All you are doing with this post and actually thinking this making a noise on how you are fucking dumpster trash.
Pretty much, its a bunch of sexist horsehshit and again there is not this much smoke without a fire its been an open secret for years.
All you are doing with this post and actually thinking this making a noise on how you are fucking dumpster trash.
Pretty much, its a bunch of sexist horsehshit and again there is not this much smoke without a fire its been an open secret for years.
Man. It’s so weird how in the age of trump it’s become perfectly normal to get caught up in conspiracy-land. As if all these coworkers are banding together to distroy a man’s career when he’s done nothing wrong. Believe the numbers, man. Where are the coworkers coming to his defense? Are there any? Sounds to me like everyone knew and they were all tolerating it until now because he’s one of the biggest actors they have.
do you think all these women banded together to create a bunch of lies to ruin his career?
it’s become perfectly normal to get caught up in conspiracy-land. As if all these coworkers are banding together to distroy a man’s career when he’s done nothing wrong. Believe the numbers, man.
I don't intend on arguing the point here because i made an effort to supply links and evidence of what I said as it was written. I will, however reiterate, INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY
And no accusations of being "fucking dumpster trash." or all the Ad Populum in the world is going to get me to change on this fundamental principle of American Law.
A conspiracy? We already had proof of one. That facebook group chat where they were trying to Photoshop Vic's hands onto that girl's breasts. I've made a point to have links to everything that I've said. All of which prove Vic is just a dude who wears his heart on his sleve, What do people Gain? Money? Attention? Firing a guy or group of people you don't like, joining in on something trendy
that something you initially said was alright and innocent - wasn't. Or you can just be an unhinged sociopath. It's not all that hard when you're in a Moral Panic. Of course when you bandwagon on it, you gain Progressive currency points. Your company can be held to "moral" light knowing that you fired that guy with no evidence.So before you ask what people "have to gain by coming forward" why not ask WHAT THE EVIDENCE IS. Because now, you're assuming. You're assuming the complete innocence of the accusers by making a statement that it's absolutely unimaginable that people may have malicious ulterior motives. You have framed the question as an attack on the accuser, Scrutiny is not an attack, and people only do this to make people demanding solid evidence feel bad, as if they're attacking "victims" and "survivors" It is very much a psychological head game. But i digress. They lobbied serious life-ruining accusations at Vic, they had better damn sure be able to back it up.
I will leave you with this:
An earlier comment says
People assuming he didn’t do this stuff are believing him instead of multiple women. If you’re working on a lack of evidence, you tend to assume multiple sources over a single source. That’s just how logic works. Ideally, you want it proven with hard evidence, but evidence is near impossible to come by in these situations because someone doing something wrong isn’t going to do it in front of a camera… So what do you do? Let them get away with it, or assume that the dozens of stories are true? It’s a private business, not the court of law.
This isn't logic. It's non-logic. it ignores the Socratic method and that's what modern western civilization is founded on. It ignores the premise of innocence until guilt can be found, it ignores the law. Its a fallacy - even has a name. Ad populum - [By the way, i should note more people are on Vic's side so I can use this exact argument against you guys, but I'm not interested in arguing bigger numbers, I'm interested in arguing an actual case. They wanted to make it public, we'll we debate in public.]
You realize, this is the stuff witch hunts are made of, right? The things that we were warned about in Books like To Kill a Mockingbird. The things used by By Nazis to justify murdering Jews. The things used by the racist south to hang those who started at white women. The things used to tear down people innocent and guilty. There is a strong reason that we have defamation laws. Why would they forego any official proceedings and let them call upon the easily ignited twitter mob? You know why, because they wouldn't stand a chance in an actual court. Because they do not have a solid case. This is not justice for anybody. If you actually have a case ARGUE IT in a court of law
This is not a Banana republic. This is not Medieval Europe. This is not a plutocratic, autocratic, feudal, or any other form of authoritarian dictatorship. This is a republic founded on a principle of assumed innocence until proof of guilt is found - specifically to avoid situations such as this. None of that proof has been found, none of that proof CAN be found, but Vic's life can still be ruined anyway? That isn't justice. - It's the opposite. And I believe on some level, many of you know this.
Oh and before I go: tell your acolytes that that little outburst up above, by Jamie? Not helping your case at alllllllllll
Man. It’s so weird how in the age of trump it’s become perfectly normal to get caught up in conspiracy-land. As if all these coworkers are banding together to distroy a man’s career when he’s done nothing wrong. Believe the numbers, man. Where are the coworkers coming to his defense? Are there any? Sounds to me like everyone knew and they were all tolerating it until now because he’s one of the biggest actors they have.
Pretty much.
Also the video linked have anime gate which is an alt-right campaign which basically says everything about the poster.
I notice you people don't attack the arguments. you attack me. You call me "alt-right." You call me "sexist." You call me "dumpster-trash." I'm sorry, but is this kind of vitriolic response to a call for evidence REALLY necessary? Is this even allowed on this forum, last I checked that's harassment by this forum's rules. Is this tolerant? All I'm asking for is Evidence before we ruin somebody's life. I'm not attacking you. I'm not calling you any names, I'm not even assuming your politics, i don't care what they are. But, because you can't supply it, you do this.
I'm respectfully laying out my thoughts to you, I'd hope to get some form of respectable response. Those aren't arguments, those are deflections, and one of them (Alt-right) is an accusation of being a white nationalist. Is that really what you are? So utterly devoid of substance that an issue that has left, right, and center together that you have to tear down everyone who respectfully disagrees with you. That's a shame.
All I'm going to say to entertain your bad faith argument is that Funimation went through the process with their own internal legal investigation and have gathered their evidence.
They do not need to share it with the public. Take it or leave.
All you are doing with this post and actually thinking this making a noise on how you are fucking dumpster trash.
Calling people names is so immature and in no way offers any defense against your side. Grow the fuck up.
Also, where do you guys get off calling anyone sexist for not siding with every single woman ever who accuses a man of sexual harassment? If anything is a testimony of the age we live it, it's that, and the snowflakes of the current generation. That's like saying a person is racist for not siding with every single person of another race in every single case brought forward.
Ignoring multiple woman have accused him of this
Ignoring men have accused him of this and vouge for the woman
Multiple voice actors have come out against Vic and some have told stories
Con runners have told stories about this including how several cons blocked him in the early 2000's
Internal investigation found enough to fire
Stop defending this man.
Ohh and since you brought up false rape cases yes those are bad and need to stop but guess what, the number of times that those are fake are small potatoes comapired to the number of real reported rape cases and not even considering the large amount of unreported rape cases.
All I'm going to say to entertain your bad faith argument
Hold up! Where is my argument on bad faith? Was it The part where I called somebody alt-right and dismissed their evidence as alt-right propaganda. And then said they just hate women so they must be wrong? Oh wait - that wasn't me. So, that can't be it.
Was it the part where I called it all a "conspiracy" despite the fact that I had no evidence to it's truthfulness and then invoked the mob? - wait that wasn't me either. that was 2 other users.
The part where I said that if you're going to lob an accusation you need to prove it? That's what the burden of Proof is, Despite receiving none of that for Vic, I did supply my own. Oh yeah that's me alright….......But umm where's the bad faith?
So far in this discussion, I've made one reference to somebody's politics - Jamie Marchi, and gave a possible explanation as to why she would bandwagon in an expanded comment. So far, though, nothing I've said is in bad faith - in fact it has been ME on the receiving end of said bad faith.. And so Before this even continues forward, That record needs correcting. My argument is asking for evidence. Plain and simple.
Funimation went through the process with their own internal legal investigation and have gathered their evidence.
They do not need to share it with the public.
This is a VERY public case. It had to be, since it needed to invoke the social media Mob to work. That's where we are now. A Mob. Two mobs actually, both flailing hashtags around like that's going to actually change anything. Isn't it then odd that Funimation supposedly does their own investigation and fires him with nary a public peep about the specifics? remember, this is a very public situation. If Vic were actually guilty, they'd have said it after all a select few Funimation representatives have already lobbed allegations into the ring too. I'm only left to assume that they have testimonials, but have otherwise found no evidence of such wrong-doing OR that's all PR to at least look impartial as they let Vic go for other reasons, and spoke about a small investigation.
If my deduction about this is correct, that says to me that Vic has been ruined, with zero due process. And because these allegations remain public - with no proof of their validity, nobody will want to work with him again. These things come with black-lists. Which answers
Where are the coworkers coming to his defense? Are there any?
With this much vocal public outcry (and remember the actual numbers here don't matter, If people are loud enough you can make your position look larger than it is) Who would defend him? They'd lose their Jobs if they did. They're in just as shitty a spot as he is. If you defend the witch, you too are a witch… Just look at what happened to me here on the MICRO level arguing my point - which is why i won't let that go. I was accused of being a fucking white nationalist who hates women - for the mere act of ASKING FOR THE EVIDENCE. I'm a nobody, if a bunch of very public figures did that they would be committing career suicide.
That is fucked up. That's also why I, and the actual law never convict on allegation NUMBERS but on allegation substance. We have scientific data that proves what can happen. You can either stay silent, OR you
So yeah, I will boycott Funimation. I'm old enough to remember a time before anime streaming was everywhere. The fans did it before and we'll do it again. If anybody is with me on this, I suggest sending Kind emails to the Japanese publishers requesting they do official English subtitled distribution, and possibly dubs. And when all of these allegations get challenged in a court of Law, I hope to see some major libel suits won. or, Vic can go on with his life and try and find a way. Either way, I do pray he lawyers up. Oh and if you're a fellow VA reading this and you think, or know vic is innocent, come forward. That study loses effectiveness when just ONE person says what they think.And As I said, i will no longer support an Organization that does this.
Ignoring multiple woman have accused him of this
Ignoring men have accused him of this and vouge for the woman
Multiple voice actors have come out against Vic and some have told stories
Con runners have told stories about this including how several cons blocked him in the early 2000's
Internal investigation found enough to fire[But not enough to take to a court of law]
Accusation, accusation, story, story, Ad Populum fallacy. Zero due process. Zero evidence. I keep supplying evidence of the psychology of moral panics. As well as how many of these stories have been deconstructed. You didn't read those, you just called the source (and me) alt-right and ignored it. That's not going to work on me. You need a solid piece of evidence. Not stories.
So I will keep repeating it
Where's the evidence?
Ignoring multiple woman have accused him of this
Ignoring men have accused him of this and vouge for the woman
Multiple voice actors have come out against Vic and some have told stories
Con runners have told stories about this including how several cons blocked him in the early 2000's
Internal investigation found enough to fireStop defending this man.
Ohh and since you brought up false rape cases yes those are bad and need to stop but guess what, the number of times that those are fake are small potatoes comapired to the number of real reported rape cases and not even considering the large amount of unreported rape cases.
Your points really mean nothing. There is also a thing in society about people banding together and sticking up for their friends because of just that, they are friends and nothing more. Makes no difference if there are lies or exaggeration going on. They will just go along with whatever their friends are saying. It does happen, and it's not entirely wrong in my eyes, but is something I always consider when the argument is made that, "IT MUST BE TRUE BECAUSE THIS GUY AND THIS GUY SAID IT IS." And again, the argument that numbers means automatically guilty means nothing because there is no charge that meets the "guilty without a doubt" requirement that holds up in the court of law. It's public slander based on things that may or may have not happened, and you guys are banding together and attacking anyone who dares to think outside the box on the matter, or not just accept everything at face value. Who cares if such cases are "small potatoes", it still means they do happen, it still means you should not blindly listen to every single case brought forward and assume that they are true.
Let’s bring this back on topic. If Nami and Robin accuse Sanji of sexual harrassment, and you know from Sanji’s reputation around the boat that he’s a bit of a perv (and of course that Nani and Robin don’t typically lie), then is it okay to kick him off the ship? Or do you ignore Nami and Robin and tell them to photograph him next time?
:D
You know this does remind me why I found Snaji and Pudding so refreshing.
That for the most part Sanji was a calm gentlemen with Pudding especially after the wedding stuff, a cool suave and non horndog Sanji that was genuine with Pudding which is a rare sight to see considering its Sanji.
I've worked at dozens of conventions, know people in the industry, have actually met Vic Mignogna, and personally know women that have been harassed by him.
Dude's a creeper, and the stories coming out don't surprise me at all. This has been known for a very, very long time, and ignored because he was popular. I'm surprised it's taken this long to come out.
Argument over, now everyone drop it.
If you want to continue discussing the ramifications of his firing, that's fine. But stop trying to defend him, you'll just sound like when I tried to defend Bill Cosby a couple years back, because I just couldn't believe it at the time.
General rule. When one woman comes forward, give the benefit of the doubt, it might just be crazy person going after a celebrity. When five or ten or dozens comes forward? And co-workers? Believe the victims.
Generally speaking, I’m all for evidence and innocence until proven guilty—especially when we’re talking court of law (which this is not, by the way) I’m just not as willing to dismiss all of the testimonies from his coworkers. I don’t believe, as it’s so easy for you to, that so many people would share all similar horror stories—especially the coworkers. Strangers that come out of the woodwork I have a harder time believing, too.
Scroll a few pages back. When it was just kissing on cheek allegations (which is prevalent in so many cultures), I thought people were overreacting. It’s the stories from reputable people that gave me pause.
I've actually met Vic Mignogna, and personally know women that have been harassed by him.
Dude's a creeper, and the stories coming out don't surprise me at all. This has been known for a very, very long time, and ignored because he was popular.
Argument over, now everyone drop it.
Yeah, no, this argument does nothing and is just another person with a biased opinion of him.
RJ, what evidence are you looking for and how are people able to attain it? When he pulls your hair in the elevator, how are you supposed to prove it happened? Maybe Funimation needs cameras in every room and elevator to catch this shit happening from now on.
Calling people names is so immature and in no way offers any defense against your side. Grow the fuck up.
Also, where do you guys get off calling anyone sexist for not siding with every single woman ever who accuses a man of sexual harassment? If anything is a testimony of the age we live it, it's that, and the snowflakes of the current generation. That's like saying a person is racist for not siding with every single person of another race in every single case brought forward.
One of the things I like to avoid when doing these kinds of arguments is abuse of repetitive, and empty rhetoric. It's mistake to do, for one reason, you give them ammo, to call you any number of things to dismiss your argument. In truth what you have done there is just as helpful as calling me "are fucking dumpster trash" - not helpful at all. I word my arguments differently and cross examine them with my own mental library of information. THIS WAY when they lash out at me, any spectator not steeped in biases sees one side arguing for something as simple as evidence, as well as supplying his own (such as the many many many liars and inconsistencies in these stories) and the other side….. well, doing that - lashing out and name calling.
The only repetition I allow in said argument is a bland, simple statement of principles that cannot be misconstrued into any other way. You call them a snowflake, They can call ME or you a snowflake for not being able to "handle criticism" (even though it isn't criticism but it happens all the time in these debates that get political so...) What CANNOT be turned against me however is my fundamental point. Innocent until proven guilty. Literally meaning, in no simple words
A person is innocent until it is demonstrably proven with evidence that they are guilty.
Vic is therefore that person. If I reduce my argument to name-calling and political shaming (Ad homonem) then that opens the door for them to do the same to me within reason. Your argument becomes reducible to partisan noise in the wind. If i keep my argument clean, respectful, and consistent, then there is no arguing against that. There is no ammo to use against you. Now You and I on the other hand? We've been given Ammo. They want a witch hunt - a Kangaroo Court. They want to convict in the court of public opinion. I (and I assume you) Want a person to be proven guilty before being persecuted.
This fundamentally isn't an argument for or against Vic - It's important to remember this, it's actually an argument about Due process and Law. It goes a bit deeper than that, however. The principles that founded the law of the US, The literal WORD of GOD, the LAND or whoever you want to attribute the LOGOS that is our constitution - fundamentally then, this is an argument about enlightenment values versus non-enlightenment values.. Vic is just a lynch-pin at the center of this controversy in our 2010s Culture wars. It started before here. A culture war being fought with hard-core psychology and all bad actors everywhere etc. THIS explains The politically charged nature of the arguents being slung. It is important however that you try your best to avoid this. Keep it on principle, not on politics. While I'm not saying "Snowflake" is politics, it has become verbal shorthand used by people I like and dont like that I would consider hyper-partisan.
Man. It’s so weird how in the age of trump
Win or lose the battle it's a war of ideas that you want to win. And to win those, you have to simply have the stronger ideas.
I read a lot of philosophy to arrive here. Just Food for thought.
Yeah, no, this argument does nothing and is just another person with a biased opinion of him.
Dude, it's not opinion. I actually know people that have been harassed, and I've seen how he talks and acts with my own eyes and ears.
He does these things. All the time. For years.
Let’s bring this back on topic. If Nami and Robin accuse Sanji of sexual harrassment, and you know from Sanji’s reputation around the boat that he’s a bit of a perv (and of course that Nani and Robin don’t typically lie), then is it okay to kick him off the ship? Or do you ignore Nami and Robin and tell them to photograph him next time?
:D
But have we discussed the important issue at stake here? Is Sanji kicked off the boat, or do we ignore Nami and Robin's accusations?
@RJ:
In truth what you have done there is just as helpful as calling me "are fucking dumpster trash" - not helpful at all.
Yes I see the hypocrisy in my own response caused by emotion. I'm willing to bite the bullet on that one. Though it is still obvious that people cannot seem to handle anyone with a minority opinion and that is the point of my response.
Dude, it's not opinion. I actually know people that have been harassed, and I've seen how he talks and acts with my own eyes and ears.
He does these things. All the time. For years.
I don't know you personally obviously. Look, if I did know you personally and sat down with you to hear you out, it may be easier to understand your points. The problem is that, like many of the cases being brought up here, I'm just expected to believe everything is true 100% without any emotional biases tainting the source. And that is very hard to believe. In other words, you have an idea of him in your head based on what you've heard and seen, but that doesn't automatically mean all accounts brought forth are true.
Look, Vic could, in fact, be a complete asshole. I don't know the man. I don't go to cons either so I can't vouch on any experiences I've had. He could also have said and done things that seem sketchy, okay fine. I've worked with a lot of men with mouths like that. But just because someone talks that way doesn't automatically make these allegations true in my eyes. As long as people are being influenced by their emotions, stories will continue to be exaggerated. A simple off-hand sexist comment or touch on the arm, for example, can very easily be exaggerated by the woman (or man) telling the story in order to make the person look worse. And, god forbid, people falsely accusing of rape and such which is a huge leap from inappropriate touching.
But have we discussed the important issue at stake here? Is Sanji kicked off the boat, or do we ignore Nami and Robin's accusations?
They really should talk about it or at least Oda should address that side of Sanji more and make it go away, it was especially bad in Punk Hazard with the body switches which ohh man is Punk Hazard bad at that.
You know this does remind me why I found Pudding so refreshing.
That for the most part Sanji was a calm gentlemen with Pudding especially after the wedding stuff, a cool suave and non horndog Sanji that was genuine with Pudding which is a rare sight to see considering its Sanji.
It's Funimation's right to not have Mignogna in their recording booth again. Whether he's guilty in a court of law or not, no studio is obligated to ask him or any other actor back.
It's like Robby said, there's no good in crusading over this. You can personally be as happy or as frustrated as you want about this situation. But attacking each other and attacking those directly involved is not going to help, and it won't be tolerated from either side.
I still do stand by that much, as said before, that the death threats on both sides need to stop. If anything, I do think Monica Rial is right to have lawyers involved because of that.
Man, this community has never been particularly civil, but this is new heights. Extremism in politics (on both sides) reaches every community–even anime.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
I should say, too, that everyone wants proof. The question is what to do when proof isn't attainable. Funimation isn't a court of law. If their employees come to them with complaints, they should listen to those complaints and act as they see fit. If the environment has become too toxic for him to work in and many of his coworkers hate him (and some of them accuse him of abuse or harassment), it's probably for the best they don't call him back, regardless of the truth of the allegations.
General rule. When one woman comes forward, give the benefit of the doubt, it might just be crazy person going after a celebrity. When five or ten or dozens comes forward? And co-workers? Believe the victims.
Umm… No? A story doesn't get MORE proven when MORE people say something, a story gets MORE proven when the consistency of the stories align. and/or other evidence is presented
I could just as quickly say he touched me. Great a whole new story BELIEVE ME I'M A VICTIM
cept I've never touched him before. But now I've added to the numbers of people accusing him - even though I admitted I just lied [Or various stories got scrutinized and debunked] Does that make it more true or not? If more people have "stories" those stories and general M.O should be consistent, shouldn't they? Then how come when we look at these stories in depth they fall apart? They completely collapse under further scrutiny. And as NICE as it would be to say "BELIEVE THE VICTIMS"
You've made several assumptions.
1: that they're actually Victims.
2: That somehow adding a few potential LIARS to a story somehow makes the story more valid.
Argument over, now everyone drop it.
The only argument is a demand for actual evidence or proof. So far NONE. Just stories. That's now enough to condemn a person
especially when we’re talking court of law (which this is not, by the way)
In the Beginning there was the Word [LOGOS] and it was with God.
I spoke earlier about the civics and philosophy of the founding principles. There is Platonic and Socratic philosophy behind this nation (The founders read Greek and Latin) The LOGOS that binds this land. The law of the land is more than a government law. It is an appeal to a higher power - God, YWHW, The Land itself, Natural Law [written with Caps], The Matrix, Akashic Records, ALLAH, Truth, The Buddhist Ideal whatever. It is the WORD it is held to similar importance.
It also applies to the court of public opinion. - This is why our government is beholden to the constitution, and it's so damn hard to ratify or amend it. What these people are accusing Vic of is a CRIMINAL OFFENSE with massive career, and life ending repercussions. So you know what? We will Treat this just like any other case in the court of law. You don't get to scream foul on somebody and then get away with it because technically you're not in a courtroom. That's the same absurd shit that started witch-hunts. It goes against our principles as a nation. A proxy court is still a court. Much like Citizen's arrest is still an arrest The court has a Jury of peers for this very reason. The government is run by your PEERS for a reason - The LOGOS that binds our government also applies to all of us then. We didn't even have a centralized police, fire-department or military for the longest time because of this peer principle. You can end the argument here, I will as well. I have other work to do.
Innocent until proven guilty.
Yeah, no, this argument does nothing and is just another person with a biased opinion of him.
How is it biased when Robby actually knows both the guy and some of his victims? Seems to me like he has a lot more personal evidence to base his opinions on then most people on this forum, including you.
I agree that it's easy these days to create a mob mentality online, but come on, what kind of evidence are you looking for? It's pretty hard or downright impossible to create physical evidence of having been sexually abused so it's a little ridiculous of RJ Returns to ask where the evidence is. What are the victims of sexual abuse supposed to do if they weren't lucky enough to be filmed or photographed at the right moment? Are they just supposed to shut up and keep quiet since they can't physically prove their allegations? Seems a little fucked up and is pretty much the reason why most of these victims don't dare to speak out or file allegations. Also, you know, witnesses count as evidence, too. There would be no point in interviewing witnesses in court otherwise, right? So why ignore all these people, co-workers etc. speaking out against Vic? Is it so much more reasonable to believe in some big conspiracy where everybody ad their mother is out for this guys blood? Ever heard of Occam's razor? Because that is definitely not the logical conclusion, as much as you might want to frame it so.
Also, all of this said, as I far as I know, Vic Mignogna is not being tried for any of this right now, correct? So any big speeches about the foundations of our justice system and "innocent until proven guilty" don't really apply at all. Funimation is a company and this guy worked for them. If ten employees speak out against their one co-worker and state he sexually abused them, plus there are a dozen more people claiming he sexually abused them too at a convention where the guy represented the company he works for, it's really more than reasonable for the company to side against the one single employee who is being accused of all this crap. There is nothing cowardly or premature about that decision.
I already said my piece about Robby's comment in my reply to him.
I'm not discrediting Robby, but I'm also not willing to believe his accounts are argument-ending "evidence" because there is an emotional bias and perception he has toward the man clearly, and I'm also not willing to believe his friends are all 100% truthful. That is a lot to expect for me to just believe everyone because "they said so."
I already said my piece about Robby's comment in my reply to him.
I'm not discrediting Robby, but I'm also not willing to believe his accounts are argument-ending "evidence" because there is an emotional bias and perception he has toward the man clearly, and I'm also not willing to believe his friends are all 100% truthful. That is a lot to expect for me to just believe everyone because "they said so."
I get this. What I don't get is how the sheer number of "she said so"s don't add up to make them a little more credible in your mind. When it's one or two allegations, I totally agree about maybe not assuming they're totally valid and true. But when it's dozens and some of those are from coworkers and people close to him… I just don't get how you can discount those so easily.
--
Despite the disagreement here, credit to you for being mostly civil and way more credible than this other bozo.
RJ, it seems to me that your feelings are getting in the way of your ability to be civil. I'm gonna have you sit out for a few days and see if you can calm yourself.
RJ, it seems to me that your feelings are getting in the way of your ability to be civil. I'm gonna have you sit out for a few days and see if you can calm yourself.
Good decision. He was getting out of hand. I wouldn't ban ChopperRules, though.
Guy being let go for repeated cases inappropriate behaviour.
Seems like a weird choice for a hill to die on
Guy being let go for repeated cases inappropriate behaviour.
Seems like a weird choice for a hill to die on
Right? It seems like a cut and dry case to me. If he was being let go for cheek kissing at conventions, then we'd have a worthy debate about the right course of action.
"Innocent until proven guilty" has reached the same level of dishonest bullshit argument as pulling a Godwin.
I get this. What I don't get is how the sheer number of "she said so"s don't add up to make them a little more credible in your mind. When it's one or two allegations, I totally agree about maybe not assuming they're totally valid and true. But when it's dozens and some of those are from coworkers and people close to him… I just don't get how you can discount those so easily.
--
Despite the disagreement here, credit to you for being mostly civil and way more credible than this other bozo.
It's not so much as me wanting to discount the cases, but me just having a hard time understanding how people are so quick to believe everything they hear. I just…lack trust, I guess. Maybe that says a lot about the kind of life I've led and people can make counterarguments there as well against me I suppose. Maybe part of the problem is just hearing stuff over the internet, which takes away a lot of the emotional aspect to it. If I met these woman, including Monica Rial, in real life maybe it would be easier to believe them.
Even so, I understand nothing I say is going to change what has happened or the court of public opinion here. I get it. I really wanted to let it drop today but it seems I keep getting back into it on impulse.
I would not really mind a few days ban to be honest. At least I would have some distance to cool off hopefully. I leave that to the mod's discretion though.
I don't feel like writing another long essay, and if I tried to argue back against all the heaps and heaps of defenses against Vic in here, it would probably take multiple thousands of words when this has already spiraled so much. So I'll just say this:
To reiterate: if we went by "innocent until proven guilty" to fire someone, then very, very few of these sexual predators and harassers would ever actually be fired, because again, there usually is not that kind of proof. Because these guys are too smart to let there be actual DNA evidence (and apparently photographic evidence would not be enough because the victims would just be accused of "photoshopping it" or some junk like that). If we waited until proven guilty, these guys would continue to get away with it and hurt countless more victims until maybe, finally, someone manages to get something that could actually stick. But then, again, defenders would just claim "It could be faked! They could be lying! That's not enough proof!"
FUNI absolutely made the right decision to let him go. If they had immediately done so at the absolute first accusation, without conducting an investigation of any kind? Yes, that would be jumping the gun and would be bullshit. Again, they did this after conducting an investigation, and after numerous accounts have come out. If you continue to employ someone like that, after this many people have come forward to say something about it, don't you see how this could be incredibly damaging? How many voice actors and actresses would probably not want to work with a company that clearly doesn't take their claims seriously and doesn't care enough about their safety to fire someone who has made numerous employees of theirs feel unsafe and uncomfortable? They would pretty much be sacrificing a bunch of their other VAs, not to mention their reputation as a company, by defending one man who is fairly obviously shady.
And, for the record, I am saying all of this as someone who met Vic at a con, has a picture with him that is on this very forum and could be found by anyone, who was not harassed by him in any way at this con (he was actually quite polite to me, in fact) despite my slight wariness since I had vaguely heard that female fans should be careful around him, and who has no personal reason at all to be biased against him. If anything, I would be biased in his favor (since he voices the main character of my favorite animanga series), and when this whole thing first started, I read his apology/defense and was open to the idea that maybe it wasn't true, and didn't want it to be true because it would make me sad (and fairly disgusted that I paid money for a picture with someone like him). But again, after seeing this many different accounts from this many different people (not just the posts linked here, but also the comments in a lot of said posts), if I sincerely still believed that Vic may be innocent, and tried to defend him…there is just absolutely no way in hell I could do that without being in deep denial.
But, at any rate, interested to see whom they cast as Sabo this time. I've also been meaning to watch the dub of JJBA: DiU, but haven't done so yet and thus haven't heard him as Rohan, but that's another one where I'm interested in seeing what happens with it.
(and apparently photographic evidence would not be enough because the victims would just be accused of "photoshopping it" or some junk like that).
There is actual evidence posted earlier of people who went out of there way to attempt to photoshop pictures. This is something that is unfortunate but very realistic. But your point on this one doesn't stand. There are numerous ways for officials to tell if a picture is legitimate or not.
@RJ:
Umm… No? A story doesn't get MORE proven when MORE people say something, a story gets MORE proven when the consistency of the stories align. and/or other evidence is presented
I could just as quickly say he touched me. Great a whole new story BELIEVE ME I'M A VICTIM
cept I've never touched him before. But now I've added to the numbers of people accusing him - even though I admitted I just lied [Or various stories got scrutinized and debunked] Does that make it more true or not? If more people have "stories" those stories and general M.O should be consistent, shouldn't they? Then how come when we look at these stories in depth they fall apart? They completely collapse under further scrutiny. And as NICE as it would be to say "BELIEVE THE VICTIMS"
You've made several assumptions.
1: that they're actually Victims.2: That somehow adding a few potential LIARS to a story somehow makes the story more valid.
The only argument is a demand for actual evidence or proof. So far NONE. Just stories. That's now enough to condemn a person
In the Beginning there was the Word [LOGOS] and it was with God.
I spoke earlier about the civics and philosophy of the founding principles. There is Platonic and Socratic philosophy behind this nation (The founders read Greek and Latin) The LOGOS that binds this land. The law of the land is more than a government law. It is an appeal to a higher power - God, YWHW, The Land itself, Natural Law [written with Caps], The Matrix, Akashic Records, ALLAH, Truth, The Buddhist Ideal whatever. It is the WORD it is held to similar importance.
It also applies to the court of public opinion. - This is why our government is beholden to the constitution, and it's so damn hard to ratify or amend it. What these people are accusing Vic of is a CRIMINAL OFFENSE with massive career, and life ending repercussions. So you know what? We will Treat this just like any other case in the court of law. You don't get to scream foul on somebody and then get away with it because technically you're not in a courtroom. That's the same absurd shit that started witch-hunts. It goes against our principles as a nation. A proxy court is still a court. Much like Citizen's arrest is still an arrest The court has a Jury of peers for this very reason. The government is run by your PEERS for a reason - The LOGOS that binds our government also applies to all of us then. We didn't even have a centralized police, fire-department or military for the longest time because of this peer principle. You can end the argument here, I will as well. I have other work to do.
Innocent until proven guilty.
Dude, no offense, I'm not trying to be mean-spirited or call you names or anything, but you come across like a rambling maniac. Might tone it down a bit, you know?
I'm not discrediting Robby, but I'm also not willing to believe his accounts are argument-ending "evidence" because there is an emotional bias and perception he has toward the man clearly, and I'm also not willing to believe his friends are all 100% truthful. That is a lot to expect for me to just believe everyone because "they said so."
First of all, I want to second Zephray said, it's nice to have people stay civil in such an argument. I hope you don't feel like you are being pummeled on because you have the minority opinion.
However.
Could you please elaborate on what kind of evidence you are demanding here? You must be aware that sexual abuse is very, very hard to prove physically. So what are the victims supposed to do if they don't have a photo that proves their accusations are true or something similar? Are they supposed to keep quiet? Or are they supposed to speak up but not expect any repercussions for their abuser, because they lack physical proof? There seem to be tons of eye witnesses that all support the accusations labeled against Vic Mignogna, and as I said earlier, witnesses count as evidence, too. The simple thing is this: if you simply accuse each and every single person accusing or speaking out against this guy as being biased, you are not only not going to find the actual truth, you are actively trying to ignore and deny it. I just wonder what it would take for you to change your opinion here. You must at least admit that all signs really, really strongly point to him being guilty.
There is actual evidence posted earlier of people who went out of there way to attempt to photoshop pictures. This is something that is unfortunate but very realistic. But your point on this one doesn't stand. There are numerous ways for officials to tell if a picture is legitimate or not.
And the photoshopper has been exposed as being a pro-Mignogna inflitrant. Nice self-own.
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dozens of testimonies and pictures from different women over the span of two decades
"It's a he said/she said situation. We have to be fair. Innocent until proven guilty!"
one obviously bullshit attempt at faking evidence
"This is convincing. Vic is exonerated."
I did touch on it a bit before but it was probably lost in everything. If there's one thing the guy who was banned said that I agree with, consistency is one thing.
Okay, so just to clarify again, I'm not a believer that Vic is 100% innocent. I am positive that some misconduct occurred. I'm also willing to believe that the guy acted like an asshole at cons, because let's face it, some people get on power trips. The thing is, while it is too much to expect photo evidence in this case (and as Zephray did say, mabe FUNi should consider more cameras in things like elevators, I dunno, where these types of things are more likely to occur.), the problem I'm having is that during the supposed last several decades that have been going on, apparently FUNi has never once had any issues or done anything about it until all of a sudden now. It makes the entire situation very shady. So yes, that's the biggest issue I have. The timing of everything, and how fast this supposed "investigation" went down. Everything happened too fast for me to be comfortable with it.
At the very least, I would like to see that were were civil charges or something pressed in the past. A sign other than just word of mouth that this has in fact been an ongoing issue. Not, "So-and-so had this happen 10 years ago." If it were just one or two cases, I can see the argument hold weight about the victims not coming forward, but when it's this many cases, it's hard for me to believe that out of all those people no one attempted to file any charges in the past. And why was FUNi apparently okay with these allegations until just last week? There's just so much not adding up that casts doubt on the whole situation for me. So yes, if the situation had progressed a bit more gradually then it probably would be easier for me to believe all of these reports, but the timing of it is what casts doubt in my mind.
And, well, I do appreciate the (mostly) civil responses. I ask myself why I usually find myself in the minority opinion. It seems like I find myself in the minority more often than I intend to be, lol.
@Kaiolino - Your sarcastic remark, however, disappoints me.
He has a point though. Dozens of people's testimonies don't prove anything and we shouldn't make a leap of judgment, but one faked photo is enough to proclaim that probably a lot of them are fake? That just seems like backwards logic and you believing what you want to believe and denying everything else.
Except you guys are grossly jumping to the conclusion I said that one example meant he was completely innocent. Are you guys just selectively reading my posts now? Probably, from the looks of it. Also, there are more than one cases of the photoshopping. Outside of that one case, as already posted, there is an example of a toxic group where at least some individuals (luckily the mode was civil about it) intended to photoshop pictures to make Vic look bad. It's more than one case, and it's just another example of showing how toxic people are being about the whole thing.
There are many red flags in the case that have been eluded to. They've already been brought up.
It's that age old question. How many accusations must a man walk down before you can call him a perv. The answer, according to Harvey Weinstein, atleast eighty.
At the very least, I would like to see that were were civil charges or something pressed in the past. A sign other than just word of mouth that this has in fact been an ongoing issue. Not, "So-and-so had this happen 10 years ago." If it were just one or two cases, I can see the argument hold weight about the victims not coming forward, but when it's this many cases, it's hard for me to believe that out of all those people no one attempted to file any charges in the past. And why was FUNi apparently okay with these allegations until just last week? There's just so much not adding up that casts doubt on the whole situation for me. So yes, if the situation had progressed a bit more gradually then it probably would be easier for me to believe all of these reports, but the timing of it is what casts doubt in my mind.
It surprised me to when I first learned, over a year ago at the beginning of the #meetoo movement, just how many women don’t report their abuse or harrassment. Look at the case of Larry Nassar if you want a case study of how many girls were abused and didn’t come forward or came forward in confidence and weren’t believed. It’s astouding and disheartening that these women didn’t come forward earlier, but it’s true. That guy was able to assault how many young girls and got away with it for how long? These things happen. That’s what the movement is about stopping, flaws and all. So, looking at the hundreds and thousands of cases of unreported rape and harrassment, I don’t have half as hard a time as you when it comes to no one pressing charges in the past. That doesn’t make me skeptical because over the past year, I’ve come to realize that’s normal, sad though it is.
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And as for your comment about the length of the investigation being too quick, I’m not sure why it would take longer than a week or two. They need to email all their talent in a mass email and ask for their stories or difficulties with Vic in the past. Then they compile all of those and ask for corroboration from anyone else involved; they hold meetings with staff and the accusers, look up any cases filed against Vic with local PD or the PD where he used to live (to see if he has a history of this stuff), then figure out if what they have is enough to warrant action. If their HR team is more than one person, this could feasibly be done in two eight hour days. And I agree again with Bfaith’s comments. It hurts the company if they have a toxic work environment and voice actors begin refusing to work on Vic productions or anywhere near him.
Wasn't it said the photoshop thing was a troll that made the victims look bad… come on people... use logic... allegations since the FMA days unless all these people planned to ruin his life 10 plus years later...
wow, just caught up on this thread…so many faces that aren't even usually in this thread, this Vic thing really is getting people talking.
And yeah I already said this when the first twitter thread happened but, good riddens to Vic. I guess something positive about no news on the next season dub is that we won't have to worry about a delay because of this Sabo recast.
I searched "Vic Mignogna" on Youtube and could not find a literal one result not defending Vic. Outrage sells I guess.
I searched "Vic Mignogna" on Youtube and could not find a literal one result not defending Vic. Outrage sells I guess.
Isn’t YouTube mostly alt-right when it comes to politics or political issues? A while ago, I watched a few videos on Jordan Peterson and now my recommended feed is swamped with alt-right propoganda videos.
Also, our opinions might be the majority on this forum, but take a look at funimation’s tweet responses and you’ll see we aren’t in the majority there either.
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We used to have a One Piece dub and now we have heated arguments about sexual harassment. :[[[[
Sexual harassment discussion IV has a nice ring to it y'know
This thread has gotten WAY off topic. I think it's time we move any discussion about Vic to another thread, unless something comes out about them recasting Sabo.
I agree. This definitely warrants its own topic.
I put together a thread that hopefully should cover it: http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=52035&p=3964277
But I'll repeat it up here: we need to be respectful to each other even when we have differing beliefs. If that's not possible, we can't have the matter open for discussion. Let's do out best, and keep this thread open for talk on the show itself.