At least finish the volume and if you don't like it then don't read the next and leave it at that.
Okay, 5 more chapters is fair
At least finish the volume and if you don't like it then don't read the next and leave it at that.
Okay, 5 more chapters is fair
Why the fuck would anyone care at all about someone else's manga preferences?
And for that matter demand an explanation from them?
What the shit?
Still not feeling it. Read up to ch 10 this time. Honiden's mother was funny tho. Doubt she's in it a lot, so nope. The highly ambitious friend and the friend in his shadow shtick. Nah, not for me just the same as some years ago, but with an entertaining n bitter mother
I think you just want me to talk about how bad it is. I don't get why. It's not that big of a deal. Some things are trash and some aren't. Every writer can't be Oda. Vagabond doesn't need me to be a fan.
You should read the book Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa that Vagabond is based on. It's a great epic, much better then the manga.
I did say "it was bad" and that is because I read about 4 chapters. No hook or anything engaging. I can tell what the tone is going to be. I'm not 1 of those peopl that don't know their own taste and have to read 50 chapters b4 making judgement
So, it was bad and I definitely do have grounds to say what it is
Ah I get it, you're saying that Vagabond is bad at hooking you. Legitimate! The early chapters aren't particularly great and it does start very awkwardly, and abruptly.
Having actually read these chapters you certainly can say if they accomplish "starting the manga" well or not.
And I can forgive your incredibly wrong assessment that the tone of the manga is like the early chapters, after all that's part of a bad hook.
For my money the first two volumes are weak, mostly because Inoue clearly didn't know what he wanted to do in adapting the novel yet. Didn't yet know what he wanted to do for himself.
I didn't really start feeling hooked until Musashi first gets his ass totally and completely kicked. It was satisfying to see the snotty punk side of him just get buried and forced to evolve.
Keep in mind that Vagabond is basically on some level a sports manga. With a sport that involves horrible death and mutilation. Musashi doesn't even care about the sport until after Volume 2, just another reason the first two volumes are weak and confused.
Yea, the earlier parts of Vagabond are a bit like earlier parts of Berserk. It just takes time for the writers to find the right footing.
It's why I never understood why anyone would read a heavy character-driven narrative like Vagabond and not give it couple of volumes.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Why the fuck would anyone care at all about someone else's manga preferences?
And for that matter demand an explanation from them?
Ask yourself this; why did you seek out Apforums and create an account here?
The answer to that question is the answer to all your questions.
No I get people discussing things they like. What I don't get is people passive aggressively demanding explanations when other people don't like the things they like.
Still not feeling it. Read up to ch 10 this time. Honiden's mother was funny tho. Doubt she's in it a lot, so nope.
For the record, it took several attempts before I really got into Vagabond. The first was very early in its publication, I read a couple volumes and felt pretty much what you (and MonkeyKing) describe : gorgeous art, but there wasn't much else to keep me interested. It was only years later, after I'd read the novels, that I found it in me to persevere. I knew what I was coming back for and was curious of a different perspective on that story. This time, it really picked up after leaving behind the drunk-on-violence punk to focus on Musashi's path as a swordman. It can get pretty interesting if you're into the philosophy of martial arts and not just the act of violence, including a part where Musashi's growth stems from experiencing the everyday life of common folk - not unlike Vinland Saga's slavery arc. You may also find it boring as hell precisely because of that, I don't know.
Anyway if your thing is the One Piece or Fairy Tail brand of adventure, maybe Vagabond is simply not for you and I respect that.
Greg… I know you can't talk about it... But do you know something about Sanji's raid suit redesign?
Just yes or no
I think you just want me to talk about how bad it is. I don't get why. It's not that big of a deal. Some things are trash and some aren't. Every writer can't be Oda. Vagabond doesn't need me to be a fan.
To be honest, about One Piece and Oda. The guy is literally using the same formula of script for every arcs since East Blue, but people are calling it "good writing" somehow. You may disagree and say that it's a "good formula" just like the "marvel movies". But it doesn't change that it's repetitive as fuck. Also gets sometimes very boring.
I'm not saying OnePiece is bad. But definitely don't like this formula, personally.
The last time Oda tried something a bit crazy (for me), was with the "Zeff assassination threat". I was hyped as fuck. But Bigmom just completely happened to forget that after the WCI arc. I mean, the whole reason for this arc to happen. The whole reason why Sanji followed Bege to WCI and wanted to wed one of her daughters was because of that threat.
Zeff should have died, period. Or Bigmom should have been turned into an ally or something something whatever. But ignoring the threat as if it had never happened was defo the worst thing to do. It just showed that Oda had no idea what he was doing.
The last time Oda tried something a bit crazy (for me), was with the "Zeff assassination threat". I was hyped as fuck. But Bigmom just completely happened to forget that after the WCI arc. I mean, the whole reason for this arc to happen.
She didn't care about it in the first place. And after Luffy f*cked everything up anyway, why should she go after Zeff?
Before going on with this "bad writing" bs try to read it without missing details.
What do you think X Drake will do after this arc? Will he go back to being a Marine? What would his rank be vice admiral? certainly not Admiral
any chance he'll continue on as a pirate?
To be honest, about One Piece and Oda. The guy is literally using the same formula of script for every arcs since East Blue, but people are calling it "good writing" somehow. You may disagree and say that it's a "good formula" just like the "marvel movies". But it doesn't change that it's repetitive as fuck. Also gets sometimes very boring.
I'm not saying OnePiece is bad. But definitely don't like this formula, personally.
The last time Oda tried something a bit crazy (for me), was with the "Zeff assassination threat". I was hyped as fuck. But Bigmom just completely happened to forget that after the WCI arc. I mean, the whole reason for this arc to happen. The whole reason why Sanji followed Bege to WCI and wanted to wed one of her daughters was because of that threat.
Zeff should have died, period. Or Bigmom should have been turned into an ally or something something whatever. But ignoring the threat as if it had never happened was defo the worst thing to do. It just showed that Oda had no idea what he was doing.
This is pretty plainly false. There are lots of legitimate critiques of One Piece's story, but Oda has a couple basic arc structures (big ending arc, smaller build up arcs, prelude arcs) and has had quite a few arcs that don't fit into any of those categories. The first obvious example is the Davy Back Fight arc, but even before that Little Garden is much different than anything before it because Mr. 2 isn't so much a physical threat and Dorry and Broggy are obstacles, allies, and world-building figures. After that, Shaboady and everything that follows until really Fishman Island is vastly different than what came before. The crew 100 percent outmatched end up separated, Luffy goes with a group of former villains and new people to save his brother, a freaking war with borderline mythical figures, real death, and our happy hero reduced to dread. I don't really understand how any of that resembles the same formula of The East Blue arc.
I think Zou (to a lesser extent) and Whole Cake Island are also pretty different in formula compared to every other arc. Zou is the first pure breather arc since LongRing/Davy Back, and is mostly about revelation as opposed to action. Whole Cake Island repeats the principal of having overmatched heroes, but for a different reason than in Sabaody or Marineford. Luffy needs to level up within the battle and Sanji needs to reveal his truest worth outside of it. This forum was horrible at predicting Whole Cake because the formula was so different. Even Greg assumed Sanji's baking of the cake would have some battle aspect added to it, but it wasn't to be. I don't think most people really were ok with it until that last page or two with Zeff.
I don't know how many times I have to say this, but Big Mom's Zeff threat wasn't forgotten about, it just became irrelevant. The implication of Sanji getting Zeff's head in a box was only if he failed to come to the wedding. Not to mention that the BMPs made Judge the main enforcer of the threat later on (with Tamago giving him the picture of Zeff and the exploding cuffs), and the stuff with Judge was explicitly resolved during the wedding.
Hey Greg, just wondering but what do the Japanese readers think about Big Mom? Western readers have a mixed reaction to her character, but what about the Japanese readers?
She didn't care about it in the first place. And after Luffy f*cked everything up anyway, why should she go after Zeff?
Before going on with this "bad writing" bs try to read it without missing details.
Bad writing is the term. It doesn't change that the reason why the arc was triggered just completely happened to be overlooked. It's anticlimactic as fuck.
She doesn't have any reason not to kill Zeff. The problem wasn't properly addressed.
This is pretty plainly false. There are lots of legitimate critiques of One Piece's story, but Oda has a couple basic arc structures (big ending arc, smaller build up arcs, prelude arcs) and has had quite a few arcs that don't fit into any of those categories. The first obvious example is the Davy Back Fight arc, but even before that Little Garden is much different than anything before it because Mr. 2 isn't so much a physical threat and Dorry and Broggy are obstacles, allies, and world-building figures. After that, Shaboady and everything that follows until really Fishman Island is vastly different than what came before. The crew 100 percent outmatched end up separated, Luffy goes with a group of former villains and new people to save his brother, a freaking war with borderline mythical figures, real death, and our happy hero reduced to dread. I don't really understand how any of that resembles the same formula of The East Blue arc.
I think Zou (to a lesser extent) and Whole Cake Island are also pretty different in formula compared to every other arc. Zou is the first pure breather arc since LongRing/Davy Back, and is mostly about revelation as opposed to action. Whole Cake Island repeats the principal of having overmatched heroes, but for a different reason than in Sabaody or Marineford. Luffy needs to level up within the battle and Sanji needs to reveal his truest worth outside of it. This forum was horrible at predicting Whole Cake because the formula was so different. Even Greg assumed Sanji's baking of the cake would have some battle aspect added to it, but it wasn't to be. I don't think most people really were ok with it until that last page or two with Zeff.
Well I agree with that. There "breather arcs" between big arcs and Ace's rescue was different. Okay.
Zou is my favorite arc so far. No dumb fight, just storytelling
@Kaido:
I don't know how many times I have to say this, but Big Mom's Zeff threat wasn't forgotten about, it just became irrelevant. The implication of Sanji getting Zeff's head in a box was only if he failed to come to the wedding. Not to mention that the BMPs made Judge the main enforcer of the threat later on (with Tamago giving him the picture of Zeff and the exploding cuffs), and the stuff with Judge was explicitly resolved during the wedding.
Do you remember the guy that was killed by Katakuri the first time he was introduced ? I mean, this is exactly what the Bigmom pirates do to those who don't attend their wishes. They kill their relatives. This is what had established her as a threat, and gave her credit as a Yonko back in Zou. But nope, now it's "irrelevant" somehow
Going after Zeff at this point would be the final nail in the coffin containing their reputation. First Luffy humiliates them completely, makes BM a laughing stock in the world, and then they don't even try to get back at Luff but rather flail ineffectually at some old man in the weakest sea. They made the correct judgement that going after the SH is the only way to win back their name
Going after Zeff at this point would be the final nail in the coffin containing their reputation. First Luffy humiliates them completely, makes BM a laughing stock in the world, and then they don't even try to get back at Luff but rather flail ineffectually at some old man in the weakest sea. They made the correct judgement that going after the SH is the only way to win back their name
I disagree, doing both would be the only way to win back their name.
From the moment the threat is not brought to the end, all other future threats will be (to a certain degree) ineffective.
I disagree, doing both would be the only way to win back their name.
From the moment the threat is not brought to the end, all other future threats will be (to a certain degree) ineffective.
Doing it after beating Luffy then. Because to do it before just makes you look weak, like you don't dare to go against the one you are after so you resort to taking pot shots from afar
I disagree, doing both would be the only way to win back their name.
From the moment the threat is not brought to the end, all other future threats will be (to a certain degree) ineffective.
Like it was known to the public that Zeff was used as a hostage. This wouldn't help them in any way.
The world thinks Luffy is responsible for all that happened to them, and that's the only way how they can restore their reputation.
It's only said that Big Mom kills your dear ones when you miss her tea parties. This is a much more "proper" answer to this disrespect. Sanji couldn't avoid going to WCI and miss the wedding, but it was never stated that Big Mom would kill Zeff for any other reason, so there's no plot hole here.
What Luffy and Sanji did to her was much worse than missing her tea party, so it makes a lot more sense that she wants to kill them instead of their relatives. I totally agree with what Wolfwood is saying. It would be just ridiculous and weak to kill Zeff.
I'm trying to remember BM or any of her underlings bringing up Zeff. Wasn't it just the Vinsmokes saying it?
Do you remember the guy that was killed by Katakuri the first time he was introduced ? I mean, this is exactly what the Bigmom pirates do to those who don't attend their wishes. They kill their relatives. This is what had established her as a threat, and gave her credit as a Yonko back in Zou. But nope, now it's "irrelevant" somehow
Sanji attended the wedding though. And while he is certainly an enemy of the BMPs now, he didn't do anything during the wedding that would warrant a personal grudge against him.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Going after Zeff at this point would be the final nail in the coffin containing their reputation. First Luffy humiliates them completely, makes BM a laughing stock in the world, and then they don't even try to get back at Luff but rather flail ineffectually at some old man in the weakest sea. They made the correct judgement that going after the SH is the only way to win back their name
Even if a threat against Zeff from Big Mom was STILL legitimately lingering, it would still make no sense for her to do it under the current circumstances. Luffy plainly told her that he was going to Wano to take down Kaido, so:
I'm trying to remember BM or any of her underlings bringing up Zeff. Wasn't it just the Vinsmokes saying it?
Capone, Vito and Pekoms mentioned it in Zou when talking about people not going to Mama's tea parties.
@Kaido:
Sanji attended the wedding though. And while he is certainly an enemy of the BMPs now, he didn't do anything during the wedding that would warrant a personal grudge against him.
Apart from attacking Big Mom directly and being instrumental in foiling her main goal of assasinating the Vinsmokes, like the time he attacked Big Mom in order to stop her from killing a Vinsmoke
Capone, Vito and Pekoms mentioned it in Zou when talking about people not going to Mama's tea parties.
Thank you for this. I remember the whispering from Barto 2, but forgot the context. Also, I forgot that kamabaka Kingdom was mentioned as well. I wouldn't underestimate Zeff or Ivan tho. Both are tough
_@Zhenja:
https://abload.de/img/0852-016dqjhx.jpg
She didn't care about it in the first place. And after Luffy f*cked everything up anyway, why should she go after Zeff?
Before going on with this "bad writing" bs try to read it without missing details._ Lets ignore the fact that this slightly tortured reasoning is made by Reiju, who is an complete outsider to the Big Mom pirates, yet speaks on their behalf (in contrast to how Pekoms, an actual Big Mom pirate, laid out the way she operates) and asume that we can take her statement that Big Mom won’t care about Zeff completely seriously: that would only be the case if she got the Germa Tech, which is what she really wanted.
Which she doesn't get, as Sanji elects to personally and publically save Germa – which, going by both his own and Reijus logic, should doom Zeff. Sanji is literally thwarting the apparent only reason Big Mom would have not to care about him specifically. It was Sanjis entire third and final reason for not being able to rejoin Luffy, which was laid out AFTER this scene with Reiju.
Come on guys, are we still doing this where the entire point of a "deterrent" is ignored in order to justify this?
The thing about deterrents is that they only work if you follow through with them. The fear of losing the hostage is what is supposed to keep people compliant. Even before we reach Totland it is laid out explicitly by Pekoms that this is how Big Mom always operates. Its standard Mafioso tactics, and fits perfectly with the prior portrayal of Big Mom as someone who always gets what she wants – literally giving you an offer you can’t refuse. Do what she says, or your familys’ dead. Its a terrifying display of the influence and might of an emperor: not only does she know of Zeff, she can threaten his life, despite him being on the other side of the world! That doesn’t make her “weak”, it makes her more threatening; its saying she can kill anyone anywhere and significantly ups the stakes of the arc.
So, when people spit in Big Moms face and ruin her plans and she don’t follow through on killing the hostage, it makes her look weak, as the consequences of crossing her are severely reduced. What if everyone knew that Big Mom won’t actually target your family, but just you, if you piss her off? It reduces the stakes. It invites people to challenge her. Its much easier to gamble your own lives, than those of your family- which is again, the whole reason why Big Mom takes hostages in the first place!
So yeah, why would Big Mom kill Zeff after the wedding? Because she would want to punish the crew. Because shes an extremely angry and vindictive character. Because it would maintain the promise set up in the beginning of the arc and maintain her reputation, because its been established that’s how she operates. Hell, she could target ALL the crews families as a show of power and influence, to send a signal that this is what happens to those who cross her. Think of pretty much any gangster story where a characters family is taken hostage or threatened: Is the solution to not care and just make the criminals extremely pissed off? Because actually targeting family members would “make you look weak” or because actually it wasn’t the relative to the hostage but his SUPERIOR who was the bigger target so lets forget the hostage entirely? The family gets killed, as a show of force.
The entire arc is predicated on the threat to Zeffs life, it is constantly referenced in the first half of the arc, where it informs everything Sanji does. The story paints the threat to Zeff as very real, and the reason why they just can’t flip off Big Mom and leave. Having said problem completely dissipate without consequence is extremely dramatically unsatisfying. But the story ultimately just doesn’t have an answer to the problem.
It makes her look like a punk when Luffy is still sailing her sea, still being the guy who beat BM. If a guy punks you and you go to the retirement home and take it out on his grandma it doesn't make you look powerful, it makes you look like a pitiful weak loser who can't hold your own against your equals. The threat holds when you are in the driver seat, but where BM is now anything short of bringing down Luffy is poison to her rep. She can kill anybody she wants but it will only make her look weaker in the eyes of her peers.
That scene is not supposed to be Reiju giving us insight on how BM thinks, it's just saying that the current threat lingering on Zeff's head came from the Vinsmoke family, not from her. There was an actual threat to Zeff's life at that point, so Reiju clarified it was a strategy Judge was using, not BM, so Sanji shouldn't worry about her because the one who had his eyes on Zeff's head was his father.
That was a turning point in the arc: that was right before Sanji left the chateau and could actually leave WCI entirely with his friends peacefully, leaving his family behind to die and not suffer any consequence from it. The "act" when Sanji was being held back there because Zeff was a hostage was ending right there, from that moment on the arc changed to Sanji choosing to stay behind to protect his blood family - not because someone else could be endangered, but despite of that.
Everything that happened before the wedding happened because Sanji wanted to protect his crew and the people at the Baratie. Everything from the wedding on happened because Sanji wanted to protect the Vinsmoke. There was no reason, plot-wise, to keep Zeff as a hostage and that's why Oda let him go.
As for how BM should act after the arc… yes, from what we know of her she would probably go after Sanji's close ones after the wedding... just as Nami's, Chopper's and, most of all, Luffy's. There is no reason to fixate on Zeff because, again, Zeff was set as target before by Judge. From that point on, he was just one of the many faces connected to the SH who opposed BM and there's no reason to single him out and not ask "why she didn't cut Kureha's head?" or "Nojiko's head" or "Makino's head".
But she didn't went after any of them because BM goes after people's cared ones to teach them a lesson. Right now BM doesn't want to teach the SH a lesson. She doesn't want to prove something to Luffy by taking someone else's head, she wants to prove something to the world by taking Luffy's head. She has no interest in killing Makino to teach Luffy to not oppose her, she needs to kill Luffy himself to show the world she is not beneath him. She has no time for mafia games now.
Yeah I think at this point, nothing short of getting Luffy will satisfy Big Mom. She couldn't care less about anyone else. Maybe that makes her stupid but it makes sense to me
It's all that damn bird's fault!
I mean if she went out and beat up Kaido or Shanks grandparents would that make her more feared? Cause that is what we are looking at here, in the world press a challenge was laid down, Luffy is your equal prove us wrong. So now do you pick up the glove like a (wo)man and face your foe to prove you still have it. Or do you go around beating seniors and children in east blue while your rep takes a nosedive cause you seem afraid to deal with him directly.
She should go after Garp, that would be fun. :ninja:
I don't have a master memory of the timeline of all things, but I think it's worth remembering how short the window of time that Big Mom would've had to make the call to send someone to kill Zeff.
Whenever she left Totland for Wano, possibly even from the moment she got the Morgan's news on the event, she's been hyper focused on Luffy, then the memory shenanigans, then she's been with kaido. Big Mom's tunnel visioned brain definitely wouldn't have room to stop for a moment and say "Hey, send Bobbin to go kill that chef guy while we're out." Not to mention however long her crew needed to focus on recovery and rebuilding around Totland whenever the fighting with Germa and Jinbe's crew finally ended.
It doesn't seem that ridiculous that she hasn't followed up on that threat when barely any time had passed in-universe before they left for Wano.
@Daz:
Lets ignore the fact that this slightly tortured reasoning is made by Reiju, who is an complete outsider to the Big Mom pirates, yet speaks on their behalf (in contrast to how Pekoms, an actual Big Mom pirate, laid out the way she operates) and asume that we can take her statement that Big Mom won’t care about Zeff completely seriously: that would only be the case if she got the Germa Tech, which is what she really wanted.
Like you said, Big Mom only wanted the wedding to take place to get all of Germa to show up so she could kill them and steal their tech. If Sanji didn't show, neither would Germa. The whole plan depended on Sanji being alive and willingly participating to draw Germa in. That is why you threaten to kill Zeff, because if Sanji runs you can just keep killing people he cares about until he decides to show up. Big Mom and Germa don't care about Zeff or the Straw Hats, they both only wanted Sanji to come alive and well to serve their plans. Big Mom got what she wanted, Sanji and Germa showed up, it was her fault that they completely screwed up the 2nd part of the plan to kill everyone. The Straw Hats and Capone ruined that part of the plan so why go after anyone else. Like Wolfwood said, you don't pick a fight with someone then go after their baby brother or frail grandmother. That just makes it look like you're afraid to fight the real person. Big Mom doesn't fear the Straw Hats or anything so she will obviously go after them directly.
Going after Zeff at this point would be the final nail in the coffin containing their reputation. First Luffy humiliates them completely, makes BM a laughing stock in the world, and then they don't even try to get back at Luff but rather flail ineffectually at some old man in the weakest sea. They made the correct judgement that going after the SH is the only way to win back their name
Im pretty sure you can do both. Kill their relatives to make them regret standing to you and so people remember its not just about if tou are willing to die but also how important your family is. And also kill them so the world know you cant walk away just fine.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
As it stands any threat is now a potential bluff. Send the heads to the journal with a note that Luffy is next. The whole point was that you cant just dodge her because your stable relatives are also in the crossfire and cant just escape and you risking your innocents.
To be clear, I do respect people having the opinion that the Yonko being even more sinister and using their global connections against their opponents more often would benefit the story. I simply want to address the misconception that Big Mom was set up to kill Zeff if the Straw Hats crossed her.
Really it was just a plot device from the very beginning. Big Mom could have threatened to kill the Straw Hats from the beginning and it would not have bothered Sanji that much because Luffy had already pissed her off multiple times and they planned on fighting Kaido so what is another Emperor to deal with. Plus, the Straw Hats make it their business to go around picking fights with terrible people who abuse power and whatnot. So, how does Oda get Sanji to leave his family behind? By threatening his other family (Zeff) on the other side of the world who have no inkling of the danger they're in, have done nothing to deserve being killed by Big Mom, and whose only sin would have been saving Sanji's life and raising him like a son.
Im pretty sure you can do both. Kill their relatives to make them regret standing to you and so people remember its not just about if tou are willing to die but also how important your family is. And also kill them so the world know you cant walk away just fine.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
As it stands any threat is now a potential bluff. Send the heads to the journal with a note that Luffy is next. The whole point was that you cant just dodge her because your stable relatives are also in the crossfire and cant just escape and you risking your innocents.
The prism to view this through is that officially BM lost, she is the old gangster being overtaken by the new kid in town. As it stands this is not superior emperor dealing out punishment to an uppity subordinate. This is a loser trying to regain her standing among her peers, and in these circumstances her trying to make petty killings doesn't read as oooh scary BM guess we shouldn't cross her, it reads as huh guess BM is on decline, guess BM can't deal with an upcoming threat. What reads as a show of power when you are on top, reads as a show of weakness and desperation when you are on the bottom
It makes her look like a punk when Luffy is still sailing her sea, still being the guy who beat BM. If a guy punks you and you go to the retirement home and take it out on his grandma it doesn't make you look powerful, it makes you look like a pitiful weak loser who can't hold your own against your equals. The threat holds when you are in the driver seat, but where BM is now anything short of bringing down Luffy is poison to her rep. She can kill anybody she wants but it will only make her look weaker in the eyes of her peers.
But whats the point of hostages at all then? This isn't some thing we bring up as spur-of-the-moment retaliation for the Straw Hats actions, this was the foundation the entire arc was built on. And yeah, its a dishonerable tactic…but thats the point? Thats what mafiosos do, and Big Mom is explicitly drawing on mafioso tropes. Besides, by this reasoning, Big Mom already looks like a punk for putting a gun to grandmas head in the first place. Choosing not to pull the trigger after you spit in her face doesn't make her look less like a pump, it makes her more of a wimp. It tells everyone that you can dodge Big Moms trump card as long as you skip town after flipping her off.
And you're saying that Big Mom doesn't want to look weak…but that she can't assasinate the relatives of "equals"...which means that by NOT assasinating Zeff she herself is indicating that Luffy is her equal. I mean, the he whole hostage system is already built on her getting people who are weaker than her to fall in line in the first place. I mean, does it make Big Mom look bad when she burns down a nation that doesn't give her sweets? Said nation is super weak compared to her after all.
Whereas…there is literally nothing Luffy and his crew can do about the threat to Zeff, and literally nothing comparable they can do to her. She can kill the relatives of this alleged "new emperor" with complete impunity. In terms of worldwide influence, Big Mom killing Zeff would show that Luffy is in no way shape or form her equal.
Also, in terms of reputation, shes already kinda torched it with the whole "betray the Vinsmokes to get their tech even though I'd get it anyway" plan.
The prism to view this through is that officially BM lost, she is the old gangster being overtaken by the new kid in town. As it stands this is not superior emperor dealing out punishment to an uppity subordinate. This is a loser trying to regain her standing among her peers, and in these circumstances her trying to make petty killings doesn't read as oooh scary BM guess we shouldn't cross her, it reads as huh guess BM is on decline, guess BM can't deal with an upcoming threat. What reads as a show of power when you are on top, reads as a show of weakness and desperation when you are on the bottom
But she can do both. It's not like like there's a limited number of bullets. SHe can kill strawhats family to make them regret and remind other why they don't stand up to her ever and also kill the strawhats to regain standing. Usually she just kill your family and move on. Now she can kill your family then kill you. Your family shouldnt suddenly get a pass. Big Mom is so scary because if you are pirate who can escape she can still get to your siblings and important one to fix adress. Her suddenly giving up on that when you make her even more mad is strange. The consequences should be bigger
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Heck get the families on a neutral island and send a message to come because you have their family. It still lets them live longer but at least in this case there's a purpose to their survival. Just giving them a pass is strange.
@.access:
That scene is not supposed to be Reiju giving us insight on how BM thinks, it's just saying that the current threat lingering on Zeff's head came from the Vinsmoke family, not from her. There was an actual threat to Zeff's life at that point, so Reiju clarified it was a strategy Judge was using, not BM, so Sanji shouldn't worry about her because the one who had his eyes on Zeff's head was his father.
The Vinsmokes may have pointed out the existence of Zeff, but that was again only relevant because hostage taking is how Big Mom always operates. It is Big Mom with the worlds best information network, and it is Big Mom assassins that would take down Zeff, not Vinsmoke ones.
@.access:
That was a turning point in the arc: that was right before Sanji left the chateau and could actually leave WCI entirely with his friends peacefully, leaving his family behind to die and not suffer any consequence from it. .
Uh, Sanji explicitly states that even if he wanted to escape and leave his family to die he couldn’t. Because of the threat to Zeff. Which relies on Big Moms well-established worldwide hostage-taking-enabling influence.
And regardless of who brought Zeff up first: From the beginning of the arc and throughout, Big Mom knows that he is the weak point of Sanji, one of Luffys main crewmembers. She knows this even if what she “really” cared about is the Vinsmoke tech, and she knows this when Luffy and Sanji save the Vinsmokes, leave her chatau in ruins, and runs away blowing raspberries at her.
Basically Big Mom – who will hold a grudge for years on end and will raze your country to the ground for being late with candy shipping – has a button labeled “Kill Straw Hat Family Member”…and you’re saying that after the entire Whole Cake debacle, Big Mom looks at said button, and goes “No, I can’t, it’d make me look bad”.
@.access:
As for how BM should act after the arc… yes, from what we know of her she would probably go after Sanji's close ones after the wedding... just as Nami's, Chopper's and, most of all, Luffy's. There is no reason to fixate on Zeff because, again, Zeff was set as target before by Judge. From that point on, he was just one of the many faces connected to the SH who opposed BM and there's no reason to single him out and not ask "why she didn't cut Kureha's head?" or "Nojiko's head" or "Makino's head".
But she didn't went after any of them because BM goes after people's cared ones to teach them a lesson. Right now BM doesn't want to teach the SH a lesson. She doesn't want to prove something to Luffy by taking someone else's head, she wants to prove something to the world by taking Luffy's head. She has no interest in killing Makino to teach Luffy to not oppose her, she needs to kill Luffy himself to show the world she is not beneath him. She has no time for mafia games now.
She can do both? She has the worlds greatest intelligence network, and is a literal emperor with worldwide influence. Think of the sheer display of power it would be if she met Sanji, looked him in the eye, picked up a snail and went “yeah, Big Mom here. Kill the geezer”. And then, as Sanjis whole world falls apart, she can kill him too.
Again, that’s the thing about targeting family members. If people know they gamble JUST their own lives against Big Mom, its really no different from poking a big bear and running away. But the targeting of family members is what hurts, its what ensures that no one ever pokes Big Mom in the first place.
Plus: When the whole arc is predicated on “Sanji is placed into this situation because Zeff is held hostage by Big Mom”, its just so lame to have the resolution be “Luckily, it turns out Big Mom didn’t care about Zeff, despite her whole deal with taking hostages!”
@Daz:
But whats the point of hostages at all then? This isn't some thing we bring up as spur-of-the-moment retaliation for the Straw Hats actions, this was the foundation the entire arc was built on. And yeah, its a dishonerable tactic…but thats the point? Thats what mafiosos do, and Big Mom is explicitly drawing on mafioso tropes. Besides, by this reasoning, Big Mom already looks like a punk for putting a gun to grandmas head in the first place. Choosing not to pull the trigger after you spit in her face doesn't make her look less like a pump, it makes her more of a wimp. It tells everyone that you can dodge Big Moms trump card as long as you skip town after flipping her off.
And you're saying that Big Mom doesn't want to look weak…but that she can't assasinate the relatives of "equals"...which means that by NOT assasinating Zeff she herself is indicating that Luffy is her equal. I mean, the he whole hostage system is already built on her getting people who are weaker than her to fall in line in the first place. I mean, does it make Big Mom look bad when she burns down a nation that doesn't give her sweets? Said nation is super weak compared to her after all.
Whereas…there is literally nothing Luffy and his crew can do about the threat to Zeff, and literally nothing comparable they can do to her. She can kill the relatives of this alleged "new emperor" with complete impunity. In terms of worldwide influence, Big Mom killing Zeff would show that Luffy is in no way shape or form her equal.
Also, in terms of reputation, shes already kinda torched it with the whole "betray the Vinsmokes to get their tech even though I'd get it anyway" plan.
It isn't really up to here to admit or deny that Luffy is her equal. Thanks bird J Jonah Jameson the whole world belives that to be the case, and thats just the way things are. Now for instance if Luffy ran out of the new world and hid, Zeff killing isn't a punk move, but when Luffy is still in her sphere, publically raising his flag against her it'd be a massive show of weakness to try to even the score by going after third parties rather than the guy who moved in on your territory. It is all a matter of positions and context, her threats build her rep when used against subordinates, or people who try to hide from her wrath, her threats undermine her rep when it is aimed at an equal who is within striking distance. If a rival mafia family moves in on your territory you go to war, you don't start killing unrelated old men and expect the other gangs to take this as a show of force. The only thing that does that is taking it to them and hitting back.
But she can do both. It's not like like there's a limited number of bullets. SHe can kill strawhats family to make them regret and remind other why they don't stand up to her ever and also kill the strawhats to regain standing. Usually she just kill your family and move on. Now she can kill your family then kill you. Your family shouldnt suddenly get a pass. Big Mom is so scary because if you are pirate who can escape she can still get to your siblings and important one to fix adress. Her suddenly giving up on that when you make her even more mad is strange. The consequences should be bigger
I'm not saying she can't, what i am saying is that going after family members of the guy who beat you instead of evening the score with the guy itself makes you look like a toothless old dog and lowers peoples opinion of you.
Daz is completely right on this issue. It wouldn't even be that hard to write a better solution to this dilemma. The Strawhats could have tamed BM by baking the best cake that BM even had eaten in order to at least negotiate some kind of partial truce. That'd also fit thematically perfectly as it would prove the point to the Vinsmokes that cooking not only is not useless, but also is the only saving grace for them whereas all of their solutions blatantly fail.
Alternatively the Strawhats might have tried the figure out the source of the network within the boundaries of the OP world. So the BM pirates can easily travel to whatever place in the world. How are they doing this? Huh, they have access to some kind of magical dimension which connects every mirror in the whole world. Great, we found out, so let's see how we can disable this…
It isn't really up to here to admit or deny that Luffy is her equal. Thanks bird J Jonah Jameson the whole world belives that to be the case, and thats just the way things are. Now for instance if Luffy ran out of the new world and hid, Zeff killing isn't a punk move, but when Luffy is still in her sphere, publically raising his flag against her it'd be a massive show of weakness to try to even the score by going after third parties rather than the guy who moved in on your territory. It is all a matter of positions and context, her threats build her rep when used against subordinates, or people who try to hide from her wrath, her threats undermine her rep when it is aimed at an equal who is within striking distance. If a rival mafia family moves in on your territory you go to war, you don't start killing unrelated old men and expect the other gangs to take this as a show of force. The only thing that does that is taking it to them and hitting back.
I'm not saying she can't, what i am saying is that going after family members of the guy who beat you instead of evening the score with the guy itself makes you look like a toothless old dog and lowers peoples opinion of you.
No one is saying anything about “Rather” or "instead". Big Mom can go after the Straw Hats personally while still ordering the equivalence of a drone strike on Zeff. The ultimate show of force is breaking their hearts before ending their lives.
I’m honestly not sure what you mean with “The only thing that does that is taking it to them and hitting back.“. But here you have a conflict between two gangs, where one gang -beyond taking the fight directly to gang 2 - can kill every person related to gang 2, and gang 2 can’t do anything about it. Regardless of what the newspaper says, those gangs aren’t equal, and Big Mom is giving chase to Luffy anyway, so what does she, the emperor of a nation, care if some rando in another country thinks? She kills hostages all the time, but having the power to kill every loved one of the alleged “new emperor”s crew with impunity en route to killing said rival is going to make her look somehow bad? Its not gonna show that the so called “new emperor” has severe limitations?
And does Big Mom have to personally chase down any punk crew that interferes with her operation and runs away to maintain her reputation? If that was the case it should already be completely ruined by Kidd and Urogue, who both performed hit-and run tactics on her and yet were not chased down (Also, unlike the Straw Hats, Big Mom did not literally have a gun to the head of Urogue and Kidds grandma before they attacked her – because putting a gun to grandmas head is what stops that from happening)
Basically you're saying that the trick to solving the problem of gangsters holding your grandma hostage is to just shrug and screw with the gangsters anyway, as long as you cause enough trouble that you get in the paper, which will make the gangsters too self-conscious about their image to follow through and kill grandma
We know she cares because the crew came to wano specifically to try to salvage their name. She cares about her name, she cares about being perceived as strong and she most defintely cares about being seen as beneath Luffy. And when the world knows what Luffy did, and knows exactly where he is now, he ain't hiding, and BM goes and attacks weaklings it sends a clear message. BM is scared of Luffy, the new emperor is too much for her so she has to resort to this, in that context she isn't striking from a zone of power she is the kid on the playground who got beat up and starts kicking over the kindergartners sand castles to feel big again. What i meant with taking it to them is just that, a blow against anyone who isn't Luffy right now is an admission of their desperation and their utter failiure to properly restore their honor. What in pre-WCI could've been an effective tool circumstances have now made obsolete. As for Kidd and Urouge they were never given an official win over her, if they had however the same sore loser rules would've applied and added to BM's shame if she had blown up their preschool in a tantrum
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I think one of the things we disagree on here is the definition of what we are looking at. To me what began as a hostage situation betwenn a nobody and an emperor has now been redefined as a battle betwenn two emperors. And in that context acts carry different implications than they previously did. For instance if your perceived equal faces you head on and wins, and your reponse is indirect action and petty revenge by proxy it does not reflect well on you. You need to respond in kind to save face
Kidd blew up several of her ships and suffered no consequences. Urogue made landfall in Totland, beat up one of her top officers, escaped, and suffered no consequences. I don't see how either of those wouldn't be considered "wins". Because the paper didn't cover it? I personally think that its a bit much that Big Moms entire behavior is dictated by the framing of a newspaper headline. So if Morgans prose had been more neutral, or if he hadn't published anything, would Big Mom then have killed Zeff? If everything had gone according to plan and then Morgans had framed Big Mom as a cheap, untrustworthy loser for betraying the Vinsmokes, then what?
And I think our main disagreement - as I lead with in my former post - is that Big Mom has the capacity to easily do both things. By all means, let her chase down Luffy as she is currently doing, in order to assert dominance - but theres no reason she can't also have Zeff killed. Why not? Would that not make the Straw Hats' defeat even more complete? If you have the ability to do so, would you not want to rub the death of your enemies family in their faces before you kill them? Doing so afterwards would mean her enemies never experienced the full consequences of their actions.
And yeah, I also think we disagree on whether the resolution to the hostage problem, which is foundational to the arc, is satisfactory; to me, its like a trolley problem where it ultimately turns out that the trolley will hit the brakes brakes before running someone over, because its worried about its reputation
I mean imagine that BM was Donald Trump, why would president Donald Trump, most powerful man in the world, care if people think he had small hands? Surely he wouldn't get into shouting matches over something as silly as his hand size. Like reputation and how people perceive you can seem like a who cares problem to you or me, but put yourself into the shoes of a mentally unstable narcississt prone to throwing tantrums when he's made to look bad.
@Daz:
Kidd blew up several of her ships and suffered no consequences. Urogue made landfall in Totland, beat up one of her top officers, escaped, and suffered no consequences. I don't see how either of those wouldn't be considered "wins". Because the paper didn't cover it? I personally think that its a bit much that Big Moms entire behavior is dictated by the framing of a newspaper headline. So if Morgans prose had been more neutral, or if he hadn't published anything, would Big Mom then have killed Zeff? If everything had gone according to plan and then Morgans had framed Big Mom as a cheap, untrustworthy loser for betraying the Vinsmokes, then what?
….............................
Well, none challenged BM directly like Luffy. I guess skirmish with an emperor's executive is rather a recurring incident in OP world if not frequent , but attempted assassination is too big a thing to ignore. So the bait that Morgan created by his reporting was too personal for her.
Oddly enough I agree with both sides of the argument.