Quality of translations

[Bounty1Berry]

Looking at a page someone mentioned in the 'Volume 8 gaffe' thread, I had a serious look at the MSN-group manga translations. I had been reading the Viz translation last night (actually keeping it open to pages near there as a reference for a fanart I'll post later), and their take on Chapter 69 seemed bizarre, at best. The grammar felt strange, gyojin was translated as 'mermaid', giving the Arlong pirates a quick sex-change operation, and they came up with a spelling of Hatchi I never knew existed. On page 15 of chapter 69, they also cleaned out Hatchi (Haji )'s first dialogue baloon without refilling it. :wacko:

Are these considered relatively poor translations? Do they get better later?

Is there a heirarchy of 'better' and 'worse' translations the way there is with the anime (Gerusama and K-F > HK > 4kids :D)

[changsho]

I think their source of RAW was the Chinese version of the manga. That would explain why it's so hard to get the proper Romaji spelling of the names. Arlong's name was spelled right because his name's spelled on his mansion.

[CosmicDebris]

Well, when I think of quality translations, I think of Stephen's scripts…but if you only want scanlations, the quality does get better in later volumes. Have you read NULL's?

[Bounty1Berry]

No… I lacked the bandwidth. The only reason I noticed the MSN-group ones was cos someone linked a page of them to show something in another thread.

[Zephos]

Even the later scripts have annoying things like japanese pronouns for everyone, lack of any contractions, and wierd name spellings…..

Stephen is the king.

[oceanizer]

Name spellings won't be official until Oda himself actually spell it in somewhere.

Remember we spelled Cutty Flam as Kati Fram until it was actually spelled in a chapter (happened both on stephen and me)? Same to Iceberg / Iceburg. Even though those are not major, the same thing is going on.

That said, yeah, earlier One Piece scanlations was based on Chinese raws. I know one of the group who's done that, and they tried their best but… it's Chinese->English translation after all.

As for recent Null, I heard it's much better. When is recent? Maybe Water 7 arc? (I remember spotting translation mistake around the time Ao Kiji appeared and froze Robin.)

[warp]

yeah the new translations now for msn arent that bad. tho they put califa as karfia its that big of a deal

[ooshi78]

i'm not a fan of stephens stuff… reading oceans stuff is better imo. i like translations where i can imagine what was actually written in japanese. at least that's what i try to do with mine. i'd like to think if someone was to reverse translate mine back into japanese, that they would end up with something close to the original script.

i don't read the scanslated stuff, although i would have to say that you shouldn't be too picky with the names and stuff. there are no real "official spellings" unless oda spells them out. we've been spelling eneas lobby wrong this whole time (i think it's enies lobby).

ooshi78

[Mog]

i like translations where i can imagine what was actually written in japanese.

Okay, doesn't that somewhat defeat the entire purpose of a translation? That wouldn't be too much different than running the whole thing through Babelfish and somehow converting it to be gramatically correct.

I like my translations to be correct and enjoyable to read in the language it was translated too… not in Japanese. If I want that I'd just read the original version.

[oceanizer]

No, it just depends on how much do you localize in translation. I had some very bad localization before (in my real work, a technical document) and ended up my coworker and I (both not professinoal translators) were correcting most of it in our private time.

I think stephen's is okay though. I've read other free translation (Ultra Maniac, a shoujo) and that was… too localized. And I still read stephen's time to time just to get some new English phrase for myself :P But I do agree that in some translation I did feel "huh? that's not what it meant" or "something's different..." It's not only me. We've talked about it in Japanese thread once (with Japanese speaker of course :P).

But I agree with ooshi. I like it better if I could imagine what was written in Japanese just by reading in English. And usually with stephen's, I can kind of guess why he changed the translation.

@Mog, try comparing Babelfish translation with mine :P They're different. Though my English has grammartical error here and there for I'm not a native English speaker, I usually keep it correct without any creative work of translator. Localizing the translation to fit English (or rather, American?) audience is good, but I usually keep in mind that people take the English and translate it further to other languages. That's why "creative work" (free translation) should be kept minimal. Or that's what I say. Every time translation happens, it loses a word or two here and there. (Happens to everyone.)

/me thinks of when he does Eng->Jpn translation.
… Actually I do free translation on those... Ha ha ^^; But still w/i the limit though. If I translate it back to English, it still mean the same.

If you're interested, here is the comparison I've done for Ultra Maniac:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/oceanizer/25991.html

[warp]

hahaha i dont know i usually like readings stepehen's because he does vols insted of chapters lol (well hes does do weekly stuff too but he also does the vols)

[CosmicDebris]

@oceanizer:

If you're interested, here is the comparison I've done for Ultra Maniac:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/oceanizer/25991.html

Can't seem to view that, ocean…

Well, it's obvious that it's a matter of personal preference with how much localization a person likes. Some people here like as little localization as possible, others want as much as possible. I'm somewhere inbetween. I actually like it when some Japanese words are left in and things like that, but I feel that sometimes the decision to localize a phrase or joke is a wise one, if it gets me to understand the point better.
I always read ocean's or ooshi's translation here first, and then read Stephen's once they come out. I don't know Japanese, so I don't know personally whether something has been translated as best as it can be or not, but I haven't ever come across a situation where I read ocean's or ooshi's, and then Stephen's and seen any clear contradiction, just slightly different interpretation.

[Mog]

@Mog, try comparing Babelfish translation with mine :P They're different. Though my English has grammartical error here and there for I'm not a native English speaker, I usually keep it correct without any creative work of translator.

Oh, I wasn't referring to you at all with the Babelfish thing. My apologies if you assumed so. And sure there can be really bad localization present in translations. However, the discussion was on stephen's scripts, and I happen to think such is not the case in the slightest there.

Frankly, I think they're about the best translations can get. Especially for One Piece, which seems to have suffered from many translation groups preferring to leave things entirely untranslated, which is well known to be a large pet peeve of mine (I think). That is actually why I also like NULL pretty well: They're for the most part pretty good translations (Apart from the occasional screw-up) and… I dunno, I just like how coherent and ''clean'' they are. Though perhaps it's just because I'm so relieved not to stumble across ''nakama'' every other sentence.

Stephen beats them by just being really good with the English language, which I think is frankly a given if you want to translate well. Plus, when it comes to difficult to translate Japanese puns or terms, stephen doesn't just go ''screw it, I'll just leave this like it was'', but tries his best to convert them to the English language.

That's how I want my translations to be.

[SaiyaJedi]

@Mog:

Stephen beats them by just being really good with the English language, which I think is frankly a given if you want to translate well. Plus, when it comes to difficult to translate Japanese puns or terms, stephen doesn't just go ''screw it, I'll just leave this like it was'', but tries his best to convert them to the English language.

I like Stephen's translations pretty well, because he really gives it a sense of "flow" in English that the other fan-translations lack (at least for his more recent ones; some of the earlier volumes' translations are more literal and prone to errors / misinterpretations).

That said, I do have to nitpick him on a number of things, such as his translation of the Navy's rank system in volume 8, which he uses throughout the rest of his One Piece scripts. The chart mixes English Army and Navy ranks (for which Japanese uses the same words), creating a rather confused jumble of conflicting ranks from Commander (chuusa) on down. Granted, the Navy/Army debate has gone on for years in the Mobile Suit Gundam camp, and one can argue whether the lower ranks really belong in a Naval classification system since they're actual naval marines, but I still think it's troublesome to claim that taisa (Naval Captain / Army Colonel) and tai'i (Naval Lieutenant / Army Captain) both mean the same thing in English.

On the other hand, I never seem to fault him for using "Marines" when referring to the entire organization, if only because the blunder is so commonplace and easily understood that I just correct it in my head anyway.

[oceanizer]

Can't seem to view that, ocean…
Oh, I forgot I friend locked it for some reason. It should be okay now...

I actually like it when some Japanese words are left in and things like that
I'm not talking about those though. I think everything should be translated (ie no Nakama or Baka or Kawaii left in the script :P).

Oh, I wasn't referring to you at all with the Babelfish thing.
Oh no, I wasn't taking it personally but was using mine as example since probably my translation is the best example because mine is more direct translation than free translation. And that was in reponse to:

i like translations where i can imagine what was actually written in japanese.

Okay, doesn't that somewhat defeat the entire purpose of a translation? That wouldn't be too much different than running the whole thing through Babelfish and somehow converting it to be gramatically correct.

Direct translation (babelfish), keeping it as original as possible but not awkward in English (ocean ooshi?), localizing (stephen), and too much localization (Ultra Maniac) are different. That's what I wanted to say.

@SaiyaJedi, stephen probably never uses Marines in translation because Oda puts "Navy" in texts even though he puts "Marine" on pictures. It's not our fault.

[Zephos]

@warp:

hahaha i dont know i usually like readings stepehen's because he does vols insted of chapters lol (well hes does do weekly stuff too but he also does the vols)

All those Volumes were once chapters y'know…

I remember reading his Skypiea Vol.28 scripts when they were listed under "Weekly Jump Chapters"

And one thing, Mr.3 ends all his speech baloons with "money" in Japanese?
Whats that about Ocean?

[ooshi78]

there seems to be some confusion…

i try to leave it so that everything that's said in one bubble of text is the exact same as what's in my translations. if you take my translation, one line of my translation is one bubble of text. stephen generalizes what the character says so the bubbles don't really match. i think there's a reason why oda puts different words/parts of different text in different bubbles and i try to keep things close to the way he created them (it's actually a lot more challenging). anybody can take a script and generalize what's on a page and make it sound good. for me the challenge is to take what's in every bubble and translate it so that it makes sense and i'm not adding or taking away anything.

ooshi78

[Cap'n Carter]

To get through the MSN sites, I eventually had to use Stephen's scripts alongside their scans.

I always found NULL to be a bit questionable.

I use Ooshi and Ocean's when the chapter first comes out because it's faster, but I find it annoying to wade through all of the sound fx.

So, I prefer Stephen.

[Ubiq]

@Cap'n:

I use ooshi and ccean's when the chapter first comes out because it's faster, but I find it annoying to wade through all of the sound fx.

So, I prefer Stephen.

Same here, though my issue is less with the sound effects and more with the grammar. Sometimes the differences between Japanese and English in sentence structure and basic grammar make a straightforward translation difficult to read.

Literal translations can also lessen emotion at times, especially if there is a similar English word that carries more dramatic weight.

[changsho]

NULL:

Stephen:
Kaku: {That was a very heavy kick…!! He almost broke the "Tekkai."}
Blueno!! Be careful!! He may not have a bounty,
but I think he's one of their principal fighters!!

Major, major difference. Thoughts?

[Pivitor]

@changsho:

NULL:

Stephen:
Kaku: {That was a very heavy kick…!! He almost broke the "Tekkai."}
Blueno!! Be careful!! He may not have a bounty,
but I think he's one of their principal fighters!!

Major, major difference. Thoughts?

Strange. I read that chapter on the free MSN site and it claimed to be done by Null, yet I distinctly remember reading Stephen's translation on that page. The "he almost broke the Tekkai!" line really stood out to me.

Strange.

[CosmicDebris]

Wow, now that's an example of taking too much liberty with the translation. I haven't read NULL or the MSN in a long time, nor do I know if they're the same…

[stephen]

I think there's a pretty good range of translating philosophy to be found among the regularly produced translations of OP (disregarding those ahem that anyone would find to be sketchy at best), where you can have several versions that are all recognizably distinct from each other, yet serve the same purpose adequately.

It should not be a big surprise that ooshi and I have different philosophies when translating, based on the huge difference between our respective outputs. There was once a time, way back years ago when I started translating as a way to improve my Japanese, that I would be very concerned about preserving sentence structure, either because I saw my scripts as having some responsibility to help others learn Japanese (based on the way that Mangajin worked), or because I simply was not proficient or comfortable enough with the language to be able to distinguish analogous bits of grammar from intentionally different meanings. Most times that I had to change something just for it to make any sense in English, I would even write a note explaining that I had changed something grammatical (or whatever), because I imagined that people reading the Japanese would recognize a discrepancy between that and my script and either come yelling at me or end up totally confused or mistaken. Of course, over time I realized that such people do not really exist, because if they know enough Japanese to see a change in my translation, they don't really need the script anyway (ergo fuck'em), and I gradually moved away from the idea that I was somehow responsible for teaching people Japanese, instead of simply making sure an entertaining manga in Japanese was also entertaining in English. So over time my translating philosophy has become, "If my script does not feel as funny/moving/exciting/witty when I read it in English as the manga feels to me when I read it in Japanese, I'm not doing it right." If I have to rearrange a sentence or ten to do that, it's a sacrifice I am totally comfortable making.

Other translators have their own philosophies about how or why they do things, and from what I've seen, the OP community is pretty blessed to have several different translations that serve different purposes and audiences without ever "cancelling each other out" or being extraneous.

[oceanizer]

Of course, over time I realized that such people do not really exist, because if they know enough Japanese to see a change in my translation, they don't really need the script anyway (ergo fuck'em)

Wrong, sera and I check your translation to improve our English xD!

@Cap'n:

I use Ooshi and Ocean's when the chapter first comes out because it's faster, but I find it annoying to wade through all of the sound fx.

Did you know SFX is pretty important? For example in c346, SFX illustrates that Iceburg is getting nervous very well. Unless you're familiar with Japanese somewhat, you wouldn't know those SFX says "thump… thump… thump… thump… thump… thump…." You'll only know something is getting bigger… Actually I totally believed that stephen would at least those SFXs in, but... ... he didn't :/ I'm actually curious about that. :P

As for what ooshi said in stephen's style... ... I heard he's doing it so scanlators will have trouble creating scanlation out of his script that way. I don't know if it's what he intended or not, but really understandable. I was gonna do that after I heard that, too, but... I'm too used to type out bubble by bubble ^^; I bet stephen does that for scanlation use, too, don't you, stephen? I think typing out bubble by bubble isn't so difficult. I only had... two or three time I had trouble with that and my proofreaders made them sound good so I'm satisfied :)

[stephen]

@oceanizer:

Wrong, sera and I check your translation to improve our English xD!

But my point is that you don't need to read them to understand the manga, right? At least, you're not e-mailing me to complain about it (all I really care about :P).

Actually I totally believed that stephen would at least those SFXs in, but… ... he didn't :/ I'm actually curious about that. :P

I just hate translating sound effects, that's all. First of all, they take a lot of extra time and effort that I don't like making, especially when I have a lot of work to do already. Secondly, I do not have much confidence in my ability to make convincing onomatopoeia in English. When I do scripts for Tokyopop I have to do all the sound effects, but I'm never sure whether I should try to make up some nonsense sound word (whrr, bfmfm, skressh etc) or just go with something literal (crash, bang, boom, zap) and I rarely end up satisfied. Does the nonsense word make sense to someone reading? Is the 'actual' word very bland and plain as a sound effect? I'd prefer not to get into that kind of hassle in my 'for fun' work, which is why I don't even translate the animal sound bubbles. Third of all, rarely do I get the feeling that it is vital to translate sound effects. In general I just make the assumption (perhaps fallacious) that people can figure out enough information they need from the physical representation of the sound. Of course there are times when there is a very important distinction and in rare cases I will put a sfx into the script but it's usually heavily dependent on my state of mind at the time. Perhaps on a different day I would have inserted the beats of Iceburg's pulse in the script, but that time I didn't. Fourth, because of all the scanlations I've translated my default style is to only translate sfx that are in bubbles or clearly separate from any art, for editing reasons. Of course I don't often do the bubble sfx in OP, because of some of the reasons above, and the difference from my normal style always irritates me somewhat, which is another reason why OP sfx give me a headache: I'm torn between my desire not to translate them and my ingrained routine of always doing stuff in bubbles. I've never actually discussed this subject with anyone before, so I have no idea whether my conceptions of what the reader needs to follow the story are accurate or not.

As for what ooshi said in stephen's style… ... I heard he's doing it so scanlators will have trouble creating scanlation out of his script that way. I don't know if it's what he intended or not, but really understandable. I was gonna do that after I heard that, too, but... I'm too used to type out bubble by bubble ^^; I bet stephen does that for scanlation use, too, don't you, stephen? I think typing out bubble by bubble isn't so difficult. I only had... two or three time I had trouble with that and my proofreaders made them sound good so I'm satisfied :)

Actually, I do separate them by bubble. Every bubble is on a new line. Again, this is because I'm used to typing up scripts for editors who need to know what goes where. In fact, before I joined Mangascreener I would not distinguish between bubbles. Any uninterrupted dialogue by a particular character would get thrown into one big paragraph, and you can probably find several examples of that in my unrevised older OP scripts. But now I always distinguish the bubbles, and I typically make sure that the amount of text matches the size of the bubble. Of course in the case of OP it's more out of habit than actual functionality, since I don't want anyone to make scanlations with them.

[CosmicDebris]

So over time my translating philosophy has become, "If my script does not feel as funny/moving/exciting/witty when I read it in English as the manga feels to me when I read it in Japanese, I'm not doing it right."

I think that's a good philosophy, personally, and one reason why I like your scripts so much. You have also become much better, I wasn't very fond of the excessive foul language in the early scripts. :3

[oceanizer]

@stephen:

But my point is that you don't need to read them to understand the manga, right? At least, you're not e-mailing me to complain about it (all I really care about :P).

I did once… and got... out of hand? I just couldn't explain it well :x

[Jeltz]

@Pivitor:

Strange. I read that chapter on the free MSN site and it claimed to be done by Null, yet I distinctly remember reading Stephen's translation on that page. The "he almost broke the Tekkai!" line really stood out to me.

Strange.

The almsot broke the tekkai line is the same in null's translation. It is the second part that is weird.

[Junkman]

here's what a guy who does the rewrites of translations for tokyopop had to say awhile ago to a guy asking about translations.

"It's really a tough call. I think you could only get a real answer from someone who can read the original, and most people I know who are doing scripts are like me, and can't actually read Japanese. So, we are handed a script that is a very basic translation and we have to puzzle it out from there. The main thing is that how much leeway we have as far as slang and things. Like, I have been given some titles where I have been told do as you see fit to make it appeal to American youth and some where I was told try to stay as straight as possible. I work with one translator pretty regularly who I know does a really clean conversion, so I can trust him to point the way. I can then suss out some of the style based on how things are phrased, repetition of certain phrases, etc. Ai Yori Aoshi is a good example of this.

I've also worked on some translations that are such a mess, it's anybody's guess what to make out of it. And maybe my worst example was when the translator thought because one of the characters spoke a certain dialect, all of that character's lines should be translated so she sounded like she was from the American south. I nixed that idea, thinking it would add a little bit of the wrong coloring to the mix.

I suspect Tezuka's work was fairly simplistic, though, and so they might be pretty straight translations. Or it may depend on the editor and how much budget they have to hire a number of hands to work on the book. I find I can tell when a book is translated and scripted by the same person. It's usually much stiffer."

the whole conversation is here.

http://www.onipress.com/community/messages.php?msg=5242.1&search_string=tezuka translation

it was done feb. 2005

[Ivotas]

@stephen:

So over time my translating philosophy has become, "If my script does not feel as funny/moving/exciting/witty when I read it in English as the manga feels to me when I read it in Japanese, I'm not doing it right." If I have to rearrange a sentence or ten to do that, it's a sacrifice I am totally comfortable making.

I agree with CosmicDebris on that. That´s why I love your translations so much. Even without that statement you could tell that this has become your philosophy by reading your scripts.

I understand the points ocean and the rest make about not trying to localize it too much. And from their point of view they are right. But there´s also another point of view. I for instance don´t understand japanese but as much as many other One Piece fans that don´t understand a word I want to have a very good understanding of what Oda is trying to tell us with his story. And I think that for people like my Stephen´s scripts are perfect. I don´t mind him for changing a sentence if it is for a better understanding of the feel of it. I often pay attention to bad german translations no matter in what story and I often find myself that if I would have aimed for a decent translation of the bigger picture, then I would have had to change some sentences. Of course they wouldn´t be the same anymore, but then the big idea gets transfered into the translation and I think this should be the idea if you translate it for people who want to know what´s going on in the real deal but don´t understand the language.

I mean if it would be stories like DragonBall Z, then I wouldn´t even care for a decent translation because the most of it is fighting or work out talk, no matter how you twist it it often comes out as the same. But for a story with absolutely mindblowing foreshadowing, characterisation and plot twists I consider it very essential to understand properly what the author is trying to tell us. If a sentence doesn´t mean the same as in the original, but the authors message is, then I gladly take the wrong sentance if it brings me closer to the authors idea.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Since changsho posted that Null/Stephen thing I couldn´t help myself and had to post this stuff too. This is from chapter 346, pg 17.

Null

Stephen
Kaku: "This marks the end of our time together. We have no more need of you."

I don´t know about you guys, but to me this is the same scene and yet two completely different characters speaking.

[ooshi78]

as for special effects… a lot of manga artist make up their own, so that's why i like to leave them alone. Dr. Slumps arare's "kiiiiiin" would be so wrong translated as "zooom" or something. same thing with oda's "don" (although not created by him). japanese readers have to adjust to new special effects everytime they read a new series, so i figure american readers can learn them too.

i do try to adjust the strength of my translations based on the manga, but i try to do it within the bubbles.

ooshi78

[changsho]

@Jeltz:

The almsot broke the tekkai line is the same in null's translation. It is the second part that is weird.

Didn't mean to cut the panel with Kaku saying that line, sorry ^_^;

Before reading raws, Null's scanlations are my primary source of One Piece. But then, visiting ArlongPark's site and finding the forum made me read raws, too. Although I still get Null's scans for later reading and filing, I still read the raws first.

Personally, I enjoyed Stephen's, ocean's and ooshi's script. I trust that they try their best to convert the Japanese phrases into English words, without distorting the meaning. The choice of words can influence the characters, and I appreciate your efforts in maintaining their personalities.

After reading scripts, and then getting Null's, I usually compare the dialogues. Although Null's scans are easier to read, some of the phrases have entirely different meanings ("They'll cut your pay!" <– I mean, CP9 doesn't really seem to care about money.)

Also in the same chapter (374), they chose to use "Should have faith in Luffy" for SogeKing's line. I prefer stronger words, such as "Believe/Trust in Luffy", since it represents the drama better.

Again in the same chapter, the explanation for why Robin turned on her comrades differ.
Stephen's:
Blueno: So to her, the Buster Call
is a nightmare that can never be erased.
If the very fear that was implanted in her at such a young age
has now been turned against her own comrades,
_- Page 18 -

Blueno: Then she has lost the will to fight back against us._

NULL's:
Blueno: In other words, due to the Buster Call… As far as that woman is concerned, she is an irredeemable evil. Those memories of terror planted in her days of youth... are what caused her to turn on her comrades.

Blueno: It seems as though you lost your will to fight.

Irredeemable evil? Who is it again that lost the will to fight?

I hold no grudge against Null's translation, but major errors like this not only confuses the readers, it also fails to represent Oda's storytelling ability.

[igalsfy]

usually, i prefer the translations made by stephen/ooshi/ocean because them seem to try and fit the original meaning exactly, as i feel as null try to make the sentences sound more english or natural, which sometimes completely change the way the text is said, even if the meaning is globally the same.

but hell null scanlation quality rocks and they're my source for old chapters re-read.