Kalifa is as dumb to me as Bellamere outing herself to the Arlong Pirates but well what can you do? Both of them sacrificed the greater good for their values at the time.

                                                          And while I do think it's dumb I like characters who really stand by their ideals or what have you. Zeff doesn't want women in his kitchen, well ok. White Beard doesn't want female fighters in his crew, cool, that's all him. They have their own beliefs within the story that are different from other characters as well as different from mine.

                                                          Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯

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                                                          • KageKageKing
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                                                            Aren't we like 10 years too late to discuss if Sanji's chivalry is sexism or not?

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                                                            • desa
                                                              desa @Jabra
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                                                              @Jabra:

                                                              And that timeskip didn't only make him much more powerful, but also a lot more level-headed compared to his Paradise self.

                                                              When did Luffy get more level-headed. Was he not insisting on fighting an admiral rather than escape back in Dressrosa? At least at the archipelago he tried to lay low.

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                                                                @desa:

                                                                When did Luffy get more level-headed. Was he not insisting on fighting an admiral rather than escape back in Dressrosa? At least at the archipelago he tried to lay low.

                                                                He didn't start that fight, Fujitora did.
                                                                From there he had two options: run away or confront an enemy that might actually be beatable in his current form. Luffy already had a taste of what could happen if he decides to run 2 years ago: his enemies went after his nakama first and blasted them to the ends of the world. Not running, but fighting is a understandable reaction in my book.

                                                                Anyway, I'm not saying Luffy is suddenly a reasonable person or anything, he never will be. But his current cautious behavior towards Big Mum is a massive step up from two years ago. Sure, in the end it probably will still come to blows, but it's not his plan at all. It's about getting Sanji (and Jinbe) back, hopefully without even coming close to BM herself.

                                                                Can you imagine Paradise Luffy going on a covert operation to get Robin back? I really don't.

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                                                                • desa
                                                                  desa @Jabra
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                                                                  @Jabra:

                                                                  Can you imagine Paradise Luffy going on a covert operation to get Robin back? I really don't.

                                                                  He did to get Ace from ID

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                                                                  • Jabra
                                                                    Jabra @desa
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                                                                    @desa:

                                                                    He did to get Ace from ID

                                                                    Maybe I shouldn't have called it "Paradise Luffy", but "Pre Saobody Luffy". That was the big cut we were talking about after all.

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                                                                      I honestly think that Sanji is at his best in his chilvarous side. I mean whenever he is protecting women he is total bad ass. I guess you could say when he has saved anyone he is like that but he does it more with woman. Like the Cossette scene. That was just a great scene of Sanji's character and it made me love him again. I don't think that part of him should ever go away and while I think that is special circumstances he will hit a woman. I don't think Oda will put him in a situation where he would feel that he needs to enough.

                                                                      For instance, while he may have put Robin in danger it wasn't directly in front of him and would have been immediate. Like if Purin put a gun to choppers head (lets say he was 100% immobilized) you think Sanji would just sit back and watch? I would be amazed if he did. Like I said though I don't think Sanji will ever be put in a situation where due to his actions one of the crew will die in that exact moment. IIRC Sanji said that he would hit her if was forced to and had Kalifa not had her DF to take him out of commission instantly I think he would have eventually done it. But it would have taken a lot to do so. Oda took him out of the situation that made him break it. I actually really want to see him break it for his crewmates and most likely I think it would be Luffy. If Luffy gets caught by Big Mom I could see him attacking her to save him but Oda may never put him in a situation where he will break it. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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                                                                      • sggupta
                                                                        sggupta @RomanceDawn
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                                                                        @Jabra:

                                                                        Zoro has a bad sense of direction, it's a flaw he can't do anything about. He isn't intentionally choosing the wrong path, his brain simply can't keep up. It's a legitimate weakness.

                                                                        And yeah you are right, Luffy intentionally put the crew in danger on Saobody by punching Charlos. But do you also remember what happened after? He realized that he was biting off more than he could chew, which lead to tons of tears and a freaking 2 year timeskip. And that timeskip didn't only make him much more powerful, but also a lot more level-headed compared to his Paradise self.

                                                                        It's pretty much what some people wanted to see for Sanji as well. Either an extreme explanation why he has such a hardcore stance towards not hitting women, or SOME sort of development, similar to Luffy being a tad more cautious when it comes to picking fights (like trying to not fight Big Mum right now) or Usopp showing courage not only when it comes to his nakama, but also to outsiders like the Dwarves.

                                                                        Agreed.luffy's and zoro's actions can't really be compared to sanji's,and he could definitely use some change in this sense.

                                                                        @Razh:

                                                                        Wonder what would happen if Nami said that she'd cut her throat if Sanji refused to fight a woman. Would he just suffer a meltdown or straight implode into himself?

                                                                        What if one of the okamas he had fought was actually an ugly woman posing as a man posing as a woman?

                                                                        What if a Catarina Devon was about to kill Zeff?

                                                                        Being Sanji must be really hard. I wonder if Oda has considered these conflicting situations. And if he has, I honestly hope he came up with more than just "Zeff said so". Sure, it's easy to deal with the problem by simply not putting Sanji into such a situation, but that's a superficial way of dealing with things.

                                                                        Agreed.sanji does have it tough lol.chivalry is no easy thing.he's damned if he hits,and dned if he doesn't.
                                                                        Anyway,i agree that i want to see more focis on this aspect of sanji's no hitting policy,and some kind of resolution to this.

                                                                        @RomanceDawn:

                                                                        Zoro is the type who would take Luffy's pain and sacrifice himself for the crew. Yes true but you can't use that against Sanji when Sanji was prepared to do the EXACT same thing. Brook and those rolling pirates commended Sanji for that. Sanji's deal with Kalifa is as dumb to me as Bellamere outing herself to the Arlong Pirates but well what can you do? Both of them sacrificed the greater good for their values at the time.

                                                                        And while I do think it's dumb I like characters who really stand by their ideals or what have you. Zeff doesn't want women in his kitchen, well ok. White Beard doesn't want female fighters in his crew, cool, that's all him. They have their own beliefs within the story that are different from other characters as well as different from mine.

                                                                        ^this.it's what i was about to say too.other notable example of people being idiots but still being portrayed as cool would be Hirulik,who had good intentions but probably did only more harm to his patients,vivi who very naively wanted to save evryone without losing anything,franky for making dangerous weapons that could hurt people,fisher tiger being unable to let go of his hatred and choosing to die rather than take human blood,etc

                                                                        –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                        @Captain:

                                                                        And look, no one's saying you can't or shouldn't write characters with sexism as a personal failing - flawed characters are good characters, but generally it's good writing to make a character arc out of a fatal flaw. To show it being worked on or grappled with over time. And Oda isn't incapable of this.

                                                                        These are great examples

                                                                        Sanji, on the other hand, was sexist when we met him and… is still sexist now. If anything he's worse than before, following the timeskip. It's not as if he's lacked chances to grt.

                                                                        I hope, I hope so bad that all of this is leading up to a big moment of character growth in Totland. But I'm not holding my breath.

                                                                        Oda doesn't have to change who Sanji is. Womanizing can remain a defining character trait, we know that's not going anywhere. But if he could just gain a tiny bit of respect for the danger posed by female enemies, or reach the point where he'd maybe consider choosing his crew over a woman he met yesterday who is trying to kill him, that would be great. That would do wonders for his charact

                                                                        Good points.

                                                                        Alright, we can argue all day about whether Monet or a hundred mooks is more of a threat…

                                                                        ! [qimg]http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/images/B7qOpuaIQAA0s0q.jpg[/qimg]

                                                                        Sure,and the answer at the end would be 100 mooks against zoro at that time was more of a challenge compared to monet at this time

                                                                        but you do know that you've brought up some great examples of sexism in what you're saying, right? Zoro is 100% willing to draw blood against the mook bounty hunters, mook marines, mook pirate mobs, mook Punk Hazard guys (I forgot he downed a bunch of them when I last posted) but he just happens to not do it every time there's a girl around. As you said, there was no way not to fight Miss Monday "but even then, he didn't cause that much damage to her"
                                                                        That's the thing, isn't it? He won't cause damage to her. You say he "crushed her head," but like, look at the panel where he lets her go. There's no blood, no bruising, no finger imprints from where he grabbed her. The only sign anything at all has happened is that she's foaming at the mouth, which is a good sign of being awed or shocked into unconsciousness (or haki, but yeah, no). The bystanders just say he "beat her in a show of strength," which doesn't say a whole lot about what he actually did

                                                                        There are actually bruises on her face.but my main point was there is no actual difference between miss monday and other bounty hunters's condition.there is really no reason to see blood spattered and damaged women,which you seem to overstress

                                                                        Monet is disarmed and given a chance to surrender, but Zoro acts passively and lets Tashigi finish her off. No one else is getting the I-won't-cut-you-down treatment

                                                                        You do realise that was intentional and tashigi brought up that same thing?we were basically intentionaly tols by tashigi that zoro is sexist.with zoro saying no he is not.

                                                                        that which cannot be stopped:inherited will,a man's dream,and the flow of time.as long as man continues to seek out the answer to freedom,these things shall never be stopped.-PK Gol D. Roger

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                                                                        • K. Kira XXIII
                                                                          K. Kira XXIII @FolhaS
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                                                                          @FolhaS:

                                                                          I think what he meant was that wearing a mask creates a separation of the self, it's about how Usopp saw himself not how others saw him.
                                                                          That's why in Thriller Bark he decided not to put the Sogeking mask, he was overcoming that shortcoming.

                                                                          Ehhh…http://kissmanga.com/Manga/One-Piece/One-Piece–-465?id=319869#16 He went so deep, Ussop started having a conversation with his other self.
                                                                          http://kissmanga.com/Manga/One-Piece/One-Piece–-465?id=319869#17

                                                                          And yes, this is a proven fact. People wearing masks, costumes, heavy face painting, etc, create a new or different persona easily because they don't feel like themselfs.

                                                                          Jajajalulu, seems like you were expecting me to refute your statement. I would add another interpretation to the mask/paint covering. Would you not say that the personality born from these techniques are just the true representation of the person using them. That, for whatever reason, these people hide whom they are when others can see and recognize them, and putting these masks on just liberate their true persona. To the point with Ussop, Sogeking is just whom he really is, Oda might even make a point on bringing back the mask during Wano. To then have Ussop "overcome" his mask, realizing he does not need it in the next big fight. Or the mask breaks. "He is truly a brave warrior of the sea".

                                                                          Hidden:

                                                                          Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                                                          Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

                                                                          Hidden:

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                                                                            FolhaS @K. Kira XXIII
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                                                                            @Tamiel:

                                                                            Ehhh…http://kissmanga.com/Manga/One-Piece/One-Piece–-465?id=319869#16 He went so deep, Ussop started having a conversation with his other self.
                                                                            http://kissmanga.com/Manga/One-Piece/One-Piece–-465?id=319869#17

                                                                            Jajajalulu, seems like you were expecting me to refute your statement. I would add another interpretation to the mask/paint covering. Would you not say that the personality born from these techniques are just the true representation of the person using them. That, for whatever reason, these people hide whom they are when others can see and recognize them, and putting these masks on just liberate their true persona. To the point with Ussop, Sogeking is just whom he really is, Oda might even make a point on bringing back the mask during Wano. To then have Ussop "overcome" his mask, realizing he does not need it in the next big fight. Or the mask breaks. "He is truly a brave warrior of the sea".

                                                                            I had in my memory that Ussop talked to the mask but that decided to not use it and didn't confirm it.
                                                                            Totally my bad.

                                                                            And I had no way to know if you, or someone else reading the topic, had ever heard or read about that phenomenon.
                                                                            I also agree with that interpretation. The act of creating a new persona, or at least a public persona, could simply come to acting more on one's instincts or base ideals.
                                                                            Sogeking is who Ussop wants to be, brave and decisive. The mask makes him forget the doubts he may have about himself because he sees someone else.

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                                                                            • K. Kira XXIII
                                                                              K. Kira XXIII @FolhaS
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                                                                              @FolhaS:

                                                                              I had in my memory that Ussop talked to the mask but that decided to not use it and didn't confirm it.
                                                                              Totally my bad.

                                                                              Ideally we are here to make each other remember and construct a better understanding of the story. Or…talk about power levels for days.

                                                                              And I had no way to know if you, or someone else reading the topic, had ever heard or read about that phenomenon.
                                                                              I also agree with that interpretation. The act of creating a new persona, or at least a public persona, could simply come to acting more on one's instincts or base ideals.
                                                                              Sogeking is who Ussop wants to be, brave and decisive. The mask makes him forget the doubts he may have about himself because he sees someone else.

                                                                              Yeah, I know, I just thought it was funny, like the posters are on edge, ready to defend their posts…with blood! Jokes aside, I can't wait for Soge-GOD, the deity of Sniper Island to come back. On topic:

                                                                              How many variations of Gear 4th are there? So far we have two. A third one with his haki covering completely could be one.

                                                                              Hidden:

                                                                              Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                                                              Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

                                                                              Hidden:

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                                                                              • SuburbanErrorist
                                                                                SuburbanErrorist @K. Kira XXIII
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                                                                                @Tamiel:

                                                                                And that was a good spot for Sanji to change. And the only people that don't recognize Ussop = Sogeking is Luffy, Chopper, and the Tontatta once Ussop lied to them that is.

                                                                                Also the whole point is that Ussop, later even with his memories wiped from Robin (I argue that Sogeking disappeared because of it), reverted back to how he was pre-enies lobby, he still managed to overcome his quirk. Which I think is good character development to have. All of the Strawhats have flaws, I am not arguing for them to change permanently. I just thought Robin was a good enough reason for Sanji to overcome his flaw.

                                                                                In my opinion it wasnt good enough, just based on the time spent together. It's not like he was alone.

                                                                                –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                Also i mentioned sogeking because he wasn't known by the govenrment, strawhats had nothing to do with my point. As seen by his poster.

                                                                                --- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                @Md-Martin:

                                                                                Didn't know it was a competition between who could make more of a lasting impact on Sanji, and that that effects whether a friend lives or dies.

                                                                                It's not a competition. It was mentioned by Zeff that he wouldn't be a man. It was an absolute life principle he inherited from Zeff.

                                                                                K. Kira XXIII Md-Martin 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                                • K. Kira XXIII
                                                                                  K. Kira XXIII @SuburbanErrorist
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                                                                                  @SuburbanErrorist:

                                                                                  In my opinion it wasnt good enough, just based on the time spent together. It's not like he was alone.

                                                                                  Following that train of thought, it just seems even weirder considering Robin just gave her life for Sanji. But whatever, we are down to "in my opinion…" type of sentences anyways, so why keep going.

                                                                                  Also i mentioned sogeking because he wasn't known by the govenrment, strawhats had nothing to do with my point. As seen by his poster.

                                                                                  I did not really understand anything from that sentence. Even if Ussop had a mask, and no one knew who he was, the whole point is that even without the mask AND his memories of Robin(Sogeking) wiped off, he overcame his main flaw and fought for random people. Again, we are basically at the point of "I think" on repeat. There was a chance for Sanji (even if you think it was not enough) to overcome his weakness towards women. It did not happen, and he stood by his principle even if it meant his and his comrades life. I disagree with that decision, and you disagree with me, moving on.

                                                                                  –-----

                                                                                  Luffy's variations of gear 4th, what could be the use for a full body haki. I guess the obvious answer would be to use both Boundman and Tankman techniques.

                                                                                  Hidden:

                                                                                  Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                                                                  Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

                                                                                  Hidden:

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                                                                                  • Md-Martin
                                                                                    Md-Martin @SuburbanErrorist
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                                                                                    @SuburbanErrorist:

                                                                                    It's not a competition. It was mentioned by Zeff that he wouldn't be a man. It was an absolute life principle he inherited from Zeff.

                                                                                    A life principal that would have cost a woman her life. A woman that Sanji knows and cares about deeply.

                                                                                    Originally Posted by Monkey King

                                                                                    A magical strange Twilight Zone episode where no other education is offered, and the only option is Bill Nye the Science Guy videos

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                                                                                      Fraco @Md-Martin
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                                                                                      @Md-Martin:

                                                                                      A life principal that would have cost a woman her life. A woman that Sanji knows and cares about deeply.

                                                                                      I think this debate about Sanji and Kalifa being potentially deadly for Robin should stop.

                                                                                      That's not the point or the meaning of principles. Principles are supposed to be the most valuable thing in somebody's beliefs. It's the highest point of his reasonings, it's the definition of right and wrong, something deeper and supposed to be far beyond the benefits of one single individual, they are for the greater good. They are most valuable even than somebody's life.

                                                                                      It's like asking the Dalai Lama, who is against violence, to fight for monks rights in China. It's like fucking for virginity.

                                                                                      Sanji is against beating women, that could have lead to problems for Robin. Yes, so what? It's not like he was cheating or betraying his nakama, that's something Robin knew the moment she joined SHs.

                                                                                      –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                      So the Minks should have said to Jack where Raizo was to save lives?

                                                                                      "I'm simply an accident. Why take it all so seriously?"

                                                                                      Razh Md-Martin Monkey King 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                                      • Razh
                                                                                        Razh @Fraco
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                                                                                        @Fraco:

                                                                                        I think this debate about Sanji and Kalifa being potentially deadly for Robin should stop.

                                                                                        That's not the point or the meaning of principles. Principles are supposed to be the most valuable thing in somebody's beliefs. It's the highest point of his reasonings, it's the definition of right and wrong, something deeper and supposed to be far beyond the benefits of one single individual, they are for the greater good. They are most valuable even than somebody's life.

                                                                                        It's like asking the Dalai Lama, who is against violence, to fight for monks rights in China. It's like fucking for virginity.

                                                                                        Sanji is against beating women, that could have lead to problems for Robin. Yes, so what? It's not like he was cheating or betraying his nakama, that's something Robin knew the moment she joined SHs.

                                                                                        If you're trying to end the debate, you're gonna need some better arguments. That generalization of principles up there doesn't mean much here. A principle that potentially stops you from saving someone's life is a shitty principle.

                                                                                        If Dalai Lama could swing a log and knock out a soldier who was about to shoot one of his monks in the head, would he do it? Sure, if they all agreed they would die for their cause without fighting, that would be fine. But what if that monk suddenly cried out:"I WADDA LIVE!!!"? Wouldn't that look really bad?

                                                                                        Originally Posted by Outerspec

                                                                                        Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                                                                                        It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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                                                                                        • Md-Martin
                                                                                          Md-Martin @Fraco
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                                                                                          @Fraco:

                                                                                          Sanji is against beating women, that could have lead to problems for Robin. Yes, so what? It's not like he was cheating or betraying his nakama, that's something Robin knew the moment she joined SHs.

                                                                                          "Could have lead to problems" his friend is about to be dragged to an inescapable prison and is going to face execution. Certain death. He was there to get the key to the handcuff to save her. It is betraying his friend because she will die unless they get the correct key to her handcuffs.

                                                                                          Remember that awesome scene in Thriller Bark where Zoro and Sanji both tried to take Luffy's pain, and Zoro accepts almost dying for Luffy's sake?

                                                                                          The Sanji situation is pretty much the same if Zoro said "Nah, I'm not gonna take Luffy's pain. After all, I gotta be the worlds greatest swordsman, can't be dying now!"

                                                                                          You're acting this his "principle" has some holier than god aspect to it. It's not like asking a pacifist to use violence, it's like somebody saying "I only fight people bigger than me" and not doing anything when the small guy has a gun to your head.

                                                                                          –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                          So the Minks should have said to Jack where Raizo was to save lives?

                                                                                          No. You have the situation reversed. If the minks gave up Raizo then it would have not only doomed the rebellion on Wano, but Jack would have most likely still continued his onslaught and discovered the Road Poneglyph

                                                                                          They decided that for the greater good, Raizo would be kept chained against his will in a place Jack would not get to. They put aside their own lives to protect a comrade.

                                                                                          Sanji didn't put his own life aside to save a comrade. He put his own life aside to possibly die AND knowingly endanger his comrade.

                                                                                          Originally Posted by Monkey King

                                                                                          A magical strange Twilight Zone episode where no other education is offered, and the only option is Bill Nye the Science Guy videos

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                                                                                          • Razh
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                                                                                            Aside the fact that Sanji was just lying there, letting Nami go and fight a trained killer. I guess he must have known she was going to toy around with her shitty devil fruit instead of ending Nami old fashioned way in a couple of seconds.

                                                                                            Originally Posted by Outerspec

                                                                                            Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                                                                                            It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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                                                                                            • SuburbanErrorist
                                                                                              SuburbanErrorist @Md-Martin
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                                                                                              @Md-Martin:

                                                                                              A life principal that would have cost a woman her life. A woman that Sanji knows and cares about deeply.

                                                                                              Also a life principle in which, if broken would have cost the man who raised and loved Sanji to take extreme measures. You have two people you love, one may possible die, how would you choose?

                                                                                              Lol, someone's going to lose, if Sanji kicked a woman and Zeff found out, apparently he would cut his balls off and then kill himself after. I don't think you guys understand life principles.

                                                                                              –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                              @Tamiel:

                                                                                              Following that train of thought, it just seems even weirder considering Robin just gave her life for Sanji. But whatever, we are down to "in my opinion…" type of sentences anyways, so why keep going.

                                                                                              Once again, you keep going back to "Robin did this". It's evidently clear that this is not just a principle Sanji can break. It's not just some made up fantasy he came up with.

                                                                                              I did not really understand anything from that sentence. Even if Ussop had a mask, and no one knew who he was, the whole point is that even without the mask AND his memories of Robin(Sogeking) wiped off, he overcame his main flaw and fought for random people.

                                                                                              He knew who he was fighting with, and him being a coward is NOT a life principle, also not the first shitty situation he has gotten himself into.

                                                                                              Again, we are basically at the point of "I think" on repeat. There was a chance for Sanji (even if you think it was not enough) to overcome his weakness towards women. It did not happen, and he stood by his principle even if it meant his and his comrades life. I disagree with that decision, and you disagree with me, moving on.

                                                                                              The small chance didn't happen because it wasn't a willy nilly pussy hunger fantasy.

                                                                                              You are talking about Sanji's weakness as if it's a mental illness. You disagree because you don't like it, fine. But there is a reason behind it and that justified his actions.

                                                                                              –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                              @Razh:

                                                                                              If you're trying to end the debate, you're gonna need some better arguments. That generalization of principles up there doesn't mean much here. A principle that potentially stops you from saving someone's life is a shitty principle.

                                                                                              If Dalai Lama could swing a log and knock out a soldier who was about to shoot one of his monks in the head, would he do it? Sure, if they all agreed they would die for their cause without fighting, that would be fine. But what if that monk suddenly cried out:"I WADDA LIVE!!!"? Wouldn't that look really bad?

                                                                                              Well if it's shitty, don't blame Sanji, blame Zeff for "brainwashing him". Sanji was raised like that and he has turned out as a 100% follower of the principle.

                                                                                              If the Dalai lama swung and hit someone with a log, something he would be standing for. There are many principles even in real life in which people would die rather than do certain things.

                                                                                              Razh Daz 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                                              • Razh
                                                                                                Razh @SuburbanErrorist
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                                                                                                @SuburbanErrorist:

                                                                                                Well if it's shitty, don't blame Sanji, blame Zeff for "brainwashing him". Sanji was raised like that and he has turned out as a 100% follower of the principle.

                                                                                                If the Dalai lama swung and hit someone with a log, something he would be standing for. There are many principles even in real life in which people would die rather than do certain things.

                                                                                                I'm not blaming Sanji or Zeff, because they're both fictional characters. It's the author who decides what to put into his story. Sanji desperately needs some growth and I hope this hitting women thing gets toned down at least a little.

                                                                                                Personally, I think the whole thing with Dalai Lama is a little overblown. I'm an atheist and very very skeptical toward all forms of crowd control.

                                                                                                Originally Posted by Outerspec

                                                                                                Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                                                                                                It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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                                                                                                • ARTEMlS
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                                                                                                  The question isn't whether Sanji finally will hit a woman. It's when.

                                                                                                  Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.

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                                                                                                  • Monkey King
                                                                                                    Monkey King @Fraco
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                                                                                                    @Fraco:

                                                                                                    I think this debate about Sanji and Kalifa being potentially deadly for Robin should stop.

                                                                                                    That's not the point or the meaning of principles.

                                                                                                    So what you're saying is the point and meaning of principles is how they are on paper, not how they actually function in reality.
                                                                                                    A strange view to have.

                                                                                                    It's the highest point of his reasonings, it's the definition of right and wrong, something deeper and supposed to be far beyond the benefits of one single individual, they are for the greater good. They are most valuable even than somebody's life.

                                                                                                    Nothing about this principle has anything to do with greater good. This description is completely unfitting to the actual subject.

                                                                                                    Sanji is against beating women, that could have lead to problems for Robin. Yes, so what?

                                                                                                    ahahahaha, are you fucking kidding?

                                                                                                    Hey how about this. When you're ready to make the actual post where you think about anything you type first, we'll get on that one and strike this one from the records.
                                                                                                    Just, y'know, TRY next time ok?

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                                                                                                      FolhaS @Md-Martin
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                                                                                                      @Md-Martin:

                                                                                                      "Could have lead to problems" his friend is about to be dragged to an inescapable prison and is going to face execution. Certain death. He was there to get the key to the handcuff to save her. It is betraying his friend because she will die unless they get the correct key to her handcuffs.

                                                                                                      Remember that awesome scene in Thriller Bark where Zoro and Sanji both tried to take Luffy's pain, and Zoro accepts almost dying for Luffy's sake?

                                                                                                      The Sanji situation is pretty much the same if Zoro said "Nah, I'm not gonna take Luffy's pain. After all, I gotta be the worlds greatest swordsman, can't be dying now!"

                                                                                                      You're acting this his "principle" has some holier than god aspect to it. It's not like asking a pacifist to use violence, it's like somebody saying "I only fight people bigger than me" and not doing anything when the small guy has a gun to your head.

                                                                                                      No. You have the situation reversed. If the minks gave up Raizo then it would have not only doomed the rebellion on Wano, but Jack would have most likely still continued his onslaught and discovered the Road Poneglyph

                                                                                                      They decided that for the greater good, Raizo would be kept chained against his will in a place Jack would not get to. They put aside their own lives to protect a comrade.

                                                                                                      Sanji didn't put his own life aside to save a comrade. He put his own life aside to possibly die AND knowingly endanger his comrade.

                                                                                                      The fact that Sanji was also willing to throw his life away moots the point you're trying to make.

                                                                                                      That situation was about one's dream not one's principle.
                                                                                                      Sanji's dream is to see the All Blue, the same way Zoro's dream is to be the guy with the number 1 headband. Sanji's dream is not never hitting a woman.
                                                                                                      They would both sacrifice their dreams (and life) but they were not breaking any principle.

                                                                                                      And a principle is supposed to be holier than god to the person who has it.
                                                                                                      It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, it's not your principle, you can say it's the dumbest fucking thing you've ever heard.

                                                                                                      This had happen in the series way before Sanji/Kalifa.
                                                                                                      Bellemere had the principle of never in any case or way deny her mothership to Nami and Nojiko and she died for it.
                                                                                                      And most people think it's the fucking dumbest thing ever. She could have lied and lived in secret with the girls but it was her principle.
                                                                                                      So she died, knowing she wouldn't be there for the girls anymore but she knew/hoped someone would take care of them.

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                                                                                                      • MetaMario
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                                                                                                        Definitely not Oda's style, but holy shit what if (we're hypothetically traveling back in time to post Enies Lobby here) Robin knew of the specifics and asked Sanji (while maintaining her mysterious smile) about it? He'd be wracked with guilt and that could've lead to some questioning of said principle?

                                                                                                        Alas, that could've been some interesting character development.

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