I don't believe I ever said they were against WG, I said they were fighting against the centralization of power, specifically the CDs (puppets themselves) and IMU (if they know about it). The ESs have not yet been established as CDs themselves and if they are that will change. Until then the fact remains that they have been portrayed as frustrated with those fighting against balance in the world while also suffering the emotional and psychological consequences of making horrific decisions. Not once have they appeared 'happy' or twirled their mustaches over the course of their appearances. I don't disagred that the Revolutionaries are in conflict with what the ESs attempt to protect, but that's different from them hating the ESs themselves. Based on currently available info, tha ESs for all intents and purposes seem to be five people trying to preserve a delicate balance to the best of their ability and it's Luffy's job to defy everything they think they know about unity among the peoples of the world.
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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I don't believe I ever said they were against WG, I said they were fighting against the centralization of power, specifically the CDs (puppets themselves) and IMU (if they know about it). The ESs have not yet been established as CDs themselves and if they are that will change. Until then the fact remains that they have been portrayed as frustrated with those fighting against balance in the world while also suffering the emotional and psychological consequences of making horrific decisions. Not once have they appeared 'happy' or twirled their mustaches over the course of their appearances. I don't disagred that the Revolutionaries are in conflict with what the ESs attempt to protect, but that's different from them hating the ESs themselves. Based on currently available info, tha ESs for all intents and purposes seem to be five people trying to preserve a delicate balance to the best of their ability and it's Luffy's job to defy everything they think they know about unity among the peoples of the world.
I believe this page makes it very clear that the Gorousei are Celestial Dragons themselves. https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/one-piece-2/en/0/907/page/9
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If Toki died, the fact remains that said fruit would have been 'returned'.
If -for example- Komurasaki has eaten it (she was being carried by Kawamatsu underwater) it's possible that she performed such an action in dire straights. That's under the assumption that Oda won't have yet another woman flip-flop-flip again.
While I think there are some interesting factors at play here, not the least of which is the so-called traitor, I'm not sure if time is one of them in this particular case.
As for the Revered Stars…
Why on earth do so many people take what Oda writes as absolute 100% truth?
It's literally his job to fool/surprise us.
"They're said to be the highest authority in the world so they have to be the highest authority in the world."
What? No, no that's not true at all.
From the perspective of the people they are. And as readers, we're both 10 steps removed from common OP world knowledge in addition to being 10 steps ahead in other aspects.
There are times when Oda presents information that could be a half-truth or even blatant lie (or something he hasn't worked out yet) and he can completely flip that on its head at a moment's notice.
I'm standing by what I've been saying for over a decade now regarding their humanity, they're doing bad things for a 'good' reason. The Revered Stars are acting in the interest of protecting as much of humanity as they can while placating IMU. They must do horrific things in the name of sparing hundreds of millions of lives from….whatever IMU is/has/controls. That is to say, they realize the futility of rebelling against IMU. They're probably remarkable badasses in their own right, but they know firsthand how impossible it is to overcome IMU.
Which is why our crew will do it.
I think this was hinted at when the Gorosei were shown to be in pain when ordering the execution of Clover and Ohara
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I believe this page makes it very clear that the Gorousei are Celestial Dragons themselves. https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/one-piece-2/en/0/907/page/9
It only says they have the highest authority, not that they're CDs themselves.
Whether they are CDs or not still remains to be seen and they very well may be by either blood or honorary. But as Miyamoto mentioned, that scene where they react to Ohara is crucial to their character. What they have to do clearly doesn't let them sleep well at night. If not for IMU, I actually believe they would side with Dragon's sentiment.
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It only says they have the highest authority, not that they're CDs themselves.
Interesting, this is what the official release says:
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Dunno if this was mentioned before but i noticed this while re-reading Wano arc thus far: back when we met Koby and Alvida, Koby ended up fighting "the most beautiful woman in the world" (according to Alvida) and now he'll be fighting the REAL "most beautiful woman in the world" when he faces Boa Hancock.
https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/one-piece-2/en/0/956/page/15
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Interesting, this is what the official release says:
It only says they have the highest authority, not that they're CDs themselves.
Whether they are CDs or not still remains to be seen and they very well may be by either blood or honorary. But as Miyamoto mentioned, that scene where they react to Ohara is crucial to their character. What they have to do clearly doesn't let them sleep well at night. If not for IMU, I actually believe they would side with Dragon's sentiment.
Yes, I had the official translation in mind, although the phrase "at the helm of the celestial dragons" in Jaiminibox also implies that the Gorousei are Tenryuubito, in my opinion.
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I wonder if all five had Opi Opi immortal operation on them in their respective eras.
They were willing to pay 5 billion for the fruit. According to Dofla he could 'control' the national treasure of MJ with immortal body. That means it was 'done' before or still being 'done'. Whether the said 'treasure' and Imu are the same thing is questionable though, since later rather 'controls' others.
Or Dofla only knew the half truth. -
I wonder if all five had Opi Opi immortal operation on them in their respective eras.
They were willing to pay 5 billion for the fruit. According to Dofla he could 'control' the national treasure of MJ with immortal body. That means it was 'done' before or still being 'done'. Whether the said 'treasure' and Imu are the same thing is questionable though, since later rather 'controls' others.
Or Dofla only knew the half truth.He didn't say he needed eternal youth (Which is not immortality) to control the treasure, just the fruit itself. He didn't specify what ability it was, but personally I thought he was referring to the personality transplant ability. Like eternal youth is useful for obvious reasons, but swapping bodies with Imu seemed to be what he was getting at. I dunno, I just don't think it's a coincidence that he only singled out those two abilities.
Granted it's not confirmed that Imu is the treasure, but it's the only way I can currently make sense of why Doffy would need that particular DF. Just felt like the giant straw hat was a red herring.
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Yes, I had the official translation in mind, although the phrase "at the helm of the celestial dragons" in Jaiminibox also implies that the Gorousei are Tenryuubito, in my opinion.
I read the Japanese version and I believe the word Oda used is "天竜人の最上位" which is exactly the same as the official translation. So I believe it's pretty clear that the elders are CD themselves unless Oda pulls something like "they are actually not CD but people serving them don't know that".
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He didn't say he needed eternal youth (Which is not immortality) to control the treasure, just the fruit itself. He didn't specify what ability it was, but personally I thought he was referring to the personality transplant ability. Like eternal youth is useful for obvious reasons, but swapping bodies with Imu seemed to be what he was getting at. I dunno, I just don't think it's a coincidence that he only singled out those two abilities.
Granted it's not confirmed that Imu is the treasure, but it's the only way I can currently make sense of why Doffy would need that particular DF. Just felt like the giant straw hat was a red herring.
Yeah, that makes sense because that ability has yet to have a real justification for its existence.
The giant Straw Hat also works as a red herring because the scene happened just after Doflamingo went on his rant in Impel Down, so of course the audience would assume the mysterious item inside a secret vault would be the secret treasure he was talking about. But then twist! The important thing is not the hat, it's the person looking at it.
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I read the Japanese version and I believe the word Oda used is "天竜人の最上位" which is exactly the same as the official translation. So I believe it's pretty clear that the elders are CD themselves unless Oda pulls something like "they are actually not CD but people serving them don't know that".
Exactly my point.
Unless we know they descend from a specific family it's still possible they're not actually from one of the original founding families.
And even if they are, my original point remains that even if the Revolutionaries are at war with CDs, the CDs are not simply the one-dimensional mustache-twirlers they were originally introduced as. The Nefertali family made the choice to be Lawful Good and revoked whatever tough choices had to be made to appease IMU. Those who remained, depending on if they were 'in the know' about IMU, made true/chaotic neutral choices to protect majority by sacrificing minority for a 'greater purpose'. Even if they are original descendants of founding families, while the Revolutionaries may be a war with the system they maintain, it still doesn't mean the end game is 'kill the ESs'. Then what? However, I admit that, that hinges on whether or not the Revolutionaries actually know about IMU or not.
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I dare not even hope that the elder stars can be salvaged from this Imu disaster. But i'll always be team they are grayzoned in my heart
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I was rather happy with the reveal that not all CDs were comical idiots like the Roswald family. You got the donquixotes who run from naively good to sadist, to the gorosei and so forth.
Its a wide spectrum. One major thing which bothered me about the nobles in the Goa flashback. -
I don't understand how the official translation being "[…] the five elders, who are th most high-ranking of Celestial Dragons" can mean anything other than that they are Tenryuubito themselves.
Anyway, it's clear that the WG brings good things to the table, like international order and the Marines, but the design of the current system is also fundamentally unjust, because the World Nobles are above the law and they are allowed to act in self-interest without checks and balances. As a matter of fact, since the 17th century in the real world, political science argues that this system leads to abuse of power and constitutes a violation of freedom. Inside the story, we've seen examples of (1) slavery, (2) abusive taxation, (3) major scandalous events like Ohara and Flevance, and (4) Oda is constantly making the argument that this political structure leads to extreme inequality between the top and the bottom (as an example, Goa Kingdom is a microrepresentation of the big picture). The situation is so out of control that Charlos tried to kidnap princess Shirahoshi in the middle of the Reverie and he was allowed to do it according to the law, and the kings of the world were so frightened that they didn't do anything to stop him.
It has also been established that the Marines top priority is to protect the Celestial Dragons, which says more than enough about the system.
Making the current system fair without overthroning the Tenryuubito would happen only if the Tenryuubito accepted to resign from their privileges, which won't happen in the story because it won't. The Celestial Dragons see themselves as "gods" entitled to their unlimited power, and 800 years of history with this inflated ego won't let them give up on their status. Maybe part of the argument is that this system of privileges corrupts the soul of the ruler.
It's not that the 20 founding kings of the WG were completely wrong when they decided to create the WG in the past, but that things went off the rails because they didn't resist to become "owners of the world".
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I don't understand how the official translation being "[…] the five elders, who are th most high-ranking of Celestial Dragons" can mean anything other than that they are Tenryuubito themselves.
There's still wiggle room in there. Are they official dragons? Honorary? By blood or by work? Picked by someone? Were they in the original group hundreds of years ago or are they newer? What does it take to get that rank?
Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world but Kaidou is the strongest beast, so who was stronger? Mihawk is the greatest swordsman but he doesn't bother fighting Shanks anymore, but does that mean Mihawk is stronger than Shanks or just that Shanks isn't as good a swordsman as he used to be? Blackbeard when he met Luffy said you have great spirit, but it turns out that word would later also mean Haki! Wanda said all the strawhats were just bones, but she only meant Brook!
etc. etc. Until something is settled in stone, there's leeway for it to be a bit different than it first seems, regardless of the seemingly obvious narration.
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There's still wiggle room in there. Are they official dragons? Honorary? By blood or by work? Picked by someone? Were they in the original group hundreds of years ago or are they newer? What does it take to get that rank?
Well, at least you are recognizing that they are Celestial Dragons and not something else. Anyway, I understand your argument that it may not be by blood, but that's very speculative and beyond the definition that the manga has established of the Celestial Dragons, the descendents of the founding kings of the WG. Anyway, I can also raise two other issues: (a) if the Gorousei were promoted to CDs, how would they be "the most high-ranking Celestial Dragons" instead of low-ranking CDs with bureacratic jobs?; (b) why does it matter for a thematic analysis if they are CDs for a different reason? Wouldn't they still represent the same flag and the same people?
Don't get me wrong, I hope to see more of the Gorousei in the future to understand better their characters in particular. There's a lot of room for interesting developments and nuances that are more complicated.
I just disagree with the notion that the Gorousei are not Celestial Dragons, or that they have a different agenda that is not in line with the self-interest of the CDs, or that the Revolutionaries wouldn't be against the Gorousei by default.
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Nineteen years ago we didn't know Luffy had a brother.
Eighteen years ago we knew Ace was Luffy's brother.
Fourteen years ago we found out who Luffy's father and grandfather were.
Eleven years ago we knew Ace wasn't related to Luffy and actually the son of Roger.
Nine years ago we knew Luffy had a second brother.
We still don't know anything about Luffy's mother.And that's the MAIN CHARACTER.
None of this contradicts what we knew before. But it was further details we the audience didn't have, even though we THOUGHT we had a full clear picture of something that seemed simple and straightforward. . Until we didn't.
Heck, we've only recently gotten things like Imu and Rocks shaking things up and messing with the narrative we thought we had a clear understanding of now.
Are Sabo and Ace Luffy's brothers? Is Nojiko Nami's sister and Bellemere her mother? Is Koby technically a pirate since he started on a pirate crew? Is Sanji's father Zeff or some asshole in a mask?
In a series that is ALL ABOUT the family you choose being more important than blood, consistently, as a running theme since the series' start? And also has a long running mystery of a bloodline with the whole D. thing?
Yes, it's absolutely important to question things like "are those guys there by blood or by choice or by circumstance. Are they actually what they seem." You can't take a seemingly straightforward text box for granted on something like that.
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Well, I find it perfectly normal to assume them CDs until further clarifications.Known information and conjectures are two different things. Wording was pretty clear of what Oda wanted us to believe,for now.
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So we are discussing wether or not the Gorousei are CDs, because once one of them showed resentment towards the destruction of Ohara?
Thats ok. But Right before another gorousei ordered Clover's death.
And they took the Nefertaris as traitors, cause they decided to stay in the lower world and asked unpleasant Questions.
Of Course, they seem more reasonable than your average scumbag-CD, but Maybe this underlines the speculation of them being waaay older than the average scumbag-CD.
Pappugg once said all that power and being worshipped for 800yrs made the CDs go completely bonkers.
So we have to consider that the original 20 founding kings weren't as scumbaggish as the CDs are now. Wapol's dad wasn't as cruel as his son (at least from what i took of ch. 0).
I think what Wapol said during the Reverie can be quoted here as well: "The higher you go up, the more you notice how f'd up this world is".
We also witness what power does with People over a Long period of time (CDs riding humans and so on).
There are good CDs out there though. Homing and Myosgard.
We haven't enough insight into MJ yet to say wether or not the gorousei are CDs, but if there have been 20 kings, you can assume there had to be some Kind of inner core of those 20 kings.I mean, yeah, the gorousei could talk their heads out of Trouble once Things will go south for them. But guys, once Dragon finds out how the travelator works, they are screwed.
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Robby, everything you say would make sense until chapter 907. The dialogue reveals that the Gorousei ARE Celestial Dragons. I'm not talking about my personal guess, but about an information given by the chapter. Saying that the Gorousei are not Celestial Dragons is like saying something random like Garp is not Luffy's grandfather.
As auem just said, there is a difference between information and conjecture. We can sit here and say a lot of wild stuff that could be true or false, but for now we have a very literal box of information that we have no reason to dismiss. Sometimes we have evidence to doubt a given information, but for now nothing contradicts that the Gorousei are Celestial Dragons.
And I'm not here denying the nuances that Oda may be saving for their characters. I'm open to any development that gives more depth to the Gorousei and the Tenryuubito. Oda can talk about their blood, about their personal circunstance to rise to that higher position, about their immortality, and even put the Gorousei as the good guys for protecting the world against worse villains. I'm not rejecting any of this. Once again and for the last time, I'm just saying that we've seen that they are Celestial Dragons and that they stand for their people.
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What would be cool to witness would be the WG's attempt of another cleansing.
Sakazuki said they don't have the forces to deal with the situation on Wano.
Coby also stated that sth big is going on and by context he can't just mean capturing the warlords. -
People keep saying things about luffys mom with Dadan there just doing bandit things. Luffys birth mom is probably dead, so she has around the same participation as Dragon in luffys life. Garp, Dadan, Ace, Sabo, the bandits, the villagers, those were luffys family, no matter how much of a mistery Oda wants to make his birth mom.
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People keep saying things about luffys mom with Dadan there just doing bandit things. Luffys birth mom is probably dead, so she has around the same participation as Dragon in luffys life. Garp, Dadan, Ace, Sabo, the bandits, the villagers, those were luffys family, no matter how much of a mistery Oda wants to make his birth mom.
Why make it a mystery if she's been dead all along? One line would have covered that.
Instead it's likely going to be a huge plot point. Ace's mother didn't have any participation in his life either. But without her sacrifice…
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Why make it a mystery if she's been dead all along? One line would have covered that.
Instead it's likely going to be a huge plot point. Ace's mother didn't have any participation in his life either. But without her sacrifice…
This reminds me that Dragon witnessed Roger's execution and (probably) said to Luffy's mother:
"C'mon, let's make the next pirate king!" Took a few years and shots though. XD -
Robby, everything you say would make sense until chapter 907. The dialogue reveals that the Gorousei ARE Celestial Dragons. I'm not talking about my personal guess, but about an information given by the chapter. Saying that the Gorousei are not Celestial Dragons is like saying something random like Garp is not Luffy's grandfather.
The dialogue in ALabasta also reveals that Ace is Luffy's brother.
It doesn't reveal that's adopted brother, who their fathers are, or that there is a third brother.
Arlong was unleashed on East Blue by that shichibukai monster Jinbe. Oh wait, it wasn't like that at all.
CP-9 was the ultimate secret branch of government fighters. Oh wait, there's also a CP-0.
The elder stars are the head of the world. Oh wait, there's Im.
Haki is a thing that exists. Oh, that's actually tied into a bunch of other abilities we saw along the way!Just because you are given a detail doesn't mean you are given the whole story. And especially when that handful of characters acts very different from all the others we have seen?
Okay, the text says they are celestial dragons. But… are they Ancient Celestial Dragons? Are they Fake Celestial Dragons? Do they predate the current crop? Do they actually have the bloodline or just the title?
Luffys birth mom is probably dead,
What makes you say that?
She may not have had any part in Luffy's life, and Dadan is clearly the unofficial adopted mother which is all that counts but… nothing implies that she is dead beyond not being with Dragon at the moment.
SHould we also have assumed that Sanji's father was dead and he had no siblings just because they were never seen until they were? We know Franky's father was a pirate and nothing else, so what does that mean?
There is a TON we just don't actually know.
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It's totally cool mate, didn't mean you or anyone here in particular.
Unless there's something I'm forgetting, the goal of the Revolutionaries isn't specifically about a beef with the Stars. It's about uniting people against the establishment of a centralized system of authority, an authority which is probably in place to spare life on the planet. Depends how much Dragon does/doesn't knoz about the world but I believe he's an optimist who thinks that once united, ppl can overcome whatever IMU is/has. The Stars have probably experienced first-hand what IMU is capable of and believe in their heart of hearts that appeasing it is the only way.
Enter Luffy.
"What? I don't care who or what you are, don't interrupt my adventure!"
Sorry, this is a much longer post than I intended. A lot of speculation / theories. If you want, you can skip over a lot, but I do have an actual question in the last paragraph. It’s sort of predicated on some of the stuff I talked about in previous parts of the post, however.
Ah okay, cool. Anyway, I agree that the Elders will be three dimensional characters, not mustache twirling villains. Their ultimate motivation is yet to be seen. I think the ideas you have mentioned are certainly a possibility. As I had said in my previous post, in the past I really didn't expect the Elders to be Celestial Dragons themselves based on their battle scars. I had imagined them more like high ranking parliamentary members (sort of like the relationship between a monarch and prime minister). Admittedly, that is still a possibility as you have pointed out. However, after seeing the description of their position in Reverie and learning more about the Donquixote Family, I lean toward them actually being Celestial Dragons. If they were all shown to be inbred morons like St. Charlos, I would lean the other way. However, given that some of the Celestial Dragons rational, I think it's less likely they would cede any authority in terms of Governance to lesser nobles or ordinary citizens. They seem to limit such people to military / service positions within the World Gov.
I think the questions largely hinge upon how many people know about Imu.
Like, if I can speculate, I would say that the original 20(19) Kings made a pact with Imu to topple the Lost Civilization during the void century. Maybe they knew, maybe they didn't about Imu's ultimate goal or intention. Going with your theory about the Elders motivation, I could see it as the 20 Kings didn't really know who / what they were really dealing with and ultimately chose poorly. For most of the current Celestials, ignorance is bliss, while a select few are fully cognizant of what is going on. I have some theories about who / what Imu could be, but it's a bit beyond the scope of what we're discussing here - and there really isn't any strong evidence.
I used to think the D's were descendants of the Lost Civilization, but I think that's less likely now. If they were, and that was understood by those in power, I imagine they would be hunted down and killed like Jedi during the rule of the Empire. Yet it is a name that clearly holds meaning. Rocinante called them the enemies of the 'gods' (the false gods - the Celestial Dragons), but that meaning would seem to be not fully known or understood by those in power. It was hinted that Sengoku might know more.
Rather, I think the D’s are likely related to Joy Boy. Maybe there are different family names because there was a crew of pirates / adventurers who weren't part of the 20 Kings or the Lost Civilization (or a group of people from around the world, including a giant from Elbaf, which could possibly have also contained members of both warring factions) - a group in the middle who tried to stop the war and save the world, but were ultimately unsuccessful. Maybe the descendants of that group of people are the D's. Maybe there was an original Monkey, Gol, Portgas, Jaguar, Marshall, Trafalgar, Rocks, etc. who tried to stop whatever happened in the void century, but failed. They later took on the D. as a secret name symbolizing their friendship and their will to one day set things right. They worked with the Kozuki clan to pass on their message through the Poneglyphs and left the stones with allies around the world (Shandora, Fishman Island, Alabasta, etc.). Ultimately, One Piece is the key to stopping Imu, left to the proper successor who will 'shoulder centuries of history', to set the world right. Roger discovered that truth, but was also ultimately unsuccessful.
Rayleigh hints that they made an attempt to challenge the world (“perhaps we were too hasty”). I call this my ‘Roger Incident’ theory, but I think there’s one critical question which leads credence to the idea that there is a major event in which Roger played his hand and tried, but failed. Why do the people in the world of One Piece know the treasure as One Piece? We know that the name has actual significance as Oda has stated. Roger did not call it One Piece at his execution. So not only do we have to ask the question, ‘why is it called One Piece?’, but also ‘how does the world know to call the treasure One Piece?’. I believe that name became known when Roger challenged the world, but was ultimately unsuccessful. Playing his hand made the Elders aware of the knowledge he possessed, branding him and anyone who ever associated with him a criminal worthy of death. I believe this incident is also where he spoke the bit about freedom, dreams, and inherited will which Dragon quotes in Chapter 100. Perhaps this is the event which sparked revolutionary sentiment in a young Monkey D. Dragon? I’ve also got a feeling something happened between Luffy’s grandmother and the Celestial Dragons. It would explain why both Garp and Dragon hate the Celestial Dragons and could also explain why Dragon has hidden Luffy’s mother from the world. Maybe.
Back to the point…
This is obviously, entirely conjecture. What I imagine is as follows:
-Lost Civilization possesses the ancient weapons Pluton, Poseidon, and Uranus. Really interesting now that we know Poseidon was the Mermaid Princess of the time. "Possess" doesn't necessarily mean ownership. Could have been an alliance
-Right or wrong (jury's out; will have to learn more to know for certain), they were viewed as a threat; Largely because of the ancient weapons
-The 20 Kings banded together to wipe out the civilization. I lean toward there being some legitimacy to the threat they posed based on the fact that the Alabastan monarch of the time agreed to the alliance which wiped out the civilization and formed the world Government, but declined to join the Celestial Dragons on Marijoa. It is, however, possible that Imu instigated indirectly or misled some or all of the 20 Kings regarding the danger posed by the Lost Civilization. Again, jury is out, but I am open to the idea that even though they are the victims of whatever atrocity birthed the World Gov and is covered over by the void century, the Lost Civilization weren't necessarily the 'good guys' lost to history as had been my preconceived notion during the CP9 saga.
-My speculation is that the 20 Kings allied with Imu, but initially didn't really understand the entity with whom they joined. They found out when whatever happened that made them void out 100 years of history happened.
-19 of the 20 decided to go along with Imu and live as gods above mortal men in the Holy Land Marijoa, while 1 family declined. We're supposed to be attached to the Nefertari family as particularly noble given our investment in Vivi as a character. Thus, this would sort of signify to readers that the Lost Civilization was doing something wrong and needed to be stopped, but the methods used by the 20 Kings were also wrong and that joining them to live as gods would have been the immoral choice.
-The Nefertari ruler thought it was the right thing to stop the Lost Civilization, but the wrong thing to join the Celestial Dragons in Marijoa. This allows for a mixture of motives in the Celestial Dragons. It could be a degree of fear of Imu's true power, as you indicated. It could also be that they legitimately viewed themselves as gods. I think that there has to be some element of the latter, at least on the part of the original 20 Kings / rulers as that sentiment has been passed on to their descendants. More on that in a later point.
-Joy Boy and his group were in the middle; The heroes of the void century. They failed, but their will lives on. They took on the name D. and have passed their will through the generations. They are the enemies of the 'gods' in Marijoa. Hence, as simple as it is, I think the D. stands for Devil. If the devils in Marijoa call themselves gods, then their enemies, the heroes of the story, will call themselves devils.
I also think that perhaps the devil fruit were created using souls of people and that their origin is likely during the void century. Whether they are creations of Imu or the Lost Civilization remains to be seen. Maybe Imu created them from the lost civilization.
My theory is that the Devil Fruit were created by Imu as the means of destroying the Lost Civilization. They were made from living people's souls (explaining the myth of the souls of the fruit battling inside a person if two are eaten which Jabra tells during Enies Lobby), maybe the horrific act which caused the Nefertari ruler to back out. But Imu, the devil posing as a god, is a trickster. He gave them the power to wipe out the civilization, but ultimately they're mortal beings. When they die, the power of the fruit is lost and regrows elsewhere in the world. The soul of the fruit passes to another user and is distributed randomly throughout the world. Thus, the Celestial Dragons were a useful tool to help Imu climb to his current position, but they could not keep the power, else they become a threat. Their power was thus distributed, randomly, to the world precipitating centuries of fighting.-800 Years pass; Maybe the modern Celestial Dragons have lost their history, same as the world. They are entitled, spoiled, child-like monsters who treat the world and the people like their property. They aren't any more aware of the atrocities of the Void century than the average citizen. They're the epitome of inherited wealth / status in that they have been raised to consider themselves gods and carry themselves as such. They would have no reason to question why they should regard themselves as gods as it is all they have ever known. There are likely a select few involved in Governance (the Elders), who are privileged with information regarding Imu and the history of the world. The reason I lean toward them being Celestials themselves is because there are some who have shown a degree of rationality (Homing, Doflamingo, etc.) If they've got the 'talent' in house, I can't see them ceding any authority to an outside power.
What leads me to believe that Imu is privileged information within Marijoa is Doflamingo's comments regarding the secret treasure of Marijoa. Thus, my comparison to Kaido and Orochi. Orochi rules Wano, yes, but only because Kaido had the power to take over the country in the first place. Kaido needs Wano to work toward his own goals, while Orochi rules over the people of Wano. I think the Celestials are similarly granted authority by the power Imu possesses.So let's say that only a few are allowed into the inner circle and privileged with full knowledge of history. Perhaps it's sobering to learn of the power that Imu possesses. They are tasked then with governance as Imu works toward his goals. Their response then could be, as you said, to try to preserve as many lives as they can. Going with this logic, perhaps they know that Imu will take drastic action if the world descends into chaos, and thus try to maintain order. Second option is that Imu needs the world balanced and they work to maintain the world as Imu desires it to be. Either way, I believe Imu poses an active threat to the world. Whether it is the possibility that whatever atrocity occurred in the void century will be repeated or another, even greater event, it has to be something that Luffy will want to take action in order to prevent or reverse. Also possible, they’re true believers with sincere faith in Imu. If they are indeed Celestials themselves, they could view themselves as gods, same as the rest of their cohort. In which case, perhaps they preserve peace with the understanding that whenever Imu does what he’s ultimately planning, the Celestial Dragons will be benevolently allowed to share in the spoils, granted immortality or true godhood by their Lord and Savior Imu. Or a combination of different motives. There are five of them. It would be interesting if their perspectives and core desires differed. EDIT: What if they're 'Elders' because they're the last of the original 20 Kings, still living after all this time? Maybe only a handful of the 20 Kings actually knew about Imu at the time the World Gov. was founded and the current Elders are their direct descendants, head of the five inner circle families? Just a thought…
I feel like, this being fundamentally a pirate adventure story, it would make thematic sense for Joy Boy to be the proto-Roger as Roger is the proto-Luffy. The question of what / who Imu is, really is a mystery though. Could Imu be the sea devil, a common theme in pirate / seafaring stories? There could be a connection to the original 'cursed' Vander Decken given the relevance of Joy Boy and the Mermaid Princess to his story. Could Imu be related to the moon people? Maybe they're all related through the history of the world? Joy Boy could have been someone who sought freedom. Maybe there’s some connection to Pirate / Beehive / Hachinosu / Fullalead Island? Maybe Imu was once just a person, who made a deal with the devil (not so likely imo; I think Imu is more supernatural)? In any case, Joy Boy and a crew of pirates /adventurers standing up against overwhelming odds, forming bonds with people around the world, against an unstoppable evil force seeking to crush people’s dreams would be totally in line with the Roger and Straw Hat Pirates.
To that point, I want to ask you a question Greg. I re-read the entire series this past summer and noticed that the calendar year in One piece is placed in the 'Age of Kaien'. It's interesting, because calendars in stories often mark year 0 in the current epoch on the calendar based on a world changing event. In our world, for example, the birth of Christ was considered such a monumental event. It's interesting because the calendar year in One Piece is currently 1500 something. Noland sailed in the year 1100 something, which was 400 years before the current story. Meaning, the void century occurred between the years 600 - 700 in the Age of Kaien. The World Gov was founded around year 700. Zunesha has been walking for 1000 years, starting around the year 500. What's notable is that, in the world of One Piece, whatever event marks year 0 is considered so important, that even the birth of the World Government, ruled by people who consider themselves literal gods among men, was not significant enough to restart the dating system. They voided out 100 years of history and still didn't start history anew. You would think a missing century would be even easier to hide if the calendar year started with the birth of the Gov. If Zunesha is related in some way to Imu, it would make sense that Imu was alive even further back than the void century. Do you think there is any significance to the 'Age of Kaien' dating system? What could this name 'Kaien' signify? I think the fact that the dating system goes back before the void century and the fact that Zunesha’s origins, likely also a key piece of information, mean that whatever is happening in the One Piece world extends further back in history before the void century, as critical as that period of time is to establishing the current world order.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
The dialogue in ALabasta also reveals that Ace is Luffy's brother.
It doesn't reveal that's adopted brother, who their fathers are, or that there is a third brother.
Arlong was unleashed on East Blue by that shichibukai monster Jinbe. Oh wait, it wasn't like that at all.
CP-9 was the ultimate secret branch of government fighters. Oh wait, there's also a CP-0.
The elder stars are the head of the world. Oh wait, there's Im.
Haki is a thing that exists. Oh, that's actually tied into a bunch of other abilities we saw along the way!Just because you are given a detail doesn't mean you are given the whole story. And especially when that handful of characters acts very different from all the others we have seen?
Okay, the text says they are celestial dragons. But… are they Ancient Celestial Dragons? Are they Fake Celestial Dragons? Do they predate the current crop? Do they actually have the bloodline or just the title?
What makes you say that?
She may not have had any part in Luffy's life, and Dadan is clearly the unofficial adopted mother which is all that counts but... nothing implies that she is dead beyond not being with Dragon at the moment.
SHould we also have assumed that Sanji's father was dead and he had no siblings just because they were never seen until they were? We know Franky's father was a pirate and nothing else, so what does that mean?
There is a TON we just don't actually know.
To this point:
Luffy
-Who is his mother? Is she alive? Where is she?
-Who is his grandmother?
-What made Dragon turn revolutionary?
-Why does Garp hate Celestial Dragons?Zoro
-Is Koshiro from Wano? (Specific mention of sword dojos being shut down by Orochi 20 years ago; Zoro is 21 years old) Is he part of the Revolutionary Army?
-Does he have living parents?
-Is there a connection between Shimotsuki Village and the Shimotsuki clan of Wano?Nami
-What island / country is she from? Nami is the second most prominent character in the series (second most chapter appearances). She even appears on the cover of the first chapter, despite appearing after Zoro in the story. Both Romance Dawn stories, early drafts of One Piece, contain proto-Nami characters. I feel like Oda could have more planned. Maybe Vira? It's a war torn country. Nami read a story about another military coup in Vira as they sailed from Cocoyashi Village to Logue Town. Noland set sail from Vira 400 years ago and it was stated to be a peaceful place.
-What is Nami's family name? Is this information lost or is Nojiko old enough to remember?Usopp
-What is his family name? Would be funny if it's Captain. Captain Usopp has been his real name all this time. Captain Yasopp and Captain UsoppChopper
-Where was the island Hiruluk visited? Is it the location Roger and Whitebeard met for the final time?Robin
-Who was her father? What happened to him? Olvia was said to be 'carrying on her husband's wishes', when she set sail with the research team. This would have been 22 years ago in the story, 2 years after Roger's execution. Maybe there is a Roger Pirates connection?Franky
-Who are his parents? Could they appear in the current story? They abandoned him at the age of 10 (4 years before Roger's execution) and were said to be powerful pirates. Maybe they will be allies of one of the remaining Emperors - Shanks or Blackbeard?Brook
-What is the nation from which he set sail? Brook was said to be captain of the royal guard of 'a certain place' in the West Blue. Could this come up in the final war?
-Is Calico Yorki Alive?Jimbei
-is there a Wano connection? He starts wearing a kimono after Tiger's death.Am I missing anything? Sanji seems to be covered largely during Whole Cake Island, though I imagine the Vinsomke storyline is not yet resolved considering the way things were left as the Straw Hats escaped. Chopper isn't really a mystery, though I threw the question in there about Hiruluk as the Cherry Blossom island could be relevant to Chopper's dream.
I didn't include future Straw Hats Vivi, Carrot, and Smoker on this list =P
I feel like there is potential for all of the Straw Hats to enter the spotlight in a way similar to Sanji during Whole Cake Island in future arcs. In particular, I think Wano is a great opportunity to learn more about Zoro. Elbaf could shed some more light on Usopp. Nami has a real passion for saving defenseless people, particularly children, because of her traumatic childhood. Maybe we'll learn more about where she came from during the Great war. There's the big hanging plot thread about Sharley's prophecy, so opportunity for Jimbei to get the focus again. Brook's home and former position could be relevant in a global war. Germa could come up again in a Vegapunk focused arc given Judge's former position on the research team. Robin will be needed to learn the true history and uncover the deepest mysteries of One Piece. Franky's parents could come up at any point in the New World. Franky also rebuilt himself using Vegapunk's technology and understands better than anyone what happened to Kuma. Franky could be a prominent character in a future Vegapunk story (maybe a 'Vegapunk is really from the future' story…). Carrot's story is related to Zunesha, whose destination is likely significant. Smoker witnessed Roger's execution, but his disdain for the title Pirate signifies some deep rooted past trauma (aka tragic backstory). Pluton is possibly somewhere in Alabasta. Imu wants her light extinguished(?). The Nefertari refused to join the Celestial Dragons in Marijoa. Lots of big story elements are tied to Vivi.
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I still like the theory that the ancestor Celestial Dragons were all pirates.
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Greg do you think that the lurking legend and biggest challenge of Luffy is the return of Rocks in Kaido and Mom teaming up ?
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I still like the theory that the ancestor Celestial Dragons were all pirates.
What is the basis of this theory?
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I still like the theory that the ancestor Celestial Dragons were all pirates.
Space Pirates originally commanded by Captain Ri D Ley.
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Space Pirates originally commanded by Captain Ri D Ley.
Kamui will always be my favorite space pirate, Ridley is a close second though
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Wording was pretty clear of what Oda wanted us to believe,for now.
And there's the problem and why that line of thinking rarely leads to productive predictions.
One Piece: Sabo is dead.
One Piece Data Book: Sabo is dead.By the above logic, we should all have put on blinders and assumed Sabo was dead despite everything about the series at that point suggesting otherwise.
My mantra has been, it's a storyteller's job to be a BS artist. The need to tell a story that surprises you, not one where you expect every beat. The best mangaka are glorious BS artists because they don't even lie to tell their story, in fact they work largely in truth. It's just that those truthes are skillfully presented in very specific ways and from very specific points of view in order to obscure the entire picture. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just relating this out of experience and someone who's worked with the series and whose work is vetted by the editors every other week. 'They're the Highest Authority of the CDs' does not mean, 'They're CDs'. A donkey could be the mayor of a town of humans, but it doesn't make the donkey a human.
Do you understand what I'm trying to express? Sometimes I'm not the best at getting things across but I hope you see what I mean and also that I'm not hardset on them not being CDs. Just open to the idea that they might not actually be them and most importantly, despite the Revos wanting to take down the heirarchy, it doesn't mean they're against them as humans.
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And there's the problem and why that line of thinking rarely leads to productive predictions.
One Piece: Sabo is dead.
One Piece Data Book: Sabo is dead.By the above logic, we should all have put on blinders and assumed Sabo was dead despite everything about the series at that point suggesting otherwise.
My mantra has been, it's a storyteller's job to be a BS artist. The need to tell a story that surprises you, not one where you expect every beat. The best mangaka are glorious BS artists because they don't even lie to tell their story, in fact they work largely in truth. It's just that those truthes are skillfully presented in very specific ways and from very specific points of view in order to obscure the entire picture. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just relating this out of experience and someone who's worked with the series and whose work is vetted by the editors every other week. 'They're the Highest Authority of the CDs' does not mean, 'They're CDs'. A donkey could be the mayor of a town of humans, but it doesn't make the donkey a human.
Do you understand what I'm trying to express? Sometimes I'm not the best at getting things across but I hope you see what I mean and also that I'm not hardset on them not being CDs. Just open to the idea that they might not actually be them and most importantly, despite the Revos wanting to take down the heirarchy, it doesn't mean they're against them as humans.
The highest ranking of Celestial Dragons means they're Celestial Dragons of the highest rank. The Donkey analogy doesn't make sense in this context…
The guy giving the exposition was explaining that even though they have the highest authority in the world being the highest ranking Celestial Dragons, they don't sit on the empty throne. Even if they somehow aren't real CD's, that statement was flat out saying they were...
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The highest ranking of Celestial Dragons means they're Celestial Dragons of the highest rank. The Donkey analogy doesn't make sense in this context…
Exactly.
And the Sabo example doesn't fit either.
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The highest ranking of Celestial Dragons means they're Celestial Dragons of the highest rank. The Donkey analogy doesn't make sense in this context…
The guy giving the exposition was explaining that even though they have the highest authority in the world being the highest ranking Celestial Dragons, they don't sit on the empty throne. Even if they somehow aren't real CD's, that statement was flat out saying they were...
Exactly.
And the Sabo example doesn't fit either.
Donald Trump is the president of the United States.
That does not mean he was actually chosen or popularly elected to that position. or that he earned the right to be there, or that anything he does is actually in the best interest of the United States or that his loyalties aren't actually to Russia. Nor does it make him the most powerful man, the smartest, or the most respected or the best politician. But still he is the president, he has that rank despite not really being presidential by any standard..
The nuances and distinctions matter.
A fact can be 100% true but still be wrong or different. Especially in a story, where its the author's job to decieve and surprise and change what you thought you knew.
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Oda is laughing at you guys rn.
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Absolutely none of you even know what you're arguing about anymore.
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Absolutely none of you even know what you're arguing about anymore.
To not take a lightly stated detail as the entire story as your default position, especially when there's suspicious or unusual things about it.
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What is the basis of this theory?
Well why not?
There was an ancient empire, and then it was overthrown by people. Supposedly kings, but who knows. Would be funny if WG worried about piracy so much partly because their own originators were pirates who managed to take down a big empire.
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Donald Trump is the president of the United States.
That does not mean he was actually chosen or popularly elected to that position. or that he earned the right to be there, or that anything he does is actually in the best interest of the United States or that his loyalties aren't actually to Russia. Nor does it make him the most powerful man, the smartest, or the most respected or the best politician. But still he is the president, he has that rank despite not really being presidential by any standard..
The nuances and distinctions matter.
A fact can be 100% true but still be wrong or different. Especially in a story, where its the author's job to decieve and surprise and change what you thought you knew.
Why do you bring up RL-politics as example, when you could have just written:
"Momo is Kinemon's son, anyone?" (jk)
I do get your Point though. But if we can't take any written line of this manga for granted, then anyone could speculate the Living $hit out of this Story.
And why do I then get a "there is 0 evidence to that", when I bring up the idea of a 3rd tree "of Serpent" (1st being Adam tree and 2nd being Eve tree) which could be the origin of any DF around? -
I want to ask you a question Greg. I re-read the entire series this past summer and noticed that the calendar year in One piece is placed in the 'Age of Kaien'. It's interesting, because calendars in stories often mark year 0 in the current epoch on the calendar based on a world changing event. In our world, for example, the birth of Christ was considered such a monumental event. It's interesting because the calendar year in One Piece is currently 1500 something. Noland sailed in the year 1100 something, which was 400 years before the current story. Joy Boy was said to have made a promise to the Mermaid Princess around the start of the Void Century, 900 years ago. Yet, the message to her was written on the Fishman Island Poneglyph stone. Given what we now know about their origins in Wano, it would seem likely that the apology was placed at the end of the void century. Meaning, the void century occurred between the years 600 - 700 in the Age of Kaien. The World Gov was founded around year 700. Zunesha has been walking for 1000 years, starting around the year 500. What's notable is that, in the world of One Piece, whatever event marks year 0 is considered so important, that even the birth of the World Government, ruled by people who consider themselves literal gods among men, was not significant enough to restart the dating system. They voided out 100 years of history and still didn't start history anew. You would think a missing century would be even easier to hide if the calendar year started with the birth of the Gov. If Zunesha is related in some way to Imu, it would make sense that Imu was alive even further back than the void century. Do you think there is any significance to the 'Age of Kaien' dating system? What could this word 'Kaien' signify? I think the fact that the dating system goes back before the void century and the fact that Zunesha’s origins, likely also a key piece of information, mean that whatever is happening in the One Piece world extends further back in history before the void century, as critical as that period of time is to establishing the current world order. Just wondering if you have any insight.
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That's kinda weird with the calendar tbh. Despite how "divine" and "unfailable" the WG tries to be, they didn't establish their own calendar. Maybe themselves didn't know/couldn't predict how "big" their alliance would become.
They started out as 20 kings (with a secret king/pope/oracle among them, who is totally cool with being kept a secret king/pope/oracle).
North Korea for example did so with an own calendar.Another interesting Thing is:
the WG could accumulate even more countries than the 173 they already have, but the "taxes" are too high for poor countries. -
Well, that's true. They have clearly devised a taxation system which concentrates wealth in the hands of the Celestial Dragons, ensuring the citizens of the world will fight over intentionally limited resources. Which allowed someone like Doflamingo to make himself and his underworld network essential to the maintenance of the established status quo.
Doing a little research, I have found different meanings for the word 'Kaien' - I don't know Japanese though, so I can't say which is correct. One I have found is 'Opening' or 'Start', and another is 'Deep Ocean'
I mean, the fact that the calendar year doesn't start with the birth of the Government is interesting in itself. But perhaps understanding the meaning of the word might offer some insight as to the significance to the One Piece world.
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They sure don't conduct themselves as people who think that they are gods. Whatever they are they are clearly different from the inbred assholes like Charlos. And the battle scars suggest that they have lived outside of the gilded cage
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Why do you bring up RL-politics as example, when you could have just written:
"Momo is Kinemon's son, anyone?" (jk)Because I had already given multiple manga related examples and that was apparently not registering.
I do get your Point though. But if we can't take any written line of this manga for granted, then anyone could speculate the Living $hit out of this Story.
That's not the point. It's not "that line is a lie and you should ignore it." It's "that line tells us something, but is it telling the whole story? What leeway is Oda leaving for there to be more?""
It's about keeping an open mind on what's presented and seeing where that could potentially be expanded. As long as you aren't making up a theory from whole cloth reliant on a thousand different maybes and complete personal opinion that you have to fanfic (see the nakama thread for endless examples) and aren't super married to an idea, its fine to keep an open mind.
Neither me or Greg are saying "woah, those are not actually Celestial Dragons at all, Oda NEVER said that!" We're saying "How much did Oda actually tell us there? IS there room for that to not be exactly what it seems when it comes to these completely mysterious individuals who have been in the story for decades that we know nothing about, who seem completely different from everyone else in that group we have met thus far?"
For example. It's a long standing theory that, "Hey, maybe the D's are from the moon orginally. And then inbred, and the D is actually a half moon." It's a cool idea, it fits with some of the other wordplay Oda has done, and is supported by Enel's cover story. I promote that idea, its cool. Am I married to it? Am I 100% sure that's exactly how it will be and willing to stake my entire reputation on it? Will I be disappointing if thats not what happens? Nope! But its fun to look at some of the seeds Oda has planted, combined with his writing patterns, and try to extrapolate.
And why do I then get a "there is 0 evidence to that", when I bring up the idea of a 3rd tree "of Serpent" (1st being Adam tree and 2nd being Eve tree) which could be the origin of any DF around?
First I've heard of it that I can recall. Seems legit to me. Oda did choose those religious names and use the term devil, and Christianity is a fairly large religion in Japan. Seems reasonable to me, though I don't know if he'd actually go that far to have a modern religion ultimately be the source of evil in his story? (Compared to using things like Poseidon, Pluton and Uranus…) Serpent might be too on the nose, but maybe Lilith?
But yeah, seems like a fair guess and extrapolation to me. If we already know there are two trees with a specific naming system, why not a third?
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Greg do you have any idea how the straw hats can possibly beat Two Yonko crews? I mean one seemed impossible enough, the five elder stars have always been terrified of this happening, and they have the entire Marines and until recently the seven warlords at there helm, how can the Straw hats possibly compete with that? Are they gonna get some sort of ally that will help turn the tables at least a little bit in there favor? All I can think of is the Grand Fleet maybe the remaining White Beard pirates the new power Vega Punk came up with or maybe something else I'm missing entirely
Also this has nothing to do with this arc but do you see Crocodile returning to the series anytime soon, and at what capacity, an enemy an ally? I mean we have to see his gender bending backstory at some point right?
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There is another example of Oda kinda "duped" us:
When we first met Laboon, he had all those scars on his head and Crocus said:"poor whale, tossing his head against the redline, cause he is missing his piwate fwiendz!"
When we saw that school of Laboons after FI, a lot of them had those scars. So either all of them "lost piwate cwew fwiends" OR Crocus misinterpreted Laboons behaviour and that is a common Thing those giant whales do,
which is indicating, that the Redline hasn't Always looked like it does now (being made partially artificial).–- Update From New Post Merge ---
They sure don't conduct themselves as people who think that they are gods. Whatever they are they are clearly different from the inbred assholes like Charlos. And the battle scars suggest that they have lived outside of the gilded cage
But this might indicate that those Five are way older than the likes of Charlos. Old-school-CDs, if you want to. I also have the Impression that Tequila Wolf (as harsh and inhuman as it even now Looks) once was an ambitious Project to connect Islands (like the sea Train does now), so a "well-meant" Project. Of Course they underestimated the size of this Project. But IMHO the initial Intention of Tequila Wolf wasn't a bad one.
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The 5 Elders I think they are Celestial Dragons, but they absolutely do not act like them. But I absolutely cannot see them being some magnanimous individuals. They were basically openingly talking about a "culling" that's mass genocide to me. So their definitely the "Bad" guys, because Luffy our protagonist will always be against something like that.
Making the case their much older then they appear? I think is very likely. But maybe their so old that even though they might have been apart of the force that defeated the Ancient Kingdom, that they don't really consider themselves Celestial Dragons? Because I'm guessing the name Celestial Dragon was something that came after they won.
But it's definitely interesting to think about.
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And there's the problem and why that line of thinking rarely leads to productive predictions.
One Piece: Sabo is dead.
One Piece Data Book: Sabo is dead.By the above logic, we should all have put on blinders and assumed Sabo was dead despite everything about the series at that point suggesting otherwise.
My mantra has been, it's a storyteller's job to be a BS artist. The need to tell a story that surprises you, not one where you expect every beat. The best mangaka are glorious BS artists because they don't even lie to tell their story, in fact they work largely in truth. It's just that those truthes are skillfully presented in very specific ways and from very specific points of view in order to obscure the entire picture. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just relating this out of experience and someone who's worked with the series and whose work is vetted by the editors every other week. 'They're the Highest Authority of the CDs' does not mean, 'They're CDs'. A donkey could be the mayor of a town of humans, but it doesn't make the donkey a human.
Do you understand what I'm trying to express? Sometimes I'm not the best at getting things across but I hope you see what I mean and also that I'm not hardset on them not being CDs. Just open to the idea that they might not actually be them and most importantly, despite the Revos wanting to take down the heirarchy, it doesn't mean they're against them as humans.
No, no don't get me wrong.I am reading OP long enough to understand( to some extent at least) and be prepared for the ambiguities Oda plays with deliberately.There have been quite a few occasions,as discussed by several posters above, which proves that taking any info on face value doesn't pay in the long run any more.What I am talking about is reader's predicament.If I put it in a question answer format, it should be like this:
Q: Who are Gorosei?
A: They run WG and rule over CDs.
Q:How can they sit above/rule over CDs?
A: They are supposedly CD themselves and act as their leaders.So, if I have to answer with known fact, I cant get any further presently.While ambiguity is already been there,choices are limited as of now. It doesn't mean that one can't theorise that they are really something else and what has been presented till now is how 'common' people of 'OP world' generally think.
Considering the secrecy Oda put around them for so long, it is only natural to suspect about their true status.Also the way they dress and behave set them apart from any CD( whether it is gullible like Mjosgard or Homing or scoundrel like Roswald family).While them being pure CD would bring some character and dimesion to these nobles, other solutions will be quite dramatic too.