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Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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@Alfiere said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
except Momo is now also the Oden that stays and protects his family and country. As is, Momo and Yamato don't contrast, they overlap.
Their role as a protector overlaps, but I still see Momo as the Shogunate side; more his grandfather than his father. Someone who will actually take their duties seriously, but who doesn't have the pure force of "will" that Oden or Yamato had, which is why Yamato had to stay. I also think Yamato will fulfill the other aspect of Oden and leave for the sea eventually, but only at a time and place when Wano is safe or perhaps on the move.
Forget joining the crew, Yamato didn't even get to say a single line about the demise if his father.
I can't help but read this as kind of an arbitrary thing to bring up in this conversation. Again, i'm not arguing that he told the story the best, but that there was a purpose to the character. I don't think that imperfection really affects what I'm saying.
Even if he's supposed to be the prime example of the extent of Kaido's willbreaking MO, that doesn't really work. He never lost his resolve and eagerly joined forces with any ostile invader the second they set foot on Onigashima.
That's why I said "attempted will-breaking." Yamato contextualizes how cruel Kaido can be, how he attempts to break wills, and how he views the world as a brutal, take-it-by-the-horns meritocracy, even towards his own flesh and blood. Whatever broke Kaido (which is constantly hinted at, but I don't think we get a sufficient for the moment breakdown of) is how he attempts to break others.
I'm sure Oda will eventually sneak in some purpose for the guy, but I find really hard to argue against that up until now Yams was just a waste of time, space and a cool design.
I think there's something to be said for Oda's pacing not fulfilling promises in a timeframe that matches what we readers crave, but I still think that he typically does answer them eventually. My guess is that other roles of Yamato will become much clearer in the future. It won't necessarily make people as happy as if they got what they wanted when it wanted, but it a lot of people will like it.
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If you ask me anything bad about Yams stems from the original sin of creating Oden. Or anything bad about Japanland in general.
Step one, make the most unlikeable creature alive
Step two, give him the full Poochie treatment and connect everyone of note into one long self-eating fellatio line around him
Step 3, ????
Step 4, Wano is a mess
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@wolfwood said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Alfiere when they cloned him there was some slight degeneration in the name DNA so his clone is sad boy now, which makes him even more tragic. Plus joy boy kept laughing at him
Mh, the science checks out. Guess you're right.
@andre said in [Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !]
I can't help but read this as kind of an arbitrary thing to bring up in this conversation. Again, i'm not arguing that he told the story the best, but that there was a purpose to the character. I don't think that imperfection really affects what I'm saying.
It was an example of a different angle of Yamato's Arc other than the "joining the crew" one still not going anywhere. You'd think that Kaido's lifelong abused son would have some insight on the demise of his father and the beast pirates, but not even a small sigh of relief was shown. It's not a problem of imperfect storytelling, but one of the many ways Yamato's presence in the story turned out completely pointless.
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Beyond the lack of reaction to Kaidous defeat, I was confounded that the "You have the blood of an Oni! The Samurai will hate you!" angle never got more play. Like, Wano closes with a photo of Yamato hanging out with the other retainers like they're pals...but we skip completely over the part where the other scabbards come to terms with the literal son of Kaidou wanting to be their friend. With very, very few exceptions I don't think they were even aware of Yamas existence before the group pose?
Yams' relation to the Beast Pirates by the end also felt weirdly undercooked. Despite his utter enforced isolation Yamato managed to make a genuine friend in that one six-legged Numbers guy...who then seems to fall out of the manga. The Beast pirates in general seems to hold Yamato in some esteem, though Yamato doesn't seem to care about them at all (apart from that one time he...briefly defended Onagashima from Ace? For reasons), but then at the end Yamato can use his status to compel the remaining Beast pirates to stand down...and then the remaining beast pirates, and Yamatos relation to them, also seem to fall out of the manga.
Yamato feels like a character cooked up by Oda in a fit of creative passion, like the supernovas, but only here the heat was on to immediately find a narrative use for Yamato, and nothing ever really stuck.
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The Wanoese were way too busy shouting their war cry about the charcoal clan to worry about ogres
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@Daz completely agreed. As many problems with Wano, it always comes to the same conclusion: the arc lacked an extra 5-10 chapters to expand Kaido's flashbacks (plural) and the epilogue. So many rushed plots, or threads that were left hanging, or ignored entirely, could have been settled in a more satisfying manner, it would have avoided the bitter aftertaste.
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@Daz said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I was confounded that the "You have the blood of an Oni! The Samurai will hate you!" angle never got more play.
And let's not forget the flashback back then where even the most hardcore samurai, including Zoro-Dad, basically instantly embosomed Yamato and just gave up all their food without any second thought.
Seriously, that "You have the blood of an Oni! The Samurai will hate you!" angle just is one of these many subplots nowadays which just completely lacks any emotional weight it could - and should - have had.
Like, in chapter 1025 it just has absolutely no emotional weight when Kaido says something like "It doesn't matter what you do, the samurai will never consider you one of them. You are alone!!!". Because that was already perfectly proven as completely wrong by chapter 1024.
Just imagine if, back in Alabasta when Crocodile roasted Vivi, she actually successfully roasted back at him...
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Oh right Zoro dad. I forgot about him
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Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.
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Imu sitting in his five grandparents basement shouting -It's not a phase!
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@Greg I was wondering: given how the end is nigh and there's a lot of litteral groud left to cover, is it possible that next time the crew splits on different islands (if), we get to follow in real time each of the two (?) parties?
In other words, is it thinkable to get the present-day camera off of Luffy's neck for an actual, however short, arc, or that just something this manga doesn't do, no matter what?Curiosity has its own reason for existing
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I don't see Yamato being with the Scabbards as something being overlooked.
I thought that was 1 of the points of the Oden flashback. Same reason why Kaido left Yamato to the Daimyo in that cave to survive. Or Oden taking in Neko, Inu, Raizo, or any other "outcast". Oden is the outcast. Yamato being the kid of the enemy and still being inspired by Oden is the spirit of what Oda possibly wanted to message in.
Mink, Fishman, low self esteem ninja, Oni, this is his ideal Wano. Perfect individual to go around and challenge those in Wano that harbor the old way.
Highly doubt any of those individuals that carry Oden's will would be against another that does the same. Flashback was ignited by the Scabbards telling Momo that they can't turn back or reschedule. It went into who Oden is and those touched by his actions whether favorable or not. Once it ended, the first major Onigashima narrative was centered around another carrying on his will/had the journal and that was the enemy's son.
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Yamato's character was a complete betrayal of everything the series once stood for and it's what finally broke me of any hope and optimism I once had for the story. It's what opened my eyes and made me see how burnt out Oda is and how incapable he has become of steering this massive ship he's created. This isn't me just being salty, regardless of how you feel about the character, whether you loved or hated him, it all comes down to a simple fact. A character gave up their dream to explore the world. Yamato spent a decade on that island, starving and freezing and being tortured. It is nothing but a stew of bad memories and trauma, people he cared about died trying to protect him. He was always trying to run away and explore the world so he could finally be free and emulate his idol. But when the time came to leave, Yamato was not allowed to by the flimsiest of writing excuses.
Now you can point at Brook and Jimbei and say how they didn't join immediately until they took care of certain baggage, there is a massive difference between I have to take care of x and I will join right away and I gotta stay and take care of this brat for who knows how long because despite everything that happened, he still can't take care of himself (completely undermining said character's whole arc in the process, like what was even the point of the Green Bull fight!?!) especially when Oda is clearly full steam ahead to wrap up the story as quickly as possible.
You can try and make comparisons with Vivi and I can point out that a) Vivi got to go on three arcs worth of adventures, had plenty of bonding time with the crew and we got our fill of her and will continue to do so b) she loved her goddamn country and didn't want to leave opposed to Yamato who fucking hated it there and wanted nothing more but to leave but had to stay because of RESPONSIBILITIES. You know who had responsibilities? Jimbei, he had a crew to look after but they told him to be selfish and think of his own happiness. Because first and foremost the story used to be about finding your own personal happiness.
You can say there's still a chance he'll join eventually and to that I would say please don't waste my time because joining post One Piece ending for one panel doesn't goddamn count and is an emotional cheat. I wanna be like my idol and go on the greatest adventure ever while missing out on the greatest adventure ever.
What disgusts me the most about how the character was written is how much Oda clearly didn't give a shit about him. Yamato was clearly written out of a flit of passion in order to fulfill some narrative goal and to streamline the story. There's nothing wrong with that, that's how Oda and a lot of writers work and they build on top of what they create. But the way Yamato was handled was so transparently utilitarian. You drop all these interesting character and story hooks, being a child of an Oni, wanting friendship and to be accepted, his one and only friend dying and not being there to help him, wanting to be accepted and be part of a group of people who have been ruthlessly massacred by his own father. And then you proceed to do absolutely nothing with any of these things.
Like Rebecca is probably the worst character in the story but even she felt like at least Luffy gave a shit about her. Her relationship with her father was the emotional centerpiece of Dressrosa, there was an emotional catharsis to her reunion, her happiness and joy was the final bullet point of the arc. Yamato is like who cares? He is just accepted as part of the samurai with no fanfare, his father died, his one ticket off the island as well as a chance to visit his dead friend's grave just left and all of it is just such a waste. Like all of it was an emotional goldmine if Oda cared enough to try. Like when Luffy tagged back in the fight after Yamato was holding back his dad, that was the perfect opportunity to have an emotional scene where Kaido scoffs at Yamato about not having friends and never being accepted by the samurai and Luffy shouting back at him how he's full of it and Yamato is his friend and Momonosuke shouting at him that he is the shogun and he will definitely be accepted by him. Wouldn't have needed to add anything page wise, just a few small changes would have had a major effect on how the character was handled, Yamato would have felt like an actual person with a story and not a tool of plot convenience and merchandise.
His fucking not joining was an afterthought handled in flashback. That is absolutely absurd and something that used to be unthinkable for someone of Oda's caliber of writing. Like how could you have spent so much pages and screentime on this character and then just throw them into the trash like they're a minor character?
And this isn't just salt. This isn't just me being angry a character I liked didn't get to join the crew. This is a symptom of a much bigger problem. The story used to be about giving emotional life lessons on living a good life full of fulfillment and freedom and choosing your own destiny. It used to go through painstaking depth into fleshing out every character, even the most minor, as much as it could to give them some level of depth and agency. It used to go the extra mile to mine any emotional weight it could out of a scenario because the author cared enough to try and tell a good story.
Now it's just fucking boring lore dumps and fast tracking plot threads and using up characters like they're disposable and throwing them away.
And I didn't used to be this jaded and cynical, I was the biggest let's wait and see with the Wano arc and even after the anti-climax that was the ending of that arc, I was still ready to believe that it was just a one off fluke, that it just got too big and things got away from Oda, that Oda still cared and still had his passion and wanted to tell good stories and treat his characters with a modicum of respect.
Then Oda off-screen a Strawhat not joining and that broke me.
Over 15 years of loyally watching the anime and reading the manga. Now I can't enjoy the story anymore.
This isn't me trying to be malicious or being a hater or being butthurt, this is what I honestly feel. If you can still enjoy the story, power to you, I can't get any joy out of it anymore. Big moments like OH MY GOD IT'S A ROCKS PIRATE CLONE or OH MY GOD AN ELDER STARS IS DOING SOMETHING used to freak me out with excitement. Now they just bore me.
I just wanted Oda to tell a good story but he's not interested in that anymore, he is too caught up with trying to finish his story as quickly as possible, tying up as many loose threads as he can and to cement his legacy. Sorry if you disagree, I wish I didn't feel this way either.
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I dunno if i would go that far. But i could argue that Oda is suffering a little bit from the how i met your mother problem. Dude had an ending in mind, got sidetracked by building and enjoying this whole expanding world, only to realize oh shit my plot bearing exit is coming up better turn on my turn signal. Which comes sort of abrupt after we spent so long crusing along small country roads, enjoying the scenary, only to deja vu drift into the plot twist lore dump freeway gunning 190 km/h into the ending we only recently started to explore. It ends up feeling a little like that meme where the first half of the horse is drawn in exquisite detail and the last half is scribbled in. But hey even when it goes all Naruto on you it is still one hell of a ride
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Early Wano was proof enough to me that Odas level of dedication to Luffy was a bit much for my taste. I think generally he handles Luffy amazingly, but it still felt like a waste to have him beat all the early villains and basically prove nothing or make any thematic resonance that other characters couldn't better fulfill imo.
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@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I would kill to see that again.
But I think Oda is too dedicated to Luffy (to a fault?) at this time to try that again.
I miss Luffyless One Piece.
I thought so. It's that no matter how hard I try to repress it, I can't help but retain a flimsy hope that Elbaff can be a bona fide Usopp arc, and if there is even a little chance at that I wouldn't want Nika bouncing around cannibalising all the spotlight, as he does... Oh well.
Thank you for you answer!!
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In the first 10 years, Oda spent plenty of time away from Luffy and Luffy's victories (small and large) were all the better for it.
I get it. He has confidence in his lead. For good reason too.
But Luffy coming back in Alabasta was absolutely brilliant.
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One or two chapters of Luffy staying dead, would have made Wano's ending so much better. But lets hope the anime spends some time away, so the dread can really sink in.
I think I'm optimistic in that regard, Oda will pull away from Luffy if it's necessary, even though most of the time its for flashbacks, but still that helps to build the world and its history.
Though I would love if Oda focuses a bit more on the crew and the side characters of the arc. Atm Egghead feels kinda bland, we haven't seen much of the town folks yet. Oda usually starts with that, but for some reason he didn't do that with Egghead, this kinda makes me wonder, what's really going on with the island. -
@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
But Luffy coming back in Alabasta was absolutely brilliant.
That and Luffy coming back to confront Enel for the first time after the Survival Games ended. To me that was always mastercraft storytelling. Keep the hero away while focusing on the others in an entertaing way. Helps with both enjoying the remaining cast while building up the desire for the hero to come back. Pre Marineford One Piece was the best.
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The big colorful cast manga devolving into the solo hero show seems to happen a lot. Is it like a Japanese story telling trope? Or is it just what their domestic audience pays the most attention to?
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@Seafarer33 said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Daz completely agreed. As many problems with Wano, it always comes to the same conclusion: the arc lacked an extra 5-10 chapters to expand Kaido's flashbacks (plural) and the epilogue. So many rushed plots, or threads that were left hanging, or ignored entirely, could have been settled in a more satisfying manner, it would have avoided the bitter aftertaste.
Tbf I think that explains the problems in almost every post-TS arc. They needed more chapters to flesh something out. Because while the arcs are long, they also have a hundred characters each, so they needed to be even longer to properly tell their stories. Because Oda doesn't want the manga to last 40 years, he started to rush arcs a while ago (I think WCI and Wano are the ones that have been rushed the most).
The sin is at the source, and it's the number of characters in each arc. But Oda can't help himself, he likes to create. It's the same problem with A Song of Ice and Fire, except the later doesn't do the rushing, so it's actaully become a work of fiction that cannot end. While OP will end, but with hiccups and imperfect plots along the way. Perfect OP only exists in a world where Oda actually extends this manga another 5-10 years and risks dying for it, which I don't think he wants to do (and I totally support that).
@TLC said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Yamato's character was a complete betrayal of everything the series once stood for and it's what finally broke me of any hope and optimism I once had for the story. It's what opened my eyes and made me see how burnt out Oda is and how incapable he has become of steering this massive ship he's created. This isn't me just being salty, regardless of how you feel about the character, whether you loved or hated him, it all comes down to a simple fact. A character gave up their dream to explore the world. Yamato spent a decade on that island, starving and freezing and being tortured. It is nothing but a stew of bad memories and trauma, people he cared about died trying to protect him. He was always trying to run away and explore the world so he could finally be free and emulate his idol. But when the time came to leave, Yamato was not allowed to by the flimsiest of writing excuses.
I feel ya, but I absorbed the Yamato hype in a completely different way. The "explore the world" dream never had me convinced. It was just too undercooked. None of the strawhats wanted something just because "their mentor did too", there was always some emotional connection to it. And everything about Yamato felt half baked. There was no conflict, the flashback was short, the interactions with Luffy were insufficient. Yamato felt like someone's fanfiction of a new strawhat. Looks cool, has cool powers, says they want to joiun, but where is the substance? Where is the drama, the "say you wanna live", the "I'm so happy for being alive", the "Help me, Luffy"?
So my initial reaction of Yamato was thinking he was super cool, definitely a top candidate. Then the arc moved along and I keep waiting for that amazing character arc, and it never came. Instead, Momo was the one getting all the characterization. And people in the forum became more convinced Yamato was joinging, but meanwhile I was like "no, this doesn't make sense, where is the arc? where is the conflict? where is the emotion?" And when Yamato finally announced he was staying, I felt relieved. Not satisfied though, because I agree you the whole structure of Yamato's plot was just not great. Yamato was removed from the crew through a cop out. But he was never properly added to the crew either. He was never a protagonist of his own arc, someone really emotionally involved in it.
Again, it was Momo. He was the star, which is why he got a big scene talking about how he became a great king. Momo was the only character in Wano who got enough characterization to be allowed to join the main cast. He did not, because his arc demanded him to do something other than that. Which means Oda just never thought of adding a new strawhat in Wano at all.
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@wolfwood said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
The big colorful cast manga devolving into the solo hero show seems to happen a lot. Is it like a Japanese story telling trope? Or is it just what their domestic audience pays the most attention to?
As far as my personal experience here is concerned, both kids and young adults seem to like side characters a lot. Like not just in One Piece but with every series that is the current hot thing.
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Nefertari in JP printing. (yourewelcome)
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Greg not sure if you can answer this but how long do you think we’ll have to wait until the hidden threat reveals themselves this arc?
Also with how Bonney had to stop seeing Kuma’s flashback because of the pain do you think we’ll get the whole thing in snippets like Kyros flash back or all at once the next time she tries?
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@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Where is the drama, the "say you wanna live", the "I'm so happy for being alive", the "Help me, Luffy"?
Robin didn't get that moment or her proper flashback until 300 chapters after she first appeared. And Nami's took 90 chapters and five arcs back when arcs were still 10 chapters.. And while we have Brook's Laboon thing, we 15 years later we still know NOTHING about his life before that even though its implied that he has an important soldier history. And Luffy had a new backstory 500 chapters later and Sanji turned out to have a whole second backstory 800 chapters later.
And Jinbe STILL hasn't gotten his flashback defining moment (when did he get the scar?) or dream beyond "I want to travel with Luffy". Its implied "solve all race relations" but... and Usopp's dramatic flashback and motivation was exactly two panels.
It was perfectly fair to expect Oda to deliver follow up and the real emotional whammy for the character when he got to the climax of the arc, or a few arcs later, something he's done consistently at the end of every single arc for decades, where a new character detail would suddenly reshape how we understood the entire arc and really root for the villain to fall. ANd when he presented us with new character that "really really wants to join" that had three mini-flashbacks along the way... of course we were expecting that last push. Especially since Kaidou has a big "I was betrayed" gap in his backstory and... the entirety of Yamato's existence. Who is the mother?
Yeah there's a chance we still get all of that later when we get more stuff on Rocks, the sae way we got a little more of Arlong at Fishman Island, but it doesn't help Wano or the the climax catharsis it needed."He hasn't gotten to that emotional payoff YET" was a legit expectation with both Kaidou and Yamato, since all the pieces and hints were there. The payoff... was not.
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Nah, after deliberate red-herring with Yamato I'm not touching next nakama speculation ever again. There's a difference between "I think this character is joining and I like them" and "This character's explicit dream is X... and they're the first hero character in the series that doesn't get to do their dream because of obligations they never asked for." It's just... ick.
Even if Yamato gets to join in the epilogue or whatever, its just not the same.
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@Greg I just thought I remember you saying there was another threat on the island we didn't know about yet and not just CP0 and the Marines that were coming for them
but something else lurking that we hadn't seen yet
that the true villain of this arc hadn't ben revealed yet
could be wrong, I might be miss remembering
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I wonder if Oda has read Pluto, by Urasawa, or maybe even the original Strongest Robot in the World arc of Astro Boy.
I guess its easy for any story with robots made in Japan to get a bit of Astro Boy on it but it would be cool to know some of these references are direct or if its just a cultural thing.
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Oh, I said I believed that something being held somewhere in a facility could be a threat and that it could be a member of Rocks.
Turned out that a Rocks member is playing a role....in a manner of speaking (^○^)
Do I believe there's still a chaotic element that could be released from somewhere in the towers? Yes, absolutely.
Although, I will say with Kizaru approaching that probability is lower.
Lower, but not gone.
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@Greg I know you said you didn’t think it would happen but I’m still wishing that Oda goes all in on the Rocks Clones and has that as the lurking legend turn out to be Vegapunk bringing back the Rocks Pirates at there prime through making clones of them, like Bakkin
I assume the superior clones have to age naturally, which is why the Serephim are children and Stussy is in her prime because the clone was made 30 years ago when she was in her 30’s
So all the super powerful Rocks Pirates who disbanded 30 years ago who would be past there prime in there 60’s, will now have clones all in there 30’s
Again it probably won’t happen but it would be cool
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Hey @Greg what are you thoughts on the role of the marine in Egghead?
I feel Kizaru is too disconnected from what currently going on to play a real antagonistic role. And It'd be kind of a waste if he comes at the end just to get his ass kicked.
Tbh I'm still not sure what kind of arc Egghead is supposed to be. -
Why is people still defending Yamato NOT joining the straw hats? I thought it was clear that it was a very business-like reason and that Oda simply don't want more work.
And I thought there was this entire speculation that having another straw hat would mean a lot of cost for the merchandise side of things + the entire media monster that One Piece is.No matter how you cut it, Yamato not joining is terrible writing and Oda has lost control and seemingly his love for good writing in the later half of Wano. I'll even add that he's more concerned about One Piece as a brand more than he cares about the quality of writing nowadays. The plot for OP is never going to be a classic to rely on for consistent good writing, not now and never in the future. Maybe in the past, yes. For worldbuilding and character writing how-to, probably. But give it enough years and even that excellent record is showing cracks.
Honestly, the last chapter of Wano was one of the worst and if that was not a foreshadow (heh) of how Oda is not going to deliver the final arc, I'm not sure what is.
Hey, I'm sure it will still be good because you'll get excited and in glee because X character shows up during X moment and he'll rinse that a few time along with some worldbuilding twists, but as a whole his track record of managing multiple plotlines suck ass.Oh right, Yamato. Yeah, that was whatever. Honestly I don't even find the energy in me to care after that level of disappointment. I don't even make an attempt to be disinterested in the plot nowadays, I just am. Why do I have to bother about the characters when the author isn't even invested in them and make them either tropes, plot devices, or just another checklist to tick off. Did everyone forgot how Shanks and Green Bull encounter was actually stupid? Or how Carrot was handled, so, so terribly. Oh god, I'm getting flashbacks. I'll stop now.
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@zeltrax225 Yamato was never meant to join the crew. The execution was terrible but it is what it is.
I'm also glad she never joined one of the worst one peice characters wano would have been better if she didn't exist
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Yeah you do sort of get the feeling that the specific ending Oda had in mind would've been easier to pull before the massive bloat set in. Doing a 5 year ending in what ends up as a 30 year series is bound to cause problems. Like putting on your cheap graduation suit when you are a paunchy 35 year old instead of a teen.
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@Sun-D Surprisingly I actually agree that Wano would have been better had Yamato not exist. But I'm not debating here about how good or bad or charming Yamato is as a character but how Oda has consistently wrote and framed it like Yamato was going to join. You can hate or love Yamato, I don't really care. But there's no ground to really stand on that he did not deliberately painted Yamato in the light of a next crew mate and he knows it. I'm glad you agree that the execution was terrible so I'm not exactly sure what your point is except it is what it is and then I'll agree again, because I can only enjoy the ride because I've lowered my standards enough.
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@zeltrax225 said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I thought it was clear that it was a very business-like reason and that Oda simply don't want more work.
You really think this was clear as opposed to, ya know, just your opinion?
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Could be a George Lucas situation?
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@zeltrax225 said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Why is people still defending Yamato NOT joining the straw hats? I thought it was clear that it was a very business-like reason and that Oda simply don't want more work.
And I thought there was this entire speculation that having another straw hat would mean a lot of cost for the merchandise side of things + the entire media monster that One Piece is.what the fuck you waffling about bro
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I don't think Oda handled Yamato well, but the potential of The Oni Princess is obvious to me. I just don't think Oda hit the mark on his overall characterization and narrative goals with him. I can see what he was going for, but I don't think he nailed it. The only aspect he "seemingly" nailed was the desire to sail to sea, which I firmly believe was always a red herring of sorts (at least towards joining the crew after Wano), which the reveal of flattened the character. I wish Oda had leaned more into the idea of an Oni princess and actually revealed something about Oni at large instead of putting it off or never developing at all, which could also be the case.
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Let's be real, "desire to join the sea" is about the most basic dream a crewmember candidate can have.
@Robby said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Where is the drama, the "say you wanna live", the "I'm so happy for being alive", the "Help me, Luffy"?
Robin didn't get that moment or her proper flashback until 300 chapters after she first appeared. And Nami's took 90 chapters and five arcs back when arcs were still 10 chapters.. And while we have Brook's Laboon thing, we 15 years later we still know NOTHING about his life before that even though its implied that he has an important soldier history. And Luffy had a new backstory 500 chapters later and Sanji turned out to have a whole second backstory 800 chapters later.
And Jinbe STILL hasn't gotten his flashback defining moment (when did he get the scar?) or dream beyond "I want to travel with Luffy". Its implied "solve all race relations" but... and Usopp's dramatic flashback and motivation was exactly two panels.
It was perfectly fair to expect Oda to deliver follow up and the real emotional whammy for the character when he got to the climax of the arc, or a few arcs later, something he's done consistently at the end of every single arc for decades, where a new character detail would suddenly reshape how we understood the entire arc and really root for the villain to fall. ANd when he presented us with new character that "really really wants to join" that had three mini-flashbacks along the way... of course we were expecting that last push. Especially since Kaidou has a big "I was betrayed" gap in his backstory and... the entirety of Yamato's existence. Who is the mother?
Yeah there's a chance we still get all of that later when we get more stuff on Rocks, the sae way we got a little more of Arlong at Fishman Island, but it doesn't help Wano or the the climax catharsis it needed."He hasn't gotten to that emotional payoff YET" was a legit expectation with both Kaidou and Yamato, since all the pieces and hints were there. The payoff... was not.
Nami and Robin were different. They were deliberately not given any clarification on their conflict or motivations when they first joined, because Oda was setting up a "leave then come back as a real SH" moment later on.
This was not the case with Yamato. We saw his motivations and past pretty clearly. They were just inferior, writing-wise what every other protagonist in the story has gotten. Yanato got the most basic dream, no conflict to speak of, no development during the Wano arc, and even his flashback was underwhelming. By the time the arc was ending, he had "side character" written all over him.
Brook got a much better character arc. The fact we did not witness his entire life is irrelevant. We got the part that matters the most to him. Sanji also got a much better arc, and the fact it was elevated later doesn't change it.
Jinbe is a weird one because I agree his dream is kind of understated. The thing is that Jinbe as a character is soneone who inherited the dreams and motivations of multiple characters, particularly Otohime and Fisher Tiger. He is a product of the whole Fishman Island conflict, in which he is more of a bystander for most of it. But he still got a piece of personal conflict (wanting Luffy to fix the island the right way), a bond with the MC and a conclusion to his arc that cemented his SH joining (the blood giving scene). Which are more than Yamato got. And personally, I think the Fishman Island flashback sequence blows Yamato's flashback out of the water (or Oden's for that matter). I don't think Jinbe is one of the better SHs in terms of arc, but he's still miles better than Yamato in that regard.
I reject the idea that Oda decided not to have Yamato join at the last minute. I think Yamato was just never intended to be a strawhat. Oda did write his arc poorly, but it was a side character's arc from the start.
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@zeltrax225 said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I thought it was clear that it was a very business-like reason and that Oda simply don't want more work.
Source needed.
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@zeltrax225 said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
And I thought there was this entire speculation that having another straw hat would mean a lot of cost for the merchandise side of things + the entire media monster that One Piece is.
Another strawhat would be the very opposite of that. If it was up to the merchandise people there would be 15 strawhats by now There were already Yamato towels in existence because the idea of a Strawhat sells.
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@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Nami and Robin were different. They were deliberately not given any clarification on their conflict or motivations when they first joined, because Oda was setting up a "leave then come back as a real SH" moment later on.
Yeah, hindsight makes that clear with Robin. Doesn't change the fact we knew very little about her or her motivations, and that her joining the crew was completely arbitrary and random for six or seven YEARS before we got to her backstory.
And again, we're STILL missing the entirety of Brook's actual backstory and a huge chunk of Jinbe's. I can't figure when those would come into play unless Brook's connected to a BB pirate.
And we thought we had everything pertinent about Luffy and Sanji until fourteen and nineteen YEARS after they first showed up. They already had great powerful backstories that said everything... we thought.
Oda plays the long game, absolutely. Such a long game that, once a character has literally declared they are joining the crew, it's perfectly reasonable at this point to expect "okay we're getting snippets here, and the juicy truly defining bit will be later."
Especially given the history of even minor characters getting emotional build up exposit dumps near the end of the arc. Skypeia, Fishman Island, Dreserossa, Cakeland all being keen examples of later flashback reveals turning earlier incidents on their head.
We saw his motivations and past pretty clearly. They were just inferior, writing-wise what every other protagonist in the story has gotten.
Usopp's motivation and past was literally two panels. "My dad was a pirate and I told my mom lies about coming home." followed by "yeah I guess it'd be fun to travel with you guys."
He didn't decide his goal or dream until well into the journey and is still by far the weakest backstory of the series. Shushu the dog has a better more moving story.
Jinbei we have insight to the racism he's seen and can infer that he wants to bring an end to racism somehow, but still haven't gotten any sort of actual dream, goal or motivation from him besides "I want to travel with Luffy."
Yes, now that Wano is done and Oda rushed and botched the ending, we can say "Yeah Yamato's payoff sucked." But given the series' track record, there was plenty of reason to think there was more to come.
(And I feel even worse for Carrot fans.)
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Or it would undermine the entire logistics and merchandising that has already established the completed straw hat crew, requiring rollbacks and callbacks, along with changes to the original publishing/printing for the various media outlets that One Piece is in. In before I reach for the "trust me, bro" as a defense but I do have some knowledge and experience in marketing and merchandising as part of my job. Now I would have to go on another tirade on how that would work, but lets say for instance: You have a new Disney movie coming out, your goods and everything is set to ship and produced to meet the calendar year but some guy in the writing room decided, hey maybe the main character should be a rabbit instead of a dog. Oh, I'm sure for a corporation as large as Disney, we can change everything we've done in less than a week and absorb the loss from that. No problem, because obviously, the integrity of the story is more important the thousands and millions of money that goes into production and the effort of many people. Except that's not how it works.
By the way, that's only production and merch, for marketing that's another billion, millions, if we are lucky, considering the growth of the industry. And no, it's not just "hey lets remove this poster and put up another one!".When what you produce is bigger than you, you don't necessarily get to act without first thinking of everyone else riding on your brand.
One Piece as a franchise has literally bronze statues in Japan. That's close enough to the Rocky worship in the States. The last time an "abrupt" addition was Brook and that was a period where One Piece was still up and rising before it got as big as it is today. Jinbei took 3-5 whole years before he was established as a crewmate, allowing for companies and marketing to work him into the franchise.
"B-But what about Franky and Brook?!, they joined randomly!!". That was pre-strong world, pre-marineford, pre-hey look everyone the internet sees how one piece is the next best thing (because their competitors were bad). Now, because the people jumping on me either rarely purchase one piece merch or is out of touch with the behemoth of that industry, in simple terms: it makes roughly around 50% of the total revenue that One Piece as a brand makes. So yes, any addition/subtraction/modification that will heavily impact merchandising DO incur or require significant effort that is considerably tougher than writing a character into the main cast just because on his whim, he decided to write someone he really likes.
Also, merch sales in 2008-2010s with Brook and Franky are NOWHERE near what it is today.To end off my post, yes this is "just your opinion, bro" but maybe, just maybe understand that the series goes beyond what you like or dislike and that if you actually cared enough about the franchise outside of circle-jerking your opinion, then maybe it is clear that there are powers outside of the writers control and that just maybe, coupled on other information that you can in a minute or so find on google, make an opinion on why things happen the way they do.
If you are still not convinced, then I recommend taking a look at the top grossing media franchise list that One Piece is on and I'm almost certain that most of them have an established cast that you can instantly recognize. I'm not saying that Yamato can't be one but for each of those franchise, to add a new character that will "cement on the viewers mind" takes a tremendous amount of money and effort. So yes, it can be done but when you are nearing the end of the series and the main cast of the straw hats have been established so well into the media, will the pros reallyoutweight the cons?
