Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

[HeartOfDarkness]

@wolfwood:

Putting aside the argument at hand, it seems to me that if you wanted to convey something a certain way, and a substansial part of the readership then gets a wildly different impression from what you put forth, then there is probably something not quite right with the way you went about it. Even more so in a visual medium. You can't leave blanks to be filled in on what preceded and also be suprised that people fill the blanks in in the way that requires the least assumptions

Which would be true…...if this fandom, and this place in particular, didn't already have a problem with overreacting like that every once in a while.

It really isn't the fault of the actual text if people don't even bother reading it and then turnaround to claim what isn't shown in the text.

Mind you this outrage was still a thing when official translations weren't out and people read the spoilers in not-so-good-English, and decided to rant about it. Which again wouldn't be an issue.....if there wasn't already a long-line of patterns when it comes to people jumping to conclusions without having even read the chapter.

[desa]

The argument for most people isn't is Kaido strong (he is) but should your villain be shown to be vulnerable prior to facing the hero. Some says because it makes them human some say no because it lessen the emotional resonance when the hero defeats them.

[.access timeco.]

I think since we know how Zoan fruits work, it's not a problem. We know the animal form is the weakest of the (at least) three forms a Zoan user can access. Kaido could be a special case like Chopper, but going by the rule of Zoans we only saw him being overpowered (be it by Luffy or Oden) in what is most likely his weakest form.
We still need to see anyone doing anything against his human form. Then against his hybrid form. Then even a possible Awakened form.

Treating his "defeat" (using that word very loosely here) in the weakest of his three/four forms as a stain on his overall threat level is like saying Piccolo defeating Freeza's second form made him as less threatening villain or his fight against Goku less emotional.

@wolfwood:

Putting aside the argument at hand, it seems to me that if you wanted to convey something a certain way, and a substansial part of the readership then gets a wildly different impression from what you put forth, then there is probably something not quite right with the way you went about it. Even more so in a visual medium. You can't leave blanks to be filled in on what preceded and also be suprised that people fill the blanks in in the way that requires the least assumptions

That I can't disagree with.

[HeartOfDarkness]

How does it lessen…..anything? Of all the debate and discussion, this thing has been thrown around quite a lot but very little explanation beyond that.

How does Oden scarring Kaidou in the past lessen Luffy's eventual victory in the present? What's the connection?

[MasterKingJC]

@Daz:

Well, 1) the only reason he was allowed the time to get back up is that his opponent got distracted by a cheap trick, and b) the only reason visibly-bleeding-and-exhausted-after-a-single-attack Kaidou takes out his has-just-charged-through-Kaidous-entire-army opponent is that said opponent was distracted by a cheap trick.

The problem with this is that you're making the assumption that Oden's next attack would have killed Kaido, that Kaido wouldn't have reacted before the next attack came, and that Higurashi acted on Kaido's orders and not her own.

Enel instantly counters Wipers attack in order to seem even more unstoppable than before,

He did not instantly counter the attack. He took the full blunt of the reject dial and a few moments later, he restarted his heart. He still took damage and bled, but it didn't lower his standing as the main villain of the arc.

and Hody is a terrible example because he's about as unthreatening as villains in OP gets. Why point to him in this scenario when he's the poster boy of a tension-less antagonist in the series.

@desa:

Hody and his boys were not supposed to be a threat to our crew but instead showcase how much they improved.

Wiper was making a sacrifice play and Enel resurrected himself. Meaning even Wiper desperate and self sacrificing couldn't stop this villain. The point was that even that attack couldn't stop him not that Wiper was too dangerous.

What I'm getting at is that we have seen villains overwhelmed and injured momentarily by characters that are not Luffy. Being a threat to the crew or the people involved is not as important to this specific discussion.

[uniaka ikuzakas]

@andre:

The biggest thing this chapter makes me want to do is evaluate Kaido's fight with Luffy again. What is Oda's intention that makes these fights so different? Or I guess, why did Oda feel it was necessary to distract Oden, but not Luffy? I don't have an answer, but I think it is worthwhile to lay out the different factors.

1. Oden hurt Kaido enough to leave a scar.
2. Luffy doesn't seem to have hurt him all that much.
3. They both hurt him enough to make him transform.
4. They both initially attacked him as a dragon while he wasn't focused on them
5. Kaido easily dispatched both of them with one hit outside of his dragon form.
6. Luffy lets Kaido transform back to a human.

The big differences are that Luffy wasn't distracted and that Oden actually left a scar on Kaido. I wonder what Oda was going for?

Luffy had no shot, oden's hit not only left him his only scar and white eyes too and hurt, bleeding, pissed. Kaidou mocked luffy, what kind of king do you want to be? Kaidou was not mocking oden after that hit.

And oden had to fight the armies just to get to kaidou while kaidou just had to wait. Imagine if oden was fine and not tired having to fight the armies just to reach him.

[desa]

@HeartOfDarkness:

How does Oden scarring Kaidou in the past lessen Luffy's eventual victory in the present? What's the connection?

The more desperate, hopeless and impossible the task seem. The more it seems incredible that Luffy accomplished the task.

[Cockycent]

Ngl, this is madness lol

[Robby]

@Daz:

theres no scene of Mihawk punking Don Krieg before Luffy takes him on (and gets put through the wringer, I might add).

Don Krieg we meet having had his fleet wrecked, disheveled, and begging for food. He's pathetic from the moment we meet him, and in the middle of his arc before Luffy really gets down to it, Mihawk does show up and wrecks his boat, at which point Krieg whines and complains that its unfair that someone that strong exists. .

He was always a small fish that sucked compared to the bigger world. That Luffy had trouble with him was mostly the limited fight space surrounded by water. Otherwise, everything Krieg did, like pulling up a shield wall of spikes, Luffy just punched through no problem.

Krieg started and ended as a pathetic example of a guy trying to brute force cheat his way through things and he had nothing to back it up, he sucked the entire time.

I’m not sure why you would bring up the New Fishman pirates, considering they are widely seen as some of, if not the least threatening and least effective villains in the entire series.

Because people are acting like Oda having a villain take a hit from not-the-lead is unprecedented. When its not. Oda makes his badguys vulnerable all the time.

And like I noted, Blackbeard, likely final villain of the series, has lost against Magellan and Whitebeard and opted to not fight Shanks or Admirals, and Burgess got wrecked by Sabo. All of Kaidou's big minions have been beat to hell long before Luffy or Zoro ever get a shot at them. It's something Oda does.

And then theres the issue in how depicting Kaidou this way affects the tragic impact of the flashback. Usually, the tragedy relies on completely insurmountable obstacles. No one could defeat Arlong at the time, etc. But here, the obstacle was apparently quite surmountable, and so the tragedy I guess is that Oden could've handled things but was a moron?

Or, he got one good hit in, and then would have been wrecked right after regardless, the hostage just made the fight less dragged out? Oden is one of the big boys, capable of hanging with Roger and WHitebeard, I really don't see the issue with him getting a good hit in.

Is the issue just that in the scale of things, Oden is a relatively new name in the house of power players? If he'd been built up for decades like Roger as a legendary badass among the best in the world, would it be more okay that he got in one hit?

[Sengokusgoat]

Here's the thing. Maybe Kaido could have gotten back quick from that and wreck Oden anyway. But then why not show just that happen? Having the business with the hag serves no purpose in the narrative other than establishing that Kaido's defeat of Oden was not fair and square. Sure, maybe he could have beaten him in a 1 vs 1. But we don't know because that's not what happened. So I'd say not only does Oden come out of this looking better than Kaido, but this was clearly Oda's intention with this chapter.

[wolfwood]

@Robby:

Because people are acting like Oda having a villain take a hit from not-the-lead is unprecedented. When its not. Oda makes his badguys vulnerable all the time.

And like I noted, Blackbeard, likely final villain of the series, has lost against Magellan and Whitebeard and opted to not fight Shanks or Admirals

Different villains have different strengths and selling points tho. Well known sneaky weasel Blackbeard suffering defeats while trying to claw his way in to power doesn't read the same as a guy whos only known selling point is being strong is shown to not be strong enough. BB is on a whole nother trajectory where these type of setbacks don't really do much to his character appeal. But having Kaido job for Oden before Luffy takes a whack at him does something to his appeal.

[Greg]

Wow! Hot topic!!!!

Kudos to all of you. You're bringing real points up and not just saying you don't like it because 'you're not feeling it'.

But there's a certain image of Kaido that has been built-up, how many times was it stated that he's a monster that couldn't be taken down in over 20 years by characters in Wano?

This is what I mean about people possibly underhyping Oden.

In some cases I believe that sentiment stems from the perplexing anti-Oden movement. I've enjoyed the fellow from the start, understood way before any of this that Oda was setting him up to be Herculean, and read the signs of what it meant that if a lazy-ass out-of-practice thug like Ashura who can pummel Jack in a second bows down to Oden, then yeah, Oden is a veritable wrecking ball.

In essence, it's Luffy's job to outdo Oden in this arc.

If you buy Oden (and I do) then you accept that Luffy must pick up where Oden left off and definitively defeat Kaido. If he manages that with Momo, he will have overcome Oden and taken that much closer a step to being close to Roger level god-tier.

But literally none of that works unless you think Oden is a powerful dude. And a lotta ppl, maybe no so much here, seem to be confusing 'not liking' with 'not being powerful'.

Has Kaido been built up? Yes. But Oden is just that monstrous. And it's Luffy's job to approach going beyond that. Since we know Kaido has been bested, it shouldn't take anyone by surprise. I think just a lot of readers are sour on Oden and seeing a character they don't like doing something of that magnitude causes the sourness to overflow.

[ARTEMlS]

@wolfwood:

Different villains have different strengths and selling points tho.

Yeah, and some of the villains have the selling point of being an insurmountable wall that'll push our protagonist to his absolute limits and beyond. These villains are accompanied by a more battle-heavy arc pushing all other Strawhats to their boundaries as well in 1 vs. 1-battles as well. (Or at least ALMOST) all Strawhats. Prime examples for such kind of villains are Arlong, Lucci and the one who I'd say still is the pinnacle of writing such a villain in One Piece: Sir Crocodile.

The actual main problem is: All the positive examples Daz or wolfwood come up with are way back in Paradise like 50+ volumes prior. So where are these wall villains in the New World who are actually supposed to top the aforementioned prior villains to complete shame? Who end up as even more compelling villains and deliver an even more cathartic and satisfactory feeling when that wall finally will be overcome by Luffy? The deal is: None of the previous New world villains were build up in a way to be this insurmountable wall that only Luffy has the ability to finally overcome.

Doflamingo was a wall that was insurmountable by everyone besides Luffy (- minus Fuji, but that's another can of worms), but at the end was only supposed to be a stepping stone for Luffy in order to show that he's able to challenge the real insurmountable wall bosses now. And whereas Doffy/dressrosa has quite some other problems, this part he fulfils almost perfectly. And Big Mom was/is an insurmountable which, unlike the aforementioned previous villains, never was to get torn apart in her arc. Which Oda did a terrible job by making her some mindless beast for the whole climax which almost even get herself killed. In fact, Big Moms job was to actually hype Kaido even more by showing that he's an untouchable beast of the same calibre. Which completely fell flat by a) making her that mindless raging beast and b) not enough one-upping her powers compared to previous characters. Yeah, I get it, she's super strong, but just nothing we haven't already seen from guys like Aokiji (who did his job as insurmountable wall which doesn't get any cracks for such a long time way better than her).

So we end up with Kaido: Who is supposed to be this untouchable, insurmountable wall - and who got DECADES of build-up for to be exactly this kind of villain. And to say it again: He got decades of build-up to be the actual VERY FIRST insurmountable wall boss of the NEW WORLD. But he just doesn't live up to any of the hype created all other the previous years. This chapter is a prime example due to the reasons already pointed out… That's why we are so disappointed and somewhat pissed!

[Joy Boy]

@Greg:

Wow! Hot topic!!!!

Kudos to all of you. You're bringing real points up and not just saying you don't like it because 'you're not feeling it'.

This is what I mean about people possibly underhyping Oden.

In some cases I believe that sentiment stems from the perplexing anti-Oden movement. I've enjoyed the fellow from the start, understood way before any of this that Oda was setting him up to be Herculean, and read the signs of what it meant that if a lazy-ass out-of-practice thug like Ashura who can pummel Jack in a second bows down to Oden, then yeah, Oden is a veritable wrecking ball.

In essence, it's Luffy's job to outdo Oden in this arc.

If you buy Oden (and I do) then you accept that Luffy must pick up where Oden left off and definitively defeat Kaido. If he manages that with Momo, he will have overcome Oden and taken that much closer a step to being close to Roger level god-tier.

But literally none of that works unless you think Oden is a powerful dude. And a lotta ppl, maybe no so much here, seem to be confusing 'not liking' with 'not being powerful'.

Has Kaido been built up? Yes. But Oden is just that monstrous. And it's Luffy's job to approach going beyond that. Since we know Kaido has been bested, it shouldn't take anyone by surprise. I think just a lot of readers are sour on Oden and seeing a character they don't like doing something of that magnitude causes the sourness to overflow.

People don’t have a problem with Oden being strong, they have a problem with Kaido cheating. Different things

[Cockycent]

970 chapters in and you have a problem with a pirate being a pirate? The person he "cheated" against would've probably won if fairly fought too. Hence the perception of this disdain possibly stemming from the undermining of Oden. If you feel that Kaido, at his status back then, could beat Oden fairly, you are mistaken.

[Joy Boy]

@Cockycent:

970 chapters in and you have a problem with a pirate being a pirate? The person he "cheated" against would've probably won if fairly fought too. Hence the perception of this disdain possibly stemming from the undermining of Oden. If you feel that Kaido, at his status back then, could beat Oden fairly, you are mistaken.

You do realize Kaido is the same guy who had another Yonko tied with chains and decided to let her free in order to fight fairly ?

[HeartOfDarkness]

In the present time.

As well as that person being Kaidou's former crewmate.

Context is an actual thing.

[desa]

@Greg:

Has Kaido been built up? Yes. But Oden is just that monstrous. And it's Luffy's job to approach going beyond that. Since we know Kaido has been bested, it shouldn't take anyone by surprise. I think just a lot of readers are sour on Oden and seeing a character they don't like doing something of that magnitude causes the sourness to overflow.

It brings another problem that we didn't really know Oden prior to this flashback. We are still at the stage where he is building his image to the readers. So it seems odd to try hyping the more established character by having an ambiguous fight with a legend we never heard of and is from a bygone era. He doesn't feel like a good measuring stick since he is so untested and new. Instead Kaido feels like the measuring stick to know more of what to think of Oden.

[silver_planet]

@Joy:

You do realize Kaido is the same guy who had another Yonko tied with chains and decided to let her free in order to fight fairly ?

i think that is only because they both have history in the past and kaido confident enough to face her

unlike oden, which kaido also realize that they are at disadvantage considering hyogoro have so much manpower below him…

[Cockycent]

@Joy:

You do realize Kaido is the same guy who had another Yonko tied with chains and decided to let her free in order to fight fairly ?

Might just be me, but I get a weird big sister vibe going on there. I never feel like they're gonna kill each other. Just these big threats and if the other dies, oh well, they were just too weak anyway. It's consistent with the Rocks reputation of knocking each other off.

Also, Kaido is probably confident in handling her. He said to Oden that a bunch of years prior would've been easier to defeat him and noted how soft he was. Not weak, soft. He was well aware of Oden's "weakness" compared to his own brutal history where cewmates were killing each other off (ch 957)

[YoungWhite]

@Joy:

People don’t have a problem with Oden being strong, they have a problem with Kaido cheating. Different things

There's no such thing as fair and unfair in a fight. This is something that's been pointed out several times in the series. Was it cheating when Akainu convinced Squardo to stab Whitebeard? No. Was it cheating when Kizaru used sea stone on Marco when he was off-guard? No. Was it cheating when Aokiji froze Jozu when he was distracted?No.

This is war, anything goes. It's not possible to "cheat" in war. In fact, it's something you're supposed to do. There's so many things that have happened that can be construed as "cheating", you all just cherry pick what you want to be mad at.

[uniaka ikuzakas]

It's more about that 1vs1 air, land, water he is the strongest that no way I can trust that now. Not that it's the first title that I can question, was wb still strongest with his old age and disease? Is warlord mihawk above yonkous like shanks and bm because they use swods and mihawk is wss? Is vegapunk really the best scientist or is it ceasar clown or judge?

[wolfwood]

@uniaka:

Not that it's the first title that I can question, was wb still strongest with his old age and disease? Is warlord mihawk above yonkous like shanks and bm because they use swods and mihawk is wss? Is vegapunk really the best scientist or is it ceasar clown or judge?

Is Greg a super teacher? These are all things we must question.

[Kaworu]

I personally don't have any issue with 970, thought it was quite awesome.

The obvious issue WOULD be Higurashi faking being Momo. But, from what I can tell, Kaido never asked her to do that. She just did it to secure Kaido's victory, and he opportunistically took advantage.

I'm also one of those who does not think the Kaido of decades ago was as strong as current Kaido, and this has dialogue support from Sengoku. You can try to say all Sengoku meant was Kaido and Big Mom got one flat increase in strength from the ROCKS days, but I highly doubt that, it's more natural for it to be gradual.

There's still gonna be an immense struggle against Kaido completely dwarfing any we've seen so far, and that's all I need. I already knew he had a scar. It took an admiral-ish level opponent to give it to him. Now I'm ready to see what it takes to defeat a likely stronger present Kaido.

[Sengokusgoat]

Well I don't really have a reason to question Kaido being the strongest guy alive in the present. Although I think Oda has clearly established that Roger and Young Whitebeard were a step above him with their crazy 'weapons don't even touch' clash, as opposed to the Yonko 'just' splitting the sky when they clash, among other things.

[Kaworu]

@Sengokusgoat:

Well I don't really have a reason to question Kaido being the strongest guy alive in the present. Although I think Oda has clearly established that Roger and Young Whitebeard were a step above him with their crazy 'weapons don't even touch' clash, as opposed to the Yonko 'just' splitting the sky when they clash, among other things.

I actually don't totally believe Kaido IS the strongest right now. But I've read his intro boxes many times very carefully.

A Pirate King level seems to exist, thanks to that WB/Roger clash, and yup I do believe he's weaker than the prime versions of both. Just shows that even as strong as Yonkou are, there are still further heights.

[maxterdexter]

Took one good hit == Job?

I can’t get on with that math.

[wolfwood]

@maxterdexter:

Took one good hit == Job?

I can’t get on with that math.

I know this is old hat but i never cease to be amazed by how differently a simple set of images can be read by two different people. Like i can't look at those pages and not think Kaido is jobbing to Oden to make him look cool. And ya'll know how i feel about using established characters as hype tools, but beyond that the thought swirling through my mind is why? What purpose does it serve the story to have Oden crap on Kaido as his final act. Is there going to be a pay-off to this that off-sets the loss of face the villain took? Do any of ya'll have any good takes on what value this choice could contribute with down the line?

[Kdom]

@HeartOfDarkness:

Right, because Kaidou came outta his mother's womb and became the world's strongest creature 2 seconds into his life and not something he became over time….....

Like the difference between Luffy first chapter and Luffy in 900+ chapter.....Because......the ....concept....of ....time......exists......and.....characters.....can......become....stronger......and ......gain....more.....experience.

Actually since Oden and Big Mum were that kind of creatures, I would not be surprised if Kaidou was a baby monster too.
This excuse of time made Kaidou stronger is a bit of rhetorical thinking in a story where the heroes have instant power up. It will take 10 days for Luffy to go from the stage "I'm 1 hit KO by Kaidou" to "I'm able to defeat the strongest Yonkou"
I'm not really sure we should think power level evolution in such a logic way. Oda seems not to care to much about it as long as the story is fun.

For me, he made Kaidou lost in a treachorous way because he didn't want Oden to lose.

[Ukimix]

@Greg:

Wow! Hot topic!!!!

Kudos to all of you. You're bringing real points up and not just saying you don't like it because 'you're not feeling it'.

This is what I mean about people possibly underhyping Oden.

In some cases I believe that sentiment stems from the perplexing anti-Oden movement. I've enjoyed the fellow from the start, understood way before any of this that Oda was setting him up to be Herculean, and read the signs of what it meant that if a lazy-ass out-of-practice thug like Ashura who can pummel Jack in a second bows down to Oden, then yeah, Oden is a veritable wrecking ball.

In essence, it's Luffy's job to outdo Oden in this arc.

If you buy Oden (and I do) then you accept that Luffy must pick up where Oden left off and definitively defeat Kaido. If he manages that with Momo, he will have overcome Oden and taken that much closer a step to being close to Roger level god-tier.

But literally none of that works unless you think Oden is a powerful dude. And a lotta ppl, maybe no so much here, seem to be confusing 'not liking' with 'not being powerful'.

Has Kaido been built up? Yes. But Oden is just that monstrous. And it's Luffy's job to approach going beyond that. Since we know Kaido has been bested, it shouldn't take anyone by surprise. I think just a lot of readers are sour on Oden and seeing a character they don't like doing something of that magnitude causes the sourness to overflow.

The thing is: does it work if you think Oden is not a smart dude? …

Well, if we consider how smart Luffy is maybe it does... :happy:

[Greg]

It brings another problem that we didn't really know Oden prior to this flashback.

Maybe this is just me and because I read OP with a microscope but I feel like I've known Oden for years.

This is not meant to thwart anyone but it's how Oden has been constructed in my mind over the years.

-Kinnemon is a nut, but he's also a demon with a sword. Anytime you think back on what Kinnemon did, you knew he was doing it for Kaido, that Momo probably wasn't his kid, and everything 4e did, he did out of respect for Momo's dad, that builds Oden. Ftr, even though I didn't know his name, I assumed Kinnemon was acting on behalf of Momo' father from around 701.

-With the above in mind, this changes how one reads the bit about Kinnemon avenging for a father by killing the dragon. This further suggests that Momo's father died wrongly at the hands of a dragon.

-When we learned about the Zou-Wano connection, we learned that Dogstorm and Catviper were also doing everything, including risking their dukedom, for the sake of the family of a man they believe in. This also builds-up Oden and Dogstorm and Catviper are equivalent to one of Kaido's top three, which we could determine was a trio thanks to that Oda interview.

-When we got he quote from Oden at the time of his death, this showed us that regardless of what else we knew about his personality, he faced death without fear.

-In looking back on 701 (or 702 was it?) we also learned that Momo was probably utilized in part of his death by being threatened and taken to the sky by Kaido in a traumatic experience.

-We also learned that Kaido looked down on hi and thought him a fool. So obviously he had blindspots or weaknesses.

-The above-mentioned bit about Ashura further tells us what a beast Oden was in battle.

-We learn that his swords injured Kaido. We also know that Kaido has lost before.

All before his story unfolding in Kinnemon's flashback.

This entire time we've been learning about the dude albeit slowly, and the only thing Oda did this arc was give him a face. So, I've never gotten the impression thav we just met him or I don't know him. But that's me.

does it work if you think Oden is not a smart dude?

Oden? Nope. The people around him? Yup.

[Joy Boy]

I love Oden myself, I have no complain with his character. My gripe is how Oda has treated Kaido during this arc most of the time. This should have been a case of an extreme battle between Kaido and Oden with Kaido beating him cleanly.

[JohnTnaig]

Kaido is a jobber. Time to accept it and move on.

Hop on the Blackbeard train it's not too late.

[Kfunk]

After what Greg said I see what Oda wanted to do with Oden and I accept it better. Although personally I'm still not fond of the idea of using an arc boss like Kaido (whose selling point is being strong) as a tool to amplify Oden's legend (this how I feel it), a character that is gone anyway.

[Dylcor]

OH NO!!! The pirate CHEATED!! Kaido didnt hold a fake momo hostage tho… when exactly did he cheat?

[uniaka ikuzakas]

Well, oda did say kaidou is more like businessman then a pirate…

[Dylcor]

Kaido is introduced in chapter 795. In the chapter its stated that kaido has "tasted defeat as a pirate on seven occasions". While oda does have the narrator say "in a one on one fight always bet on kaido" that absolutely DOES NOT MEAN HE IS UNBEATABLE. Literally the page before where it says that suggests otherwise. Oda does build him up as the strongest creature in the world. Thats in there, but you have to remember we're looking at a completely different kaido. One with 20 less years of experience. Its not fair to treat him as though his strength then is equal to his strength a now. Whats actually most likely is that oden, former 2nd division commander of whitebeards crew and former member of the pirate kings crew, is close to kaido in terms of strength. Seeing a young kaido get damaged by such a legendary character, oden is absolutely legendary you cannot dispute this, can only diminish his strength and "hype as a character" if you completely ignore the context of everything else in the situation. A heavily damaged kaido one shotted a distracted, fatigued, damaged Oden. Who knows what would have happened if the old hag wasnt there, but it almost certainly is not as simple as "oden would have killed him". The time between kaido falling and him smacking oden isnt long at all. Its most likely under even 30 seconds, which is illustrated by the few, small, rather cramped together panels. its not like the lady stalled for minutes to let kaido regain consciousness. Whats the sense of thinking "what if it was a 1 on 1 fight and totally unlike an actual world where things didnt go on outside just the two people fighting" because… thats not what happened. It didnt happen differently it wont happen differently and if you're hung up on "UGH KAIDO WAS ONLY THIS STRONG 20 YEARS AGO !!! THAT MEANS HE SUCKS NOW" then idk what to tell you but maybe read naruto or something lol

[RomanceDawn]

New column, pretty cool!

https://one-piece.com/special/greg/detail/20200205_1115.html?l=en

[DarkWitch]

@uniaka:

Well, oda did say kaidou is more like businessman then a pirate…

When did Oda say that?

[maxterdexter]

That quote I don't recognize, but it kinda makes sense, as in whitebeard and big mom treat is as families (real and la cosa nostra respectively) shanks as a group of friends, and kaido having business links as valuable and vital as his crew.

Speaking of business partners, the podcast is having complications over the timeframe of the flashback and Kaido's aliances, dude at this time Caesar is probably getting his Evil Doctorate in WMD, not making smiles.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@wolfwood:

I know this is old hat but i never cease to be amazed by how differently a simple set of images can be read by two different people. Like i can't look at those pages and not think Kaido is jobbing to Oden to make him look cool. And ya'll know how i feel about using established characters as hype tools, but beyond that the thought swirling through my mind is why? What purpose does it serve the story to have Oden crap on Kaido as his final act. Is there going to be a pay-off to this that off-sets the loss of face the villain took? Do any of ya'll have any good takes on what value this choice could contribute with down the line?

Killing hope, as a survivor of a country that went to shit, I see too much of what happens in Wano as what happened in my country, it started with Shinobu's reaction and mistrust of everyone, but seeing a healthy wano that could never fall so low as we know it would happen.

Having this one chance that if Oden did this and killed him, even if it meant letting "Momo" die, things could turn ok. We go into a flashback with a set end, the pot of oden, but these characters are living this in the now. Not getting into their mindset now would be like not getting into the story at all because we know that Luffy will succeed-enough later.

[uniaka ikuzakas]

@DarkWitch:

When did Oda say that?

I think it was in one of magazines, can't find it in the sbs or vivre cards.

[DarkWitch]

@uniaka:

I think it was in one of magazines, can't find it in the sbs or vivre cards.

I checked the magazine which had info about the Beasts Pirates, and it doesn't mention Kaido being more like a businessman than a pirate. I think you got it confused with the Ace Novel in which it was said that Kaido is a gangster rather than a pirate, and that Big Mom prefers business.

[uniaka ikuzakas]

This post is deleted!

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@Daz:

How else can you interpret the chapter than "Oden was about to finish things, but got distracted and sucker punched"? You're acting as if - had the Old Hag not been there- Oden would give his big heroic declaration, strike the downed, bleeding Kaidou with all his might, and then I guess Kaidou would've gone "Ow!", gotten back up, and resumed fighting? Leaving Odens two page spread and big declaration rather awkward?

Uh… yes?

The way I feel this scene is similar to that one where Luffy goes Gear 3rd for the first time and punches Rob Lucci through a wall.

Lucci took a blow, all right. This helped show how strong Luffy had become at that point. But Lucci was far from defeated.

I don't think Kaido would just stay on the floor while Oden punched him. He was clearly capable to stand still two pages later. I don't think that wound is enough to take down someone like Kaidou, either. We have seem people like Luffy/Zoro/Sanji take bigger beatings during a fight and keep going. Just look at Luffy vs Katakuri.

All this scene shows is that someone was capable of injuring Kaidou and closing the gap. That Oden was someone who could damage Kaidou and who would have forced Kaido to go all out to defeat him. Something we already knew had happened, mind you, since this event has been mentioned before. And yet Oden still didn't win in the end, and 20 years later nobody else has even come close. That's not a "has never taken damage before" history, but it's still a pretty great one, and still looks like someone Luffy will have to grow a lot to be able to beat. He first has to get to the level where he can damage Kaidou (I guess it's where he is after armor haki training), and then to the point where he can beat Kaidou regardless of whatever mixed Zoan/awakening forms Kaidou is yet to show.

@JohnTnaig:

Kaido only got up because Oden was distracted. With no distraction Oden would have killed Kaido.

I find that a bit far-fetched because this is not the kind of manga where fighters make sure to keep punching downed opponents after they take hits, like in some MMA fight. Instead, this takes the more classic shounen path where after making an opponent fall to the ground, they wait for them to get up. See: every time someone landed a big blow on Luffy.

It's not the most realistic or tension-inducing way for a conflict to happen but it's how most shounen just go.

[Monquito]

Pretty sure Kaido is gon take hits from several characters not only Luffy before going down.

Its been said that there will be a Luffy vs Kaido vs Big Mom. Sounds like a free for all to me, not 2 vs 1.
Kidd have sworn vengange on Kaido
Tentatively Law will be in the ring as well
And Zoro's holding a sword that can damage The Dragon form of Kaido.

Newgate went down after tons of hits from different characters so I'm expecting something similar for Kaido.
And at the end of everyone bullying the kid with big horns, only Luffy standing out to deliver the finisher move.

[Jawad5]

Pretty sure this will be a parallel Zombie Oz fight where it's kaido vs the supernovas
ending with blackbeard (kuma) showing up at the very end

[maxterdexter]

This emperor clash is still missing two of them. I will not allow it.

[Monquito]

@Jawad5:

Pretty sure this will be a parallel Zombie Oz fight where it's kaido vs the supernovas
ending with blackbeard (kuma) showing up at the very end

Yeah, I got the feeling Apoo is acting up the whole thing of working for Kaido just so he would drag Kidd, Killer and Hawkings into switch target and forget about Shanks.

[Shiebs]

Do you guys think we'll ever see the other members of the Rox Pirates that they named Gold Lion, Silver Axe and Ochoku?

We know Captain John is dead, and I doubt we'll see Gold Lion since he was in a movie, but the others might appear right? Also I wouldn't be surprised if Bakkin and Shakky were part of Rocks at one point too

[Roronoa Zacho]

@Greg:

Maybe this is just me and because I read OP with a microscope but I feel like I've known Oden for years.

This is not meant to thwart anyone but it's how Oden has been constructed in my mind over the years.

-Kinnemon is a nut, but he's also a demon with a sword. Anytime you think back on what Kinnemon did, you knew he was doing it for Kaido, that Momo probably wasn't his kid, and everything 4e did, he did out of respect for Momo's dad, that builds Oden. Ftr, even though I didn't know his name, I assumed Kinnemon was acting on behalf of Momo' father from around 701.

-With the above in mind, this changes how one reads the bit about Kinnemon avenging for a father by killing the dragon. This further suggests that Momo's father died wrongly at the hands of a dragon.

-When we learned about the Zou-Wano connection, we learned that Dogstorm and Catviper were also doing everything, including risking their dukedom, for the sake of the family of a man they believe in. This also builds-up Oden and Dogstorm and Catviper are equivalent to one of Kaido's top three, which we could determine was a trio thanks to that Oda interview.

-When we got he quote from Oden at the time of his death, this showed us that regardless of what else we knew about his personality, he faced death without fear.

-In looking back on 701 (or 702 was it?) we also learned that Momo was probably utilized in part of his death by being threatened and taken to the sky by Kaido in a traumatic experience.

-We also learned that Kaido looked down on hi and thought him a fool. So obviously he had blindspots or weaknesses.

-The above-mentioned bit about Ashura further tells us what a beast Oden was in battle.

-We learn that his swords injured Kaido. We also know that Kaido has lost before.

All before his story unfolding in Kinnemon's flashback.

This entire time we've been learning about the dude albeit slowly, and the only thing Oda did this arc was give him a face. So, I've never gotten the impression thav we just met him or I don't know him. But that's me.

Oden? Nope. The people around him? Yup.

I wonder what your thoughts are with Oden's official intro (where he ate Oden on a crematory funeral corpse). In western Society we would call such an act "inappropriate" at least. Is this sth different in Japanese Society?