Chapter 842: The Power of Fullness
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Just when it got good at the end, we get a damn break.
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Great chapter
Really liked the scenes with Nami acting confident
Chopper and carrot had a funny scene in mirror world
Sanji's chivalry seemed a bit underwhelming but it's not a bad explanation
Really loved luffy's new form, supposedly stronger for defense
His finisher looked amazing and cannot wait til its in animeNow onto the gift exchange / Luncheon
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I don't see how he was a clear step above. I mean Doflamingo didn't sit back spamming clones for 11 hours.
We forget a lot about Doflamingo's feats and general devil fruit power.
It's difficult to compare because both were nerfed. The Doflamingo who fought Sanji, Smoker and Law wasn't the one who fought Luffy… he had a lot of chances to defeat Luffy just like Cracker had without Nami there.
But it's easy to find the reasons of their defeat, Luffy is able to give the last punch but unable to do it all along without help.
Excellent chapter indeed; Nami's declaration, the homies reaction to that, Chopper has a lot of strenght or the balls are light... oh well, Sanji's trauma and Tankman with all the Buso in his tummy crushing every fiber of Cracker.
I'm seeing Tankman Vs Kaidou, stopping a punch with the muscle fuusen, ha! that would be so ridiculous and funny.
Luffy was like Po from Kung Fu Panda
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Short list, of the top of my head, of people in OP who are fine with beating up either gender.
Pell, Luffy, Magellan, that fat guy from Skypiea who beat up on Robin, Enel, Crocodile, Ivankov, Aokiji, Galdino, Django, that weird kabuki guy from CP9, probably the entirety of the CP9 grouping really, Fuhranky, that guy who looks like Steven Tyler who's name i'm drawing a blank on. I'm probably forgetting somebody, but it's a start.
And Niji :ninja:
Oh wait, that was obviously Reiju
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As Luffy's job has always been to be a ball of rubber, I think the fight went exactly as it should have. XD Like it or don't, it was pretty different from fights we get in most series out there.
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I'm not gonna be online for a while due to life, and it's a great timing with the 1-week break. I just wanna say that this chapter is awesome. It's like One Piece going back to its roots. I also kinda expected a flashback of the 11-hr battle, but this exposition through dialogues is fine too. I just take it as a positive sign for Oda, that he has a lot of ideas for this arc that he can't wait to execute soon. Totland does have a lot of plots going on. At least that is one battle wrapped up.
There are so much similarities between Cracker and Galdino, makes me think that the other Sweets commanders will be rehashed Daz Bonez and Bon Clay as well. Probably not. But I hope they get introduced soon. They're probably future foes for Sanji and Jimbei in this arc. Looking back, Jimbei would have completely thrashed Cracker, hahaha.
Also, wtf is Chopper doing? He's being stupid again, haha. Well, Carrot can't run anymore so I guessed they have to fight now. Probably what's gonna be the next chapter is about… and the meetup of the in-laws. I'm suspecting that this is gonna be Sanji and Pudding's fist meeting, btw. Despite what she said on the Strawhats on Cocoa Island. I hope we got to see the entire Charlotte family too. The bully brothers will maybe try to take off Sanji's face mask to humiliate him. Anyway, its gonna be interesting.
The problem of not having that flashback of the 11-hr battle is that we got many questions still unconfirmed. Like, how did Luffy managed his gear 4 drawbacks and is Cracker DF awakened. Also, I'm pretty sure not all of the battle are boring parts. I definitely want to see the first time Nami arrived and save the day with her rain, and how Cracker chopped off King Baum's top.
I freaking love the Tank Man design though. How can something be perfectly spherical and still look so badass! Hahaha.
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I'm so old, I can remember a time when men weren't considered deplorable sexists if they refused to beat the snot out of a woman.
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I'm so old, I can remember a time when men weren't considered deplorable sexists if they refused to beat the snot out of a woman.
I think it's more the fact that zeff probably wouldnt have a problem with sanji defending himself from a superhuman secretary. Aka the kalifa situation. There are many people on here who consider it one of oda's worst character choices. He just kind of took the punishment instead of trying to pin her or something else that wouldnt involve him fighting her but wouldnt be him having a psychological wall that put robin's life in danger.
The zeff situation can probably be explained by sanji taking his standard advice to extremes because of the tremendous amount of respect and love he has for zeff but it's still relatively bad in EL
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This post is deleted!
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Lol I really liked the ending to this fight. That being said, and someone else mentioned this, it seems like Oda is not taking his usual time on these things that he usually does.
For instance there should have been 3 or 4 more pages with Luffy eating a cracker and Nami figuring out the water weakness. Or instead of just having Carrott and Chopper running away actually show them wandering around looking in random mirrors and seeing people and then Brûlée comes out of no where and they start running. I think that would make it flow better and would make it more enjoyable.
I'd rather Oda take his time so when i re read it meshes better than have it all mixed up now but go faster.
I wonder if Tankman is an on the spot name or not but because he said 'full version' ( by which I think he meant he was full) then that could mean that it is an alternate form that he found but tweaked a little in this case. Would be funny if Cracker crashed into the gift exchange and was only able to say Strawhat Luffy or something like that. Then BM would say 'well, well…. looks like he might be something after all.'
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Sanji is a very bad person he is sexist but his brothers are good cause they they know genders equal they kill men and women alike :ninja:
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Just because we are on the New World, people wants this to become something like Bleach or something.
I think it's the idea on how Luffy ended a Yonkou commander. They want a fight where Luffy is all beaten up and barely won. aka Lucci.
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Anybody else imagining Luffy just finishing a huge meal and about to kick back on Ruskaina then a huge animal comes out of nowhere and he tries to activate Boundman only to use Tankman instead?
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I can understand why people thought the no hit women explanation or the way Luffy beat Cracker was underwhelming, but I'd chalk that up to having overly large expectations or I have low taste, or something in the middle.¯_(ツ)_/¯
I thought Zeff teaching Sanji not to hit women was good for me and I agree with the other people who said that Sanji was glad to have someone, who isn't even his real dad, accept him as a son was the real reason for that flashback. Plus, Zeff said he would rather cut his throat open and die than have Sanji hit women. I take that as Sanji didn't want to kick women unless he wanted to end up killing his "dad".
Luffy eating the biscuits sounds like something he would do and it was great knowing Nami contributed to the fight. Also, him beating Cracker in the way he did was clever and artful, coupled with his line "Enjoy your trip to the ends of the New World!" which gave me goosebumps!
All in all, it was a good chapter for me.
P.S: I'm probably the only one who thinks this, but while I do care for the gift exchange, I'm wondering more on the status Brook and Pedro or Jinbei.
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This was a fun fight for Luffy, mixing it up between raw power and the absurd.
I'm glad we got a quick look into what's happening in mirror world & really hope that we get to see a lot more of Brulie fighting Chopper & Carrot.
What I really want to know is what's happening with Brook and where Jinbei is.
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@Monkey:
No he's right, you've either forgotten what series you're reading. Or you've never really known the entire time.
I'm going with the latter.Nah, I know what series I'm reading. I don't mind gag fights. I just didn't like how this one was handled.
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I'm so old, I can remember a time when men weren't considered deplorable sexists if they refused to beat the snot out of a woman.
Pretty sure in battle since time immemorial the idea of not fighting female combatants attacking you has been considered dumb. As for sexist well we can identify it further as that since the rationale is exactly that.
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Nah, I know what series I'm reading. I don't mind gag fights. I just didn't like how this one was handled.
That you're calling it a gag fight is how we can know you don't know the series.
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@Monkey:
That you're calling it a gag fight is how we can know you don't know the series.
Why so serious Zephos, you're reading One Piece?
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I understand what Daz is saying and can't say I disagree with it even though I really enjoyed the fight.
The only thing that bothered me was that explanation for Sanji's chivalry. It was really underwhelming for me. Before this chapter I was wondering if the reason for Sanji's chivalry was actually because the only people who cared for him when he was on Germa were women(Reiju and his mom) and to be honest that seemed to me like a much better explanation than what I got here.
On another topic, can't say I don't understand Daz, but I liked the fight so much that I also can't complain about it. I liked that it was kept short in terms of panel time, that it was a half serious half comedic early arc fight and that we had the surprise of it lasting 11 hours. Didn't see many people complain about that last week. I hadn't laughed as much in OP in a long time and coming here to read the comments just felt like reading Sugar's first KO all over again. I laughed and liked the chapter and then realize many people here have the opposite opinion…
Just for the record, I think that concept-wise Luffy fighting a foe with an endless army of surprisingly tough biscuit soldiers, until he eventually gets into a pinch, and then Nami showing up with a Homie army for support and assesess the situation, determines Crackers weakness, and teams up with Luffy to soften the biscuit soldiers through weather powers and making them edible thus triggering an 11 hour eating binge culminating with a super-fat Luffy blowing Cracker away by surprisingly absorbing him into his fat folds and then shooting him like a cannonball is freaking GREAT.
But execution-wise, its a letdown. Its like if you cut away from Sanji vs Wanze here, returned here, and then made another cutaway before the final strike. In other words its like Sanji vs Wanze, only omitting this scene.
As for the flashback, Sanji seeing Zeff as a father figure and adopting one of his principles because of it is, in theory, affecting. Just like Sanji taking a beating at Enies Lobby because he's a man of principles is, in theory, admirable.
Its just a really really dumb principle.
And the statement that Zeff cares about how Sanji acts as a man but not a human feels off. So Sanji could be a total dickbag to everyone and Zeff would forgive it as long as women were an exception? Seems like a weird mantra to be adopted by someone who has a core principle of feeding literally anyone_,_ regardless of gender, status, or allegiance.
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It'll be like setting up 1st the Crocodile fight. Reveal Crocodiles powers. They clash. Having a timeskip and then cutting back to the 2nd fight with the water Luffy reveal.
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Pen Pineapple Apple Pen…
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I wonder why people think that sanji would gain his chivalry during his vinsmoke time. He grew up in an environment of constant abuse and punishment. Sure, his mom was nice, but reiju is not a complete innocent person. She kept on belittling him as well, just because she apologized afterwards doesn't excuse it. Up until he was adopted by zeff, punishment for everyone was something ingrained to his personality.
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@Daz:
So Sanji could be a total dickbag to everyone and Zeff would forgive it as long as women were an exception?
that's a really specific reading of that exchange.i really doubt that's what this line imples.well,putting aside mangastream being mangastream and fucking up the dialogue (literally),the way i take it from the shitty translation is that if sanji blunders and makes a mistake,or even just does some bad shit mistakenly,he could be forgiven but if he does some outright evil stuff(which includes beating the hell out of women) or even doing dishonorable shit(which would no doubt be in his definition of being a man),that'd be unacceptable
In any case,people should stop taking Mangastream dialogues at face-value.the amount of "localisation" they do has seriously crossed the limit of being anything decent–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Monkey:
Pretty sure in battle since time immemorial the idea of not fighting female combatants attacking you has been considered dumb. As for sexist well we can identify it further as that since the rationale is exactly that.
except Zeff was not talking about battle situations,he was talking about the normal situations.in the specific context of him being unable to have women in his kitchen because he'd have to kick them.
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Amazing chapter and somehow it disintegrates to Oda hates women thread. :getlost:
I will get my things
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that's a really specific reading of that exchange.i really doubt that's what this line imples.well,putting aside mangastream being mangastream and fucking up the dialogue (literally),the way i take it from the shitty translation is that if sanji blunders and makes a mistake,or even just does some bad shit mistakenly,he could be forgiven but if he does some outright evil stuff(which includes beating the hell out of women) or even doing dishonorable shit(which would no doubt be in his definition of being a man),that'd be unacceptable
In any case,people should stop taking Mangastream dialogues at face-value.the amount of "localisation" they do has seriously crossed the limit of being anything decent–- Update From New Post Merge ---
except Zeff was not talking about battle situations,he was talking about the normal situations.in the specific context of him being unable to have women in his kitchen because he'd have to kick them.
Zeff was talking in general. That a man shouldn't hit a woman, because it's an "iron-clad rule of the universe". That would include battles.
And even if he wasn't, either way he's looking down on women.
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Normal people: Da #$%^ is dis? One of the four most powerful pirates right hand lost like that? Corny comedy is OK during the match but the climax? This ain't foxy.
Oda's underwear folders: U r so stupidz, can't you tell, that genius writing of Oda, he magnificently made an yonko's right hand look brilliant by abandoning his plan to let Luffy eat till he explodes. While not focusing on getting rid of nami and the homies who was protecting her by keeping luffy busy. Instead contradicts himself by attacking luffy. Cuz Luffy said he couldn't eat anymore. Ha! Fooled you high ranking Yonkou servant! Look how smart Oda makes a high caliber fighter look! Go watchz bleachz, u always want serious things happening at the right timez. learn da lawz like sanji did since before the dinosaurz!!!
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So cracker got 1 hit ko?
He had no bruises or anything after 11 hours, and with his hate for pain, I imagine he would complain if he got hurt before tankman.
Also, you guys think tankman stands a shot with the yonkou?
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Zeff was talking in general. That a man shouldn't hit a woman, because it's an "iron-clad rule of the universe". That would include battles.
hitting a woman doesn't equal to fighting a woman.but well,you're free to your own perception but as i and others have said before,i doubt that Zeff was talking about the "kalifa incident".it's more likely sanji continued to develop and expand his chivalrous attitude to the extremes.
And even if he wasn't, either way he's looking down on women
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okay,so not hitting women=looking down on them.
so that makes all the people around me(and most people in general)women included,as looking down on women.
anyways,not saying your opinion is necessarily wrong,just that it is subjective and not really what i was discussing–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Normal people: Da #$%^ is dis? One of the four most powerful pirates right hand lost like that? Corny comedy is OK during the match but the climax? This ain't foxy.
Oda's underwear folders: U r so stupidz, can't you tell, that genius writing of Oda, he magnificently made an yonko's right hand look incompetent by abandoning his plan to let Luffy eat till he explodes. While not focusing on getting rid of nami and the homies protecting her by keeping luffy busy with his original plan. Instead contradicts himself by attacking luffy. Cuz Luffy said he couldn't eat anymore. Ha! Fooled him! Look how smart Oda makes a high caliber fighter look! Go watchz bleachz, u always want serious things happening at the right timez. learn da lawz like sanji did since before the dinosaurz!!!what an intelligent and witty post.lol who needs meaningful and constructive criticism when you have has GARBLEDLOLSJUMBLEDsupposedtobesarcasticunreadable mess.truly a true product of modernism
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I'm so old, I can remember a time when men weren't considered deplorable sexists if they refused to beat the snot out of a woman.
It's more that you shouldn't be beating the snot out of anyone normally, but for sexist reasons, it's considered worse if it's a woman. That's why the female chef getting the crap kicked out of her is more affect. In the same way, there's no good reason for women to not be involved in the physical violence comedy as much as the male characters with even Zeff excusing it as 'Always been like that' and 'Law of the universe'.
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@uniaka:
Also, you guys think tankman stands a shot with the yonkou?
Nope. They're still too large to fit inside the nevertheless awesome belly-cannon
If you mean it in the sense of durability and withstanding attacks, or shooting stuff at them, then maybe.
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hitting a woman doesn't equal to fighting a woman.but well,you're free to your own perception but as i and others have said before,i doubt that Zeff was talking about the "kalifa incident".it's more likely sanji continued to develop and expand his chivalrous attitude to the extremes.
Battling a woman does equal hitting them, though. It's not my perception, it's what the dialogue says. He doesn't say "Men aren't meant to kick women outside of battle", he says "Men aren't meant to kick women."
okay,so not hitting women=looking down on them.
so that makes all the people around me(and most people in general)women included,as looking down on women.
anyways,not saying your opinion is necessarily wrong,just that it is subjective and not really what i was discussing.Zeff's way of teaching and handling things in general is hitting people. He doesn't think a woman should be subjected to that. Just men. He is most certainly looking down on them.
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Ahh man you know what it was like in school "you shouldnt hit a girl " when we were Sanjis age.
Let a man have his ideals
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Normal people: Da #$%^ is dis? One of the four most powerful pirates right hand lost like that? Corny comedy is OK during the match but the climax? This ain't foxy.
Oda's underwear folders: U r so stupidz, can't you tell, that genius writing of Oda, he magnificently made an yonko's right hand look incompetent by abandoning his plan to let Luffy eat till he explodes. While not focusing on getting rid of nami and the homies protecting her by keeping luffy busy with his original plan. Instead contradicts himself by attacking luffy. Cuz Luffy said he couldn't eat anymore. Ha! Fooled him! Look how smart Oda makes a high caliber fighter look! Go watchz bleachz, u always want serious things happening at the right timez. learn da lawz like sanji did since before the dinosaurz!!!
err… what?, c'mon we all know luffy wouldn't explode... it was just Cracker's way of saying that by eating a lot luffy would get incapacitaded to fight, he even said it before charging at luffy that he couldn't even imagine Luffy even move at that state, so that's why he charged on luffy and not on nami, he thought Luffy was done, full of food and incapable of dodging his attack, but he couldn't predict a new G4 variation... it's that simple actually...
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Battling a woman does equal hitting them, though. It's not my perception, it's what the dialogue says. He doesn't say "Men aren't meant to kick women outside of battle", he says "Men aren't meant to kick women."
Not kicking women could also mean not kicking women without any reason(and the not as strong as men: women, not the highly trained and dangerous women), not the " not kicking women no matter her strength" reading which you seem to imply.and yeah,it is perception because it is your reading of the dialogue.Zeff says he shouldn't kick women,not that he should die rather than kick a woman,which is essentially what a battle situation is.
@SuburbanErrorist:Ahh man you know what it was like in school "you shouldnt hit a girl " when we were Sanjis age.
Let a man have his ideals
apparently you must have gone to a sexism-focused school then:ninja:(along with me,obviously)
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What determines screwtape to read one piece or even post here every week if you dont like one piece that much nobody forces you to read it
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The only annoying thing i saw in crackers defeat is people sayong cracker is weak
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@uniaka:
So cracker got 1 hit ko?
He had no bruises or anything after 11 hours, and with his hate for pain, I imagine he would complain if he got hurt before tankman.
Also, you guys think tankman stands a shot with the yonkou?
if smashing in many hard clones and trees and walls counts 1 hit yeah that 1 hit ko
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I don't understand why you all like to talk about sexism. I mean it is a law of universe since before dinosaurs age. Sanji will leave strawhats when luffy punch Big Mom.:sad:
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He already punched at least Alvida and Vivi.
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I'm so angry that this fight against a non-boss character that was entirely utilized to slow down Luffy instead of having him stuck between two buildings was handled so poorly.
Beating a non-boss character with a foolish attack like that, what is this? That would NEVER happen in my other favorite series, Bleach.
And it was so rushed! I know we just finished an entire arc where MAJORLY hyped villains were taken out in single chapters by Strawhat Alliance fodder but come ON! This has only been going on for a few months! Luffy fighting this non-boss character should have taken a lot more time. Luffy's battles with non-boss characters that were THE COOLEST in One Piece always lasted the LONGEST. Unlike that pathetic Bellamy scene in Logue Town.
And come on Oda, it's the 21st century! Enough with this macho bullshit, it's all about the beta-male! I dunno why you haven't added that to your series which, from the start, was a love letter to macho 70's and 80's Japanese television and manga. Just because you wanna keep DERP CONTINUITY doesn't mean you shouldn't be forced to add foreign influences on modern gender roles to you comic to accommodate what WE think is RIGHT.
Terrible chapter. He should be ashamed.
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It's always weird when Greg actually posts in the forum
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Not kicking women could also mean not kicking women without any reason(and the not as strong as men: women, not the highly trained and dangerous women), not the " not kicking women no matter her strength" reading which you seem to imply.and yeah,it is perception because it is your reading of the dialogue.Zeff says he shouldn't kick women,not that he should die rather than kick a woman,which is essentially what a battle situation is.
In the contest of the flashback, there is presented a "reason" for kicking a woman: Disciplinary action, because thats how Zeff rolls with his employees, meaning that a woman working on Baratie would recieve disciplinary kicks, same as everyone else. But because kicking women is Totes Verboten, Zeff won't hire them; even if he had reason to kick them (they fucked up in the kitchen, were smartasses or rude to the customers), he wouldn't be allowed to because of a rule from before the Dinosaurs.
Apart from you assuming a lot of caveats and exceptions into what is presented as a completely black and white mentality, If Zeff was really talking about not kicking anyone who can't take it ("weak" women), there'd be absolutely nothing stopping him from hiring some tough, physically fit woman. But that isn't an option - its "no women, period".
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It's always weird when Greg actually posts in the forum
Someone put up the Please Stop This Stupidity Signal.
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Someone put up the Please Stop This Stupidity Signal.
I think it's still in the shop. I for one assume that you've actually got a secret forum identity
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I never seen greg so angry about a chapter before
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Normal people: Da #$%^ is dis? One of the four most powerful pirates right hand lost like that?
I think you're overstating Cracker's importance just a little here.
He's a character introduced in the last few chapters who we haven't seen at all during our glimpses of Big Mom.
Right hand is a bit strong.
Corny comedy is OK during the match but the climax? This ain't foxy.
You can't end a match up between a rubber man and a guy who produces biscuit soldiers with something comic?
Think about that statement for a minute.
look incompetent by abandoning his plan to let Luffy eat till he explodes.
Luffy had just devoured yet another biscuit soldier after apparently being full, after nearly a dozen hours of eating.
Going for the kill against a seemingly immobilised Luffy doesn't make Cracker look incompetent in any way.
While not focusing on getting rid of nami and the homies protecting her by keeping luffy busy with his original plan.
Since Cracker drew attention to the fact that the homies were protecting Nami makes it seem pretty obvious that he had already tried to take Nami out of the equation.
Also, what makes you think that Luffy would stand by and continue to eat the biscuit soldiers while Nami was being attacked?
Instead contradicts himself by attacking luffy.Cuz Luffy said he couldn't eat anymore. Ha! Fooled him!
He didn't contradict himself, he merely changed tactic when it seemed to make perfect sense to do so.
Look how smart Oda makes a high caliber fighter look!
Yes, because all high calibre fighters are geniuses.
Kizaru would like a word.
Go watchz bleachz, u always want serious things happening at the right timez.
You were just complaining about how the fight ended in a fashion that wasn't serious enough for you.
I can't believe you abandoned the tactic you were using at the start of your post by the end of your post, aren't you just so darn incompetent?
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Someone put up the Please Stop This Stupidity Signal.
You're the hero that we don't deserve, but that we do need right now.
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For Usopps sake. Why does everyone accuses people with "So you say hitting women is ok?" when we criticize Sanji and Zeff? No one is saying that. It's their reasoning.
Think it the other way around. A young woman wants to learn from Zeff, wants to become an amazing chef. And is willing to endure his kicks if she makes a mistake. But because of his "universal rule" Zeff sends her away. Huh, ok.
And Sanji blows it out of proportion. He is obsessed with women. A fact many people thought is intertwined with his chivalry schtick. But it was just Zeff. So I hope there is still more about Sanji because that short explanation isn't quite enough for me shrugs
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But can there be comedic elements even at the climax of a serious fight?
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What determines screwtape to read one piece or even post here every week if you dont like one piece that much nobody forces you to read it
Same way you aren't forced to read his post or even comment it.
These threads would be boring as hell if there were no silly complaints. Can't we all just be friends, or at least people you nod to out of courtesy? :ninja:
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@uniaka:
Also, you guys think tankman stands a shot with the yonkou?
I see this form as nothing more than situational G4, not much unlike Water Luffy. Totland is one of the rare places where Luffy can stuff his face with food during a fight. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the last time we see Tank Man, or if we don't see it again after Totland.
The form itself is a defensive form. It's more counting on the enemy to attack the big juicy part than actively attacking.
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I think it's still in the shop. I for one assume that you've actually got a secret forum identity
I browse parts of the forum all the time. Just not logged in.
A good Samaritan let me know about the shit festival going on in here this time and it was worse than I thought.So glad none of these people can ever affect the storyline in any way.
I never seen greg so angry about a chapter before
I'm not angry about this chapter in the least. That was to get the naysayers to think about what they're really saying.
And when I have been upset by chapters, it doesn't look nearly as pretty as that ^O^ -
Short list, of the top of my head, of people in OP who are fine with beating up either gender.
Pell, Luffy, Magellan, that fat guy from Skypiea who beat up on Robin, Enel, Crocodile, Ivankov, Aokiji, Galdino, Django, that weird kabuki guy from CP9, probably the entirety of the CP9 grouping really, Fuhranky, that guy who looks like Steven Tyler who's name i'm drawing a blank on. I'm probably forgetting somebody, but it's a start.
Gekko Moriah was pretty willing to attack an unconscious Robin after stealing her shadow and he did try to crush Nami with Oars too.
Kuro, even though he wasn't personally going to kill Kaya planned her murder.
Usopp's a weird case in as much as he's fought a fair few women, but hasn't really physically struck a single one of them to defeat them(Miss Merry Christmas, Perona, Sugar). Just broke them psychologically, or used an outside factor to defeat them.