Obviously people feel like the immigration is causing the country harm. I have a hard time believing it's all just being racist rather than believing that the immigration is an issue. It's the same way in the US with people from Mexico or in a lot of European countries with the refugees. Though I'm sure some of it is racism, and I'm not saying it's okay to be yelling at people on the street like that.
Brexit thread (Britain's leaving the EU)
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Like 90% of it is straight-up racism covered in economic dogwhistles.
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@Cyan:
Like 90% of it is straight-up racism covered in economic dogwhistles.
From facebook and other sites it seems most people voting to leave did not even know what the EU was so they did not care.
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Obviously people feel like the immigration is causing the country harm.
Competing for those precious few jobs in the 5% unemployment nightmare economy.
I have a hard time believing it's all just being racist rather than believing that the immigration is an issue.
And what is the issue with the immigration lol.
It's the same way in the US with people from Mexico
Well for starters no, because the thing in the US is focused on illegal immigration, not legal immigration. Even the Republicans have RARELY RARELY ever talked against legal immigration, unless its super specific as with Trump and Muslims. Its basically completely unheard of for attacks on legal immigration.
And of course even if it was….what the hell is your point lol?
Do you think we'd be like "Oh yeah, you're right. I HATE Mexican immigration!"??
And oh of course, as a final note, the complaints about Mexican illegals are laced with loads of racism.So really this comparison is a tad flawed to say the least.
or in a lot of European countries with the refugees.
In that they also suck horribly….wait again what point are you making here?
"No, it's ok. Because its like these other bad things."...?–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Cyan:
Like 90% of it is straight-up racism covered in economic dogwhistles.
I'd say that a significant part of it wasn't racism but straight up dumbassed nationalism and pride.
Like there's always been this sort of attitude of some of the British that seems to not really accept that they're part of Europe in the same way as the rest. I've even heard Europe just straight up phrased as a different place lol.
I mean what else do you call the country the least beholden and least effected by being in the EU….complaining loudest about being in the EU.Also all the disgusting crap about "this is our independence day!". Ugh.
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Someone on Facebook is collecting the racist shit going on: https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3
are they also going to split this part into two movies
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this is that shit that makes me just quietly hug Peru and ignore it when it asks why I'm crying
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keep everything in spoilers so we don't bore everyone to death….and your big ass posts.
! could you like shorten everything you write? It gets jarring, just like summarize it or something. And you using the "Lol" in such a patronizing and rude way..
! Dude i've lived close to stuff for a good portion of my life, I was informed of every detail. Every time I turned on the news when I was younger there was something new. Every single day. I'm not arguing with you anymore because the case and point is that you are looking up wiki articles, but you still don't have any grasp of what the country is actually like. I do, I've been there. I have lived like 50 miles away from the border ? There are no longer physical borders between NI and Ireland, so I can simply drive anywhere on the island without a passport. The borders were lifted as part of the peace process long long ago. It's not a religious war. GET IT! I do know this better than you. Some Unionists are Catholic and some Republicans are Protestant. That's rare, it is 99% the other way, but the war was never about religion, not if you care to look at the real reason for it. Not if you know anything at all about Irish history. I do. I know someone who died…. not for being Catholic, but because they mistook his identity as being with the collins. The people of Ireland fought for their freedom and won. But the 6 counties of the North continued that war. Stop putting the religion thing down my throat. The war reduced to terrorism, rather than a real cause, and sure they burned each others churches and whatnot. It was about being either Scottish decent or Irish decent and wanting to be united under their respective countries. Obviously religion was used to attack the other side. Attack what people hold most dear, which is pure terrorism. It went that people on the outside no longer cared about the real reason, they just saw religion. Terrorists don't give a shit who they kill, just look at Omagh. A Catholic friend of Ulster Unionist leader Ian Paisley was killed in that attack. It opened eyes because people finally saw what was happening. The terrorists wanted to hurt anyone to make an impact and it spurred Paisley on to do something about making this peace thing work. There was a change in attitudes of politicians. I know people who were hurt in that attack actually. You've never lived close to the reality of this type of thing, so you only understand what articles and media say, not what the people close to it know and see.
! BTW, they didn't have their own parliament. At least not a representative one. It was under British control. Stormount existed physically, but, it did not represent ALL the people. Now it is a parliament of both sides who can sit together and work for the future of NI. It is now their own, not one sided. They each have equal say without discrimination against Republicans. Nothing happens overnight you know. No one said that it did, and no one said that it wasn't ongoing "rolls eyes"
! The Republicans still wish to be united Ireland, and the others want to remain UK, but now thanks to years of talks, and support from the UK and Ireland, they actually can sit together in parliament and talk, rather than fight. It is not quite as crazy there are YOU think it is. We were terrified to cross the border before and during the 90's and early 00's. There was a physical border then with towers and armed forces. Those were removed long ago and took us years to trust going to "The North." There's still some tensions, but holy hell, I am not terrified now to go there. We often went over the border in more recent years to buy alcohol at Christmas because it's cheaper and they used to accept 1 Euro per 1 Pound in some places to take advantage of getting customers in from the south. You're acting like it's still a warzone. The only way you know that you're on the other side of the border if you didn't notice the two lines on the road is the change in road markings and signage.
! Northern Ireland will not survive on it's own if they do break away from the UK. It's far too small. That's the reality. Just made a point that if they did that would be the only way they could do it. The only way of remaining peaceful would be to join as their own country. There will never be a united Ireland in my lifetime, because it would cause a new war within NI. The peace process works through 3 governments working together. They know their only sensible option is to stay with the UK.
Also, there is probably a Northern Irish member around here who will probably tell you to leave it off.
! I know you'll probably continue to think that I can't possibly know what goes on on this island, but whatever. I'm done. There is plenty you can probably rip in this post as well and find a wiki to disprove what I said, or expand on what I didn't explain. I was trying to be as brief as possible in my previous post so I didnt go into details. Nor should I have to. You're a person with internet articles. This is about Brexit, not the history of Northern Ireland, but since you're acting like you know everything about what life is like on this island... Fucking hell kid lol. -
Dude i've lived close to stuff for a good portion of my life, I was informed of every detail. Every time I turned on the news when I was younger there was something new. Every single day. I'm not arguing with you anymore because the case and point is that you are looking up wiki articles
I'm on the grad level friend, pouring through books for annotations and bibliographies research level.
Also even just living near something doesn't instantly and necessarily grant one extensive knowledge about the basic facts of it.
If you started arguing with an American about how yes in fact Puerto Rico is part of the US as a territory, and they kept saying it was a different country. Them being American wouldn't make them any less wrong.I do, I've been there. I have lived like 50 miles away from the border ? There are no longer physical borders between NI and Ireland, so I can simply drive anywhere on the island without a passport. The borders were lifted as part of the peace process long long ago.
Um…I never mentioned anything about the border between the Republic and NI.
(Also out of curiosity are you close to Cavan?)It's not a religious war. GET IT! Some Unionists are Catholic and some Republicans are Protestant. That's rare, it is 99% the other way, but the war was never about religion, not if you care to look at the real reason for it.
But I didn't say it was a religious war.
There's a reason I've been using the phrase "ethno-religious". The point is these two communities are defined by differences, the religion isn't quite the reason itself (though it is super relevant to historical events that created the hate and political origins). Its just a major marker of "Us and them".
Do you think the Yugoslav wars were religious? Nope. They weren't either. And yet the religious identities of the different groups became intertwined in the sectarian nature of "us and them". Don't focus on the religion, focus on its status as communal marker.Not if you know anything at all about Irish history.
Um… Irish history since the Reformation is heavily colored by religious tainted geopolitical violence. As was the case with England and Scotland too.
My region of the United States literally wouldn't exist if this wasn't true.I do. I know someone who died…. not for being Catholic, but because they mistook his identity as being with the collins.
Is this a phrase I'm not familiar with? Supporting Irish nationalism I'd guess? Well yeah that doesn't disagree with anything I said then.
The people of Ireland fought for their freedom and won. But the 6 counties of the North continued that war.
Who are we referring to with "6 counties of the North" here. The Protestants who basically ruled it?
Well uh no though, the British had already separated Ireland into two zones before independence. One of which was what became NI. Which quickly opted out of the independence won by that fighting in the other zone.
Fighting did continue…but it was a civil war in the newly independent country. A war between people who figured the terms of independence were acceptable, and those that thought they weren't. Its true one of the major parts of why the unsatisfied side hated the terms was because of NI not being included, but those people weren't from NI.
And again if we're bringing up personal closeness, this civil war is the reason 1/4 of me is in the United States at all.The war reduced to terrorism, rather than a real cause,
NI didn't really have much armed conflict until the Troubles started in the late 60's. There are a couple examples of small scale things going on before that, but these were big exceptions to the rule and were hardly all that bloody. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. You make it sound like NI was embroiled in war until the Troubles..where it became terrorism.
and sure they burned each others churches and whatnot.
See though? That's what I'm talking about, the church burning thing. The us vs them involves all aspects of the other groups identity. Hatred of them and their symbols. The churches might as well have been big flags.
It was about being either Scottish decent or Irish decent and wanting to be united under their respective countries.
This assumes Unionists identify with Scotland. They don't. Though most are of Scottish origin they tend to have kind of lost that history (amusingly just like the descendents of Ulster-Scots here in the US, easily the most clueless of where their ancestry is from of us all).
Their identity is heavily tied to literally "British". Not English, not Scottish. British. Its not the Scottish saltire they love flying, its not even the English red cross, its literally the Union Jack. Their historic narrative is one of "embattled frontiersman assailed by savage natives", and the big Mama at their back the whole time was "GREAT BRITAIN".Obviously religion was used to attack the other side. Attack what people hold most dear, which is pure terrorism. It went that people on the outside no longer cared about the real reason, they just saw religion.
And yet that religion is deeply tied into the tribal markers. Its not seperable.
Even in the US, Irish ancestry denotes Catholicism. Culturally speaking.You've never lived close to the reality of this type of thing,
A significantly massively worse terrorist event occurred pretty close to me a couple years after Omagh, you've probably heard about it I'm guessing.
But the US aside, I am in fact quite intimate with folks who are obscenely familiar with a conflict like that of Northern Ireland.
so you only understand what articles and media say, not what the people close to it know and see.
Aside from factual errors, you're mostly describing exactly what I was describing.
BTW, they didn't have their own parliament. At least not a representative one. It was under British control.
Stormount existed physically, but, it did not represent ALL the people. Now it is a parliament of both sides who can sit together and work for the future of NI.In the sense that there was intense discrimination against the Catholics yes. Which I uh..mentioned.
That doesn't change that it was a parliament. The reason (again like I said) it didn't work was because of that hate being so bad. The parliament idea only works when a climate of genuine civil power sharing government can exist.
tldr: The new parliament didn't cause peace, it was peace that caused the new parliament.The Republicans still wish to be united Ireland, and the others want to remain UK, but now thanks to years of talks, and support from the UK and Ireland, they actually can sit together in parliament and talk, rather than fight.
Yes. I never denied this.
It is not quite as crazy there are YOU think it is.
I'm not really describing something crazy.
We were terrified to cross the border before and during the 90's and early 00's. There was a physical border then with towers and armed forces. There's still some tensions, but holy hell, I am not terrified now to go there.
I have crossed a much more hypothetically terrifying tense militarized border between two peoples before, and yes lo and behold it was not the end of the world for anyone involved and was even fairly casual all things consiered. But it also didn't mean that intense fear, distrust ,and yes hate wasn't in existence. And this was a much more troubled situation then NI's.
I doubt that for visitors like ourselves especially that we can really glimpse most of it. It's not as cartoonish as all that.
Want to know something scary? Talk to or read interviews with Yugoslavs who remember before the 90's. You will be bombarded by stories about intercommunal living and general apathy to ethnicity among their neighbors.
The hate was subdued, somewhat forgotten, but latent. If one thing above all else made Slobodan Milosevic a monster it was that he saw that if he exploited that latent fear and hate among Serbs? That he could gain power. And that's exactly what he did. And all else came from there.We often went over the border in more recent years to buy alcohol at Christmas because it's cheaper and they used to accept 1 Euro per 1 Pound in some places to take advantage of getting customers in from the south.
Not that I'd be surprised if they weren't Catholic exactly, but did you know what group any over-the-border people you've interacted with are? Because the areas near the border are more heavily Catholic. Heavily Protestant areas are mostly the mid and upper east half of the place. And as I understand it the more intense sectarian vibes are in the urban areas, not the more rural zones closer to the Republic.
You're acting like it's still a warzone.
I'm really not though. Heck I'd never describe NI as a warzone even during the Troubles.
Northern Ireland will not survive on it's own if they do break away from the UK. It's far too small. That's the reality.
I'd agree. Which is exactly why the issue cleaving the communities still has potential for turmoil. Because it has not been made irrelevant at all yet. It's just gone politically civil, and socially subdued.
There will never be a united Ireland in my lifetime, because it would cause a new war within NI. The peace process works through 3 governments working together. They know their only sensible option is to stay with the UK.
Do you know what above else could destroy the peace? A person. Literally a person.
A loud, petty, talkative, obnoxious, jingoistic person. He could be Catholic, he could be Protestant, he could be a she too of course.
In this person would need to get involved in politics.
And this person would benefit from tough confusing times.
Like I said earlier, this was what opened the gates to hell in Yugoslavia.Also, there is probably a Northern Irish member around here who will probably tell you to leave it off.
We have had a few, including one who mentioned that you still see a question about religion on job applications as part of trying to combat job discrimination.
Which caused me to look one up and lo and behold…
http://www.eu.nampak.com/Application%20Form%20-%20Northern%20Ireland%20(2).pdf Scroll down to page 7 and look in the middle. Honestly I rest my case about how I've been speaking about religious identity in NI being correct, because welp. There you go. Primary source and all.
And if that's not enough, just copy paste that phrasing "Regardless of whether we practice religion, most of us in Northern Ireland are seen aseither Catholic or Protestant." into google and feel free to browse the tons of search results of Northern Irish application papers featuring it.I know you'll probably continue to think that I can't possibly know what goes on on this island, but whatever. I'm done. There is plenty you can probably rip in this post as well and find a wiki to disprove what I said, or expand on what I didn't explain. I was trying to be as brief as possible in my previous post so I didnt go into details. Nor should I have to. You're a person with internet articles.
Again, living somewhere (or near somewhere actually) doesn't immediately make everything you say about it factually correct.
If I claimed that 9-11 was actually done by UFO's I doubt you'd defer to my experience as someone near New York City.This is about Brexit, not the history of Northern Ireland, but since you're acting like you know everything about what life is like on this island… Fucking hell kid lol.
You know..even from your own argument here you aren't actually a local yourself. A neighbor sure. But expecting to be treated as lived experience authority doesn't even hold up.
For instance I can be pretty sure an actual citizen of Northern Ireland would not have half his argument crashed from a basic feature included by law on job applications in the country. -
@Monkey:
Well, see you in a month when you return to misread articles and extract conspiracy theories from them.
I am always here, I never left. The thing is, I have been banned from the "Random News" thread.
@Monkey:
…suddenly be agreeing that leaving the EU is good...
I have nothing to say about a country's and a population's choice. In our regions of the world, all we have to do is bear the consequences of westerners choices, we have no part to play.
@Monkey:
Also I look forward to the funny possibility that if Trump becomes president…
I really understand the fact that Trump is a very big problem for you. The thing is, Hillary for our countries is a very very very big problem and above that a 100% problem. And I look forward to remind you this when she will send your military or Nato's to one of these countries: Libya or Syria. And start something nasty with Iran. It is written. But "funny", is not the word, I'll choose for that.
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Now I wish I had been active when Flux was active here
or I wish that Flux was here right now
would be interesting -
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/britain-eu-odds-timing-divorce-talks-40125096
The EU is ready to go with the breakup but Johnson and Farage want to wait until the end of the year.
The standoff has begun
If you are gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk
RIP Eli Wallach
3DS Friend Code: 3454-0518-6166
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I agree. One of the reasons would be to scare other countries and prevent them from trying their way out of EU.
Uh, SmokerSan, I think Monkey King was being sarcastic about "some people" being responsible or the pound crash and GB having future economical problems with trying to redo all the trading deals they had with EU and non-EU nations when they were once a part of the EU. It's not like after the voting, somebody clicked a button and the pound crashed, it was more of millions of people all over the world who exchanged their pounds for gold as GB in their POV is no longer a country in which you can invest safely as you roughly know where the country will be going the next couple years. From what I read from the Brexit campaign leaders they don't even have made plans in the case they COULD win this referendum and now they are desperate for more time to get even a rough plan out which is what loneassassin's link shows us does happen after all.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/britain-eu-odds-timing-divorce-talks-40125096
The EU is ready to go with the breakup but Johnson and Farage want to wait until the end of the year.
The standoff has begun
Man, that's so stupid. EU already have made a group of experts on how to deal with GB leaving the EU and GB hasn't even STARTED a group at all. If you wanna leave EU but don't make plans for the aftermath then why even bother leaving in the first place? What a stupid chaos.
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@James:
Uh, SmokerSan, I think Monkey King was being sarcastic about "some people" being responsible or the pound crash and GB having future economical problems with trying to redo all the trading deals they had with EU and non-EU nations when they were once a part of the EU.
I am not talking about the pound going down or any specific matter. For instance, in France, except "le Front National", all the leaders are barely hiding the fact that they must make UK pay for their choice, even the French president said it. I don't know what is meant by that or how will they do it.
@James:
Man, that's so stupid. EU already have made a group of experts on how to deal with GB leaving the EU and GB hasn't even STARTED a group at all. If you wanna leave EU but don't make plans for the aftermath then why even bother leaving in the first place? What a stupid chaos.
I don't know if they can backtrack or not, but in recent years, 3 referendums' results have been completely ignored and denied in Europe. In 2005, the French's and Dutch's "No" didn't matter after all, few years later since they still have the constitution they rejected. And in 2015, Greek bailout referendum was also completely denied and ignored, 2 or 3 days later.
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The issue with us Brits sometimes is the pride to accept and say we were sorely wrong on a national scale.
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I don't know if they can backtrack or not, but in recent years, 3 referendums' results have been completely ignored and denied in Europe. In 2005, the French's and Dutch's "No" didn't matter after all, few years later since they still have the constitution they rejected. And in 2015, Greek bailout referendum was also completely denied and ignored, 2 or 3 days later.
There´s no EU constitution.
Technically, the Charter and the Treaty fill that spot, but those already existed beforehand.
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Many shadow cabinets have resigned and Hilary Benn said that "he had lost confidence in the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn".
His father was true labour supporter (Tony Benn) unlike this person.
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There´s no EU constitution.
Technically, the Charter and the Treaty fill that spot, but those already existed beforehand.
Yes, but the Lisbon treaty is different:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6901353.stm
Most European leaders acknowledge that the treaty preserves the main substance of the constitution.
The difference between the original Constitution and the present Lisbon Treaty is one of approach, rather than content.
In terms of content, the proposed institutional reforms – the only ones which mattered to the drafting Convention – are all to be found in the Treaty of Lisbon. They have merely been ordered differently and split up between previous treaties.
Giscard d'Estaing presided over the convention that drafted the rejected "Constitution" and how they did turn it to Lisbon Treaty.
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Yes, but the Lisbon treaty is different:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6901353.stm
Giscard d'Estaing presided over the convention that drafted the rejected "Constitution" and how they did turn it to Lisbon Treaty.
Yeah, that´s why I said it filled the spot.
Most European Constitutions are divided in two parts: One contains the fundamental rights/freedoms (and on some, also social and economical rights) and the other regarding the organs, their composition, function and limitations.
This treaty and the ones before always had these things.In France and the Netherlands defence, they didn´t ratified the Treaty for the constitution at the time because of the referemdums, and I think most people´s problem with it was that they associated constitutions with sovereign states, and they saw the constitution as an attempt to rush political integration. In the end, it was a matter of name.
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I have nothing to say about a country's and a population's choice.
This is not a way I think anyone would describe you jfyi.
I really understand the fact that Trump is a very big problem for you. The thing is, Hillary for our countries is a very very very big problem and above that a 100% problem.
There is not a single thing that you could worry about in Hillary that you shouldn't worry about MORE with Trump. If anyone has told you he is isolationist they are at best extremely naive and not really paying attention, and at worst lying to you.
And I look forward to remind you this when she will send your military or Nato's to one of these countries: Libya or Syria. And start something nasty with Iran. It is written. But "funny", is not the word, I'll choose for that.
As opposed to Trump whose use of the military will be nonexistent and reasonable lol.
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@Monkey:
This is not a way I think anyone would describe you jfyi.
I don't understand. I always respect democracy and people's choices, when did I say the opposite?
@Monkey:
There is not a single thing that you could worry about in Hillary that you shouldn't worry about MORE with Trump. If anyone has told you he is isolationist they are at best extremely naive and not really paying attention, and at worst lying to you.
As opposed to Trump whose use of the military will be nonexistent and reasonable lol.Lol or not. The fact that with Hillary it is written, there is no way for us to avoid it. As I told you many times, you are in the winning team, you can laugh out loud all the time, it is very different for people in my region of the world. We depend on your votes.
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I am not talking about the pound going down or any specific matter. For instance, in France, except "le Front National", all the leaders are barely hiding the fact that they must make UK pay for their choice, even the French president said it. I don't know what is meant by that or how will they do it.
Taking advantage of the situation and trying to make trade deals beneficial to the EU that are rough on the UK.
Britain enjoyed a super privileged position in the EU, being really sympathetic to them getting the book thrown at them after a stupid move is strange to me. Well I mean unless that sympathy is for the Brits who wanted nothing to do with this.I don't know if they can backtrack or not, but in recent years, 3 referendums' results have been completely ignored and denied in Europe. In 2005, theFrench's and Dutch's "No" didn't matter after all, few years later since they still have the constitution they rejected.
And once again you are describing things not as they are, let alone in the links you have provided.
Those nos were against a proposed EU constitution that was never ratified. Odd that you wouldn't instead have brought up the Spanish referendum in favor of it. But that doesn't fit the narrative I guess, the narrative that ignores that every EU country was going to be voting, and the idea was dropped after the French and Dutch rejections because they were seen as a sign that it wasn't popular. So actually its the complete opposite of what you said, and the French and Dutch referendums mattered a shit ton.And in 2015, Greek bailout referendumwas also completely denied and ignored, 2 or 3 days later.
No that is not what happened. Read the entire article please. Not just the headline.
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I don't understand. I always respect democracy and people's choices, when did I say the opposite?
All you do is talk about things you don't like or do like as done by this or that country? I'm not even saying anything is wrong with that in of itself, just that to act like you sit mum on other people's goings ons is uh…not true.
The fact that with Hillary it is written, there is no way for us to avoid it.
You don't really understand the American right wing voter base that Trump is riding at all do you. There is an inherent blood-thirst and militant jingoism to it, the sort whose first instinct is violent response. And ESPECIALLY as regards your region, Islamophobia is deeply baked into them. And they combine all that with a mega ignorance.
This isn't like the European skinheads-in-suits politicians that you seem bizarrely fond of, where they promise an inward turn on all accounts. The American version is fundamentally pro-war, and it really really hates the Middle East.As I told you many times, you are in the winning team, you can laugh out loud all the time, it is very different for people in my region of the world. We depend on your votes.
Do I look like I'm laughing to you? I don't know how many times I need to post that I'm genuinely terrified of right-wing populism to communicate how scary it is that Trump is running and what that will result in. It would be hell domestically, it would be hell internationally.
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Why are you reading my posts only as negative ones. We were discussing the possibility for UK to find a way out of this current situation. I mentioned that something similar has been done before because politicians can always find a way to distort and tweak things.
@Monkey:
Those nos were against a proposed EU constitution that was never ratified. Odd that you wouldn't instead have brought up the Spanish referendum in favor of it.
Once again we were talking about the possibility to find a way out of this "leave" situation. I am not saying anything against treaties or constitutions at all.
@Monkey:
and the idea was dropped after the French and Dutch rejections because they were seen as a sign that it wasn't popular. So actually its the complete opposite of what you said, and the French and Dutch referendums mattered a shit ton.
That's exactly what I said, a post later. Once again, I have nothing against or for EU treaties or constitution.
@Monkey:
No that is not what happened. Read the entire article please. Not just the headline.
Here is what is written at the bottom, I don't know why are so aggressive and full of yourself.
[h=2]Post-election reaction[/h]Three days following the no vote of the referendum, the Athens government "formally asked for a three-year bailout from the eurozone’s rescue fund [on 8 July 2015] and pledged to start implementing some economic-policy overhauls" beginning by mid-July 2015.
And again, I have nothing in this matter, I was only trying to understand and talk with people here, but you don't seem to get it. I also replied in the "Overwatch thread", can you please check if I said anything wrong?
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Trump is isolationist in the sense that "The United States won't do anything to help anybody", which doesn't remotely mean that the United States won't throw around bombs of all shapes and sizes. If anything, his bellicose nature makes that more likely.
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Once again we were talking about the possibility to find a way out of this "leave" situation. I am not saying anything against treaties or constitutions at all.
You're clearly expressing negative opinion toward people and things against EU stuff only. Added to clearly being against the idea of going against referendums.
Combine that, and we get you (erroneously) researching and bringing up France and Netherlands. But not Spain.That's exactly what I said, a post later. Once again, I have nothing against or for EU treaties or constitution.
So you made a correction?
Here is what is written at the bottom, I don't know why are so aggressive and full of yourself.
That's at the bottom of wikipedia. Not the bottom of the article I posted which details the circumstances of what happened after the referendum, what the Greek government's intentions were with the referendum, and what resulted.
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@Monkey:
That's at the bottom of wikipedia. Not the bottom of the article I posted which details the circumstances of what happened after the referendum, what the Greek government's intentions were with the referendum, and what resulted.
People voted against the bailout plan, they clearly said "No". The government went and ignored that "No" and did accept a bailout plan that was worse than what they had before. That's exactly what I am saying, politicians can tweak and distort their narrative, even if the people said "No". I asked a question, can they do it to UK? That's it.
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People voted against the bailout plan, they clearly said "No". The government went and ignored that
Ok so you didn't read the article I posted. Please read the article I posted from start to finish.
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@Monkey:
And once again you are describing things not as they are, let alone in the links you have provided.
Those nos were against a proposed EU constitution that was never ratified. Odd that you wouldn't instead have brought up the Spanish referendum in favor of it. But that doesn't fit the narrative I guess, the narrative that ignores that every EU country was going to be voting, and the idea was dropped after the French and Dutch rejections because they were seen as a sign that it wasn't popular. So actually its the complete opposite of what you said, and the French and Dutch referendums mattered a shit ton.In his defence, he does have a point have on something.
He brought that up to show the disrespect that the EU have towards these kind of things, and the fact is that the EU pretty much just dodged the referenduns by introducing loads of norms that were supposed to be on the said constitution in the Lisbon Treaty.With this being said, I doubt people were opposed to the norms in question, but opposed to the general idea of a constitution. So his example was kind of a stretch.
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@Monkey:
Ok so you didn't read the article I posted. Please read the article I posted from start to finish.
I have read it to the end. It says that Tsipras played poker with the referendum which was rejected by the Greek population, who they didn't know by the time they were voting that he was using them. So from a greek perspective who voted "No" for the bailout, what has happened? A majority of people voted for "No" but they still got the bailout. But this a detail. What Tsipras has done, is some shenanigans that can be made by all politicians all over the world and what I said about the situation in UK is just this, there was ne judgment from my part. I am making the assumption, since some people seem to regret the result, and since even the Farage admitted they almost lied, they can find a way out of this situation through shenanigans, as they always do.
With this being said, I doubt people were opposed to the norms in question, but opposed to the general idea of a constitution. So his example was kind of a stretch.
Yes, people were against the constitution, they got a treaty instead which is by the admission and the confession of the ones who drafted it and many EU politicians that is almost the same. Hell even Ireland did the thing twice for the Lisbon treaty to make it pass. Which is what I am saying, politicians can make you vote for a thing and its opposite, I am not judging the treaties.
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I have read it to the end. It says that Tsipras played poker with the referendum which was rejected by the Greek population, who they didn't know by the time they were voting that he was using them.
No, it doesn't. It seems almost impossible for you to process anything from a non-conspiratorial angle.
So from a greek perspective who voted "No" for the bailout, what has happened? A majority of people voted for "No" but they still got the bailout.
The rejection wasn't for bailouts…
It was for the terms of that first offered bailout. If you don't understand that then its pretty much impossible that you understood anything else that was going on in the article. -
@Monkey:
No, it doesn't. It seems almost impossible for you to process anything from a non-conspiratorial angle.
Again? I am done talking to you. You don't seem to show the smallest respect. I am not willing to continue discussing with someone insulting me every post.
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For those of you who said that racism and xenophobia had no part in the votes
And also LOL Boris Johnson, who is now saying in a piece in the Telegraph that maybe a 52% vote shouldn't be enough for England to leave the EU
If you are gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk
RIP Eli Wallach
3DS Friend Code: 3454-0518-6166
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Boris keeps insisting they've got all the time in the world, but the EU leaders said today that there will be no negotiations with the UK until Article 50 is properly set in motion. Until then the doors are closed.
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Again? I am done talking to you. You don't seem to show the smallest respect. I am not willing to continue discussing with someone insulting me every post.
Is it physically impossible to talk about Tspiras attempting to bluff the EU monetary people without somehow attributing Snively Whiplash malice to him for absolutely no reason?
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It's almost like certain people made a bunch of promises with the assumption that the vote would either fail or the EU would give them tons of goodies to keep the UK in and, when the vote actually passed and the EU has zero interest in bribing them to stay, don't actually have the slightest idea how to do what they promised.
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Question is; when will the UK initate Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty? Cameron would rather have his successor deal with it (election sometime around this October).
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This was So Monstrously Stupid.
From a Financial Times Reader, H/T Vox.And the kicker?
voting details are showing that it's the areas of the country with the lowest levels of immigration that were most likely to vote leave.
"victory came for leave despite the fact that those who experienced highest levels of migration were least worried about it."sigh Its the goddamn same everywhere in the world. The bastions for anti-immigration right wing parties in Denmark are also the areas with the highest percentages of ethnic danes, and the lowest amount of immigrants. Its just irrational, populism-induced racially-tinged fear plain and simple. THE IMMIGRANTS ARE INVADING AND WILL FORCIBLY OUTLAW OUR CULTURE, I'M SURE OF IT. Its so fucking frustrating.
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And also LOL Boris Johnson, who is now saying in a piece in the Telegraph that maybe a 52% vote shouldn't be enough for England to leave the EU
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe–and-alw/Seems obvious to me he knew brexit was a terrible idea, but never expected it to go through so supported it anyway to get the iron throne.
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@Daz:
sigh Its the goddamn same everywhere in the world. The bastions for anti-immigration right wing parties in Denmark are also the areas with the highest percentages of ethnic danes, and the lowest amount of immigrants. Its just irrational, populism-induced racially-tinged fear plain and simple. THE IMMIGRANTS ARE INVADING AND WILL FORCIBLY OUTLAW OUR CULTURE, I'M SURE OF IT. Its so fucking frustrating.
" Theyll Establish religious Law. Have Lots of kids but no jobs. Bleed you dry from taxes and then change your culture by producing more kids than you with an alien culture. Wont assimilate at all and disregard most western progressive values. The cities will become a killing ground for the original inhabitants and the government will cover up 1000's of crimes for fear of beimg labeled racist as their country burns in flames. "
Right, thats how it's being described. As the worst possible scenario. Like if every muslim immigrant came straight from a terrorist group and that every man will get killed and every woman attacked.it's such bullshit
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@Daz:
sigh Its the goddamn same everywhere in the world. The bastions for anti-immigration right wing parties in Denmark are also the areas with the highest percentages of ethnic danes, and the lowest amount of immigrants. Its just irrational, populism-induced racially-tinged fear plain and simple. THE IMMIGRANTS ARE INVADING AND WILL FORCIBLY OUTLAW OUR CULTURE, I'M SURE OF IT. Its so fucking frustrating.
It's extra stupid coming from a country easily in the top five of global culture powers though, like the UK.
Shakespeare is so famous he gets performed and made into adaptations in India, but if Indians come here Shakespeare will vanish!…somehow! -
The amount of reported hatecrimes has increased by 57% since Thursday.
Racists and xenophobes have been given a mandate to be openly racists and xenophobes.
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This post is deleted!
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Racists and xenophobes have been given a mandate to be openly racists and xenophobes.
How the fuck is there so much hatred for Poles of all people in the UK. I was checking that whole link of facebook posts about incidents and stuff, and like 40% of the incidents were about Poles. It just seems so goddamn random.
How do average British people even know if someone is Polish on the street. -
Now the English football team lost
Worst week in England in decades
If you are gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk
RIP Eli Wallach
3DS Friend Code: 3454-0518-6166
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@Monkey:
How the fuck is there so much hatred for Poles of all people in the UK. I was checking that whole link of facebook posts about incidents and stuff, and like 40% of the incidents were about Poles. It just seems so goddamn random.
How do average British people even know if someone is Polish on the street.Poles are this generation's cheap labour immigrant group. Easy demo to target when raising xenophobic feelings, because it allows the poor (edit: blue collar workers is the term I need to use, thanks wolfwood) who usually vote labour to jump to UKIP type parties. THEYRE STEALING OUR JOBS, that kind of stuff.
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@Monkey:
How the fuck is there so much hatred for Poles of all people in the UK. I was checking that whole link of facebook posts about incidents and stuff, and like 40% of the incidents were about Poles. It just seems so goddamn random.
How do average British people even know if someone is Polish on the street.The working class is, as it seems, the most upset about Poles "stealing" their blue collar jobs.
Not that i imagine that it's all that specific. If you got an accent you're probably close enough
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@Monkey:
How the fuck is there so much hatred for Poles of all people in the UK. I was checking that whole link of facebook posts about incidents and stuff, and like 40% of the incidents were about Poles. It just seems so goddamn random.
How do average British people even know if someone is Polish on the street.may be due to the fact some Poles use Polish language on the street or the funky accent or the famous (supposed) Slavic features or the just simply statistics as Poles are a large group among new immigrants in Great Britain.
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Now the English football team lost
Worst week in England in decades
Guess England doesn't mind free movement of people in their region as long as they're from Iceland.
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UK is arguably the number one most influential culture in the world, given they had the biggest and most technologically advanced empire in the planet. We still live in its footsteps and we still speak its language today, read their authros, analyze its scientists. It's just that USA is the new-wave europeans, superior to the original europeans. Also, for some reason the UK has the best bands/musicians too, no idea why. the Uk and the us are a heavily imitated culture. I'd argue that USA is BY FAR the most imitated culture on the planet, even the Uk imitate american culture.
What's funny and stupid to me is the amount of people who voted on this had no clue and based on research from polls and random interviews it seems that: Voters didn't know what brexiti or the full implications of leaving the EU was, and didn't know the referendum was real and did joke votes. It's like voting for that dumb kid in school for some stupid class representative and then realizing he actaully won it and it isnt so funny anymore.
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UK is arguably the number one most influential culture in the world
No you can't beat the US on that if we're talking modern culture anyway, but yeah the Brits and French do indeed have a more major influence sort of lying below the modern layer, so from a more historical angle I could see your point. But modern is what matters given the discussion of immigrants apparently changing British culture.
It's just that USA is the new-wave europeans, superior to the original europeans.
American culture is hugely influenced by black american culture, so there's no way you can sum it up as just "new wave european".
Also, for some reason the UK has the best bands/musicians too, no idea why.
Only in rock, and only between the years of like…1965-1985. Granted that covers some of the best rock ever made including my own personal favorite period! 1977-1983 forever.
But the British REALLY suck at dance music though, and they've been shabby as crap since the 90's started on rock even aside from a couple bands like Radiohead.I'd argue that USA is BY FAR the most imitated culture on the planet, even the Uk imitate american culture.
Yeah, I feel like modern popular casual culture is the point I was trying to make. And that even if the US is the frontrunner in this, the Brits are still one of the main ones. Its another reason I also laugh at Japanese talk about immigrants changing their culture so much, because jesus they dominate East Asian pop culture so bad it hurts.
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@Monkey:
But the British REALLY suck at dance music though
How can you say that about about some MONSTROUSLY pretentious Brits tapping the late great Tammy Wynette for a dull club song with a bad beat and hilariously bad rapping???? Also Zulus.
