@black-leg-jex said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas Mate, I don't know about you but the last time I went to the beach the sand didn't try to drink me dry of my moisture. And I can't think of any other series where this is a thing either. the fact is, Crocodiles ability to drain people of their moisture and turn buildings to sand is way more inline with what we saw of Doffy and Katakuri than of what we know about Logia, which has so far been shown to let it's user become the element it's based on and generate that element from their body. If it has any affect on the outside world it's a natural one, like fire burning and ice freezing. Sand doesn't sit there and drain people of their liquids.
I think you missed the part where I said "very strong comic book exaggeration". I'm not saying that real world sand drains water out of people. But the actually existing property of absorbing water is taken to the extreme with Crocodile. Unless you are trying to tell me that sand doesn't absorb water which would be obviously wrong.
And Crocodiles fruit can be an awakening and it still makes sense that Luffy beat him. Luffy only beat Crocodile by hitting him with liquids, first was water (the weakness of all devil fruit users) and second was blood which causes sand to get havy and not break apart. Crocodile's awakening doesn't change that. Also re: Haki, Crocodile never punches Luffy. He exclusively uses his power and stabs him. He never needed to use Haki on Luffy as it wouldn't change anything and would drain Crocodile of energy for no reason.
Or perhaps he didn't use Haki because he just didn't have it back then? The whole meta level point of Haki is to have a tangible concept that would explain how pre-timeskip characters (both heroes and villains) can have a sudden power increase to still play a role post-timeskip. Same with Awakening for the later part of the post-timeskip. If you suddenly make characters already excel at both pre-timeskip that entire concept fails.
A very good way how to handle pre-timeskip characters having Haki is actually Enel. He has a natural affinity for Observation Haki which is very strong. But he doesn't seem to know the full extent of what he can pull with it. Thus there is still room for growth for him. But having Crocodile be a veteran at both Haki and Awakening for decades would feel counterproductive as an explenation for why he suddenly raise to Emper commander when he didn't do so in decades.
Moving back to Impel Down now, unless you think the entire first half of the story takes place in a week or two, then it's obviously been months, or he's at least been imprisoned that long. The Straw Hats travelled 3/4 of the world in the time Crocodile was beaten to him escaping Impel Down.
I'm not saying that he hasn't been in Impel Down for quite some time, I'm saying that it's unlikely he has never left his cell during that time. Just look at Daz Bones. First time we see him he is made to do some heavy work outside of his cell. Later when Crocodile finds him he is sitting comfortable in his cell. There's no reason to think that Impel Down keeps prisoners in their cell 100% of the time.
As for the level 6 situation, it's a big point that they don't torture those prisoners. There is no point. It was said that when Crocodile was brought in he was placed in lava and didn't react because his willpower/strength is that strong. So he was placed in Level 6 with all the other worst criminals.
That goes against the entire concept of torture and punishment. Just because he didn't react to one thing it doesn't mean torturers will be like "aw well, I guess there's nothing we can do about so let's just leave it there". People who conduct in torture will only feel more motivated to proceed until they finally get a person to their cracking point.
And sure, we don't see any focus on him so I can't say for sure he got weaker but equally, you can't say he got stronger either. Marineford Crocodile could easily be the same level of power as Alabasta Crocodile. The story doesn't contradict that idea in anyway. And given that Crocodile was enough of a threat that he managed to hit Warlord status before he even hit Supernova status, and that he's fought an emperor before in the New World and survived it, being able to leave and keep his own crew. I would say he's framed as pretty powerful. But the story needed him to be beaten by Luffy this early and so he was, and it was done in a way that can make sense regardless of Crocodiles place in the world.
You're right that I cannot say for sure as I'm not writing the story. But that doesn't mean that what I'm saying is not more likely considering the usual approach how Shonen series work. As stated previously antagonists who lose but are kept around usually power up too. Cross Guild Croc is definitely stronger than Arabasta Croc. And by Shonen logic an gradual increase is just more likely than him getting weaker between Arabasta and Marineford only to then suddenly switch to getting stronger again from Marineford on. That's not how Shonen usuall works.
Bringing this all back to Shiki, it doesn't matter if Shiki was seen as a rival to Roger. As far as the story framed him in chapter 0, he never won a battle. And there isn't anything to say he was still as strong as he was in the past, other than just assuming he stayed exactly the same as he was back then. So Luffy being able to beat Shiki in the pre-time skip is perfectly fine, which is what this argument was originally about.
You don't have to beat someone to be considered their rival. And everything else we already covered. Why do we need to come back to this again? If you write a story about Luffy taking on a rival of Roger then you obviously create a certain set of expectations. That's common sense. If you don't want such expectations then just don't go writing a story about a rival.
As far those expectations being overhyped is concerned, that's not really the case because the story itslef portrays to be up there. He easily can lift islands into the air. Something of that magnitude only Newgate was able around that time, who's yet another rival of Roger. And he was still the world's strongest man even though he's said to have been even stronger in his prime. If you show two rivals of Roger around the same time, both being able to move islands then it's not the audience overhyping things. It's the story itself framing the rivals in a certain way. And then we end up with Shiki easily defeating the Strawhats in round one which further cements him being vastly superior. Again that's nothing the audience does but the story itself.
