@S.C.:
I have to disagree, Greg. No one connected to the villain of the arc avenges their own grudge directly (Vivi to Crocodile, Law to Doflamingo, for example), as Luffy does it for them.
Yup.
!
@S.C.:
I have to disagree, Greg. No one connected to the villain of the arc avenges their own grudge directly (Vivi to Crocodile, Law to Doflamingo, for example), as Luffy does it for them.
Yup.
!
@Joy:
Luffy somehow breaking his scales and Momo hurting Kaido feels cheap when the guy is literally the OP version of Thanos. WB goes down to the entire marine organization yet Kaido who wants to destroy the world and cause the biggest war ever falls to freaking Momonosuke ?
Blackbeard would be a closer comparison to Thanos . Kaido hasn't shown a similar methodical mindset to Thanos.
@Joy:
If Momonosuke was in his teen years yes. 8 year old Momo doesn't.
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Why though ? It makes Kaido look really bad in comparison to WB or his peers.
@Joy:
Luffy somehow breaking his scales and Momo hurting Kaido feels cheap when the guy is literally the OP version of Thanos. WB goes down to the entire marine organization yet Kaido who wants to destroy the world and cause the biggest war ever falls to freaking Momonosuke ?
Why would the kid named after Momotarou not give the final blow to the character that represents the Oni?
@All:
Why would the kid named after Momotarou not give the final blow to the character that represents the Oni?
The 'final' blow could just be Momo ordering the execution of Kaido after he's already been defeated.
All I know is we need a payoff for Momo's training. So we'll see what Oda does with that.
Goliath being felled by the laughably weak david.
Yeah sounds pretty fun actually.
I can get behind Momo playing an unexpectedly huge part in this war, but not versus Kaido.
He can still have the moment you all talk about against Orochi, who's build up to be the true demon ogre anyway.
Momonosuke will help Luffy in some way, maybe create clouds with his devil fruit to fight Kaido
I have to disagree, Greg. No one connected to the villain of the arc avenges their own grudge directly (Vivi to Crocodile, Law to Doflamingo, for example), as Luffy does it for them.
And this is why I'm banking on that being the rule Oda breaks here.
While onboard Merry, Luffy smiles and says, "I just gotta send him (Croc) flying!"
This time, Luffy forced someone else to say they'd beat him.
Momo isn't doing that training for nothing and it wouldn't have the same impact if Momo hit him first to be followed up by Luffy simply because it's hard to believe Momo could hit him anywhere meaningful enough to make that kind of a diffence.
I suppose the only location that would make sense is in his eye but otherwise it just makes more sense if Luffy wallops him, gets trounced, and tiny unassuming Momo is able to take advantage of that opening.
I get your point of course and like I even said, past behavior is indicative of future behavior, but I think Oda will break that rule here
The 'final' blow could just be Momo ordering the execution of Kaido after he's already been defeated.
I have a great deal of confidence in my theory. But I concede that it may not turn out that way. This, however, is impossible in One Piece.
In that sense, it would be pretty cool if Kaido just ended up remaining a character nobody, or close to nobody, could ever beat in a one on one fight.
Yesh.
If Luffy defeats Kaido without awakening his devil Fruit, I wonder how insanely powerful he'll be when he does awaken it
and how powerful Black Beard will be when he awakens both his Devil Fruits
also I still think we may get a Will of D transformation similar to a Super Saiyan
And this is why I'm banking on that being the rule Oda breaks here.
While onboard Merry, Luffy smiles and says, "I just gotta send him (Croc) flying!"
This time, Luffy forced someone else to say they'd beat him.
Momo isn't doing that training for nothing and it wouldn't have the same impact if Momo hit him first to be followed up by Luffy simply because it's hard to believe Momo could hit him anywhere meaningful enough to make that kind of a diffence.
I suppose the only location that would make sense is in his eye but otherwise it just makes more sense if Luffy wallops him, gets trounced, and tiny unassuming Momo is able to take advantage of that opening.
I get your point of course and like I even said, past behavior is indicative of future behavior, but I think Oda will break that rule here
I have a great deal of confidence in my theory. But I concede that it may not turn out that way. This, however, is impossible in One Piece.
Yesh.
Say what you will about the momo but I think its clear oda has set a harder power ceiling than toriyama and I doubt we'll ever see a guy like kaido / big mom stick around and get knocked around like blueno when he faced gear 2nd luffy
As people roughly on the same level as Whitebeard and now Shanks / Blackbeard they cant come back and job so easily or its hurts more than just them
also I still think we may get a Will of D transformation similar to a Super Saiyan
Threw up in my mouth a little.
Is it safe to assume (now that we learnt about that flowing haki stuff from Hyogoro) that Zoro knows the Basics of this technique since hs fight with Mr. 1?
He had an obstacle to overcome already back then and Luffy just had to make his Hands wet (against Croc). And with Enel Luffy also was lucky, cause he was rubber.
Also explains why Oda made Zoro an CoA-expert. Zoro just seems that he has learnt CoA "the other way around" (Mihawk told him about "black blades").
The "flying swords slashes" are nothing else than CoA-Punch without touching, don't you think so?
The "flying swords slashes" are nothing else than CoA-Punch without touching, don't you think so?
Don't think so. Would fuck up too many things. Flying slashes are practically a staple in shonen. Oda can't simply retcon all those times we've seen Zoro and other fighters performing air slashes into feats of Armaments Haki force field. CP9 did it with their weapons and body parts and T-Bone did it.
Don't think so. Would fuck up too many things. Flying slashes are practically a staple in shonen. Oda can't simply retcon all those times we've seen Zoro and other fighters performing air slashes into feats of Armaments Haki force field. CP9 did it with their weapons and body parts and T-Bone did it.
Not even if those flyin sword slashes were a weaker form of that flowin haki?
For all we know, Zoro learnt (or "developed") them AFTER his fight with Mr. 1, where he remembered the stuff his sensei told him (which was basically the same Hyogoro was talkin about).
That is why I typed "he learnt CoA the other way around". Maybe he isn't the first to do so. Some might learn that flowin stuff easier and others learn CoA by coating Body parts black easier.
And this is why I'm banking on that being the rule Oda breaks here.
While onboard Merry, Luffy smiles and says, "I just gotta send him (Croc) flying!"
This time, Luffy forced someone else to say they'd beat him.
Momo isn't doing that training for nothing and it wouldn't have the same impact if Momo hit him first to be followed up by Luffy simply because it's hard to believe Momo could hit him anywhere meaningful enough to make that kind of a diffence.
I suppose the only location that would make sense is in his eye but otherwise it just makes more sense if Luffy wallops him, gets trounced, and tiny unassuming Momo is able to take advantage of that opening.
I get your point of course and like I even said, past behavior is indicative of future behavior, but I think Oda will break that rule here
I have a great deal of confidence in my theory. But I concede that it may not turn out that way. This, however, is impossible in One Piece.
Yesh.
how is it "impossible in One Piece"?
It's like having vivi order the execution of the captured baroque works agents by decapitation
After the Will of D, will we get The will of E as a 2nd powerup
The super saiyan insert new higher number concept ruined DBZ.
I mean if it happened at the end of the series, like Raftel or the war after, that really wouldn't be a problem
also I still think we may get a Will of D transformation similar to a Super Saiyan
Why would you curse us with a complete and total lack of imagination that ignores the Will of D concept?
The will of D was the friends we made along the way
It's like having vivi order the execution of the captured baroque works agents by decapitation
there two different situations. And I don't think it's gonna happen. I'm just interested bin knowing why Greg said it's "impossible"
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I mean if it happened at the end of the series, like Raftel or the war after, that really wouldn't be a problem
Idk about transformation. But maybe some special ability they might have.
@wolfwood:
The super saiyan insert new higher number concept ruined DBZ.
That's not what ruined DBZ, nor did it ruin it in the first place. Only flaw is how you had Gotten and kid trunks and how they got it.
@MasterKingJC:
Why would you curse us with a complete and total lack of imagination that ignores the Will of D concept?
Um what about the concept makes a transformation/abilities of will of D seem dum? Will of D people been implied to have special about them that stands out.
I don't agree it might be transformation, but I do think there are special abilities that will be included with Will of D.
Plus OP is a Shonen and has used every Shonen trope/staple or used a distorted version of it so….
Momo getting the final hit on Kaidou doesn't seem so out there to me. I would have never considered it if Greg didn't bring it up but I'd say it's easily possible while keeping everything 100% consistent. Momo will be able to "fly" and wield a sword a little more comfortably within the next in story week so naturally that will allow him some means to maneuver around the battle field. But I don't expect Momo to take over in the fight against Kaidou the way Luffy took over after Law couldn't go on VS Doflamingo.
I see an absolutely outrageous battle with a ton of captains, Zoro, Sanji, and Jimbei joining in for support but ultimately it comes down to Luffy mostly alone. Maybe Luffy manages to subdue Kaidou gum gum ally robot style but it takes Momo flying in with a sword to deal the final blow. Of course this is long after seeing Luffy being the main muscle behind the fight and maybe Kaidou's defenses weaken for Momo to actually make his attack count.
Maybe Luffy awakens and turns Kaidou's scales to rubber. I da'know.
Momo taking out Kaido could be more similar as how Scarletts grave cross took out Diamante.
@Long:
Say what you will about the momo but I think its clear oda has set a harder power ceiling than toriyama and I doubt we'll ever see a guy like kaido / big mom stick around and get knocked around like blueno when he faced gear 2nd luffy
As people roughly on the same level as Whitebeard and now Shanks / Blackbeard they cant come back and job so easily or its hurts more than just them
pretty sure he means, Luffy weakens Kaido to a point that Momo can do damage.
And with the introduction of Rox and Imu. It's hard to say what the power cieling is. BM and Kaido are on the higher end. But the cieling has been raised very likely.
No issue here. Power rising is expected in these series. So this is bound to happen
Idk why people expected them to be the strongest when it's clear given OP is a Shonen this will happen
Who knows, maybe something kooky will happen, and Momo gets those twenty years back. :ninja:
That's not what ruined DBZ, nor did it ruin it in the first place.
It very much did ruin it. The introduction of super saiyan 2 and the subsequent lazy use of new saiyan forms and the sidelining of anyone not a saiyan marked the decline and fall of DBZ
It very much did ruin it. The introduction of super saiyan 2 and the subsequent lazy use of new saiyan forms and the sidelining of anyone not a saiyan marked the decline and fall of DBZ
I may be wrong but that's not what Shiebs is talking about. He's just talking about a simple transformation not a whole linear line of them. Or as big as what Saiyans have. Plus it happening at the end of series. So there won't be a Will of D 2 etc
None of this stuff proves that it ruined DB. Ss2 you can argue was even hinted or bound to happen given talk of ascending beyond SS throughout the Cell arc.
Plus humans/nonAlien beings in DB were sidelined in DB before SS forms so….
pretty sure he means, Luffy weakens Kaido to a point that Momo can do damage.
And with the introduction of Rox and Imu. It's hard to say what the power cieling is. BM and Kaido are on the higher end. But the cieling has been raised very likely.
No issue here. Power rising is expected in these series. So this is bound to happen
Idk why people expected them to be the strongest when it's clear given OP is a Shonen this will happen
There is no power ceiling higher than the strongest creature in the world that can’t die
I said it's impossible because if Momo were to order the execution of his enemy he'd be the same as Orochi.
It very much did ruin it. The introduction of super saiyan 2 and the subsequent lazy use of new saiyan forms and the sidelining of anyone not a saiyan marked the decline and fall of DBZ
The introduction of super saiyan 2 with gohan was the one of the greatest moments in the manga /anime. But yeah anything past that felt repetitive, if they stopped it there it would have been fine though
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I said it's impossible because if Momo were to order the execution of his enemy he'd be the same as Orochi.
What about Momo forgives Kaido but forces him to help rebuild wano as a repentance and then leave
Why would you curse us with a complete and total lack of imagination that ignores the Will of D concept?
I never said that was the only thing about the will of d
obviously they have something to do with the moon people (maybe half moon people DNA, hence the symbol D as in half of the moon) and obviously they were a part of history during the void century, and they must have a bad history with the people who made the world government, and have some sort of morally grey plan that the WG was created in order to stop. Roger and White Beard obviously think someone with the will of D will take on there dream/will of the ancient race after reaching Raftel thus causing a huge war that will include every character we've ever met
there's obviously all that which will be epic, I just happen to think there may be a transformation knowing Oda's love of DBZ, but I can see now this will never be a popular theory
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Idk about transformation. But maybe some special ability they might have.
Um what about the concept makes a transformation/abilities of will of D seem dum? Will of D people been implied to have special about them that stands out.
I don't agree it might be transformation, but I do think there are special abilities that will be included with Will of D.
Plus OP is a Shonen and has used every Shonen trope/staple or used a distorted version of it so....
I'll agree an ability probably makes more sense then a transformation
Thank you for not ripping my idea apart like everyone else
I may be wrong but that's not what Shiebs is talking about. He's just talking about a simple transformation not a whole linear line of them. Or as big as what Saiyans have. Plus it happening at the end of series. So there won't be a Will of D 2 etc
None of this stuff proves that it ruined DB. Ss2 you can argue was even hinted or bound to happen given talk of ascending beyond SS throughout the Cell arc.
Plus humans/nonAlien beings in DB were sidelined in DB before SS forms so….
Exactly thank you!
I said it's impossible because if Momo were to order the execution of his enemy he'd be the same as Orochi.
Personally, I have a feeling this arc won't be the last of Kaido, but what would you do with Orochi after it's all said and done?
I said it's impossible because if Momo were to order the execution of his enemy he'd be the same as Orochi.
Who will be the one to kill Kaido in your eyes?
Black Beard? will he seriously get to kill three Yonko's? (white Beard, Kaido, and Shanks?) or will they set up another big bad?
Goten and Trunks obtaining Super Saiyan is the first problem with it?
Not Gohan going in the Room of Spirit of Time and emerging with it with none of the build up or character development for it?
Ok lol.
I never said that was the only thing about the will of d
obviously they have something to do with the moon people (maybe half moon people DNA, hence the symbol D as in half of the moon) and obviously they were a part of history during the void century, and they must have a bad history with the people who made the world government, and have some sort of morally grey plan that the WG was created in order to stop. Roger and White Beard obviously think someone with the will of D will take on there dream/will of the ancient race after reaching Raftel thus causing a huge war that will include every character we've ever met
there's obviously all that which will be epic, I just happen to think there may be a transformation knowing Oda's love of DBZ, but I can see now this will never be a popular theory
I'll agree an ability probably makes more sense then a transformation
Thank you for not ripping my idea apart like everyone else
Exactly thank you!
really anything can happen in One Please. And a D transformation could happen. I just think it's more powers related like they have a special set of hidden abilities. Or maybe have a secret form of Haki only they can use, etc. Anything can happen.
People who so badly want to tear apart of this are people who did the same with OP having time travel saying that will never happen and well… Look where we at now.
Plus Oda is influenced by DB and other Shonen. And it shows with all the stuff we have in the series so...
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@Joy:
There is no power ceiling higher than the strongest creature in the world that can’t die
we'll see, Luffy is going to clearly get stronger going forward tho after this(Wano). So there is likely gonna be tougher( perhaps Rox, Imu, whoever else Oda got planned) so cieling will very likely get raised
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I said it's impossible because if Momo were to order the execution of his enemy he'd be the same as Orochi.
Ok I see,
@Long:
The introduction of super saiyan 2 with gohan was the one of the greatest moments in the manga /anime. But yeah anything past that felt repetitive, if they stopped it there it would have been fine though
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What about Momo forgives Kaido but forces him to help rebuild wano as a repentance and then leave
exactly SS2 is a classic, plus made sense as imo given all the "ascending" SS talk
Sheb's Will of D transformation/special abilities. Does not sound bad imo it's not like he's proposing them having 4 forms of them or something all doing the same thing
@Long:
The introduction of super saiyan 2 with gohan was the one of the greatest moments in the manga /anime. But yeah anything past that felt repetitive, if they stopped it there it would have been fine though
To me the concept was stupid and lazy from the get-go.
Who will be the one to kill Kaido in your eyes?
Black Beard? will he seriously get to kill three Yonko's? (white Beard, Kaido, and Shanks?) or will they set up another big bad?
Yeah, I totally used to think it would be BB setting him up as the final big bad (from Luffy's perspective) taking the mantle of strongest living thing.
But…. that was all throw in a blender with the arrival of ROX. While I still think BB makes 'sense' there's a lot that Oda can do in order to make BB impressive down the line. Considering suicide is his hobby maybe even he'll succeed and surprise himself but not so sure that's as dramatic as other options for creating a new villain.
"Anything can happen" is a really flimsy basis for any prediction, really. If Oda wants to he can make Enel be Luffy's mother who was turned into a man by Iva and then blown onto a sky island by Dragon's supposed wind powers when he had a climax. But that's shitty writing which Oda is not known for. On top of that, Luffy's Gear 4 is already a major transformation with floating hair, different eye shapes, a different body shape altogether and multiple modes. If anything I think they will be expanded upon rather than introducing another transformation power up solely based on Luffy being a D. In my opinion it would cheapen all the work he has put into developing a fighting style with his Devil Fruit. Being born with Conqueror's haki is already being frowned upon by fans and that's just to eliminate fodder.
And the time travel part probably referred to how the Straw Hat's will never travel back in time and open the whole can of alternate timelines which still holds true.
To me the concept was stupid and lazy from the get-go.
If divorced from the character growth and culmination of gohan into a warrior
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"Anything can happen" is a really flimsy basis for any prediction, really. If Oda wants to he can make Enel be Luffy's mother who was turned into a man by Iva and then blown onto a sky island by Dragon's supposed wind powers when he had a climax. But that's shitty writing which Oda is not known for. On top of that, Luffy's Gear 4 is already a major transformation with floating hair, different eye shapes, a different body shape altogether and multiple modes. If anything I think they will be expanded upon rather than introducing another transformation power up solely based on Luffy being a D. In my opinion it would cheapen all the work he has put into developing a fighting style with his Devil Fruit. Being born with Conqueror's haki is already being frowned upon by fans and that's just to eliminate fodder.
And the time travel part probably referred to how the Straw Hat's will never travel back in time and open the whole can of alternate timelines which still holds true.
Damn we went from crocomom to every villian being his mom lol
I nominate Foxymom
i know it's not going to happen but i really want to see BB kills Im after Wano arc
Being born with Conqueror's haki is already being frowned upon by fans and that's just to eliminate fodder.
So far. Think it's inevitable that Conqueror Haki has more to show, just like the other 2 kinds.
So far. Think it's inevitable that Conqueror Haki has more to show, just like the other 2 kinds.
It's gotta be the lightning/shockwaves, right? Usually we only see it when two conqueror haki sources clash, but perhaps a proficient user could produce that kind of effect all on their own and use it offensively. Slim odds it would actually be given away in a place like that, but Shanks' lightning driven Pirate Warriors 3 moveset got me thinking about this.
Hard to say what else it could be without worsening the "fodder eliminator" complaints.
Hey Greg, long time listener first time caller. Jabra posted something in the spoiler thread for the last chapter, and I'd been thinking about it myself and wanted to get your take on it. A lot of people here have noted that Wano's pacing feels off from how Oda normally does it, but Oda's been playing around with his story telling recently (stuff like Whole Cake having musical numbers, Wano's defined act structure mirroring that of kabuki) and I was curious if the tone and pacing of the arc is a characteristic of kabuki theater that's gotten lost in translation.
Here's Jabra's post from the spoiler thread btw.
@Jabra:
During the early days of Wano some people noted that the paneling and pacing mirrors a Kabuki-play, maybe that's why it feels so off? I don't know anything about that kind of theatre, but it might explain why everything is so abrupt and clunky?
It wouldn't make the reading experience any more enjoyable, but at least it would make me go from Jackie Chan-face…. to this: :ermm:.
Well, I don't know much about Kabuki, but I feel that the whole prison sub-plot is dragging ass, pacing-wise.
Sadly I'm not 'Mr. Kabuki' so I can't say that for certain. I mean, some of the framing is REEEEEEALLY obvious to point of breaking the 4th wall, but besides those panels/scenes which we can all tell, I don't know much about any subtle aspects he might be trying to include.
Although it's not kabuki, he's DEFINITELY pulling every trope out of the box when it comes to samurai films. Zoro is basically just throwing rocks at a box of samurai movie DVDs.
As for how it's playing out, yes, it's definitely skipping about in a form that feels a bit more episodic than it does normally (which it is by nature) but that again lends it to feeling more like a jidaigeki tv drama than it does a kabuki which are loooooooooooong drawn out scenes.