The main issue I have with the anime (by itself, without comparing it with the manga) are those long sequences of nothing happening. Half an episode roaming the empty shelter. Half an episode fishing and eating fish. A whole episode of sneaking in a demon city + snippets of demon culture. An episode of children talking instead of showing a proper flashback.
The Promised Neverland
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Is it actually important or is the internet over-reacting? And why would the skip stuff when the manga is already done and they know exactly how much material they have?
Since the manga is done they not want to spend several seasons anymore since there's no need to promote the manga and its not the money machine demon slayer is.
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It's still selling really well though.
Also there's gonna be a mobile game with golden pond as one of it's maps.
https://www.gematsu.com/2021/02/the-promised-neverland-escape-the-hunting-grounds-for-ios-android-launches-this-spring-in-japan
So yeah a lot of baffling decisions are being done. -
So, me and the wife have been watching the anie, haven't read the manga… but now I'm seeing that season 2 has completely dropped the ball and is apparently leaving out huge chunks of stuff?
Is it actually important or is the internet over-reacting? And why would the skip stuff when the manga is already done and they know exactly how much material they have?
If you liked the first arc, then the second arc is really the closest you would get to the first in terms of an arc that is actually well thought out and does not count on shounen tropes to hard carry it.
Everything else after is a giant fuzz for me and the anime is going to make it worse because it is going to double the speed of what is already mediocre.Like, if you went and did a poll on everyone who read this the consensus you would get from 90% of them is that the second arc is better and my own opinion is that it is 90% better than the last painful haul of the final arc.
Hard disagree on the over-reaction. If Madhouse dropped Heavens Arena from Hunter, I will have a raging boner too.
But if you like kids fighting demons with occasional "hey that's clever but when I question it, it doesn't really make sense" moments then I'm sure this is fine.
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Yeah it's not overreacting at all. They literally hacked a quarter of the entire series out. I know they figured they wouldn't do more seasons (who knows why not because by all indications it's a solid seller and there's the Amazon adaptation on the way, etc) bit if it came down to it, would have been much better to just end the anime after the second arc and leave the rest not adapted.
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So, reading twitter reactions … the season did not get any better
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I had hope for a moment, in the final episode, when the possibility was created for something new and interesting, but then….
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So they end the second season with a freakin' slideshow. Like "here's all the fun stuff that you won't get to watch".
I mean, the manga was pretty mediocre in the end … but this is on a whole nother level. What a shitshow. -
I just finished watching the last episode. I went into it with low expectations already, but what the heck happened with this? lol
I loved the manga, and I'm getting joys out of stuff like the adaptations for Jujutsu and Academia, so I wished that the powers above didn't choose this fast-forwarding route. I thought the whole reason for this was to have something different like FMA and Blue Exorcist, not rushing to get over with it with something that's a shadow of the original story.
Among what I heard about the author not liking how the manga went, or how the fans didn't like how the manga went, or how the series isn't relevant or profitable anymore, I don't know what's the truth.
Cleansing the palette with Dr. Stone now…
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So I haven't seen any of Season 2 yet, but…it's done, right? The whole anime is done? So they rushed through the entire rest of the series in 11 episodes? My god.
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To be precise: they skipped goldy pond and made an adaptation of the last arc. So it went: meeting Mujika and the other demon, finding the shelter, getting chased out of the shelter, going to a demon town where they meet Norman and his lambda friends in anime original final arc. Aside from anything related to goldy pond, the anime removed the demon god, demon queen and royals.
Wash your hands.
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So I haven't seen any of Season 2 yet, but…it's done, right? The whole anime is done? So they rushed through the entire rest of the series in 11 episodes? My god.
I'd give a lung to get a Jason Schreier style post mortem on what the hell happened.
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A cute epilogue chapter for Emma and co.:
https://mangasee123.com/read-online/The-Promised-Neverland-chapter-181.9.htmlAside from anything related to goldy pond, the anime removed the demon god, demon queen and royals.
How . . . can you even end the story without those three?
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the anime removed the demon god, demon queen and royals.
They're technically there, just a few seconds worth total lol
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Spoiling the last episode
! - Isabella lives, Moms and Grace Field kids go to human world through a gate underground and live out their new lives
- The trio and lambda stay behind to "change the world" with Mujika/Sonju shown in slideshows
- The trio reunite with the kids in the last few secs of the episode
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Having them appear in a couple shots without context was dumb. Might as well go full anime original instead of subtly implying they skipped over part of the story near the end (which they did).
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I don't think I've ever seen an anime shoot itself in the face this badly. It's not like the manga was ongoing and they had to make up stuff. It's so baffling.
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Best guess anyone has is that while the first season was well received, it wasn't a ratings smash, (Not when Demon Slayer and Jujustsu Kaisen are around) and there's no tie in manga to keep promoting…
so the studio decided to just burn the license off as fast as possible rather than pour resources into it for another 4 or 5 years.
If you guys didn't want it that much just give it up and let another studio take it, cripes.
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That wouldn't make sense. TPN was well received in Japan even near the end, they released a live action movie last december and the authors still make oneshots every now and then. The franchise was still growing a bit and was popular in Japan.
Also the studio is probably going bankrupt or something, after butchering TPN and messing Wonder Egg Priority's schedule.
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There's a difference between being well received… and being a huge hit.
Critical acclaim by itself doesn't pay the bills.
Making some money on a project that's probably going to only lose viewership from where it was, and having to maintain that property for years and years while tying up your resources for it... versus trying out a new project that could be a big hit instead.
Inu Yasha was a huge hit and they still put it on hiatus and them crunched the last 200 chapters into 26 episodes. Sailor Moon is a perpetual crown jewel and the animation still completely botched and shortchanged the Crystal series. Negima never got a decent anime and they tried like three times. Berserk is a 30 year giant and has only gotten bad animes. Golgo 13 is one of the three longest running manga of all time and it only has a 50 episode anime. One Punch Man went from an amazing first season to a lousy second at a different studio.
When other Jump titles are being huge runaway smashes and that one is... so so? Being appreciated and liked isn't always enough if its not a HUGE success.
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The reason why TPN gets treated like this is because outside of the first two arcs everything else was mediocre.
If the overall plot is actually good maybe the studio would have a little more heart put into it.
Then again this is the same group that somehow made Persona 5 a complete snooze fest to go through.
Fate Grand was great but that's because fucking that up would actually have serious consequences for the studio.
Studio is inexperienced plus the source material when adapted will end up average at best has led to this.
I'm upset because I don't get to see Goldy Pond but I'm not that upset when I consider everything else after was terrible and Clover probably would have saved that money elsewhere over adapting the entire thing.In hindsight I think what happened was that they promised a season 2, saw the mess of the last few arcs and realized there's no way they can adapt the lackluster plot well enough to be successful.
But they promised and had to stick with doing a season 2. So they've had to do it but no way are they wasting their resources on a 3rd season when the hype has long died and the manga is over.
And they don't want the fans to pester them for years either. So they hired a guy from Japanese fiverr to ghostwrite it, speed everything up to the end so they can wash their hands off it by having a closure.
Amped up the marketing to get the hype money and released this steaming pile of crap that's actually impressive how disrespectful it is.
Sure, they could have done Goldy and never adapt the content ever again, but why would they prefer that if they are certain they won't touch it again?
The backlash they've received from this would be swept under the rug because of how fast paced and shallow the industry is and that damage to the reputation is better than promising another season they know will never turn up to be profitable enough.TPN is never going to get a full adaption except maybe some whack a few years down the road believes he can turn this into another Brotherhood but unless he rewrites half of the plot, that's never happening.
The first arc was the arc and a live action was even made to capitalize on it.
Said live action will never adapt the rest of the manga content simply because of how terribly average they were compared to the first few. -
I know it's not the same situation or whatever bit it's galling to me that Shokugeki no friggin Soma got a full (albeit not well animated) adaptation and this didn't.
I feel like any other option would have been better than torching the damn series on the way out but it is what it is.
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When Shokugeki's second season ended the manga was ongoing and was actually still pretty decent.
Heck even when the third season ended, the manga was still not as bad. -
The second half of Promised Neverland wasn't great, but it still deserves better than this.
Meanwhile, Bleach gets a revival for its god-awful last arc.
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I still haven't gotten to reading the manga since I was waiting for the anime only for… this... to happen... but even if the second half is weaker and could use some punching up... thats what a good anime adaptation DOES. They have the advantage of hindsight and time to fix or improve or better pace some things. Sometimes just having motion and music and dramatic lighting can make the difference in how efective a scene is.
Or if the ending is really that weak, just go FMA on it and make your own ending entirely. If no one is upset about losing the manga arc as is, then potetially something different could be a winner. At least it'd be a different thing as opposed to a rushed worthless crippled thing.
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Its a complete failue on the studio's part if they just outride decided "we're not up to the task of enhancing this material."Not when BLEACH of all things got a fantastic anime that's the entire reason it ran for 15 years. Or when Demon Hunter's anime propelled it from modest success to the biggest hit Jump has had in a decade.
At least try and then fail like One Punch Man did, don't just give up and burn it to the ground as fast as possible because you don't want it anymore.
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I see no reason for them to do a FMA 2003 and risk spending that amount of money and effort AND highly risk bombing it with an almost guarantee amount of fans dropping it once that happens.
FMA 2003 happened for a completely different reason.
Shitty anime original only endings have been happening for years it's just so rare nowadays this took everyone by surprise.
This is a business decision that completely ignores the creative integrity part. I'm not sure why or was it a legal binding for the author to green light this but I actually won't be surprised if they approved this.
A good example in recent years was the mess that was Tokyo Ghoul's adaption. That was a textbook case of capitalising on the parts that sell and everything else doesn't matter.
They butchered Ghoul and the anime likely exist for merchandising and to "ride the hype".
Re: was terrible with only a redeeming first arc but Ghoul was actually fine. What's happening to TPN was happening to Ghoul so if you looked at how it worked, you'll understand why this happened.Personally I feel like Soma and Re: still had some consistency in them and TPN took a nonsensical change that betrays a lot of what made it interesting in the first place.
But that's subjectivity and alot of why people believe TPN deserves a full adaption is based on that same line of subjectivity.There's no use spending thousands on buying cake dressing for a shit cake if the end result is still going to be shit.
In this case, theres also the time factor where most people would lose interest as time pass.
Ps: I'm not saying TPN is that bad to be considered a shit cake but it is likely a perception the studio have that helped drove a decision.Bleach gets another adaption because the overseas bros won't shut up and the game app is making them money.
The series also has the advantage of ending at a nice spot that won't literally take them seasons of commitment to cover to the end.
There's demand and there's going to be supply. Burn the witch actually has cult like idiots praising the work.Anime and manga is a business that doesn't care about our personal feelings.
Big surprise. -
I don't think I've ever seen an anime shoot itself in the face this badly. It's not like the manga was ongoing and they had to make up stuff. It's so baffling.
Good that you didn't watch the newer houshin engi.
At least you'll always have the first season.
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Golgo 13 is one of the three longest running manga of all time and it only has a 50 episode anime.
If we're being fair would anyone want to sit through an adaptation of Golgo 13 that adapts as much of the 199 Volume, 600+ chapters of Golgo 13. Especially between how formulaic the series is.
I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284
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Is it fair to say CloverWorks just didn't have the resources to handle this series? Because I feel like they should have had it animated at least through Goldy Pond before the manga was done its run. I'm looking around at this series' peers (for example AssClass was same length and essentially same volume sales) and I feel like they definitely should have gotten more out the door while the manga was ongoing.
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If we're being fair would anyone want to sit through an adaptation of Golgo 13 that adapts as much of the 199 Volume, 600+ chapters of Golgo 13. Especially between how formulaic the series is.
Beats me, I haven't read it.
But One Piece, Conan, Pokemon, etc. are all at about the thousand episode mark and its fine. Naruto when combined with its spinoffs is there. Sazae san has been running for decades.
If it can support being a hyper long runner then it can. The fans of a property are perfectly willing to go for hundreds of episodes.
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Beats me, I haven't read it.
But One Piece, Conan, Pokemon, etc. are all at about the thousand episode mark and its fine. Naruto when combined with its spinoffs is there. Sazae san has been running for decades.
If it can support being a hyper long runner then it can. The fans of a property are perfectly willing to go for hundreds of episodes.
Some of them anyway hence why we got Kai…....and that was for a 200+ episode anime.
And even if you can get away with making something 1000+ episodes that' a lot of content to sift through with some bullshit in between.
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Finally got around to reading the thing.
I liked it. I can understand some of the complaints but the rough edges in the pacing really really could have been fixed by the anime, it wasn't that broken.
Maybe because I started with a final chapter count and knew what the pace had to be, compared to those that read it weekly and had no idea? People were upset there was a timeskip that just brushed over the boring stuff?
But I liked the ending. Another 20 or 30 chapters to flesh things out a little more in the middle, make it a bit more gradual before all the strong characters (both demon and human) showed up, and I think it would have been fine. And animation certainly could have made the action scenes and big battles shine some more.
Like, I can see where the complaints come from, especially in that it switched from a suspense to more of an action thing but that was kind of always inevitable? The impression I got was the second half was a godawful plummet off a cliff… and it really wasn't. I really really think a solid anime adaptation could have fixed the issues, and no, it wouldn't require a complete rewrite at all... just some hindsight adjustments in pacing and spreading focus..
If they didn't have the strict 2 year timeline to get things done and the characters had spent years growing and hardening instead I think the shifts in story tone would have more acceptable and expected?
I might even pick up the physical release if they ever do a nice 3-1 deluxe release.
Still a better ending than the entire second half of Death Note, and people still love that.
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It is the binge vs weekly effect, you didn't get to expect any number of results, and them going with something in the middle of the list.
The series lost a lot of it's uniqueness when it went from outsmarting to outgunning, then the cast inflated but the new characters, other than Jugo, were just there, specially Ray who could have died back in the farm and most of the plot would have stayed the same.
And the final quick succession of self disposing villains, seeing Isabella's sacrifice a mile away didn't make it a good twist, same with Ratri, the queen or Andrew.
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Still a better ending than the entire second half of Death Note, and people still love that.
Death Note gets a pass because there is a moment earlier that feels like an ending to the story. The character winning in the fashion he did and the way the world change make it feels like an ending to the story. And the rest is an add-on.
As a result it is easy to mentally seperate it into one story and its sequel .Its easier to not hold as much a grudge against the series since you can easily disconnect the overtly loved par from the controversial part.
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Yeah, I think Death Note was actually a lot more consistent than TPN and had a good payoff despite the controversial ending with how bs Near's win felt.
But I think the ending to Light's story was the payoff and that he was eventually dethroned because of his arrogance which shows how human he actually was despite being god.
It's a character arc that made sense and despite how Near and Mello was budget Ls, it wasn't as if the authors were going to end the story once L died or purposely choose not to kill L, it was always a story about Light.
Sure, he did become careless and made dumb decisions near the end, but other side characters(Matsuda) beside him and L also went through character arcs that made sense and wasn't meaningless.
Death Note still has a strong legacy despite the criticism of Near and I think while Near is often meme'd as a plot device to be the one that ended Light, that's too simplistic a view and there were a number of factors that help pushed his demise.With TPN? Ray was heavily implied to be Isabella's son, that wasn't really dealt with. Heck, after Ray's involvement in the early years he was shafted hard.
And that thing with Norman is a wreck and was likely that last domino piece with how it was handled.
The story pushed the friendship and dedication approach hard while throwing away the meticulous, intelligent and strategizing part away real damn fast.IMO, DN and TPN are leagues away from each another and if you want something feel good and have characters that you are emotionally invested in coming out happy despite how illogical it is then I guess that's TPN for you.
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With TPN, I think it's basically the One Piece effect. As in a lot of people prefer the earlier more intimate One Piece adventures, but now that the series has evolved the arcs have become more complex due to having to incorporate all the overarching world stuff, which also results in leaving many of the Strawhats to the wayside. Nothing inherently wrong with it since that's where the series was always going, but..it just kinda sucks.
And the lamb lies down on Broadway
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Shameless plug to everyone who still revisits this thread,
go check out Shadows House.
The anime is currently running (it is pretty good) but the manga experience is amazing by itself and can be a different experience. It's coloured too!Shadows House is like TPN if it stuck with the same premise, with some elements of Goldy Pond and is a very intelligent series about kids outwitting their enemies creatively.
I cannot stress how good it is enough and how it did so many things right. -
Death Note's second half was complete shit. First half was 10/10, then post L it was like 0/10.
I binged that series too after it was all done and my interest just dropped like a stone in the second half, so its not just a case of "reading weekly versus binging".
Once they put the death note in a rocket it was too much, and had to pull out a guy who could make a perfect imitation note in a few hours and needed like 9 people to do the wrong thing for the ending to work… it just did not work for me at all in the second half.
TPN which I binged in a similar amount of time... I felt it went from a 10/10 to a 9/10, then to a 7. But I never felt "what the hell is this stupid nonsense" that completely broke the story for me.
With TPN, I think it's basically the One Piece effect. As in a lot of people prefer the earlier more intimate One Piece adventures, but now that the series has evolved the arcs have become more complex due to having to incorporate all the overarching world stuff, which also results in leaving many of the Strawhats to the wayside. Nothing inherently wrong with it since that's where the series was always going, but..it just kinda sucks.
Maybe that's it. One Piece has trained me to get use to a world scope series eventually having to abandon the small intimate cast. The focus was always clearly Emma so it didn't bother me too much when Ray fell a bit to the side… though if the series had been longer maybe he'd have gotten a focus arc after Goldy Pond. But the cast exploding to be a zillion side characters was fine for me. maybe BECAUSE I knew exactly how long the series was going to be I wasn't realistically expecting most of them to do anything. While if you were reading i weekly and thought the series was going to try and run for 10 or 15 years you'd expect more.
(The way we futilely hoped for the secondary cast of Naruto to someday do something, or for anyone besides like three guys in MHA to be relevent)
But since even from the start it was all about Emma and her kindness... and literally 30 other kids, a million secondaries didn't bother me... though maybe more than 4 or 5 them should have died along the way.
The big complaint I keep seeing is "the first arc was all suspense and intrigue... and then it turned all action." I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't expect it to get more actioney once they were out and had to deal with, well, demons. And its a cast of 12 year olds, they weren't going to be able to just sneak through everything by outwitting one person. You can have them running and hiding and just barely scraping by for a while, sure, but eventually something had to give.
Multiple superhumans showing up that could kill the demons with swords was a bit much and out of nowhere, that needed a more gradual buildup. And the important demon army leaders probably needed some more leadup too. Like amybe if Geelan's fflashback had been shown before he was introduced, so you knew going in who this guy was and why they'd try to make a deal with him and why he hated the queen, that would have made things easier to follow and digest, rather than getting that flashback really late... and that's the sort of pacing issue that hindsight and the anime could have easily fixed.
I guess it TPN had taken 10 years to tell the exact same story but shifted its genre and expanded the cast more gradually the change would have been more acceptable for most, but that would probably have been too long to tell the story they were telling. It definitely needed some more room to breathe, even one more year and another 4 or 5 volumes (getting it to close to FMA length) probably would have made a lot of difference overall.
I agree that it rushed things, but I don't feel like it really betrayed what it was like others seem to. The whole time it was about Emma trying to save everyone, and, mostly, managing it.
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I really just think there's no point in upscaling the size of the setting when and if the writers already knew when it was going to end.
The world felt needlessly big and there were way too many characters when all of that could have been halved.Enma just talked everyone out of everything towards the end and that was damaging to her character and the premise.
Norman was literally going full on genocider with a whole group of children who believed the same thing and the panels after that was hilarious with all of them agreeing after Emma just waltz in and said stuff.
And the issue with Sonju that would have been an actual issue for Emma? Oops let's throw in one liner and that's over with.
And wasn't there a hunter girl that really hates Norman but friendship and love got that dealt with too.Emma doesn't even plan, half of the time she got of situations by luck and the other by plot convenience.
And the blatant plot armour where new kids were introduced to be killed off so that orphanage kids were kept alive was terrible writing to up stakes.And mujika was crowned queen despite the fact that more than half of them have no idea who she is. Is..is the demons capable of thought? I was pretty sure they written to be capable of thought and can be individualistic when they want to.
I mean, I'm actually fine with Lewis coming back near the end but that was the peak of what rushed writing and how everything conveniently falls into place looks like.
Ratri jobbed so much it's miserable that he's supposed to be the last big bad in an intelligent manga. It's as if the characters intelligence is a good sign to the development of its quality.
See, I wasn't even talking about the kids at this point. And boy if we were to go into Norman and Ray are they another mess to untangle.This demons were supposed to be able to snap the kids neck with a wave of the fingers but they were so non threatening it was hilarious when in hindsight it was a breeze.
It's not a matter of the series changing tones or themes but even after it does, TPN was terrible as an action/adventure series. This drop would have been shown the door out if not for orphanage and goldy and that's really hard for anyone to deny that.
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Who are these people who liked the second half of Death Note?
sheepishly raises hand
I mean, I'll definitely grant you it wasn't as good as the first half, but…I still liked it. But then I haven't read it in, like, ten years. Perhaps it won't hold up nearly as well for me on a re-read.
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Emma doesn't even plan, half of the time she got of situations by luck and the other by plot convenience.
This demons were supposed to be able to snap the kids neck with a wave of the fingers but they were so non threatening it was hilarious when in hindsight it was a breeze.
Is this your first fiction story ever? That's everywhere.
Every series ever gives the heroes plot armor even when they have bad plans, and villains ALWAYS become less threatening as it goes and you grow the numbers. 1 ninja can take out an army, but an army of ninjas are just fodder.
Otherwise Luke Skywalker would have been killed on the Deathstar when all the stormtroopers were shooting at him.
All the X-Men would be dead hundred of times over.
Harry Potter would absolutely be dead if any of the villains displayed a single ounce of sense, and the badguys would have been easily defeated if anyone had trusted Harry for five minutes.
Sailor Moon and all her friends actually died but was then brought back by magic crystal.
Indiana Jones should be dead multiple times over.
Dragonball is built around the heroes trumping against all odds.
Luffy pretty much never has a plan and always just storms in, but complete plot contrivance saves him.Those are nearly universal in any "hero versus an army" stories. You can generally only play mindgames when there's a single opponent.
The entire narrative and themes and point of the whole thing was that Emma was naive and hopeful and wanted everyone to live… and everyone else told her that was unrealistic, but she pushed on and was right all the same. Optimism and hero stuff and heart prevail over cold stark logic.
If that message was wrong, then it should have felt wrong from the very first arc and it should have been just the three kids escaping and leaving all the rest to die. But from the every start Emma insisted on saving everyone, and she did a decent job at it. Still some casualties along the way, but not the genocide of an entire race there would have been otherwise.
Big hero speeches can turn people around, it's pretty common. And Emma arriving on scene and staring them down with "you KNOW this is wrong and you don't really want to do it" is enough because she has the strength to hold to her convictions even when the logical thing, the EASY thing, is to just kill them all.
It's still a shonen series at the end of the day, it wasn't trying to be Berserk, nor could it be, and I'm glad it didn't try to be Hunter Hunter which is just kind of nihilistic at this point. (Even Berserk was fairly optimistic after the one big mass slaughter.)
I agree that the humans power creeped too fast and out of nowhere, the series defintiely had flaw and wasn't as good in its second half... but heroes having plot armor (but after several of them died!) isn't at all unique to this series. Emma's friends giving into her selfish wishes when she was just trying for the best possible outcome isn't a weakness of the series, it was it's main theme and message from the very start. It showcases just how strong Emma's will and determination were, and that's super common in shonen.
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Norman and Ray were always the brains, Emma was the heart.
And I think it was made pretty clear that Emma was hardly an idiot. It's jut that so many other people around her were THAT smart.
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Death Note's second half was complete shit. First half was 10/10, then post L it was like 0/10.
I binged that series too after it was all done and my interest just dropped like a stone in the second half, so its not just a case of "reading weekly versus binging".
Once they put the death note in a rocket it was too much, and had to pull out a guy who could make a perfect imitation note in a few hours and needed like 9 people to do the wrong thing for the ending to work… it just did not work for me at all in the second half.
Death note doesnt get the a pass because it ends better. It gets a pass because there is a clear end point people like . The cat and mouse between Light and L end in grandiose fashion and Light takes over the world. So you get the payoff to the story you've been following. And because there is a conclusion it makes it easy to divorce the story you liked from everything that came after. You cant really do that with Neverland.
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The cat and mouse between Light and L end in grandiose fashion and Light takes over the world.
Light gets a demon to cheat for him and breaks the game without ever actually having to learn L's name. It's not grandiose or a satisfying finale, it only works for a mid-game twist.
Granted the heroes then have to cheat like crazy to win in the second half so I guess it works out.
The films actually made it better when they had L fake his death by putting his name in the note sooner.
You cant really do that with Neverland.
If you want to choose an absolutely arbitrary stopping point with the magic power to turn off your brain and forget the parts you don't like entirely and just imagine the rest to your liking, then TPN you can just stop after the escape from the house. The anime sure did.
It's a reasonably fair comparison in terms of length too, both series hit that point after five or six volumes.
I all the time argue that the third season of Gargoyles didn't happen, and I can get away with that because it changed titles and creative teams, and the third season was so awful I haven't watched it in 23 years. But it still happened.
Exo Squad had a perfect ending point, and then they went 1 episode further and ended stuff on a cliffhanger. Reboot had an amazing third season… then came back for an awful fourth season.. that ended on a cliffhanger. The first Full Metal Alchemist series is really good until the last three or so episodes. Naruto had a decent stopping point before its time skip. Buffy is better if you stop at season 5, but then you lose the musical episode. Game of Thrones you can probably stop around where the third book ends and the entire cast are off on optimistic journeys and leave it open ended, but...
The only way you can stop and divorce the two halves is if you personally never saw the second half. You don't know to ignore it until you've already seen it. You have to pretend REALLY HARD to just imagine half the series doesn't exist, that it didn't let you down along the way. And if you can arbitrarily just say "the part that wasn't as good doesn't count" you can elevate a lot of things by willfully ignoring stuff.
A story having a lesser second half doesn't diminish the quality of that first part the first time you experienced it, but it sits there and taints the experience all the same and keeps you from wanting to go back to revisit the earlier stuff.
But if a 10/10 drops to a 7/10, that's not so bad.
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The fact that Ray is Isabella's biological son is shown in the manga, or was it only on a "special" chapter?
There were a few chapters that run after the series ended, that could/should have been part of the main story, imo.Also, I didn't feel like humans had a power creep during the series.
At first we simply see a bunch of kids and subservient adults dealing with the demons, so of course they stand little chance. But then we start dealing with adults and genetic modifications so the playfield is evened. There used to be a full on war betwen humans and demons and that's when the humans used bows and arrows and swords, humans were so good at it that they force the demons to use a mask. A human with an automatic gun should be at least as strong as a knight. -
Every series ever gives the heroes plot armor even when they have bad plans, and villains ALWAYS become less threatening as it goes and you grow the numbers. 1 ninja can take out an army, but an army of ninjas are just fodder.
Oh I thought we were examining TPN on levels that are above the shounen cliches like stuff that Naruto pulls.
I mean, I'm not intentionally tunnel visioning TPN into this super sophisticated series that it must live up to and the only reason why people do that is because the first arc that took an entire year actually set the tone and quality for what to expect.
Maybe I miscommunicated or something but I'm pretty sure that if we were to set the bar as oh its a kids manga, oh a tons of battle shounen did this trope before so now it's justifiable for a series with a premise that takes its realism and suspense seriously to do it then like, I don't understand what exactly is the point.To draw an example, the whole reason Naruto went downhill real fast was because the entire Pain situation was resolved with big hero speeches and then again and again.
Sure, naruto was never about ninjas training to assassinate one another even if it happens, it never was the focus. and the main character was a bundle of sun so you would think the series would have gotten away with that.
Except it doesn't because the very first arc of the series delved into how corrupted and shit the ninja world is. The expectation was set. And people can't really go but that's only the first arc! when the backdrop is an entire massacre of a clan and a few character deaths before he pulled that hero speech moment.The resounding solution to that was to "superimpose his peace is good because I said so and have no practicality to back up my ideals" and in hindsight at the very end of the series what happened was peace was achieved because he was a walking nuclear bomb.
Sure, TPN wasn't trying to be Berserk or HXH but it sure as hell wasn't Fairy Tail. One piece isn't trying to be Berserk or HXH but Luffy sure as hell isn't going to make a giant peace speech and have everyone live the way he believes is right and then everyone goes oh well I see your point, I'll do it!. That's what set the series different and why he's such a good MC because he doesn't superimpose and the author is self aware enough to understand that characters and worlds are complicated.
Thinking back to W7 with Usopp, he was not even able to convince him to act the way he wanted despite Oda establishing the charisma and emotional aptitude of his character. for several arcs This is because the author understands that characters are complex beings and are organic enough not be streamlined into one thought process, that's great writing.How Emma was handled, along with the thought processes of Ray and Norman, showed none to little of that.
I don't understand how you can set the same expectations for TPN after reading the first arc with the same expectations you will have for Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball considering the intentional portrayal of the themes of the series by the author. And this isn't even exclusive for the beginning arcs because the series was obviously still toeing the line between really dark themes and friendship and love in its second half.
Otherwise Luke Skywalker would have been killed on the Deathstar when all the stormtroopers were shooting at him.
All the X-Men would be dead hundred of times over.
Harry Potter would absolutely be dead if any of the villains displayed a single ounce of sense, and the badguys would have been easily defeated if anyone had trusted Harry for five minutes.
Sailor Moon and all her friends actually died but was then brought back by magic crystal.
Indiana Jones should be dead multiple times over.
Dragonball is built around the heroes trumping against all odds.
Luffy pretty much never has a plan and always just storms in, but complete plot contrivance saves him.I think maybe I wasn't clear about the sentence with demons snapping the necks.
It's not about how they don't manage to kill the heroes but rather how much of a non-threat they actually turned out to be.
Lewis was the first actual enemy encounter in the series and he turned out to be both the most competent and memorable one and you know that actually speaks a lot about the series.
Peter Ratri was not memorable, Isabella hard carried the entire series as a villain, and the queen had a good design but that's it..and was killed by a poison? bioweapon? you can easily find essay long rants on how terrible and contrived that was.In the case of Luffy and plot contrivances, it was also always plot contrivances that always puts him at a disadvantage or out of the scene at the start and often times it actually works against him too so there's a sort of balance there.
Those are nearly universal in any "hero versus an army" stories. You can generally only play mindgames when there's a single opponent.
I think your point here is that in a realistic situation, "fodder" canon army would have killed fictional characters time over time again and while I agree I think the issue here is that the instances where the one felt like being fodderized here was mostly the demons and adults who are physically superior than the kids. And it's a good point but in similarly, you have AoT which does the same thing where the main cast was protected by the universal code of plot armor but somehow all the encounters with the titans didn't felt like a fodder/army situation and that was pretty good execution.
I can't really say the same for TPN's handling of the demons.The entire narrative and themes and point of the whole thing was that Emma was naive and hopeful and wanted everyone to live… and everyone else told her that was unrealistic, but she pushed on and was right all the same. Optimism and hero stuff and heart prevail over cold stark logic.
I think the issue with optimism and hero stuff isn't the problem but how it was overemphasized on and in your face. A balance between pragmatism, rationality and her optimism would have benefitted the series a lot more rather than the entire narrative moving according to her thoughts. That's..that's kind of why Ray and Norman is there for.
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The fact that Ray is Isabella's biological son is shown in the manga, or was it only on a "special" chapter?
There were a few chapters that run after the series ended, that could/should have been part of the main story, imo.Yes, she figured it out because he knew the same song she hummed when he was in the womb. Chapter 37. But its kind of there in a page and then it moves on. It's a bit more obvious in the anime.
The bonus chapters REALLY spelled it out. But yes, they could have been incorporated to flesh it out more but that's an awkward fit that spoils the surprise on some of them. And stopping for two chapters to do a Crone flashback when she covers that same ground in dialogue in a panel is fine. It works as supplemental material.
Also, I didn't feel like humans had a power creep during the series.
At first we simply see a bunch of kids and subservient adults dealing with the demons, so of course they stand little chance. But then we start dealing with adults and genetic modifications so the playfield is evened. There used to be a full on war betwen humans and demons and that's when the humans used bows and arrows and swords, humans were so good at it that they force the demons to use a mask. A human with an automatic gun should be at least as strong as a knight.The genetically modified guys is what I'm referring to. They basically came out of nowhere but were suddenly able to fight demons hand to hand or decapitate them with a single sword and fight three at once. It was a maaaassive power creep on the heroes' side… that also meant anyone that wasn't one of those super guys was going to be less important from that point.
The goodguys winning with superior tactics and firepower worked just fine. Them being able to win in 1 on 1 combat and start fodderizing them was a bit of an escalation and part of what sped the series up so much..
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To draw an example, the whole reason Naruto went downhill real fast was because the entire Pain situation was resolved with big hero speeches and then again and again.
Nah, Pain was the absolute breaking point of the series ever being good again, but it had already been bad for years at that point. The rescue Sasuke arc before the time skip was the last half decent arc, and event hat was undermined by its ending. Everything post timeskip was wonk.
Chunin Exam was the last truly good Naruto arc.
Luffy sure as hell isn't going to make a giant peace speech and have everyone live the way he believes is right and then everyone goes oh well I see your point, I'll do it!.
Luffy does that ALL THE TIME though?
Yes, the ultimate solution is for him to personally punch out the big bad, but along the way he overcome obstacles by turning hundreds of people to his side mid-arc, including enemies. His charisma and presence (and king haki I guess) and making friends and getting them to trust him are his biggest strength, this is frequently commented on. They wouldn't have made it anywhere without his ability to convince people to his side, to trust in him, almost instantly.
And that's not a recent thing, that goes as far back as Axe Hand Morgan and winning over all the marines there.
I don't understand how you can set the same expectations for TPN after reading the first arc with the same expectations you will have for Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball considering the intentional portrayal of the themes of the series by the author.
Because it ran in Shonen Jump. I know that means its going to eventually be an action manga, and Goldy Pond certainly set that in motion.
But in Jump heart and determination are going to win and save most of the people most of time, with generally only a handful of significant named losses.
I kind of thought the kids would grow up as it went and they'd be the ones doing the action, but the two year timetable kind of prevented that.
I think maybe I wasn't clear about the sentence with demons snapping the necks.
It's not about how they don't manage to kill the heroes but rather how much of a non-threat they actually turned out to be.
Lewis was the first actual enemy encounter in the series and he turned out to be both the most competent and memorable one and you know that actually speaks a lot about the series.That is true of of a lot of stories though, not just shonen. Its often one of the first villains (or hero!) that's the best or the most memorable, partly because the heroes are still at their weakest and thats the one you get the most time and characterization for. Why do you think Dragonball keeps bringing back Frieza but has Buu sits on the sidelines? Why did Vegeta become a main character while Raditz and Nappa were left for dead? Why are all the good Spiderman villains the ones he had in his first 50 issues, almost 60 years ago? Why is it when you watch Doctor Who its usually the first Doctor you see that ends up being your favorite?
That's extremely common. Pointing back to One Piece, look at the most recent popularity poll. Crocodile is still in the top 20 and most of the other villains are much much lower down. The early Strawhats are all consistently in the top 10 but Franky and Brook are in the 20's. It's natural for that to happen.
Peter Ratri was not memorable,
Id argue that he wasn't supposed to be personally. He was representing a fucked up society more than a particular individual. His family had been doing it for 1000 years, he was just the latest in line. It wasn't ABOUT him, he was just the last obstacle. Heck, he didn't even show up in person until what, the last dozen chapters? AFTER the demons had already been taken of?
Isabella hard carried the entire series as a villain, and the queen had a good design but that's it..and was killed by a poison? bioweapon?
They killed her first core, (fatal in earlier cases) overloaded her regeneration process by inflicting mass damage, (worked in earlier cases) AND poisoned her. Her system couldn't keep up. it was a legit strategy built upon what had been shown to work previously.
you can easily find essay long rants on how terrible and contrived that was.
You can find essay long rants about how literally anything is terrible. The internet is full of such things.
but in similarly, you have AoT which does the same thing where the main cast was protected by the universal code of plot armor but somehow all the encounters with the titans didn't felt like a fodder/army situation and that was pretty good execution.
Attack on Titan is complete garbage . You can easily find essay long rants on how terrible and contrived that was.
A balance between pragmatism, rationality and her optimism would have benefitted the series a lot more rather than the entire narrative moving according to her thoughts. That's..that's kind of why Ray and Norman is there for.
She was the lead character. From the start. The story was ALWAYS about her heart versus their brain. Otherwise just the three of them would have escaped in the third chapter and been done with it, nevermind the others.
They had plans and kept carrying them out, with the ultimatum "IF Emma can do X, in time, we'll go with the pacifist route. If she can't, we nuke them all." Emma managed X in time. They didn't bend over backwards to accommodate her desires, but they reached the point where they COULD go forward without any more death… so they did.
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Light gets a demon to cheat for him and breaks the game without ever actually having to learn L's name. It's not grandiose or a satisfying finale, it only works for a mid-game twist.
The story most of the audience cared for was the rivalry between L and Light. And the expectation was that the story would end with L dying or Light getting captured for some life sentence. The story managed to stay good until it happened. Then proved disapointing past it. It doesnt mean the rest is good but its a lot easier to forgive since the part people cared was mostly handled well and the rest never had expectation on it since usually dont expect the story to continue past it. And when you dont have expectation you get less dissapointed
The films actually made it better when they had L fake his death by putting his name in the note sooner.
The movies did have the best ending by having both die.
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The genetically modified guys is what I'm referring to. They basically came out of nowhere but were suddenly able to fight demons hand to hand or decapitate them with a single sword and fight three at once. It was a maaaassive power creep on the heroes' side… that also meant anyone that wasn't one of those super guys was going to be less important from that point.
The goodguys winning with superior tactics and firepower worked just fine. Them being able to win in 1 on 1 combat and start fodderizing them was a bit of an escalation and part of what sped the series up so much..
Yeah, I see your point.
They didn't bother me much, I ended up seeing them as side characters/magguffins, just chess pieces with the minimum amount of characterization to hold their ground. They felt like a bigger machine gun, not new important characters. -
For me, the ending of Reversi in Bakuman is what I'll assume is the real ending that Ohba wanted to write.
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