let's fuck*ng hope not
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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Oh dear, do I even want to know what this is about?
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@Greg said in [Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !]
Luffy has 'tomodachi'. He's got 'nakama-in-waiting'. And of course 'nakama'.
Given both Vivre and Oda's refusal to add Yamato (or anyone) here, I wonder if any offboard members will be relegated to 'fighting together' in the final arc alongside 'tomodachi' and become 'onboard' post-series.
Greg, I've got a question about that. I've read somewhere that Oda has never had Luffy switch what term he uses for any character (this was a long while ago like during Dressrosa). He's either always called them a 'tomodachi' (friend) or a 'nakama' (comrade/crewmate). Is this true? Has no 'tomodachi' ever been 'upgraded' to 'nakama'?
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@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Also are you sneakily confirming that Carrot is joining by not including her amongst the offboard crew? Because it doesn't get more "want to explore with them and have fun" than stowing away on the Sunny to go on an adventure with the crew.
heh
Nah but part of me still wonders if Oda is gonna have her be hidden somewhere or catch up to join. This is not because I have a desire for her to join. I just think there was a logical argument for her to join based on Oda's own fancies and the proximity to the end.
Or she could go try to rule over Zou for now, hate the experience, then see Zou die in the final war and join the crew post-series.
I never felt like she was meant to be a nakama on the voyage to the One Piece but having her as part of a larger crew of the Pirate King feels natural.
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I think for the off-board crew idea it really does depend on intention. Kyros, Paulie and Kinemon - none of them have any desire to actually go and travel with the Straw Hars right now and are content with living on their islands.
An argument could be made for Momo but the story sems to imply that his first priority is to stay on Wano and be Shogun rather than go out to sea with Luffy. That's why he asks Luffy and co to stay on Wano rather than asking to go with them. This is different enough from Vivi who would love to continue travelling with the Straw Hats but knew that she had to stay behind and help look after her kingdom. She couldn't abandon the kingdom and so had to leave the crew. So she fits the off-board crew definition a it more (and I think other factors that only Vivi and Carue have, like actually being treated as crew members during the Baroque Works saga by both Oda, the anime and merch, work in their favour).
Yamato and Tama defo have off-crew status though. Both want to travel with Luffy, Luffy has accepted them both, ut both have some kind of issue preventing them from getting on the ship at this point in time (protecting Wano and training). They'll almost certainly join post-series but for now, they are almost certainly 'off-board' crew members.
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@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
This deserves a longer answer but for now, they can make up any kind of BS rule they want to to get around the numbering. As fans we tend to think there are in-stone rules (and yeah there are some, but not usually to this end) and that stuff like Vivre Cards are infallible but in the end, they can be handled the same way as 'super floaty wood'.
Given what happened at Wano though? Iunno, I get the feeling Oda really just wants to run with THIS onboard crew for the series.
The whole concept of crew though....I mean damn.
Luffy has 'tomodachi'. He's got 'nakama-in-waiting'. And of course 'nakama'.
Given both Vivre and Oda's refusal to add Yamato (or anyone) here, I wonder if any offboard members will be relegated to 'fighting together' in the final arc alongside 'tomodachi' and become 'onboard' post-series.
......!
o.0 !!!!!
...Wakarimashita. Arigatou Gozaimasu.
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@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:'m still not buying the entire onboard/offboard crew thing.
I think Greg making that distinction is just him being agreeable. The Strawhats have very few Nakama, tons of tomodachi, so that level inbetween (offboard crew) is made just to anoint various characters who are beyond the standard friends we get every arc.
Another way to put it would be to call them "Tomodachi Level 2" or something.
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Greg are there any devil fruits you think are not safe from the Black Beard Pirates
Devil Fruits we as readers have seen that there sure to go after?
Can you tell us a few if there are?
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@Shin10-Bukuro said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
'm still not buying the entire onboard/offboard crew thing.
I think Greg making that distinction is just him being agreeable. The Strawhats have very few Nakama, tons of tomodachi, so that level inbetween (offboard crew) is made just to anoint various characters who are beyond the standard friends we get every arc.
Another way to put it would be to call them "Tomodachi Level 2" or something.
Oh, I wasn't critisizing Greg by that statement. I pretty much share your sentiment. I was mainly trying to say that if the production team creates abides by such terms, especially when creating merch, then I'm just having a problem with the necessity for an offboard crew.
As I said in my previous post, outside of the OP fandom, here in Japan the casual audience, that get's commercials, light and fountain shows, whatnot thrown at them, only can make sense of the main crew. Guys like Vivi and Yamato would only have an effect on people who follow(ed) the story at least a little.
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To me concerning Yamato, it felt like Oda at the last moment got cold feet and changed his mind about Yamato joining the crew? Which is fine btw.
I've studied a lot of authors that do big time series, and there are times when they are planning on a character doing something, and when they get to that moment, they realize that the character wouldn't do the thing the way it was initially planned.
I really never had a preference with Yamato, as long as Jinbei was in the crew, I don't care who or who doesn't join.
I'm really interested in the story moving forward, the first time since Punk Hazard, that there isn't really a "plan" for the next adventure. We still need to find the location of the final Road Poneglyph. I'm really hoping that it doesn't just happen to be at the next island? LoL.
I'm really wondering if Vivi's status will make the Straw Hats act? And with the new Pacifista's, does this mean that all the Kuma versions are clones of Kuma that have been cyborged up? And does that mean, that there is maybe a conscience in there? It's actually super dark stuff lol.
And I loved Rayleigh coming in like a boss, wish we'd gotten his old/current bounty? But I really love that Oda is staying true to Blackbeard's character, that he's slightly a cowered, it still makes me wonder if Teach is actually a D, or just says that, because he was inspired by someone? Or a story?
Also very happy that Koby did not defeat Boa, like a lot of people thought he would.
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@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
So having an offboard crew would surely have a lot less mass appeal because those characters don't really ring a bell for people who are not following the manga/anime. If you'd for example see Yamato with the crew, somebody would say "oh, I guess this character is part of the crew now". But having her or Vivi be offboard crew members just means nothing.
Heh. Yes. Exactly.
Oda doesn't want people to know them. I realized this a few years back and I mentioned it....somewhere (probably here?) That Oda realizes putting the crew....AS THE CREW....ruins story beats.
When you see the Strawhats in an ad, it ruins the fact that they joined as a surprise in the story and when possible Oda tries to avoid ruining the story via promotional material.This doesn't always work out (see Robin in anime intro) but he tries to make it work.
See the design of Franky and Robin post-skip. Both of them are almost surgically-design to preserve the identities of pre-skip Robin and Franky so non-readers won't know they're part of the crew.
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I would agree with the Yamato stuff being last minute if Oda didn't stuff Momo down his shirt and continue the retainer meme for most of Yamato's panel time.
Finally found a boat to get Momo out of there, then nope, Kaido is lifting Onigashima.
Finally got rid of Momo to fight Kaido, then right back to teaching him more about flame cloud.
Transformed into his beast mode to hurry and deal with the explosives, aaaah, there goes Momo again for them to interact.All while skipping out on Franky, Sanji, Robin and Brook. I should have listened to Kaido. Yamato is Oden, with the Wano guardian deity DF, protector of Momo, and spent at least 10 days with the Cave Daimyo Trio.
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The many idiosyncrasies of Oda
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Robin didn't deserved that, Oda. You shall pay for your crimes! Drawing her nose bigger is just the beginning of this redemption battle!!!
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@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
So having an offboard crew would surely have a lot less mass appeal because those characters don't really ring a bell for people who are not following the manga/anime. If you'd for example see Yamato with the crew, somebody would say "oh, I guess this character is part of the crew now". But having her or Vivi be offboard crew members just means nothing.
Heh. Yes. Exactly.
Oda doesn't want people to know them. I realized this a few years back and I mentioned it....somewhere (probably here?) That Oda realizes putting the crew....AS THE CREW....ruins story beats.
When you see the Strawhats in an ad, it ruins the fact that they joined as a surprise in the story and when possible Oda tries to avoid ruining the story via promotional material.This doesn't always work out (see Robin in anime intro) but he tries to make it work.
The question at this point is though what the point of an "offboard crew" is if it's only in the production teams head. If it never reaches the general audience it makes no difference if someone is offboar crew or not a Strawhat in the first place. The way I see it as far as the general audience is concerned, there's the Strawhats and then there's everyone else.
See the design of Franky and Robin post-skip. Both of them are almost surgically-design to preserve the identities of pre-skip Robin and Franky so non-readers won't know they're part of the crew.
Really? I could see how someone make an argument for Franky but how is Robin's slightly different facial features that much different from how any of the Strawhat's have changed over time with Oda's drawing style evolving.
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@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Really? I could see how someone make an argument for Franky but how is Robin's slightly different facial features that much different from how any of the Strawhat's have changed over time with Oda's drawing style evolving.
Iono Robin’s bangs were iconic pre timeskip and I’m bummed they are gone. I don’t think anyone else rocked those bangs. And in a world where a fair amount of Oda’s female characters only have subtle differences anyways I’d say even the small changes make the difference in this case.
Originally Posted by Nightwing
Stay focused, cause right now you have a decision to make. Are you a man perpetually looking back at what he’s lost, or a man looking forward, to what he might become?
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@Gizmo said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Really? I could see how someone make an argument for Franky but how is Robin's slightly different facial features that much different from how any of the Strawhat's have changed over time with Oda's drawing style evolving.
Iono Robin’s bangs were iconic pre timeskip and I’m bummed they are gone. I don’t think anyone else rocked those bangs. And in a world where a fair amount of Oda’s female characters only have subtle differences anyways I’d say even the small changes make the difference in this case.
I never said I didn't prefer her previous style. I just don't see that much of a difference that you couldn't tell that it's her at first sight.
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@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Gizmo said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Really? I could see how someone make an argument for Franky but how is Robin's slightly different facial features that much different from how any of the Strawhat's have changed over time with Oda's drawing style evolving.
Iono Robin’s bangs were iconic pre timeskip and I’m bummed they are gone. I don’t think anyone else rocked those bangs. And in a world where a fair amount of Oda’s female characters only have subtle differences anyways I’d say even the small changes make the difference in this case.
I never said I didn't prefer her previous style. I just don't see that much of a difference that you couldn't tell that it's her at first sight.
I’m not just mourning her old look I’m saying the bangs were iconic enough that removing them post timeskip could be considered a significant change from pre timeskip to be that different given Oda’s different female designs.
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I've never understood the lack of business sense people have when talking about predictions for this series.
Oda cannot have a new character join so late in the series because said character will then be shown on manga boxsets, promotional material, t-shirts, mugs, video game commercials, etc...They're a member of the main cast after all.
This is one of a few reasons why I've determined the final Nakama, if there is one, will more than likely be established earlier on in the series.
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Lol I find it funny that I've wanted Oda to actually have character deaths in the series for the longest time, and he finally decides to start killing off characters, and he kills Hawkings and X Drake, who I really would have loved to seen more of, as the worst generation, I guess the moral of the story is be careful what you wish for lol
I'm fine with all the other deaths though
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I thought only Hawkins died, damn rip Drake
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Maybe he's still alive, but we haven't seen anything after him and Hawkings were on the ground bleeding to death, so I just assumed
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Eh, Drake too? I thought he was alive.
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I didn't get the impression that Drake died. Only Hawkins.
I imagine we will see him again when it's time to deal with Koby's dilemma.
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Imagine surviving death just to hear Koby was kidnapped. I would quit the Marines for real. The WG couldn't send help, but Cipher Pol can come around messing with me. They knew I was on the WG's side and still thought I should die. I had to fight Pacifista in Sabaody. Is this SWORD gig worth it? Not to mention there's bounties on Marines now and big mouth Apoo know i'm a Marine.
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Ivotas
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Reason for offboard crew. They're awesome characters that Oda and the audience grew to love more than expected that earned a place in the crew but Oda is only telling the story of this central crew now. Thought he might have grown beyond that limit but guess he ＲＥＡＬＬＹ just wanted to focus on this crew for now.
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Diff. b/w old/new Robin.
You're coming at it as someone who knows these characters religiously. Not a casual who has seen the pictures but doesn't know names, powers, roles, relations, or backstory without so much as even being able to accurately recall the crew groupshots.
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I know we are mega nerds and all, but sometimes when i read the rationalizations/explanations about stuff like this it comes across like the general Japanese manga reader has the attention span of goldfish. Must be a hard market to write for if such small things could confuse and bewilder them, seems much more hamstrung than writing, i dunno, spiderman or whatever for a western audience
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@Greg your opinion about Caribou please
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@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Ivotas
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Reason for offboard crew. They're awesome characters that Oda and the audience grew to love more than expected that earned a place in the crew but Oda is only telling the story of this central crew now. Thought he might have grown beyond that limit but guess he ＲＥＡＬＬＹ just wanted to focus on this crew for now.
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Diff. b/w old/new Robin.
You're coming at it as someone who knows these characters religiously. Not a casual who has seen the pictures but doesn't know names, powers, roles, relations, or backstory without so much as even being able to accurately recall the crew groupshots.
Actually I was doing the opposite. I was saying that to a casual audience which doesn't know the characters like us, anybody besides the "onboard crew" will not be considered the main cast. So if we're talking considerations for people who have a superficial knowledge at best by watching ads and merch, then I wonder what the point of an offboard crew is in the first place. They will not be following the story in the first place so everyone besides the Strawhats is kinda in the same boat for such an audience.
I'd understand it if an offboard crew is something for Oda and the production team to lump in characters that they consider special. But if it's something that involves consideration for merch and the like then I don't see a point at all because not only will the lesser informed audience not know about the character as I've said, there hasn't been any merch of an "offboard crew" anyways in the first place.
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Wolfwood,
Pretty much. Average 'tachiyomi' readers spend roughly 3 seconds on a page.
Ivotas,
My comment is in reference to your comment about Robin's features:
"Really? I could see how someone make an argument for Franky but how is Robin's slightly different facial features that much different from how any of the Strawhat's have changed over time with Oda's drawing style evolving."
Not about onboard/offboard.
As for Caribou, he's a useful information mule whom Oda can use/abuse/lose as he likes to logically get info from point A to point B.
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Count me as someone who doesn't believe Hawkins or Drake are dead.
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@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
See the design of Franky and Robin post-skip. Both of them are almost surgically-design to preserve the identities of pre-skip Robin and Franky so non-readers won't know they're part of the crew.
Confirmed to work. I jump-started a friend a while back with Episode of East Blue, and then randomly watched the scene where Sanji was screaming for Robin in Wano. He's aware of a "Robin" and even saw her for a few mins in Strong World where it was still pre-skip. We're currently at the part where Ace meets the crew in Alabasta and he seemingly hasn't reacted to or recognized Miss All Sunday at all yet... -
@Ivotas said in [
The question at this point is though what the point of an "offboard crew" is if it's only in the production teams head. If it never reaches the general audience it makes no difference if someone is offboar crew or not a Strawhat in the first place. The way I see it as far as the general audience is concerned, there's the Strawhats and then there's everyone else.
The franchise is going to continue after the manga is done and Oda has run out of juice. Barring a "Luffy dies" ending there's going to be movies and tie in novels and figures and One Piece GT/Super that keep showing the characters for decades to come after the fact and they'll be more than willing to have other characters to play with that Oda just doesn't have the time or energy to juggle right now in the home stretch.
They've already shown they're also willing to just do straight up remixes of old content. Movie 8 was Chopper's introduction all over again but it had Robin and Franky and Sunny in it.
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@wolfwood said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I know we are mega nerds and all, but sometimes when i read the rationalizations/explanations about stuff like this it comes across like the general Japanese manga reader has the attention span of goldfish.
Nah, it tracks. II watched all of original Yugioh and apparently the Dice guy is an official member of the main cast but I'd swear he's just a filler character and I can't remember his name. I know he was in the manga and actually in the final arc but I really have to struggle to remember who... Duke Devlin is.
And he was in like 150 episodes!
Even weirder that Mai wasn't a main character, the anime just put her in all of the filler so it seemed like it.
And this is a show I actually watched! And relived through an abridged series for years!
If its something you just vaguely know about?
Must be a hard market to write for if such small things could confuse and bewilder them, seems much more hamstrung than writing, i dunno, spiderman or whatever for a western audience
The trick with Spiderman is he gets CONSTANT exposure and his main most well known villains like Doc Ock and Sandman and Green Goblin everyone is going to know. But B tier characters like Rhino and Scorpion and Shocker, they're not going to be as recognizable. And then once you get into Hydro Man and Hammerhead and Jackal... just not happening.
Thanks to the movies everyone knows Mary Jane, and now Gwen. But most casual audiences would be a lot harder pressed to identify Betty Brant or Liz Allen or Felicia Hardy.... and no one except a hardcore nerd is going to know who Cissy Ironwood is, and I personally couldn't tell you the names of any of the dozen women he's dated in the last decade because I haven't read the books in a decade.
And I'm a big comics nerd!.
There's absolutely different levels of recognition and marketability of characters regardless of how long they're in a story or how important they are.
"I recognize the first five or six One Piece characters that have been constantly advertised for decades but the others are a little fuzzier" makes a lot of sense to me.
This is also probably why Dragonball transformations since Super have all just been super boring hair color swaps instead of anything actually interesting.
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@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Robby Sure, that's a good point. But I'm talking about the use of that term while the actual series is still going on.
While the series is still going there is still ongoing anime and movies and tie ins.
Like the last three movies had all the characters in the top 20 polls regardless if it made sense for them to be there or now. and all the supernovas.
That'll just be even MORE the case when the series is done and the limiters are off entirely.
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@Robby said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Robby Sure, that's a good point. But I'm talking about the use of that term while the actual series is still going on.
While the series is still going there is still ongoing anime and movies and tie ins.
Like the last three movies had all the characters in the top 20 polls regardless if it made sense for them to be there or now. and all the supernovas.
That'll just be even MORE the case when the series is done and the limiters are off entirely.
But still the casual audience here in Japan, that has merch and ads aimed at them will only make sense of who the guys are riding the Luffy's ship. It's hard to explain this if you actually don't witness how it's presented here in Japan.
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Greg do you think Kuma might get a new body at some point? It just feels weird to have a main character who has hundreds of identical knock off clones
Clones which I might add can be one shotted by the majority of characters, I mean imagine if Darth Vader and Kyle Ren wore the same suits as the Storm Troopers, wouldn’t really work would it
Am I crazy here
maybe I’m not explaining this right
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@Greg, the reaction of the Gorosei reminded me of the Ohara incident back then, do you think the same?
->"Necessarily evil"?
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@Greg Now that it seems like the WG has cloning technology at their disposal? Do you think Oda would go the route of the WG cloning someone from the 3 Eyed Tribe, therefore possibly giving them a way to translate the ancient language?
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@Ivotas this would be great, that way we don’t need an arc to have both Kuma’s body and Vegapunk at the same island at the same time
Would make things a lot quicker
If so I wonder what his new body will look like, will he find a way to get his paw paw fruit back, and what will he do with his life from there on
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Re Kuma etc. I'm gonna have to plead the fifth for the time being. One Piece is cool, etc.
Scabbard, Gorousei have and always will hit me (until proven otherwise) as grizzled people who know their shit, HATE what they do, and believe that the best chance for humanity lies in supporting the whims of Im.
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I just checked, and we recently passed the point (chapter 1056) where the total amount of chapters since Jinbe first appeared has been longer than the amount of chapters that came before it.
As much as Jinbe may have joined late, Oda cared to introduce him much earlier and give him an important role in most subsequent arcs.
The same could not be said for any strawhat that joined now, or even during Wano.
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Although that's definitely a fact on paper, it doesn't necessarily carry any weight with respect to intention as the elongation of his joining was mostly:
- A snarky whim on Oda's part.
- A result of the story becoming progressively longer than intended.
I can't say it's meaningless, but it's not part of an intentional plan. It's just Oda helping his characters fit into the larger story.
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@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Although that's definitely a fact on paper, it doesn't necessarily carry any weight with respect to intention as the elongation of his joining was mostly:
- A snarky whim on Oda's part.
- A result of the story becoming progressively longer than intended.
I can't say it's meaningless, but it's not part of an intentional plan. It's just Oda helping his characters fit into the larger story.
Wait what really? I just said a few weeks ago that I always felt like the fishman helsman was supposed to be somebody completely different and that Jinbei was originally planning to be an antagonist. What you just said kinda would fit into that.
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Greg… what do YOU think Luffy wants to buy with the One Piece treasure?
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I see. I guess I got that wrong then.
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I think the confusion is because Jinbe and the fishman helmsman (named "Saigo" in some revealed early notes/sketches) were two distinct characters, and at some point both were fused into one.
But there always was the plan for the helmsman, no matter what he was called. He became Jinbe pretty early in the planning, thought I guess Oda kept tinkering details until his real debut in the story.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
