Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

[FolhaS]

@Greg:

Hard no.

Also, for official sources etc. I believe I'll self-censor to use 'Rox' but I feel fairly strongly Oda wanted it to be 'Rocks'. I don't say this because I know about the character or have a confirmation on the character but because I know Oda's preferences when it comes to Japanese kana that he thinks sound cool/appropriate for shonen manga. Rocks gets that across. Rox is fine though! No qualms about it whatsoever!

Iirc, Japan tends to associate Rock with rock'n'roll and not the minerals. Hence Megaman's original name being Rockman.
Do you think that's what Oda is going for with this name, that we'll see something akin to Keith Richards in Pirates of the Caribbean?

On a personal note, I addhere to the Rox spellling because it makes reading somewhat easier since rocks is also a common noun.
The first time I read the chapter the name was translated as Locks and I first thought it was Hina's nickname, because of her powers, since she was with whom Lacroix was talking to.

[Robby]

Rocks works in japanese as a cool name. In English it's a little bit rougher. If it were introduced in a different way where we very clearly saw the character that might fly, but the way it is, is it a person or a group or a place or what is unclear… and Rox helps clear that up.The right call.

Author's intent should take precedence 99.9% of the time, but when the author doesn't speak fluent English sometimes the translation needs to go against that and do what works better for the local audience.... even if the author actually wrote it in English at some point.

See also Shiryu vs. Shilliew. (Tho I'm sure if we'd gotten it spelled in English immediately we would have stuck with the weird ass spelling.) Or any time where a name is a weird pun like Kuma/Bear. Like maybe juuuust maybe in that one particular instance it should have been translated as Bear, (since so many jokes are made about him being a bear and that's completely lost in English) but it's also a proper name and he was introduced long before those jokes started cropping up. That's a weird super rare outlier though, I'd never suggest Nami be translated as "Wave".

[WizardofRadical]

Wild prediction time.

I've been wondering why Shanks is so respected within the WG. Last chapter we even see him stroll in and have a conversation with the five elders. I don't believe he was born with these ties but has somehow earned them. Some have been saying it's bcs he's a yonko, but I have a hard time believing BM or Kaidou could do the same as him.

We know Shanks and Mihawk have some sort of relationship, which has been set up for a long time, and we know Mihawk is a shichibukai even though he seems like the type to not listen or take orders from anyone and he's powerfull enough to do just that. So why is he a shichibukai?

My prediction is that mihawk has some connection to the WG, more precisely Im, and that somehow Shanks helped mihawk get out, and knows his story and the secrets behind Im or the WG, but has elected to not share these secrets with the world. That is why he commands so much respect from the WG and marines. If we assume that mihawk has relations with Im then he's difficult to deal with for the WG, so I'm guessing they let him be as long as he took a seat as shichibukai, to not cut ties completely or something like that. So he's still part of the WG, but it's the freest part of it. He probably doesn't condone what the WG/Im are doing, and that's why he wanted to leave.

Thoughts?

[cubo]

@Greg:

I've long been of the opinion that the Elder Stars are actually pretty upstanding fellows….who hate themselves and what they must do every single day.

I'd be surprised if they weren't adventurers who got caught up in the history of the world and in order to protect people from a nefarious force/their own history, do what they must.

They're afraid of what might happen if someone tries to 'break the wheel' because they know the futility of it.

That's where Luffy comes in because he'll subvert even their expectations.

NOT an easy job for Oda to write, but that's what we trust him to do.

In a way, similar to Thanos of the last Avengers movie: wanting to "keep balance", and therefore annihilate part of the population, but not with joy or anger - something like that?
It becomes an interesting (and somewhat) classical twist - of opposition of not good vs bad, rather different visions of seeing/considering what is (the greater) good.

Greg, do you think that at Elbaf Big Mom will recover her memory and become non-hostile to Luffy as an indirect consequence?

[Count Mario]

@Long:

Imagine the end of the luffy - blackbeard final fight ending in a tender hug and everyone being moved to stop fighting, sakazuki and akainu shake hands, charloss apologizes for his behavior and doflamingo starts using his strings to help donate clothes to less fortunate kids. :ninja:

This better be how Luffy vs. Blackbeard ends:

!

Also, I didn't know Sakazuki and Akainu were two separate people. My reading comprehension must be losing its touch.

Im's existence, especially with that empty throne only being introduced and having its significance immediately subverted in one freaking chapters, worries me a little because my gut keeps seeing him as some megalomaniacal tyrant like Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars who is manipulating everything for the sake of selfish corruption, which would ruin pragmatic and morally convoluted the World Government/Marines have been portrayed thus far in the series with differing ideologies and try to present themselves as fair equals despite clear race/class biased.

However, that is only me projecting onto that silhouette without knowing how it will play out. It could go in a much more interesting and consistent direction based on the talk about balance, how the Gorosei already put up with the Celestial Dragons more than they would prefer to for some reason, the Gorosei never enjoying their cruel decisions, and how much we don't know about the Void Century. I will have to reserve judgment and see where Oda goes with this.

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

@Count:

This better be how Luffy vs. Blackbeard ends:

!

Also, I didn't know Sakazuki and Akainu were two separate people. My reading comprehension must be losing its touch.

I meant sabo and akainu but yeah it was too funny to change

[FelRes]

I got a nice mental image of Sakazuki looking in the mirror in self reflection. His reflection is an angry Akainu. He comes to peace with who he is. Brulee is just hanging out on the side.

[Wintermute]

I miss Brulee. If Big Mom is the Flying Dutchman, Brulee would be Spongebob (that episode was hilarious).

[Robby]

I'd be a lot more worried about the introduction of Im if this were 10 years down the line post raftel and in the final arc of the series, as a last minute addition Oda threw in just to provide someone to punch, the way Naruto handled it.

But setting it up this far in advance, and with the ties to everything else we know about, it should be fine. Its not a last minute deus ex machina, its final puzzle pieces appearing before the story starts locking into place.

[maxterdexter]

The annoying part of IM is that while there was no evidence of her until now, (except her being the National Treasure, and Doffy's orders to kill Moriah, that could have been, or even are, anything else) depends on completelly missreading the character of Blackbeard or the scene where Akainu and the elders are figthing over Doffy's plan.

[herpdat]

@maxterdexter:

The annoying part of IM is that while there was no evidence of her until now, (except her being the National Treasure, and Doffy's orders to kill Moriah, that could have been, or even are, anything else) depends on completelly missreading the character of Blackbeard or the scene where Akainu and the elders are figthing over Doffy's plan.

How, though? The conversation between Sakazuki and the Elders hints directly at the existence of someone like Imu. Sakazuki says, quoting the official translation, "So you're telling me that the whole mistaken mess about Doflamingo leaving the Warlords was on orders from even higher than you all?" Imu's existence is clearly a huge secret, so Sakazuki at the time can only interpret this information as meaning that the Elders are weak leaders, since they allow CP0 and the Celestial Dragons to act independently.

I don't know what you mean by misreading Blackbeard, though. What does his characterization have to do with Imu's existence?

[FolhaS]

@Count:

This better be how Luffy vs. Blackbeard ends:

!

Also, I didn't know Sakazuki and Akainu were two separate people. My reading comprehension must be losing its touch.

Im's existence, especially with that empty throne only being introduced and having its significance immediately subverted in one freaking chapters, worries me a little because my gut keeps seeing him as some megalomaniacal tyrant like Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars who is manipulating everything for the sake of selfish corruption, which would ruin pragmatic and morally convoluted the World Government/Marines have been portrayed thus far in the series with differing ideologies and try to present themselves as fair equals despite clear race/class biased.

However, that is only me projecting onto that silhouette without knowing how it will play out. It could go in a much more interesting and consistent direction based on the talk about balance, how the Gorosei already put up with the Celestial Dragons more than they would prefer to for some reason, the Gorosei never enjoying their cruel decisions, and how much we don't know about the Void Century. I will have to reserve judgment and see where Oda goes with this.

I think he handled the throne stuff right. It's a clear hypocrisy from the start.
He even had Stelly state he wanted to sit alone on that throne the first time we see the place. The throne was always meant to have someone sit there, the "we can live together in harmony" was just a lie they tell lesser people. The same way the World Gvt claims to be a very good and friendly organization but we've seen how they prioritize those who sit higher (royalty and celestial dragons) above the common folk. It's a matryoshka of tyrants.

Since we had 1 week of real time betwen chapters and we analyse the shit out of them it may feel a bit a like a switcharoo or something, but if read back to back the chapters hold up, imo. Speacially counting the one before those so that we see Im, then the throne, then both of them. It's well built.

[Artur]

@maxterdexter:

The annoying part of IM is that while there was no evidence of her until now, (except her being the National Treasure, and Doffy's orders to kill Moriah, that could have been, or even are, anything else) depends on completelly missreading the character of Blackbeard or the scene where Akainu and the elders are figthing over Doffy's plan.

@herpdat:

How, though? The conversation between Sakazuki and the Elders hints directly at the existence of someone like Imu. Sakazuki says, quoting the official translation, "So you're telling me that the whole mistaken mess about Doflamingo leaving the Warlords was on orders from even higher than you all?" Imu's existence is clearly a huge secret, so Sakazuki at the time can only interpret this information as meaning that the Elders are weak leaders, since they allow CP0 and the Celestial Dragons to act independently.

I don't know what you mean by misreading Blackbeard, though. What does his characterization have to do with Imu's existence?

Would like to add to that with the scene in chapter 581 where Doflamingo tries to assassinate Moriah, he claims that there is someone "Much higher up" that gave him the orders to do so. We later find out that it was CP0 who gave Doflamingo such orders, so it could very well have been Im. This might be a stretch, but I do think Oda might have already had such a concept in mind back then, ever since I first saw that scene years ago I've always been of the idea that there had to be someone high up that we just didn't know about, it's nice to finally see that was the case.

And as herpdat mentioned, in chapter 793 Sakazuki does hint at the existence of someone above the Gorosei. It's interesting that in both cases both Im and Doflamingo are involved. Not saying Doflamingo necessarily knew him personally, but he might at least know of his existence, same with the National Treasure.

[Count Mario]

@FolhaS:

I think he handled the throne stuff right. It's a clear hypocrisy from the start.
He even had Stelly state he wanted to sit alone on that throne the first time we see the place. The throne was always meant to have someone sit there, the "we can live together in harmony" was just a lie they tell lesser people. The same way the World Gvt claims to be a very good and friendly organization but we've seen how they prioritize those who sit higher (royalty and celestial dragons) above the common folk. It's a matryoshka of tyrants.

Since we had 1 week of real time betwen chapters and we analyse the shit out of them it may feel a bit a like a switcharoo or something, but if read back to back the chapters hold up, imo. Speacially counting the one before those so that we see Im, then the throne, then both of them. It's well built.

It's not that I think someone sitting on tge chair is inconsistent. It was obviously going to happen, and this is the perfect timing to reveal a character like Im. And the World Government are obviously hypocrites with how they treat the Celestial Dragons, Fishmen, Ohara, Law's island, and the slaves. My issue is that execution-wise, the Empty Throne sitting happens so soon that it doesn't have much of an impact on me. It looks less like an epic twist and more like Oda couldn't come up with a cool way to introduce this character until the very last minute by cobbling up a simple metaphor. "Nobody here is the king. BUT WAIT, OH NO, THERE REALLY IS A KING." And on top of that, a completely new character who we only saw a silhouette of one or two chapters ago sits on it, which also doesn't really impress me beyond generic hype. AND the idea of the Gorosei having a secret boss that at least occasionally gives them commands does not sit completely well with me since I liked how conflicted and pragmatic the Gorosei always are while trying to at least look like a balanced government with both good and bad people than a cliche oppressive empire with one evil mastermind pulling the strings.

But like I said before, those negative thoughts I have are only thoughts I can't help projecting from seeing secret evil mastermind reveals in series like Star Wars and Naruto. One Piece can go in a different and more interesting direction given how much we don't know about the Void Century and Im apparently giving orders for "balance" than straight up tyranny. So I will give Oda a chance, and this isn't too much different from how the Gorosei let the Celestial Dragons do as they please because of Void Century lineage. Im only triggers me and other fellows a bit because a secret overlord, even if it does align with how the World Government has operated, still sounds like a next level of overt "muhuhahahaha, I'm so evil" cliche on paper. Emphasis on the "on paper" part, Im can still work well depending on Oda's direction.

[FolhaS]

That's the thing, I don't think this was meant to be that big of a twist/shocking reveal per se, I think Oda is slowly but surely building up the arc.
This wasn't meant to be a "Bruce Willis was dead all along" moment. This is the beggining of the arc not the end.

It feels like since the reverie has been planned, in so way or another, for so many years, and since it won't/can't be that long because the Strawhats are out of the picture, Oda had all the stuff he wanted to introduce here all written up and that helps to keep a constant pace. No matter how scandalous these chapters felt the final couple of chapters in this arc will have even bigger and more shocking reveals.
I agree that so far Im is just generic hype, because we basically only know that he exists, but I'm expecting (hoping) he'll be slightly more developed by then end of the arc. Kinda like when we met Blackbeard, he was just someone who had a decent conversation with Luffy and seemed kinda interesting but then his name/epithet is revealed a couple of chapters later and he really becomes interesting.

Regarding his Emperor situation, I get the feeling that he cares only for a couple of aspects, like the info on the void century is kept secret and that he keeps ruling and the celestian dragons can keep doing mostly what they want, then he lets the gorosei work out the kinks. For example, now they will (try to) kill someone for the good of the world/balance [my money's on Vivi, btw] and he's going to simply drop that name to the gorosei and they have to figure out the best way to do it and to ensure the result they want to achive with it comes to fruition.

[Artur]

@Count:

It's not that I think someone sitting on tge chair is inconsistent. It was obviously going to happen, and this is the perfect timing to reveal a character like Im. And the World Government are obviously hypocrites with how they treat the Celestial Dragons, Fishmen, Ohara, Law's island, and the slaves. My issue is that execution-wise, the Empty Throne sitting happens so soon that it doesn't have much of an impact on me. It looks less like an epic twist and more like Oda couldn't come up with a cool way to introduce this character until the very last minute by cobbling up a simple metaphor. "Nobody here is the king. BUT WAIT, OH NO, THERE REALLY IS A KING." And on top of that, a completely new character who we only saw a silhouette of one or two chapters ago sits on it, which also doesn't really impress me beyond generic hype. AND the idea of the Gorosei having a secret boss that at least occasionally gives them commands does not sit completely well with me since I liked how conflicted and pragmatic the Gorosei always are while trying to at least look like a balanced government with both good and bad people than a cliche oppressive empire with one evil mastermind pulling the strings.

But like I said before, those negative thoughts I have are only thoughts I can't help projecting from seeing secret evil mastermind reveals in series like Star Wars and Naruto. One Piece can go in a different and more interesting direction given how much we don't know about the Void Century and Im apparently giving orders for "balance" than straight up tyranny. So I will give Oda a chance, and this isn't too much different from how the Gorosei let the Celestial Dragons do as they please because of Void Century lineage. Im only triggers me and other fellows a bit because a secret overlord, even if it does align with how the World Government has operated, still sounds like a next level of overt "muhuhahahaha, I'm so evil" cliche on paper. Emphasis on the "on paper" part, Im can still work well depending on Oda's direction.

I agree on that for the most part. I feel that the introduction of Im and the throne, while still done well, were way too recent for this reveal to have any major impact. If at least Oda had more directly teased Im's existence or how the throne works (maybe somewhere around the end of Dressrosa or before), this would have felt much more impactful. It is impactful in the sense that we've known the Gorosei for a long time and their lack of power is a surprise, but even the details around them have been scarce, so it doesn't even feel that big of a surprise in that sense.

I do also hope there is more depth to Im than what we've seen, even if he's made to be completely evil, do it with a purpose and with depth to it. And I do highly hope that he doesn't become the final villain, especially given how recent his introduction was, despite some minor teases implying his existence in past chapters.

[Greg]

We later find out that it was CP0 who gave Doflamingo such orders

Not confirmed. Still speculation so probably best to avoid stating it as fact.

I'm in agreement regarding the almost uncanny resemblance, but even so stating unconfirmed ideas as facts can be problematic down the line.

A little 'probably' goes a long way.

AND the idea of the Gorosei having a secret boss that at least occasionally gives them commands does not sit completely well with me since I liked how conflicted and pragmatic the Gorosei always are while trying to at least look like a balanced government with both good and bad people than a cliche oppressive empire with one evil mastermind pulling the strings.

I have to disagree. I don't think this changes that about them at all.

In fact it only solidifies in my mind the concept that they are essentially the WG versions of Garp in that they want to be as close to a position of power (as realistically possible for them) to be able to assist or potentially influence it in their own way.

[Nilitch]

btw, had you theorized that there was one illuminati ruling over the world ?

[Shergal]

@Greg:

I have to disagree. I don't think this changes that about them at all.

In fact it only solidifies in my mind the concept that they are essentially the WG versions of Garp in that they want to be as close to a position of power (as realistically possible for them) to be able to assist or potentially influence it in their own way.

How does this square with Gandhi's angry rant about big purges and calling the Nefertaris "traitors" in a way that sounds almost bitter?

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

@Robby:

I'd be a lot more worried about the introduction of Im if this were 10 years down the line post raftel and in the final arc of the series, as a last minute addition Oda threw in just to provide someone to punch, the way Naruto handled it.

But setting it up this far in advance, and with the ties to everything else we know about, it should be fine. Its not a last minute deus ex machina, its final puzzle pieces appearing before the story starts locking into place.

As long as blackbeard doesnt become a sacrifice to hype IM or an ally Im fine. Blackbeard is too good of a final antagonist for oda to switch up and have him be an appetizer to some Hawkeye'd KKK looking King we're meeting this late

[wolfwood]

Even going from conflicted world leaders who carefully play a game of chess with ever changing pieces to middle men/custodians who either carry out the will of or try to minimize the damage caused by said ruler feels like a pretty hefty change in direction for their characters.

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

@Greg:

Not confirmed. Still speculation so probably best to avoid stating it as fact.

I'm in agreement regarding the almost uncanny resemblance, but even so stating unconfirmed ideas as facts can be problematic down the line.

A little 'probably' goes a long way.

I have to disagree. I don't think this changes that about them at all.

In fact it only solidifies in my mind the concept that they are essentially the WG versions of Garp in that they want to be as close to a position of power (as realistically possible for them) to be able to assist or potentially influence it in their own way.

I mean Samurai gandhi still said its time for a great "cleansing" or whatever that term implies. They are dedicated to protecting their version of what they think peace is but they'll kill innocents to do it. However sad they are doesnt mean they're not still villains IMO. No matter how they got there, they are still behind the decisions, they are letting the dragons cause terror, they are allowing slavery in certain places and they do nothing because they fear what change can bring.

Garp for all his goals at least didnt achieve a position where he could directly influence the world (IMO This IM probably lets them make most choices IMO? Only intervening when it's very necessary). They're either zealots and / or cowards and the blood is on their hands regardless.

And tbh this chapter didnt change my opinion on them either way, I just figure if oda is trying to make them redeemable he's got a long, long way to go IMO. Sakazuki and Blackbeard IMO are easier to redeem than the gorosei as a whole.

[Shergal]

@wolfwood:

Even going from conflicted world leaders who carefully play a game of chess with ever changing pieces to middle men/custodians who either carry out the will of or try to minimize the damage caused by said ruler feels like a pretty hefty change in direction for their characters.

I've been thinking about this and did we ever see them act in a way that evokes this whole 4D chess idea? Most of their presence is reduced to spouting exposition + cryptic futuretalk; their direct interactions with the larger world are condoning straight genocide (however much people think some shadowy half-frown excuses it) and being all giddy about Spandam's plan to steal an Ancient Weapon (doesn't this go completely against the idea that they want to maintain stasis in the world?). I guess they also got chewed on by Sakazuki and had no comeback to his sick bantz.

The Gorosei have always been more interesting because of the fantasies we generate around them than because of anything in the actual manga, if you ask me. They have been a pending account since forever, and their character as an institution hinges more on whatever the ancient backstory will turn out to be than whatever they do now. Our judgment of their vision and plan for the world is completely contingent on what the erased history ends up entailing.

[Kaido King of the Beasts]

Yeah, the Gorosei have always felt like reactionary characters. Crocodile was removed as a Warlord? Replace him. People researching the Void Century? Kill them. They're working to protect a long-established balance; if I had to guess, Im is probably the mastermind behind that balance.

[Greg]

How does this square with Gandhi's angry rant about big purges and calling the Nefertaris "traitors" in a way that sounds almost bitter?

Ever seen Game of Thrones?

If you're selling an act, you're not going to walk around in a hallway in the center of world power going:

"Gee, I hope our super secret plan to try and ever so slightly try to keep the world in some semblance of balance under the supreme influence of the King(?) of the World(?) goes well!" ^o^

Their reaction in Chapter 395 shows VERY clearly that in a controlled environment, (ie. not walking the hallways of Pangea where even in this very chapter they completely unknowingly happened upon KotW) they react differently and are filled with self-loathing over what they do.

People wonder how I can sometimes call character actions/motivations. It's because I'm looking at the characters' actions, not just listening to what they say. If you're doing that you'll be caught off guard by not just Oda, but any author 10 times out of 10.

I'm not hardlining that they're good people now. I believe that they've been doing what they do for so long and they know so much that they believe what they have to do is ABSOLUTELY necessary to maintain balance in the world. And for that reason they're dangerous. But, like I said earlier, it's Luffy (and therefore Oda's job) to upside down their experience and belief in the futility of standing against whatever this force is. And that's tough. But it's his job and he's really good at it.

If you've gotta wonder what they're trying to protect people from and what we know of Ancient Weapons, it's not too difficult to consider that this character controls or literally is Uranus. A weapon that, gee, just might want to target another ancient weapon.

[Nilitch]

So, Vivi is an ancient weapon. That damn Cobra tricked us all. goddamn

I wish two of the Ancient Weapons weren't Luffy's princesses though

[otakufan]

@Nilitch:

So, Vivi is an ancient weapon. That damn Cobra tricked us all. goddamn

I wish two of the Ancient Weapons weren't Luffy's princesses though

Considering the blueprints to the Pluton were a major plot point for Water 7/Enies Lobby, the odds of that are rather low…

Obviously the Uranus is still an option, but I doubt Alabasta has been sitting on two Ancient Weapons at once (knowingly or otherwise). More likely, it's either in Mary Geoise as the WG's trump card or with Enel on the moon...

[Artur]

@Greg:

Not confirmed. Still speculation so probably best to avoid stating it as fact.

I'm in agreement regarding the almost uncanny resemblance, but even so stating unconfirmed ideas as facts can be problematic down the line.

A little 'probably' goes a long way.

Sorry, I tend to avoid overuse of "probably/might" for the sake of not sounding like a broken record. With that said, for me I don't really think it was anyone else than CP0, or at least someone in a similar administrative position. Their location on Mariejois/Mary Geoise and their clothing being very similar to that of CP0 just feels like too close of a similarity, even if it isn't officially confirmed. Though even if he were to be just a government worker, I still believe the possibility that the orders might've come from Im himself in some way.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Kaido:

Yeah, the Gorosei have always felt like reactionary characters. Crocodile was removed as a Warlord? Replace him. People researching the Void Century? Kill them. They're working to protect a long-established balance; if I had to guess, Im is probably the mastermind behind that balance.

Peace at what cost though, I wonder. I always found the WG interesting since while they have provided a big balance and peace across the world, they've also caused a lot of misery and the Gorosei are clearly perfectly fine with that. As Koala puts it, the idea of the WG in itself isn't bad, it's just how the Celestial Dragons have carried it and how they abuse such power. And god knows what other darkness lays deep within now that this can of worms is open.

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

@Artur:

Sorry, I tend to avoid overuse of "probably/might" for the sake of not sounding like a broken record. With that said, for me I don't really think it was anyone else than CP0, or at least someone in a similar administrative position. Their location on Mariejois/Mary Geoise and their clothing being very similar to that of CP0 just feels like too close of a similarity, even if it isn't officially confirmed. Though even if he were to be just a government worker, I still believe the possibility that the orders might've come from Im himself in some way.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Peace at what cost though, I wonder. I always found the WG interesting since while they have provided a big balance and peace across the world, they've also caused a lot of misery and the Gorosei are clearly perfectly fine with that. As Koala puts it, the idea of the WG in itself isn't bad, it's just how the Celestial Dragons have carried it and how they abuse such power. And god knows what other darkness lays deep within now that this can of worms is open.

I figured that the assassination was done by the gorosei, I really dont think CP0 would have any pull over doffy (it'd be more the other way around) but I guess they could have been middle men. Either way moriah isnt important enough for the KOTW to get involved

[Artur]

@Long:

I figured that the assassination was done by the gorosei, I really dont think CP0 would have any pull over doffy (it'd be more the other way around) but I guess they could have been middle men. Either way moriah isnt important enough for the KOTW to get involved

Yeah that's what I believe. I'm sure it was the Gorosei or Im himself who made such a choice (my belief of this comes from the statement that "there is someone much high above", which sure, could be the Gorosei, but always led me to believe that there is a superior ruler in the series), I just think that it was CP0 who took care of the briefing to Doflamingo. Considering how Moriah was part of the three powers, I do think it was at least slightly of importance for Im. Maybe not in the same way that the Gorosei imply it, but Moriah was "erased" by having his assassination faked as a death in the war on the newspapers.

[Greg]

With that said, for me I don't really think it was anyone else than CP0, or at least someone in a similar administrative position.

Sure! I think I addressed that. I completely agree that it's pretty difficult to consider otherwise.

…but we're not Oda so what we think is diddly ^o^

And when people start paying attention to your work, it helps to be careful what one states as fact. Those things have a way of staying in the community. I say this as someone who has made those kind of assumptions that became false 'lore' for not only OP but also DBZ. Don't think of it as being a broken record so much as it is being professional.

[Kaido King of the Beasts]

@Artur:

Peace at what cost though, I wonder. I always found the WG interesting since while they have provided a big balance and peace across the world, they've also caused a lot of misery and the Gorosei are clearly perfectly fine with that. As Koala puts it, the idea of the WG in itself isn't bad, it's just how the Celestial Dragons have carried it and how they abuse such power. And god knows what other darkness lays deep within now that this can of worms is open.

Yep. It seems as though the Gorosei truly believe that they're doing the right thing, and they are right that a complete power upheaval in the world could easily prove ruinous to people on a global scale. However, they've fallen short by failing to own up to their mistakes, and, instead of trying to move past them, they only keep piling on atrocities trying to cover it up. They've resorted to countering threatening pirates with…other pirates, and when those pirates do pirate things, the most the World Government will do is attempt to play god and act like they have everything under control. The Celestial Dragons are seeming less and less like a necessary evil.

The government is, say, the owner of a home with a system of faulty pipes made by a suspect designer. Rather than breaking the bank to replace the pipes, the government just keeps applying tape and glue to patch the leaks, and when they lose their effectiveness the government just keeps adding more tape. It may last a pretty long time, but sooner or later the pipes will break and forget about spending money to repair them, the government may lose their home and everything in it.

[SunnyBlue]

Im remind me a lot of this character from the game Journey. It's not even that similar but I can't helped but be reminded of it.

!

@Count:

My issue is that execution-wise, the Empty Throne sitting happens so soon that it doesn't have much of an impact on me. It looks less like an epic twist and more like Oda couldn't come up with a cool way to introduce this character until the very last minute by cobbling up a simple metaphor. "Nobody here is the king. BUT WAIT, OH NO, THERE REALLY IS A KING." And on top of that, a completely new character who we only saw a silhouette of one or two chapters ago sits on it, which also doesn't really impress me beyond generic hype. AND the idea of the Gorosei having a secret boss that at least occasionally gives them commands does not sit completely well with me since I liked how conflicted and pragmatic the Gorosei always are while trying to at least look like a balanced government with both good and bad people than a cliche oppressive empire with one evil mastermind pulling the strings.

I do agree with you in that regard. There should have been some gap in between the reveal of the empty throne & the reveal of an ultimate ruler. It was too fast of a reveal to have much impact. It was literally a 2 chapter gap…
In fact, when Im first showed up, he/she was completely overshadowed by the giant strawhat which take away the impact of he/she being the ultimate ruler.

Ever since DD revealed the existence of a national treasure along with the immortality operation, I (& many others) toyed with the idea of an immortal from the void century living in Marijoa. And that the immortal might be the national treasure.

So, Im didn't come as a surprise for me & I personally like this twist…but Oda could have done a better job in setting up this character to be the ultimate ruler.

We just met Im. We don't know the gender, motives, personality, morality etc. Im may not be an evil moustache twirling mastermind but a morally ambiguous individual who make cruel but necessary decision to preserve the 'balance'. We have too little to go on.
But this character is clearly going to be very important for Void Century plotline.

My bold super cracky not serious theory: Im is the final strawhat member. If Im is an old lady, we will have our grandma crewmate.:ninja::ninja::ninja:

I was just rereading Water 7 saga & Im gives off the vibe of Franky before he threw off his cloak & mask. Franky was the highly mysterious 'villainous' individual who was responsible for Usopp getting beaten to a pulp & the whole money issue.

[auem]

I never get this vibe of 'balance'. We don't know about the history of piracy in OP world,like how long it's going on.Was Roger or Rock the first one to bring pirate age or whether there were others before them.So only thing we know for certain is that WG have been ruling this world for 800 years.
So what they are interested in is simply maintaining the status quo, sugarcoating it with the word 'balance' . Era of piracy created a force to challenge their power, which is some sorts of balancing sitution.But these Gorosei hardly want that,right? Nothing that Gorosei did ever show that their 'pragmatisms' run any deeper than for the benefit of their own kinds. There was no motive of 'greater goods for majority' behind their actions.Even in the present chapter they belittled Nefertari family so unabashedly. Are we still supposed to assume them hating their jobs? Sure Oda can redeem them if he wants,particularly now that there is a omnipotent identity over them, it makes doing so bit easier(and after all if Croc can be redeemed, then everybody has the chance:getlost:). But for now they are just lame villains to me(albeit with cool design).

[Greg]

Even in the present chapter they belittled Nefertari family so unabashedly.

Just last page I explained why that means literally nothing.

It really helps to look beyond dialogue.

Furthermore, although I don't have it in front of me, I dunno what you folks have read but iirc in Japanese he says, "In other words a traitor."

I mean, even if they outright called them traitors I'd still call BS when they're out in the open but that 'in other words' buys them a world of ambiguity.

In other words…according to whom exactly?

[MiyamotoMusashi]

Even then, we have no idea what made the Nefertari family give up pretty much god status and remain in the lower levels.

It´s pretty likely Oda will go down the route of Nefertari family pulling away from the other twenty families since there has to be a reason why the Ancient Kingdom put one of the weapons in Alabasta and gave the royal family a Poneglyph.

[loner89]

@Greg:

Just last page I explained why that means literally nothing.

It really helps to look beyond dialogue.

Furthermore, although I don't have it in front of me, I dunno what you folks have read but iirc in Japanese he says, "In other words a traitor."

I mean, even if they outright called them traitors I'd still call BS when they're out in the open but that 'in other words' buys them a world of ambiguity.

In other words…according to whom exactly?

well, ever since Doflamingo said that the Nefertari family where one of the 20 founding members of the World government, to me it always was kinda strange that if the Nefertari family was along with other 19 responsible or atleast an accomplice of destroying the Great Kingdom why would they keep,guard and protect poneglyph of the kingdom? maybe there is another meaning when five elders says the nefertari family are traitors, maybe the Nefertaris regretted what they did and tried to atone for it by honoring and protecting the great kingdoms legacy wich is the poneglyph!!

[RyaPhoenix]

@Greg:

Just last page I explained why that means literally nothing.

It really helps to look beyond dialogue.

Furthermore, although I don't have it in front of me, I dunno what you folks have read but iirc in Japanese he says, "In other words a traitor."

I mean, even if they outright called them traitors I'd still call BS when they're out in the open but that 'in other words' buys them a world of ambiguity.

In other words…according to whom exactly?

Isn't it possible that he's speaking from a political perspective rather than a personal one? As in, "from the position of the Celestial Dragons and Mariejois, they are traitors for having left". It sounds to me like they're thinking out loud about what they need to do, how far they can allow Cobra to push the envelope before he needs to be nipped in the bud.

[Ukimix]

Revolutionary are running right now their plan to declare the war to the Celestial Dragons.
Part of their plan is goind to happen in the Land of the Gods section of Marie Geoise, where CD's homes are located
Some of the revs, Sabo & co, are in the underground of the Land of the Gods and actually saw Kuma's current condition.
At the same time Bonney has succesfully inflitrated into the very same Land of Gods…
And, Bonney cries, when witnessing Kuma's condition, saying she will never forgive CD's for what they've done to Kuma..

Then...

Bonney is a revolutionary also (or she's executing some indepedent plan at the same time than the rev's one... that'd be tooooo much of a coincidence but...)

It'd be nice to see the Revs has a supernova as a soldier, and Blackbeard and Akainu interest on Bonney could mean she's an important person. So I'm really curious about this possibility.

Any thoughts?

[Robby]

@Greg:

And when people start paying attention to your work, it helps to be careful what one states as fact. Those things have a way of staying in the community..

Just think of how many years the "pirate summit" myth persisted based on one translation for "see you at the top."

Or people still referring to Oda's "A former boss character will join" as something coming up! But which was about Impel Down and the War… NINE YEARS AGO.

Fandom grabs onto weird, wrong things some times.

And of course in Dragonball the "Toriyama planned to end the series on Namek" myth refuses to die.

[Greg]

@RyaPhoenix:

Isn't it possible that he's speaking from a political perspective rather than a personal one? As in, "from the position of the Celestial Dragons and Mariejois, they are traitors for having left". It sounds to me like they're thinking out loud about what they need to do, how far they can allow Cobra to push the envelope before he needs to be nipped in the bud.

Precisely !

[Roronoa Zacho]

I agree with Count, that Eam (yeah, I'm calling him Eam now) sitting on the empty throne came way too early. The empty throne was first shown last chapter and now Eam already sits on it? Oda must be really in a rush (which is a pity IMO, the Location of that arc alone deserves so much better!).

Greg, speakin of GoT:
When you've read about Kuma being a slave and Sabo's as well as Bonney's rescue Mission, with Karusu even saying:"Even if we save him, who knows it'd be the same Kuma we once knew!"
TBH this strongly took me back where Theon's sister tried to rescue him from the Boltons and then he wanted to stay, cause he got turned into Reek by Ramsay.
I got the odd Feeling, that Sabo and Bonney might run into the same Problems with Kuma. After all he doesn't seem to have even a personality anymore.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

And I agree with auem: when I read stuff as "Balance" or "world peace", I just think the WG is one big construction of lies.
Doffy being a warmonger (ok, he blackmailed the CDs to do that freely, but still), Germa66 aiding countries at war, Kano Kuni being assaulted (by Customers of Doffy as it seems).
So there is no world peace. Of course, you have Dragon's men and women revolting here and there, but in the case of Ilusia they helped the People. The WG doesn't give a damn about world peace. They want the Status quo.
Any non-obedient (like Kuma) will face the consequences.
And of course, a "great cleansing" would be their last trump Card. Cause it Needs a lot of cover-up.
And still I am not sure, if they Need Eam for that. They Need her permission, that is for sure. But they ask her who it should be and she should give names. But the "execution" maybe isn't even in Eam's Hands (at least as it has been implied by the "dialogue"). And nothing was done about Roger. However, they did a lot to get rid of his son, so I suspect Eam to be some Kind of Oracle, who sees future threats to that Status quo.

[maxterdexter]

Completelly different genere. Its not a "he was tortured to the breaking point" he was brainwashed through the pacifists project. Thematically and implications are very different.

[desa]

They did get Jimbei to try to to have better relationship with Fishmen.

Also not only did Doffly blackmailed the Celestial so using him as example is disingenuous but on top of that he kept making the people investigating him disappear. Which means they did care enough to investigate and that Doffly was confident enough they would oppose him that he erased them from existence.

[maxterdexter]

Sugar <excalibur face="">.

That fucking Hoby fruit. Did the Elders know about the hoby fruit? I'd guess that knowing that Sugar was the user was Doffy's best keept secret, but having the toys around, it's a show of power to someone with full knowledge of devil fruits, like "do you want to forget who your best agents are?" or "do you want to forget how many agents have you sent?"

I'd guess they keept written record and just checked it ever so often to see "oh, we sent these 5 random agents, that I no longer remember". Violet must have been pivotal to keep the organization clean of moles, after Corazon I doubt that Doffy let anyone work in the castle without a quick scan.</excalibur>

[Roronoa Zacho]

@maxterdexter:

Completelly different genere. Its not a "he was tortured to the breaking point" he was brainwashed through the pacifists project. Thematically and implications are very different.

Outcome stays the same: a failed rescue Mission, because the "victim" doesn't wanna get saved (be it through "programmed brainwashing" or "reconditioning").

[maxterdexter]

The whole point is the complete process, cherrypicking and saying "this is the same as that, except only if you see it this specific way" doesn't count as an homage or an interesting comparison.

Like if we were a Einess Loby you would claim the same as Robin, or during the war for Ace. The hostage is unwilling to participate on their escape wasn't invented by George RR Martin.

[Roronoa Zacho]

@maxterdexter:

The whole point is the complete process, cherrypicking and saying "this is the same as that, except only if you see it this specific way" doesn't count as an homage or an interesting comparison.

Like if we were a Einess Loby you would claim the same as Robin, or during the war for Ace. The hostage is unwilling to participate on their escape wasn't invented by George RR Martin.

I never said that. But ever since that empty throne came up, a lot of People claimed "yeah, GoT in OP!" and whatnot. Of course RR Martin hasn't invented thrones or this "escape-Scenario". I just said:"That whole Situation with Kuma and Sabo/Bonney trying to rescue him REMINDED ME of Theon's rescue-Mission. At least it reminded me more of GoT than the whole throne-Scene. But bottom-line is: it is my personal opinion. I am not saying Oda was inspired by Martin there.

[Kdom]

@Ukimix:

Then…

Bonney is a revolutionary also (or she's executing some indepedent plan at the same time than the rev's one... that'd be tooooo much of a coincidence but…)

It'd be nice to see the Revs has a supernova as a soldier, and Blackbeard and Akainu interest on Bonney could mean she's an important person. So I'm really curious about this possibility.

Any thoughts?

Really there is never to much coincidence in mangas

[.access timeco.]

Also, it seems like the Reverie is the only occasion there is a chance for outsiders to enter Mary Geoise (even if it is only royalty), so it makes sense that anyone trying to make a move against the CD would see that as an opportunity.
We know Bonney particularly aimed for it so she could enter the place as the Sorbet queen and we'll probably find out later the RA also had a reason to target this occasion.