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    Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

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    • Kdom
      Kdom @Robby
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      @Robby:

      Two different audiences looking for two different things. If you're looking for adventure and comedy and worldbuilding and character moments, W7 isn't the place. If you're just looking for badass action sequences, then… Enies Lobby and the War, and apparently Sabaody, are for you.

      That point again ! The same kind of person who cries blasphemy when you say One Piece is a battle manga.
      If you only like the adventure part of One Piece, that is your problem and I'm perfectly fine with it. But please stop dividing the world into 2 minorities of readers. The great majority of us like both the adventure AND the action

      And that is why Water 7/Enies Lobby is liked a lot. It is also part of the golden age when every crew member had its place in the story which has completely disappeared since the time skip. If there was a point to cripe, this one is the real one. Let's hope Wano will change that a bit but I'm not to optimistic

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      • desa
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        I like everything about Water Seven up until we jump to the other side of the bridge. Then I like Merry's funeral. As a whole I think it is fine but I really hate the tower of justice part because a lot of it are just battle for the sake of it with never seen before power ups and that's where Sanji talk his whole I'll never kick a woman. ANd I don't like how the Usopp conflict was resolved.

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        • Cavendish
          Cavendish @Robby
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          @Robby:

          Two different audiences looking for two different things. If you're looking for adventure and comedy and worldbuilding and character moments, W7 isn't the place. If you're just looking for badass action sequences, then… Enies Lobby and the War, and apparently Sabaody, are for you.

          I strongly disagree. I like Water 7 for lots of reasons and it is not “for the fights” considering I don’t care for the marineford “war” much at all. Water 7 gave us loads of world building it set up Luffy’s big conflict with the WG, it introduced Akainu/Sakazuki and his form of ‘justice’, the ancient weapons, Garp showing up and giving us the hype about the Four Emperors.

          In addition to introducing us to the majority of the late story powers it also gave us loads of characters I found extremely enjoyable: Franky Family, Dock Workers, Iceberg, Garp, Franky as a crewmate, Saul etc. Also the arc brought Coby back to interact with Luffy which was nice.

          In the story department the arc gave us: some of my favourite flashbacks, the antics of Sogeking, the awesome “I want to live” seen, the burning of the flag/declaration of war, the Going Merry's death, everything about Franky’s story and it is the last point up until even the present that I felt the whole crew got a good amount of a focus and everyone truly got their moment to shine. It was before the story got too saturated with so many characters that lots of the Straw Hats end up fading into the background.

          Also Spandam was an excellent villain so even if Lucci was boring it is not like he was the only antagonist, just a roadblock.

          Not to mention (as other people have already said) many people think the art quality during Water 7 was their favourite style Oda has produced.

          All of this far outways any amount of "dragging" the fights had on the story IMO and on re-reads I find it no issue at all since I'm not waiting for the next chapter of the story to come out.

          There is also a lot more "small" scenes that I enjoyed (such as Zoro's refusing to let Usopp back on the crew) that I don't have time to think about without making a post far too long.

          Water 7 is definitely not my “all time favourite” arc (Arlong Park is) but it is easily in the top 5 favourites. Meanwhile Marineford is in the bottom 4.

          Spoiler:

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          • Robby
            Robby @Cavendish
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            @Kdom:

            That point again ! The same kind of person who cries blasphemy when you say One Piece is a battle manga.
            If you only like the adventure part of One Piece, that is your problem and I'm perfectly fine with it. But please stop dividing the world into 2 minorities of readers. The great majority of us like both the adventure AND the action

            I like action just fine. But at Enies Lobby it grinds to a complete halt. For like five solid volumes. Longer if you count the train.

            It was a LOT of fighting in one spot and it drags the arc as a whole down. Like I said, everything around it was good, but that huge slowdown slog in the middle kills it.

            the best choreographed fight in the manga, franky's entertaining as hell fight, chopper being an actual badass, nami's best fight, sanji motivating usopp and kicking jyabura's ass to redeem himself, zoro vs kaku, you're fired, usopp's best moment in the series, robin is saved, gear 3

            Chopper's berserker form was a super cool moment but almost got people killed and he had to be taken out by Franky. Sanji willing to let Robin and the rest of the crew die because he can't fight a woman not even in a knock around the scenery and just get the key from her fashion, Usopp getting shortchanged constantly and failing to do anything? That sniping moment was cool but it was not his best moment in the series. Nami in a lets get naked T and A bathhouse fight that was a bad showing for her and Kalifa both. Climax powerups all out of nowhere with zero foreshadowing especially from Zoro and Sanji. Playing musical chairs with all the opponents just making it all take longer. and Luffy/Lucchi as cool as it was with the gears and all just went on for ages… not helped by the fact that Lucchi has zero personality, ambition, or stake in any of it. He just wants to kill because. Spandam was perfectly hateable but he was such a PoS with nothing to back it up that there's nothing entertaining or interesting there.

            Arlong Park and Alabasta were also able to give everyone lengthy battles without absolutely wrecking the pace and some of the characters in the process. Yes, there were a few less members then, but Alabasta had almost as many fighters without the drag. Fishmen Island went the opposite direction and had the crew completely decimate their opponents in a group one on one in like, three chapters... and that was too far in the other direction, that was TOO fast.

            @Cavendish:

            **I strongly disagree.

            Did you read my entire post? I said all the stuff in Water 7 is good and even pointed out a lot of those things already. It's the Enies Lobby portion that drags it all down and weakens the arc as a whole.**

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            • Cavendish
              Cavendish @Robby
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              @Robby:

              Did you read my entire post? I said all the stuff in Water 7 is good and even pointed out a lot of those things already. It's the Enies Lobby portion that drags it all down and weakens the arc as a whole.

              Of course I did. I can ask you the same question. I clearly said @Cavendish:

              All of this far outways any amount of "dragging" the fights had on the story IMO and on re-reads I find it no issue at all since I'm not waiting for the next chapter of the story to come out.

              You are entitled to your own opinion that you think the fighting drags the story down too much however, that is just your opinion, and I’m allowed to disagree. I don’t take issue with your opinion not matching mine. What I have an issue with is you stating that anyone who loves the arc in spite of any pacing issues in EL isn’t into the manga for the comedy, adventure, world building and character moments.

              TLDR: I love Water 7. I don't love Marineford. Don't pigeon-hole us.

              Spoiler:

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              • Captain M
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                I'll also jump on the Water Seven Saga defense (sea) train, not that it needs my help. The darker tone and internal conflicts for the crew were out of line with everything that came before that point, but the contrast is a big part of what made it work for me. I wouldn't want every arc to be like it, but the series is exponentially stronger for it having happened. By the time all the fighting started at Enies Lobby I was invested enough to rush through it in a single sitting (it helps that lots of action makes for less dialogue and faster reading), but I can imagine how hard it must have been reading it over the course of a year. God it's like night and day reading everything since I caught up weekly and in full. People complain that the Cipher Pol lacked personality or that their uniform black suits made them samey, but I remember more of their names and quirks than I do, say, Enel's priests or Hody's pirates. It wasn't perfect (Sanji's bits particularly are where I started to lose faith in him as a character), or even the best One Piece storyline, but it hit a enough of my personal buttons to be a personal favourite.

                But to each their own, this is a series with a ton of variety and something for everyone. The way you can get so many different responses for the best and worst bits from a relatively small number of people is evidence of its strength.

                Vivre Card Archive One Piece in One Piece Covers Compilation

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                • Robby
                  Robby @Cavendish
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                  @Cavendish:

                  What I have an issue with is you stating that anyone who loves the arc in spite of any pacing issues in EL isn’t into the manga for the comedy, adventure, world building and character moments.

                  I am sorry.

                  The sheer amount of time I've been on this forum often leads to me cutting to the end result of old discussions that were held at length and debated for months with lots of people and with a lot more nuance, so I sometimes come across as a bit dismissive or blunt or leaving things out or that I've come to certain conclusions based on nothing, and I need to be better about that. Having had this discussion with dozens of people before and talking about the strengths and weaknesses at length,for years in some cases, and Enies Lobby in particular as it was happening, we came to a general overall conclusion on the minutia a decade ago and its very easy for me to miss the fact that everyone else on the forum doesn't have that same experience and can have a very different take, especially if they came to the series after the arc was done.

                  I wasn't trying to broad brush anyone in particular or insult anyone. I apologize if I came across as doing so.

                  The question asked that started this was if there was an eastern/western split, and yes, there is. Americans go in stronger for the action stuff, the Japanese go in stronger for the crazy stuff.

                  There's a reason OP is the biggest thing ever there, while in the states it keeps failing to make any major foothold compared to its "darker, cooler" cousins Naruto and Bleach. The Water 7 arc had badguy assassins dressed all in black, and a super lengthy extrended battle sequence, that hews closer to the strengths of those two series, and what American audiences like more in general. It was the arc most capable of pulling in a typical american audience. It's why Dragonball got cancelled after 13 episodes but Dragonball Z was huge.

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                  • Cavendish
                    Cavendish @Robby
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                    @Robby:

                    I am sorry.

                    The sheer amount of time I've been on this forum often leads to me cutting to the end result of old discussions that were held at length and debated for months with lots of people and with a lot more nuance, so I sometimes come across as a bit dismissive or blunt or leaving things out or that I've come to certain conclusions based on nothing, and I need to be better about that. Having had this discussion with dozens of people before and talking about the strengths and weaknesses at length,for years in some cases, and Enies Lobby in particular as it was happening, we came to a general overall conclusion on the minutia a decade ago and its very easy for me to miss the fact that everyone else on the forum doesn't have that same experience and can have a very different take, especially if they came to the series after the arc was done.

                    I wasn't trying to broad brush anyone in particular or insult anyone. I apologize if I came across as doing so.

                    At the risk of being further off topic I would like to say that I really appreciate you taking the time/effort to respond to me in such a nice way. Thank you.😄

                    On a more related topic as to the arcs and stuff: Years ago, I encountered more than one person who thought the Foxy/Davy Back arc was literally a filler arc added to the anime and were surprised when I told them it is in the actual manga volumes.

                    Spoiler:

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                    • Robby
                      Robby @Cavendish
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                      @Cavendish:

                      On a more related topic as to the arcs and stuff: Years ago, I encountered more than one person who thought the Foxy/Davy Back arc was literally a filler arc added to the anime and were surprised when I told them it is in the actual manga volumes.

                      To be fair, the anime version of it basically was. They padded the hell out of that thing, putting in an entire second set of fights, and then they had Foxy return again not too long afterward in two different filler arcs.. AND they removed the Aokiji element so the Tonjit element is rendered complete filler as well. It's easy to see why anyone would think Foxy was a filler character.

                      Especially since the anime completely nailed the G8 arc just prior, which is probably the best filler arc its ever done and is one filler that doesn't feel like one.

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                      • Kdom
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                        I don't really understand the criticism of the fact that the story was halted because of a few battles.
                        Technically a fight stops the plot and if the author wants to make it a bit flashy and interesting it has to last more than a few pages.
                        Otherwise we have the mess that is the Marineford arc with the action cut every page and the constant skip.
                        Maybe at that time One Piece was not 100 volumes long and every arc didn't last 2 years so it felt long but having reread it recently it didn't bother me.
                        Compare to dressrosa which took 2 years and where the fight scenes are clearly forgetable, I think Enies Lobby is more rewarding for the readers

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                        • Robby
                          Robby @Kdom
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                          @Kdom:

                          I don't really understand the criticism of the fact that the story was halted because of a few battles.

                          There's slowing down for fights, which shonen manga are all about. Heck, its why tournaments happen so often in so many series.

                          And then there's coming to a dead stop for a solid 50 chapter year to do nothing but fight in one location.

                          There's a reason Oda hasn't given every member in the crew solo extended fights in any arc since, and keeps dividing the teams up. It's death to the pacing. He can do that again for the final arc of the series, because it's the finale. But until then? He settles on two or three of them getting a fight, plus Luffy, while everyone else gets support roles or much shorter skirmishes earlier in the arc.

                          Not counting the fishman island battles because those were all super short one sided "lets show off the timeskip powers" fights and combined were all done in just a couple chapters..

                          Technically a fight stops the plot and if the author wants to make it a bit flashy and interesting it has to last more than a few pages.
                          Otherwise we have the mess that is the Marineford arc with the action cut every page and the constant skip.

                          Marineford wasn't about showing definitive fights to the finish. It was about getting to Ace… and hyping up and showing what the strongest in the world guys could do, and just how far Luffy had to go. It was a tease. "Look what Mihawk can do, Zoro is going to fight at that level later!" "Look what Doflamingo can do, he's dealing with Crocodile like he's nothing!" "Look at how easily Jinbe takes out the boss of the previous arc!" "Look at how scary all the admirals are!" "Look what an old sick Whitebeard can do, imagine him in his prime, and what BB will do with that power!"

                          Its was the midpoint, not the climax. Had Oda showed ever single fight there from start to finish, we'd have been there for like six years, like the final arc in Bleach. We're probably going to see a lot of those big players doing their all out to the finish thing at the end of the series.

                          Maybe at that time One Piece was not 100 volumes long and every arc didn't last 2 years so it felt long but having reread it recently it didn't bother me.

                          Nah, that's why Skypeia felt long and out of place at the time. It was a two year arc during years 5 and 6 of the series, that had no apparent connection to anything, so it was a little awkward and easy to see why people were annoyed then, and now in the context of 20 years and counting its nothing.

                          Water 7 as a whole, the length was fine. Everything in the city and after was interesting and moved at a good clip. ANd then…. they got to EL.

                          If Oda had skipped some of the musical chairs in matchups, or so many of the fights didn't end with new powers made up out of nowhere, or made some of the fights even a few pages shorter, or introduced one less CP9 member so that Franky didn't need to get in three different fights (plus Chopper) he could have trimmed 10 chapters off and it would have flowed better maybe. Similar issues come up a lot, like when the crew is running from a death cloud for half a year, or with the Big Mom chasing the crew on the water which went for months and was really repetitive.

                          Oda goes where his creativity guides him and some times that leads to some bits going longer than they maybe should have.

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                          • andre
                            andre @Robby
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                            @Robby:

                            Similar issues come up a lot, like when the crew is running from a death cloud for half a year, or with the Big Mom chasing the crew on the water which went for months and was really repetitive.

                            If it took too long it's only because of the weekly nature of Jump and the breaks Oda takes, because I don't think there was much repetitive about the chase at all. We have 5 distinct segments of it and exciting things happened through them all, until the very end, when the major focus went to Luffy's fight with Katakuri instead.
                            1. Pedro's Sacrifice
                            2. The giant wave and Jinbe's badassery in the Green Room
                            3. Carrot's Sulong form.
                            4. Straw Hats legitimately stall and wound Big Mom.
                            5. Giant Prometheus mom.

                            I'd say only that fifth part ever felt repetitive at all. The rest was all great stuff and with a read through, it was paced really well.

                            Check out my podcast for conversations about Greatness in anime, sports, music, and whatever else we can think of.

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                            • Johnny B. Decent
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                              Personally, I'm still waiting for an explanation about Ashura.

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                              • andre
                                andre @Johnny B. Decent
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                                @S.C.:

                                Personally, I'm still waiting for an explanation about Ashura.

                                This would be the perfect arc for it. I wonder if Oda is cognizant that so many people are interested in the how of Ashura. Does anyone know if this is a common fan question in Japan? If it hasn't been dealt with in SBS then I expect it to come up again.

                                Check out my podcast for conversations about Greatness in anime, sports, music, and whatever else we can think of.

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                                • Count Mario
                                  Count Mario @Johnny B. Decent
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                                  I agree with a mix of Robby and Cavendish's points, but I do want to talk about this point in particular:

                                  @Captain:

                                  People complain that the Cipher Pol lacked personality or that their uniform black suits made them samey, but I remember more of their names and quirks than I do, say, Enel's priests or Hody's pirates.

                                  To be fair, those are very bottom of the barrel (and I would throw Arlong's crewmates outside of Hachi in there too).

                                  The uniform black suits are fine. I definitely would not like that for every antagonist group and I usually don't care for when that is how main casts are designed in a series (think live-action X-Men) unless everybody wears and decorates those same-y clothes in different quirky idiosyncratic ways. But it works for Cipher Pol. 9 because it takes them specifically stand out and it effectively represented how they are rigid unified representatives of the government than your average pirate crews. And each member has drastically different anatomy from one another.

                                  But when my main problem with CP9 can be summed up in how there is a clear divide in how they were introduced and characterized. The Water 7 undercover brigade (barring Kaku) is boring as all hell. Lucci's only interesting trait was having a ventriloquist pidgin which went to the wayside (although I understand how that was meant to capitalize the impact of the betrayal in how much Galley-La never truly knew him), Kalifa says the same dumb sexist joke over and over again that wasn't funny the first time, and there's a reason why Blueno is only remembered for having a silly Devil Fruit power and being an exercise routine for Gear Second Luffy.

                                  But then comes the Enies Lobby crew. Spandam is Mecha Frieza combined with Heath Ledger's Joker trying to rise up the ranks up the ranks and sadistically takes his frustrations out on a bound prisoner who can't fight back (then there's that glorious elephant sword), Kumadori is a living kabuki theater of a man with hair powers and a seppuku obsession, Fukuro is Tweedle Dee with a zipper mouth that can't keep secrets and has some sort of weird power level intuition, and Jabra looks like an Asian film kung fu master superstitious about Devil Fruits and fools people with fake tragic flashbacks as a literal big bad wolf.

                                  One group is clearly more fun than the other. Putting them together only makes the boring members look even more boring. If Lucci's group was more fun, if the latter group was the one at Water 7 to form our initial impression of CP9, or if the Enies Lobby faction were the only CP9 members in general and the Straw Hats got teamup fights against them, CP9 would have a much more favorable reputation in the fanbase outside of their fights. And you can't tell me that the Enies Lobby faction would have easily looked suspicious considering how weird Galley-La already is and Oda going as far as making them fake their corpses before their reveal.

                                  @Robby:

                                  Marineford wasn't about showing definitive fights to the finish. It was about getting to Ace… and hyping up and showing what the strongest in the world guys could do, and just how far Luffy had to go. It was a tease. "Look what Mihawk can do, Zoro is going to fight at that level later!" "Look what Doflamingo can do, he's dealing with Crocodile like he's nothing!" "Look at how easily Jinbe takes out the boss of the previous arc!" "Look at how scary all the admirals are!" "Look what an old sick Whitebeard can do, imagine him in his prime, and what BB will do with that power!"

                                  That's my biggest problem with Marineford. I DEFINITELY do not want an arc only filled with full fights, but basing most of an arc in brief fight encounters as teases for post-timeskip power scaling has no appeal for me. It lacks any meaningful choreographical, entertainment, or emotional depth besides "LOOK AT HOW STRONG THESE GUYS ARE". The arc still has plenty of big emotional moments and huge worldbuilding twists too, but the fight teases are still way too huge focus to put aside and even a bunch of the emotional beats/twists feel too last minute (Ace being Roger's son does nothing for me) or too asspull-y for me to care (I don't care about Blackbeard stealing Whitebeard's Devil Fruit as a twist in itself since it got zero clever buildup so much as me already loving Blackbeard and being excited for how it changes him as a threat).

                                  @S.C.:

                                  Personally, I'm still waiting for an explanation about Ashura.

                                  It will never happen. Oda has made it more than clear that he simply likes basing Zoro's moves off of cool looking motifs without any consistent in-world explanation.

                                  Spoiler:

                                  "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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                                  • M
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                                    Personally, my main issue with CP9 was that they never felt important enough to justify being the arc villains of a roughly 100 chapter storyline (and yes I consider Water 7 and Ennies Lobby as a single arc, one that's even longer than Dressrosa). I get that they were supposed to represent the World Government as a whole, but they just felt like some strange side-branch compared to the high ranking Marines.

                                    Originally Posted by MrBits

                                    Place your bets. Is [AlphaMale/AlphaBro, an obvious ban evader] going to get banned again today, tomorrow, or in a week?

                                    Originally Posted by AlphaBro

                                    okay let's bet . Would love to see your losing face next week !

                                    An actual bet and conversation on the Chapter 905 thread, literally an hour before he got banned again.

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                                    • K. Kira XXIII
                                      K. Kira XXIII @MrBits
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                                      @MrBits:

                                      Personally, my main issue with CP9 was that they never felt important enough to justify being the arc villains of a roughly 100 chapter storyline (and yes I consider Water 7 and Ennies Lobby as a single arc, one that's even longer than Dressrosa). I get that they were supposed to represent the World Government as a whole, but they just felt like some strange side-branch compared to the high ranking Marines.

                                      CP9 is absolutely just a side-branch compared to the High Ranking Marinea.

                                      They performed assassinations in Paradise. They were what Arlong was to East Blue.

                                      I never considered them a representation of the World Goverment as a whole, could you elaborate on that?

                                      Hidden:

                                      Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                      Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

                                      Hidden:

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                                      • Johnny B. Decent
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                                        Generally, most governments have a intelligence agency and armed forces. CP9 was the former and the Marines the latter.

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                                          MrBits @K. Kira XXIII
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                                          @K.:

                                          CP9 is absolutely just a side-branch compared to the High Ranking Marinea.

                                          They performed assassinations in Paradise. They were what Arlong was to East Blue.

                                          I never considered them a representation of the World Goverment as a whole, could you elaborate on that?

                                          Well, maybe not the World Government "as a whole," but they were still the agents of the WG that the strawhats were made to fight. And compared to the consistently relevant and quickly introduced Marines, and the "Ultimate Evil" of the Celestial Dragons, Cipher Pol just isn't that important.

                                          I'm not really sure how to articulate why this bothers me, but try to imagine that we spent 70+ chapters in Impel Down with just the Jailers as villains and that should give you an idea.

                                          Originally Posted by MrBits

                                          Place your bets. Is [AlphaMale/AlphaBro, an obvious ban evader] going to get banned again today, tomorrow, or in a week?

                                          Originally Posted by AlphaBro

                                          okay let's bet . Would love to see your losing face next week !

                                          An actual bet and conversation on the Chapter 905 thread, literally an hour before he got banned again.

                                          K. Kira XXIII 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • K. Kira XXIII
                                            K. Kira XXIII @MrBits
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                                            @MrBits:

                                            Well, maybe not the World Government "as a whole," but they were still the agents of the WG that the strawhats were made to fight. And compared to the consistently relevant and quickly introduced Marines, and the "Ultimate Evil" of the Celestial Dragons, Cipher Pol just isn't that important.

                                            I'm not really sure how to articulate why this bothers me, but try to imagine that we spent 70+ chapters in Impel Down with just the Jailers as villains and that should give you an idea.

                                            Are you saying that both suffer of the same problem?

                                            Hidden:

                                            Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                            Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

                                            Hidden:

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                                              MrBits @K. Kira XXIII
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                                              @K.:

                                              Are you saying that both suffer of the same problem?

                                              Not at all because the Impel Down Jailers were only around for about 25 chapters.

                                              Originally Posted by MrBits

                                              Place your bets. Is [AlphaMale/AlphaBro, an obvious ban evader] going to get banned again today, tomorrow, or in a week?

                                              Originally Posted by AlphaBro

                                              okay let's bet . Would love to see your losing face next week !

                                              An actual bet and conversation on the Chapter 905 thread, literally an hour before he got banned again.

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                                                1000sunny
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                                                I'm going to venture a guess that the major difference between the people who loved W7 and the people who didn't is when they started reading/watching week to week. I think when folks flipped over from binging the series to following it weekly is a huge factor in which arcs they favor the most, especially with something as long and up and down as W7.

                                                Personally, I didn't catch up till the beginning of Marineford and I have fond memories of W7, despite its slow moments. Nothing feels too slow when you're consuming everything in bulk. But on re-reads, I can see where the story drags and where the villains feel kind of hollow. But I forgive most of it because I still remember the way it made me feel the first time around.

                                                Anyway, that's my two cents.

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                                                • Logia
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                                                  Regarding story arcs, I like how the wikia and maybe others have arcs combined into sagas. So that arcs are still split while being in a bigger part of the story.

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                                                  • Robby
                                                    Robby @1000sunny
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                                                    @1000sunny:

                                                    I'm going to venture a guess that the major difference between the people who loved W7 and the people who didn't is when they started reading/watching week to week. I think when folks flipped over from binging the series to following it weekly is a huge factor in which arcs they favor the most, especially with something as long and up and down as W7.

                                                    Personally, I didn't catch up till the beginning of Marineford and I have fond memories of W7, despite its slow moments. Nothing feels too slow when you're consuming everything in bulk. But on re-reads, I can see where the story drags and where the villains feel kind of hollow. But I forgive most of it because I still remember the way it made me feel the first time around.

                                                    Anyway, that's my two cents.

                                                    It's certainly a factor. But I was caught up with the anime pretty early on through bootlegs, I saw Alabasta and Skypeia in real time over months and years, and those paced fine to me… though Skypeia is when the anime started slowing down its pacing and it felt it. I discovered manga scanlations about halfway through the anime's run of Skypeia and binged the end of skypeia through the start of Water 7. Its been so long I'm no longer sure exactly when I caught up to the manga... but I know it was probably around the sea train, because I encouraged one of my friends to catch up right at chapter 400 right after Robin's flashback.

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                                                    • Chrior
                                                      Chrior @1000sunny
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                                                      @1000sunny:

                                                      I'm going to venture a guess that the major difference between the people who loved W7 and the people who didn't is when they started reading/watching week to week. I think when folks flipped over from binging the series to following it weekly is a huge factor in which arcs they favor the most, especially with something as long and up and down as W7.

                                                      Personally, I didn't catch up till the beginning of Marineford and I have fond memories of W7, despite its slow moments. Nothing feels too slow when you're consuming everything in bulk. But on re-reads, I can see where the story drags and where the villains feel kind of hollow. But I forgive most of it because I still remember the way it made me feel the first time around.

                                                      Anyway, that's my two cents.

                                                      Yeah, I think that's a big factor. Because on my first read, I absolutely loved Alabasta and Water 7 and hated Thriller Bark from the bottom of my soul. Curiously enough, Thriller Bark was just beginning when I caught up to the series. And the anime's pace had also become absolutely atrocious by then.

                                                      But I have also changed as a reader/fan in general. I pretty much also hated Skypiea when I first watched it, but then as I read the series in manga format and then reread it later, it grew on my A LOT. As did TB (not as much). So I think both the transition from bulk reading/binge watching to weekly schedule and the change in ourselves as we grow and age alongside the series have a lot to do with people's perception of different arcs.

                                                      That said, Enies Lobby suffers from the same problem a lot of arcs suffer in OP, in my point of view. Skypiea, Enies Lobby, Thriller Bark, Punk Hazard, Dressrosa, Totto Land. Enies Lobby and Dressorsa being by far the worst offenders, but all these arcs, at least for me, have ridiculously long action sequences that devote entire chapters in sequence to random fighting against different mooks, skirmishes against some villains, switching up the fighting pairs, etc. The whole last third of these arcs is one long, drawn out, and, at times, boring as hell sequence of endless fighting and often running away from some huge disaster (Enel's giant thunder cloud, Buster Call, the dawn, the gas cloud, the bird cage, Big Mom herself). I think this is when most people complain about an arc's quality and pace, and it's when Oda is at his weakest in terms of both storytelling, pacing, and panelling.

                                                      And, to be fair, Oda's arc structure doesn't change that much, with some welcome exceptions. So when one spends a decade or two reading this series and a new arc starts and develops in a rather predictable and similar fashion as so many before… it's natural that some people start getting tired of it. Especially when Oda starts recycling stuff like "Sanji is a pervert with heart eyes", "Zoro is a muscle mass idiot with no sense of humour or direction", "women don't like robots but men get shiny eyes when seeing them", etc. I can understand some people's fatigue with this type of stuff. For me, Totto Land was a VERY welcome change of pace in this series. Things had gotten a bit stale for too long since the timeskip and until Zou. And both Zou and Totto Land just came in with different story structures, goals, final outcomes, which really shook up the usual OP routine. Combined with how fun Wano's been so far and how epic I expect it to get, I am hopeful for the rest of the series, more so than I have been for a few years.

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                                                      • theackwardstation
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                                                        It's nice to see some criticism towards W7/EL instead of the usual nostalgia, but it was mindblowing to me when I read someone pidgeonholing this saga as "badass action sequences" (as if it was devoid of "adventure" and "comedy" and "worldbuilding"… or anything else).

                                                        A much more sensible approach to understanding why this saga is so appealing to a large audience is acknowledging that it's got a wide range of qualities that appeal to different tastes and, IMO, tick every box of what you can expect from One Piece.

                                                        The idea that W7/EL doesn't offer adventure is false to me. It may not be the typical Indiana Jones style of adventure, but there is a lot of exploration of the settings that makes you feel like you're discovering a new place and meeting new people. Actually, Water 7 is one of my favorite places in all of One Piece, and not only because its architecture looks so beautiful, but also because Oda created a tangible culture and economy around its historical assets, natural resources (the water) and natural phenomena (Acqua Laguna), or even around details like the way people are not scared of pirates since the local shipwrights are strong. Water 7 is also rich in history as we learn that the Tom Workers saved it from poverty with the invention of the sea train, or also random stuff like discovering that part of the island is already forever submerged and that Iceburg want to make it float. Even Enies Lobby is a very interesting place (much more than Marineford as a comparison) as every inch of that setting have symbolic meaning. Gorgeous stuff.

                                                        The worldbuilding in the saga is huge for obvious reasons, from the smaller to the bigger stuff, so I don't even think I need to elaborate any further. I say the same in regards to comedy, as the saga is filled with breather moments, gag characters, gag fights and lots of gags (well, it's One Piece, folks)… not to mention the prelude arc named Davy Back Fight.

                                                        So yes, adventure, comedy and wordbuilding!!

                                                        I just wanted to make this point, because this is not the time or place for me to post an analysis of the saga, but it should be mentioned that there is a lot more to it beyond what I said and badass action sequences. The storytelling is filled with suspense and mystery. There is drama at every corner with the events happening around Robin, Usopp, Franky and Iceburg… and I'd argue that W7/EL shows one of the best depictions of the Strawhats as they deal with the crew's struggles. This is the saga with two great flashbacks. This is the saga where we get a brand new nakama and where two old nakama finally let go of their worries. This is the saga where we lose the Going Merry and where get the Thousand Sunny.

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                                                          I watched water 7 on the anime first (I switched to the manga at the beginning of Thriller Bark) and to this day it is still my favorite arc, despite the Enies Lobby fights.
                                                          All the story and the heavy emotions on that arc are One Piece at it's best.

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                                                          • Long John Silvers Rayleigh
                                                            Long John Silvers Rayleigh @theackwardstation
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                                                            @theackwardstation:

                                                            It's nice to see some criticism towards W7/EL instead of the usual nostalgia, but it was mindblowing to me when I read someone pidgeonholing this saga as "badass action sequences" (as if it was devoid of "adventure" and "comedy" and "worldbuilding"… or anything else).

                                                            A much more sensible approach to understanding why this saga is so appealing to a large audience is acknowledging that it's got a wide range of qualities that appeal to different tastes and, IMO, tick every box of what you can expect from One Piece.

                                                            The idea that W7/EL doesn't offer adventure is false to me. It may not be the typical Indiana Jones style of adventure, but there is a lot of exploration of the settings that makes you feel like you're discovering a new place and meeting new people. Actually, Water 7 is one of my favorite places in all of One Piece, and not only because its architecture looks so beautiful, but also because Oda created a tangible culture and economy around its historical assets, natural resources (the water) and natural phenomena (Acqua Laguna), or even around details like the way people are not scared of pirates since the local shipwrights are strong. Water 7 is also rich in history as we learn that the Tom Workers saved it from poverty with the invention of the sea train, or also random stuff like discovering that part of the island is already forever submerged and that Iceburg want to make it float. Even Enies Lobby is a very interesting place (much more than Marineford as a comparison) as every inch of that setting have symbolic meaning. Gorgeous stuff.

                                                            The worldbuilding in the saga is huge for obvious reasons, from the smaller to the bigger stuff, so I don't even think I need to elaborate any further. I say the same in regards to comedy, as the saga is filled with breather moments, gag characters, gag fights and lots of gags (well, it's One Piece, folks)… not to mention the prelude arc named Davy Back Fight.

                                                            So yes, adventure, comedy and wordbuilding!!

                                                            I just wanted to make this point, because this is not the time or place for me to post an analysis of the saga, but it should be mentioned that there is a lot more to it beyond what I said and badass action sequences. The storytelling is filled with suspense and mystery. There is drama at every corner with the events happening around Robin, Usopp, Franky and Iceburg… and I'd argue that W7/EL shows one of the best depictions of the Strawhats as they deal with the crew's struggles. This is the saga with two great flashbacks. This is the saga where we get a brand new nakama and where two old nakama finally let go of their worries. This is the saga where we lose the Going Merry and where get the Thousand Sunny.

                                                            Yeah, not to mention arcs where the strawhats are fighting for one of their owntend to hit harder emotionally then we need to save dressrosa or fishman island, or these giant kids / keimi. This was the strawhats getting messed with and fighting with all their resolve to get back their "nakama". It feels a lot more personnel IMO so all the fights carry a greater weight and the payoff feels so much greater.

                                                            @Greg:

                                                            _

                                                            I would like it if Greg chimes in though, since that was originally why I posted it here lol

                                                            On the topic of enies lobby being rated as the consensus best arc among western fans compared to the japanese fans' tastes. Is Enies Lobby more middle of the pack by comparison?

                                                            –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                            Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:

                                                            So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?

                                                            H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler

                                                            Spoiler:

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                                                            • Daz
                                                              Daz
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                                                              Enies Lobby had plenty of good stuff. The siege itself is good fun, and showcases the secondary cast well. Blueno and Lucchi are bores, but the fights with them are pretty well done. With the exception of Nami vs Kalifa and the Ashura finisher, I think all the fights are in fact pretty dang good, with Franky vs Fukoro being the standout. Robins flashback is good, chapter 398 is a top tier chapter, and her desperate struggle against Spandam on the bridge makes Usopps sniping moment all the sweeter. Spandam overall is a great heel, and picks up the slack of his more boring enforcers. Merrys return is sweet, and theres tonnes of good little character moments throughout.

                                                              Its major failings is the underwhelming opponents, and the sheer length of it all. The CP9 arc is still the longest in OP history, and really should have been trimmed down a fair bit, with the rotating matchups against CP9 beng a particularly obvious example. At 55 chapters Enies Lobby alone is longer than many entire complete arcs, including Thriller Bark, Fishman Island, and Punk Hazard.

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                                                              • Greg
                                                                Greg
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                                                                Totally am going to chime in. It's just a good question and I want to devote some serious time to it. Plus I've simply genuinely enjoyed following your discussion!

                                                                Robby can attest to this but there's been a lot going on for me right now (both scary and good) and it's a little tough for me to settle down and focus up but I totally will address this.

                                                                No matter where you go, there you are.

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                                                                • Razh
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                                                                  The whole train sequence is one of my favorite parts of OP in general.

                                                                  Oh Sanji, how far we've come from then…

                                                                  Originally Posted by Outerspec

                                                                  Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                                                                  It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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                                                                  • Daz
                                                                    Daz
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                                                                    The Sea Train chase is almost completely superfluous. The idea of CP9 needing to be escorted by people like Jerry and Nero is laughable. And I love it.

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                                                                    • maxterdexter
                                                                      maxterdexter
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                                                                      Do you expect for them to make their own coffe?

                                                                      3DS FC: 0516-7666-3837

                                                                      SW-4128-8032-0729

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                                                                      • Razh
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                                                                        They were probably there also to add weight to train, so it sticks to the tracks. :ninja:

                                                                        Originally Posted by Outerspec

                                                                        Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                                                                        It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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                                                                          Chams
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                                                                          I think we tend to confuse bad enemy plans with good enemy plans that were thwarted by the protagonists.
                                                                          In my personal opinion, much of what Big Mom's crew did during Whole Cake arc was pretty good tactics and plans (with a few exceptions, like Opera not revealing that Luffy escaped or the guy that slept on Sanji's bed). Their arrengements for the battles at sea were particularly good: they cornered the Strawhats again and again, giving time for the big ship to arrive and always trying new tactics to corner them.

                                                                          Regarding the sea train thing: calling other CP agencies to escort the prisioners was a good tactic. Without knowing there could be stowaways they already stacked the train with agents. The CP9 are strong enough on their own, but they are not immune to other sneaky tactics. That's why they had, for instance, Nero going on top of the train to avoid sneaking past the CP9 to reach Robin.
                                                                          CP9 was doing well, they were just outsmarted and defeated by the Mugiwaras

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                                                                            Blissed @Chams
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                                                                            @Chams:

                                                                            with a few exceptions, like Opera not revealing that Luffy escaped

                                                                            I was fine with that particular convenience, since Big Mom was established as someone her family fears enough that they don't want to risk pissing her off, to the point they're willing to lie. As shown with Smoothie, Perospero, etc.

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                                                                            • Roronoa Zacho
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                                                                              I guess shonen in General tends to built fight Scenarios like in a Video game. The sea Train Scenario isn't that much different. The further the SHs got, the stronger the foes became.
                                                                              Sometimes we even have LEVELS in OP like in ID or DR. Just saying. Wanze was the Chef though.

                                                                              Discussing nostalgic W7/EL during Wano?

                                                                              There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

                                                                              But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

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                                                                              • Md-Martin
                                                                                Md-Martin @Chams
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                                                                                @Chams:

                                                                                In my personal opinion, much of what Big Mom's crew did during Whole Cake arc was pretty good tactics and plans (with a few exceptions, like Opera not revealing that Luffy escaped

                                                                                I actually really liked this.

                                                                                Something Oda has continuously shown is the contrast of the Strawhats to other crews. This is the first real in depth look at one of the 4 Emperor's crew. We saw bits of Whitebeard's in the war, but that was largely overshadowed by the overall conflict. We saw a lot more from Big Mom's crew and their inner structure.

                                                                                As opposed to Luffy's crew, which trusts each other and always comes together, one of the greatest pirate crews in the world, which is an ACTUAL family(as compared to the Strawhats "family by choice" theme) is full of fear, distrust, and dysfunction. There are clear factions, favoritism, and all sorts of pulling on different directions with different people in the crew. You have someone like Opera, who lied to cover his ass because he knows what Linlin can do. You have someone like Preline who jumps ship to another crew completely and outright betrays her entire family to support her new husband. Similarly, you have Chiffon who chose her new family over her mother and siblings. Yet, we see this illustrated in very easy to sympathize way with her taking her mother's abuse. We see these siblings all over the place, with some of the ones outright on mother's side completely, while others seem to just be trying to save Totto land and contain her havoc.

                                                                                While parts of their crew were shown to be VERY tactical, the ultimate downfall of their crew wasn't Luffy beating up the crew's second strongest, or Sanji's cake, or Bege's scheme. It was their family's dysfunction in dealing with obstacles they would have normally dealt with had it been other crews. But of course, this family that "stands together" yet are constantly at odds fell apart when one Crew charged in to rescue his "family".

                                                                                Originally Posted by Monkey King

                                                                                A magical strange Twilight Zone episode where no other education is offered, and the only option is Bill Nye the Science Guy videos

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                                                                                • Roronoa Zacho
                                                                                  Roronoa Zacho @Md-Martin
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                                                                                  @Md-Martin:

                                                                                  I actually really liked this.

                                                                                  Something Oda has continuously shown is the contrast of the Strawhats to other crews. This is the first real in depth look at one of the 4 Emperor's crew. We saw bits of Whitebeard's in the war, but that was largely overshadowed by the overall conflict. We saw a lot more from Big Mom's crew and their inner structure.

                                                                                  As opposed to Luffy's crew, which trusts each other and always comes together, one of the greatest pirate crews in the world, which is an ACTUAL family(as compared to the Strawhats "family by choice" theme) is full of fear, distrust, and dysfunction. There are clear factions, favoritism, and all sorts of pulling on different directions with different people in the crew. You have someone like Opera, who lied to cover his ass because he knows what Linlin can do. You have someone like Preline who jumps ship to another crew completely and outright betrays her entire family to support her new husband. Similarly, you have Chiffon who chose her new family over her mother and siblings. Yet, we see this illustrated in very easy to sympathize way with her taking her mother's abuse. We see these siblings all over the place, with some of the ones outright on mother's side completely, while others seem to just be trying to save Totto land and contain her havoc.

                                                                                  While parts of their crew were shown to be VERY tactical, the ultimate downfall of their crew wasn't Luffy beating up the crew's second strongest, or Sanji's cake, or Bege's scheme. It was their family's dysfunction in dealing with obstacles they would have normally dealt with had it been other crews. But of course, this family that "stands together" yet are constantly at odds fell apart when one Crew charged in to rescue his "family".

                                                                                  And though you're right with the in-depth look in BM's Crew, we have hardly seen Snack (or what Smoothie is actually capable of). We also just hardly saw the decuplets' DF-power (has to be some Kind of Docking DF), so I really wonder how things will wrap up at Elbaf or wherever BM's 2nd round will be. What was really disappointing was the fact, that BM didn't faint longer from Sanji's cake. After she ate the cake she didn't have a bigger purpose in the arc, so that is why i really dislike Oda's decision to throw her in again. Sanji's "redemption"-Moment could have been bigger, if he made a woman faint from a cake who has eaten every delicious sweet in the world. I expected sth like Usoppe sniping Spandam tbh.

                                                                                  There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

                                                                                  But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

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                                                                                  • Robby
                                                                                    Robby @Roronoa Zacho
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                                                                                    @Roronoa:

                                                                                    What was really disappointing was the fact, that BM didn't faint longer from Sanji's cake.

                                                                                    Eh, story's not done. Big Mom thinks Pudding made that amazing cake for instance, and still needs to learn the actual truth about her past. And we need to see how the dozens and dozens of "dead" characters survived.

                                                                                    Arc is over, plotline isn't. There may still be further ramifications from the cake. Like, what if BM no longer gets any cravings? Or the opposite and she NEEDS to have Sanji cooking now and nothing else will do? Etc. Especially in regards to Pudding.

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                                                                                      RigaCrypto @Robby
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                                                                                      @Robby:

                                                                                      Eh, story's not done. Big Mom thinks Pudding made that amazing cake for instance, and still needs to learn the actual truth about her past. And we need to see how the dozens and dozens of "dead" characters survived.

                                                                                      Arc is over, plotline isn't. There may still be further ramifications from the cake. Like, what if BM no longer gets any cravings? Or the opposite and she NEEDS to have Sanji cooking now and nothing else will do? Etc. Especially in regards to Pudding.

                                                                                      Totally agree. I bet Oda thought all of it head to tail. BM's expression after eating the cake was great to watch but in BM's crew i think it was something extraordinary. She will crave for more of the same next time we meet her … or maybe on her way to Wano she will start craving again the one Wedding Cake, Pudding will say that only with Sanjis help she could make one more and then the BM crew will swallow their pride and ask the Strawhats for help. That is a scenario i would like to see.

                                                                                      Luffy vs Katakuri Full fight: https://www.docdroid.net/qrFOY9p/luffyxkata.pdf

                                                                                      Luffy vs Cracker Full fight : https://www.docdroid.net/Pk06JZL/luffy-vs-cracker.pdf

                                                                                      Luffy vs Doflamingo Full fight : https://www.docdroid.net/VDl3Ctf/luffyxdoffy.pdf

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                                                                                        Blissed @RigaCrypto
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                                                                                        @RigaCrypto:

                                                                                        Totally agree. I bet Oda thought all of it head to tail. BM's expression after eating the cake was great to watch but in BM's crew i think it was something extraordinary. She will crave for more of the same next time we meet her … or maybe on her way to Wano she will start craving again the one Wedding Cake, Pudding will say that only with Sanjis help she could make one more and then the BM crew will swallow their pride and ask the Strawhats for help. That is a scenario i would like to see.

                                                                                        Lol, people theorized the same thing in WCI, that they'd have to work together to make the cake for BM. If it didn't happen there, where the entire country was on the line, I don't see it happening now. The stakes would be much lower, it'd be repetitive, and the BM Pirates are more pissed off at them than ever before.

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                                                                                        • Roronoa Zacho
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                                                                                          What I mean is, that BM could have fainted til the SHs got away, would have been a bigger Moment for Sanji.
                                                                                          But we saw her still chasing the SHs and threaten SH-allies from what we know each of them will come out of this alive.
                                                                                          When she was riding that candy-frog-prince (?) I really was like "WTH?"

                                                                                          Of course her plotline isn't completed yet, but for the time being she could have been unconcious until the News about Luffy's new bounty have spread IMHO.

                                                                                          There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

                                                                                          But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

                                                                                          Shiebs 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                                          • Shiebs
                                                                                            Shiebs @Roronoa Zacho
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                                                                                            What other fruits do you guys think will get taken???

                                                                                            I doubt it will just be the clear clear fruit

                                                                                            I could def see the Diamond Diamond fruit, and the Phoenix Phoenix fruit getting taken….. but what else???

                                                                                            maybe the Boom Boom fruit from mr. 5? what do you guys think?

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                                                                                            • imperioonepiece
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                                                                                              That's an interesting discussion for me, Shiebs.

                                                                                              We don't know how many fruits Blackbeard is hoping to get, if they are only for the 10 or 11 commanders, or for more subordinates.

                                                                                              I did not expect the clear clear fruit to be taken by Shiryuu, not at all. But I'm expecting some logias, or powerful Zoans, like mythological Zoans, such as Nine-tailed fox.

                                                                                              I would say they might get the Diamonds fruit or Magellan's fruit, perhaps some of Kaidou's subordinates' fruits. Or Shanks'. There are many possibilities.

                                                                                              Oh, btw, I think he has already gotten the Snow Snow fruit, if it is true that Aokiji became an allie.

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                                                                                              • Kaworu
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                                                                                                I'm also interested in just how powerful Blackbeard's abilities are going to get. We've seen that, even more-so recently, Oda's making absolutely sure he represents the power of Devil Fruits to the fullest extent. Two particular examples I can think of are Doffy's and Law's. Devil Fruits fleshed out to the absolute limit, maybe even too much. But this only has good implications for Blackbeard's fruits, because it means we've seen nothing of the Darkness fruit. I have a feeling Oda is going to go very large scale with Blackbeard's destruction later on. He'll maybe nearly destroy the world, who knows. But I have every feeling he's going to destroy or uncover some important plot element related to Raftel with his darkness/quake/??? fruits.

                                                                                                Croc or Enel would never.

                                                                                                Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.

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                                                                                                • C
                                                                                                  Chams
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                                                                                                  How about Sanji's adversary (whoever that might be in Blackbeard's crew) gaining the diamond fruit? It's as hard to kick steel as to cut it. That would flip Zoro's fans' mimds2s

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                                                                                                  • Shiebs
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                                                                                                    @Chams:

                                                                                                    How about Sanji's adversary (whoever that might be in Blackbeard's crew) gaining the diamond fruit? It's as hard to kick steel as to cut it. That would flip Zoro's fans' mimds2s

                                                                                                    Or maybe Oda throws us all for a loop, and switches up the formula by having Sanji fight Shiryu and Zoro fighting Jesus Burgess with the diamond fruit

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                                                                                                    • Robby
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                                                                                                      @Chams:

                                                                                                      How about Sanji's adversary (whoever that might be in Blackbeard's crew) gaining the diamond fruit? It's as hard to kick steel as to cut it. That would flip Zoro's fans' mimds2s

                                                                                                      Shiryu is the established swordsman, so it's generally been assumed he'll be Zoro's opponent. And he just got the invisibility fruit.

                                                                                                      @Shiebs:

                                                                                                      Or maybe Oda throws us all for a loop, and switches up the formula by having Sanji fight Shiryu and Zoro fighting Jesus Burgess with the diamond fruit

                                                                                                      Sanji has already fought invisibilty fruit. It'd be really dull for him to get that again.

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                                                                                                      • Coookie
                                                                                                        Coookie @Chams
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                                                                                                        @Chams:

                                                                                                        How about Sanji's adversary (whoever that might be in Blackbeard's crew) gaining the diamond fruit? It's as hard to kick steel as to cut it. That would flip Zoro's fans' mimds2s

                                                                                                        Diamonds are pretty brittle so I don't see how it would make the match-up more exciting

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