@ARTEMlS All fair enough mate. Nothing wrong with personal preferences. Just wanted to put some things into perspective. In the same manner, you've also helped me put my things into perspective with the "nature was there first" argument. That's definitely a difference between the Paradise and the New World islands. In the end it really doesn't make a difference to me but I can see how it can be a factor to someone to whom this matters.^^
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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@Alfiere The "Run Piece" was also great, in hindsight. Like Oda was just so creative during that arc, even if certain things are going to both people. Law switching the Straw Hats bodies around was really interesting. Smiley was fun and built the lore of Devil Fruits in a pretty immersive way. I remember being kind of bored by the end when reading weekly, but I think it's an arc that does really well on rereads.
@kouch_lee said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Man, WCI is good. Talking trees, rivers of juice, King Kong Big Mom, the mirror world, chess piece soldiers, candy stairs, shouting giraffe juice, people stuck in books, talking doors, musical numbers, Big News, tart battleships and tart tanks with sentient, dumb as hell cannonballs that can be fooled into changing trajectories...We were eating so good and yet most didn't appreciate it.
I think WCI is about as good as One Piece can get. It's definitely in my Mt. GOATmore of overall arcs along with Sabaody, Jaya, and Water 7/Impel Down. I know Impel Down gets some shit on AP, but I rewatched it recently and it was pretty great alongside Water 7 and Post-Water 7.
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I've enjoyed the way that New World islandsd seem crafted by powerful fruit users or other forces, but I'm hoping the next island is a return to the idea of crazy islands based on the crazy climate of the New World.
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I'm always so happy to see WCI becoming a modern classic. Nowadays it's super common to see people ranking it among their favorites, and new readers especially rank it pretty high. That's such a contrast compared to the time of weekly reading when forums were filled with all kinds of criticisms and almost no appreciation. But I was such a huge fan of WCI from beginning to end, and couldn't understand why it was not more popular. It reignited my love for One Piece.
Now let's wait to see how Wano will be perceived by fans in a few years.
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I like pretty much everything from WCI... outside the Sanji's drama that simply didn't (and still doesn't) work for me. Which prevents me from appreciating the arc as much as I should.
Still one of my favorite arc post-ts because I completely dig the Charlotte Familly and Totto Land -
@theackwardstation The arc's biggest problem is the time spent on the chase at the end, with Luffy's fight being split throughout so many chapters.
And week-to-week those problems felt much bigger.
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@andre said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I think WCI is about as good as One Piece can get. It's definitely in my Mt. GOATmore of overall arcs along with Sabaody, Jaya, and Water 7/Impel Down. I know Impel Down gets some shit on AP, but I rewatched it recently and it was pretty great alongside Water 7 and Post-Water 7.
What is this Impel Down slander doing in here? Impel Down? Getting shit? The fuck?
No, but for real, 100% legit question: Impel Down got shit in here?...Why?
I've always had a massive soft spot for Impel Down. It's brought down a couple notches cause by the end Oda enters speedrun mode (becoming the potential blueprint for the whole "lotsa people running and, once in a while, dealing with a foe...but shortly" thingie most people seem to associate modern day One Piece with
), but, for once, it actually works in context because, well. . .it's a freaking jailbreak and they can't just stop and partake in long fights? They HAVE to keep going?Unlike some other arcs, like Punk Hazard we were just talking about, I wouldn't have minded 1-2 extra chapters of Impel Down. I was left wanting more Sadi-chan, more Saldeath and, yes, more Hannyabal, who managed to be pretty damned good with what he got, but he got the short end of the stick with Luffy curbstomping him in less than 2 pages. Didn't quite vibe with the fodderization of the Jailer Beasts either (1 jailer beast - uber difficult foe to vanquish. 3 jailer beasts - defeated in a double spread. 4 jailer beasts - offpaneled).
But everything else is Peak One Piece? The different levels? Buggy? Galdino? Mr 2? The fight versus de Minotaur? The sphinx? Luffy vs Magellan? Mr 2? Ivankov? Croco, Jinbe and Mr 1 stealing a ship? Wax power vs Poison? Blackbeard? Blackbeard being oneshotted by Magellan?
Mr 2?
That arc is top notch, no questions asked.
@theackwardstation said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I'm always so happy to see WCI becoming a modern classic. Nowadays it's super common to see people ranking it among their favorites, and new readers especially rank it pretty high. That's such a contrast compared to the time of weekly reading when forums were filled with all kinds of criticisms and almost no appreciation. But I was such a huge fan of WCI from beginning to end, and couldn't understand why it was not more popular. It reignited my love for One Piece.
Now let's wait to see how Wano will be perceived by fans in a few years.
WCI got some legitimate flame for how some characters were treated (the Sanji stuff felt a bit forced at times?), how some corners were cut (suddenly, we are told that thanks to Nami, Luffy found a way to fight Cracker for 10 hours straight...but we were not allowed to see it in real time but through dialogue), and maybe having an exaggerated expectation of just how bonkers the wedding crashing would be (the chaos was a tiny slightly less chaotic?)...and then when they started fleeing from Big Mom it got a weekly shitstorm because "end it already nothing is happening".
And while even I admit some of those complaints hold water and are not just bitching for bitching's sake and there's some writing issues...the last third of the arc is one of the most enjoyable things in the entire manga. Yes, the part were "nothing happens" is such a magnificient, mouth watering conga of memorable moments that it single-handedly elevates an already very good arc into an excellent one.
Hell, Oda even course corrected the off-paneling and corner cutting with the Katakuri fight, which delivered in ways I think most weren't expecting.
I still don't know if I would put it in the "holy trinity" league alongside Alabasta, Water7 and Skypiea, but. . .it's not far behind.
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I have 3 peak arcs. Arlong Park who I consider one piece at his most earnest, Alabasta who I consider to be the best One piece big plot arc and Imperel which is very different from typical one piece with the claustrophobic atmosphere and a villain given real moral ground.
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@kouch_lee I have many little nitpicks for WCI too, like the one you mentioned about Cracker's fight, but little issues like this are to be expected in any big arc. What matters to me is that nothing major remotely disturbed the quality of the arc for me, whereas there were many strong moments throughout the adventure. And I totally agree with you that the chase sequence (which attracts a lot of criticism) was super fun to read even weekly, especially because it lets all SHs+Carrot shine, and Luffy vs Katakuri is arguably the best fight in One Piece. And I love the concept, the tone and the aesthetic of the story, characters and location.
Most importantly, I enjoyed the hell out of anything about Sanji, Luffy, Nami, Brook, Carrot, Jimbe, Pedro, Chopper, Big Mom, Katakuri, Pudding, Capone and all the secondary cast. WCI is the best character-centric arc since Enies Lobby.
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@ARTEMlS said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas Yeah, it's personal preference and only a minor issue for me compared to some of the bigger problems of present day One Piece.
The main difference, though, is that for most Paradise island it feels that nature was there first, and then humans came and had to adapt to it, whereas in the New World it's the other way for most islands (at least the main ones on the Strawhat route).
Like Water 7, sure, that city is manmade. But at first there was the Aqua Laguna and then came people and as a result of the nature phenomenon they build a water themed city around it. Same for Drum or Alabasta, first there was that very specific climate and as a result we got kingdoms who had to adjust to the nature.
And that is what I'm missing. Not for every island, but at least for quite some of these New World islands.
I never thought about it, but reading your discussion with @Ivotas I started to wonder, what if it is intentional that the New World is crazy not because it just is, but because it is a "manmade" hell?
I mean, thinking about it, there shouldn't be any reason for that half of the Grand Line to be naturally crazier, but considering that is the part the Marine has no control over and pirates and other organizations are constantly having territorial fights there, the fact those islands being abnormal as a result of their actions might be the point. -
I don't think the Paradise portion of the Grand Line is crazier or whackier than the New World. In fact, most islands are fun/interesting because of manmade factors: Whiskey Peak looks like a giant cactus because it's a cemetery; Little Garden has those giant skeletons because Dorry and Brogy fished those sea monsters; Alabasta, Water 7 and Enies Lobby have beautiful architecture; etc. Obviously, there's creative fauna and concepts everywhere, but that's also true for the New World.
And I have a theory that the climate/gimmicks of different islands in the Grand Line is due to DF Awakenings in the past. For example, why is Enies Lobby always sunny? Perhaps because a past Pika Pika User awakened and transformed the environment (or perhaps the Nika Nika User did it), and perhaps the giant hole under the island was caused by the Yami Yami User. So Enies Lobby would be just like Punk Hazard.
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Greg I don’t know if you can answer this but I was wondering when the Marine civil war happens which sides the different admirals and vice admirals will be on?
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@kouch_lee I actually meant water7/envies lobby, lol.
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Question for Greg. How did the Manga world--editors and mangaka--react to gear 5 Luffy? Regardless of how anyone felt, the overall idea and mechanics of the power up seem super ballsy to me.
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Regarding WCI, I'd need a minor essay to go over my various hangups with the arc, but I don't think the chase is an issue, and theres tonnes of arresting, cool rollercoaster moments throughout. The arc also benefits from having a (comparatively) restrained cast. But theres all sorts of choices and resolutions (or lack thereof) that just bug me.
- A lot of plot beats/character repositionings are really sweaty in order to work (for example Wadatsumi and the boat), with several characters popping into existence to bluntly facilitate a certain outcome - like Katakuri fangirl Flampé, latecomer nonentity Streussen suddenly being supremely important, or worst of all, random eggplant guy sleeping in Sanjis bed (the amount of hoops needed to get Sanji and Luffy to meet back up is something else)
- The Vinsmokes are initially executed well as hateable assholes, but I find them and Sanjis new backstory very conceptually jarring, and them being positioned as "COOL" near the end is pretty maddening.
- The resolution to Sanjis handcuffs and the Zeff hostage situation feel very flat, and trading those stakes for "Sanji needs to save his Just Introduced Family of Supreme Assholes (Because Zeff cares deeply about honoring your blood ties?) feels like a major step down.
- I remain the only person on the internet who's totally bothered by the "Lets use CC warcrime rockets to assasinate Big Mom" scheme no matter how many times I hear rebuttals of "Moral greyness" and "end justifies the means" because the story itself expresses zero awareness of it being supposedly "Morally grey". As fun as Bege is, working with him after his attempted murder of Pekoms, and a big speech from Jinbe about how he betrays people for fun, also seems like something that there should be some textual awareness of, but not really.
- trying to wring sympathy for King Baums "sacrifice" also feels tone deaf, considering he was forcibly roped in against his will
- I wish Pedro wasn't so boring, considering his sacrifice.
- the Katakuri fight has a lot of cool imagery and has interesting characterization for Katakuri, but it has some issues- Luffy landing hits on Katakuri due to the latter being flustered doesn't carry forward in the fight, neither does it feel like Luffys CoO upgrade does -the fight ends up going so long - both in terms of chapters and in universe time -that it ends up feeling as if Luffy is "allowed" to keep going until he wins. Which you can say about many fights, but theres a balance to strike to make it believable, and I think Luffy v Katakuris balance is off, where it feels like save for a few hits Luffy is on the back foot for like 12hrs plus of continuous fighting, until he suddenly wins. And as said Katakuris characterization is interesting, but the beat of him murdering his subordinates to protect his image ("The thing Luffy hates most") feels completely forgotten by the end where we're supposed to find him sympathetic, and where Luffy even helps protect his image. I like the idea of "Perfect Big Brother is a bit tired of being perfect", but I think this moment goes too far into standard OP villainy mode for how otherwise "honorable" the fight ends up as.
- The arc ends feeling like theres a lot of shoes waiting to drop with Big Mom, that still haven't dropped post-defeat and might not ever. And even if there was never supposed to be any further follow up with Sanjis whole cake-baking business, I don't feel the callback to his "I'll feed anyone!" mantra fully works - with Gin he earns his respect by feeding him out of the kindndess of his heart with nothing to gain, but with Big Mom the cake is a means to deflect the wrath of someone he's just tried to have assasinated, not really something he does because Big Mom is starving, or for the sake of her children or something.
All that said...It's definetely among the best Post Skip arcs. Probably the best. Like much of Post Skip I feel like some things could have used more time, some things are real sweaty, some things are glossed over...but it also feels more streamlined and cohesive than other post-skip arcs, and as said, more character-focused. Comparing the last chapter of Whole Cake feels like a world of difference to the last chapter of Wano, though Whole Cake arguably gains a lot by leaving the threat of Big Mom for the future to deal with.
Also, It's gonna be rough revisiting the Vinsmoke scenes, knowing that in the end all judges genetic tampering did take, and was even beneficial.
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@andre said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@kouch_lee I actually meant water7/envies lobby, lol.
Oh, so I went into an ID rant for nothing. Well, that is embarrassing...
...Ennies Lobby DOES get shit around here, you're absolutely right. I need to re-read it some day, I know I don't dislike it, but I'm a bigger fan of the Water7 part.
@Daz What can I say, you didn't write any lies in there. WCI's writing IS wonky. To me, though, WCI is an arc I "vibe" with, where I let myself go for a ride, and it is a great ride. Questionable writing choices often lead to genuinely good moments. All the contrivances you just mentioned (even though eggplant guy falling asleep on Sanji's bed is so stupid it ends up being funny) are definitely eyebrow raising, but they lead to Sanji shedding a tear in the rain as he finds Mummified Luffy waiting for him at the spot he said he would wait for him, and then Luffy finding the messed up bento box delicious cause Sanji cooked it, which also just happens to be the "usual" meal Sanji crafts for the crew. All that is heartwarming, it's a nice, warm blanket on a winter's night.
Sanji's threats are nullified too easily, but that leads to Reiju becoming a gasp character of her own, and at that moment Sanji can leave, he knows it, but he makes excuses cause he doesn't wanna leave and let people die because of that choice, even if those people are his shitty family. If we're to buy the whole "Sanji is the kindest human being in the planet bar none!" theme which is on its own already questionable (the guy that wanted nothing to do with the Punk Hazard kids until Nami begged him to protect them is THE kindest in the galaxy?), that moment is necessary to hammer that point home. Even the shittiest family in the planet he cannot let die! Of course, it all goes down smoother thanks to Reiju being one of the ones left to die, and she's retconned into being nice (she clearly put explossive bracelets on him, Oda decided those were fake after the fact. I'm sure of it).
I'm not saying to embrace bad writing if it leads to good stuff (I didn't like Sanji beating Luffy up...but damn if that wasn't nicely drawn), but I'm making that compromise here and there if I feel the payoff is worth it. BTW, I know I'm making this compromise cause this is One Piece. I would be much less lenient with, say, Hunter x Hunter or Naruto or Bleach. Hypocritical, I know.
The Katakuri fight has the problem you mentioned which kind of alligns with Zoro vs. King - this guy has a weakness, gotta find it, it's crucial! But, meanwhile, let me just hit him harder. Oh look, it works.
It's actually more nuanced than that (Zoro notices how King works and addapts to that...WHILE just hitting him harder and harder cause he learnt CoC coating while fighting, and Luffy does notice he has to circumvent Katakuris insane CoO...while developing an insane CoO of his own to counter Katakuris', instead of using distractions and the like), but yeah, it goes into meatheaded territory which. . .has always kind of been Oda's thing? Punch harder until you win?
On the other hand, the visual presentation of the fight is quite possibly the best in the series, and on re-read I even came to appreciate that moment where Luffy runs away, but ends up realizing he has to go back and defeat Katakuri if he wants to be a top dog. Kind of a Goku moment, yes, but I can roll with that.
As for the murder attempt...I got nothing. I can make a headcannon that they go with it because Big Mom is deep down a rotten apple...but so is Bege, who literally shot Pekoms and left him to die not once, but TWICE. We've come to love Bege cause he's possibly the best supernova out there,
but part of the appeal is that he's kind of evil, and the plan is evil, and the SH's know. There's no gray morality here, the SH's are good guys and have always been, so that was kinda weird......but it lead to the plan failing spectacularly, which was tons of fun.
Sanji just wanting to cook the most delicious cake ever doesn't need to link into his "I'll never let anyone starve!" motive, it can just be his pride as a cook. And while I know Greg was disappointed in how that went (no multiple BM sons working together to make the cake with their specialities, which is sadly wasted potential), I actually like some of the stuff that went with that, like the Nova Castello running over Oven followed by Sanji keeping a gargantuan sized cake on one leg while doing Geppou with the other. That's a fantastic visual.
And Big Mom eating the cake? That chapter is one of the best in the entire series, even if it ends with a fake cliffhanger. That's the first time I've seen a sequence choreographed to the lyrics of a song in written format. That chapter, the final chapter you just mentioned and the one during the wedding where I think there's barely any dialogue are Oda doing experiments and succeeding marvelously...and then not doing them again for ¿4 years? (Well, Gear 5 is experimental, so there's that).
Pedro IS boring. Nothing else to add here.
Sanji having awakened genes is terrible, but hey, his mom's sacrifice gave him that but not being a sociopath, which tells us that "genetic engineering is good if it gives you super strength, so maybe that Judge fella was onto something, wasn't he?", but it's not all bad cause it also says "but genetic engineering to take people's emotions away from them so they can murder without feeling remorse, that's kinda messed up, Judge!". It's a genuinely bad development. I remember the crazy theories that what Sanji awoke were actually Lunarian genes on his mom's end and as preposterous as that sounds...it would've been 10 times better than what we got. That coupled with the Germas being COOL as you mentioned makes me wonder what goes through Oda's head sometimes.
Like, does he think the reader's favorite moment is when the Vinsmokes save Sanji and Luffy and start kicking Big Mom's kids around, or when they are getting gunned down with anti-Germa bullets a couple chapters afterwards? Cause I know which moment is my favorite...but which one is SUPPOSED to be our favorite? Do we say "take that stupid Vinsmokes" or do we say "oh, no, they have anti-Germa bullets, the Vinsmokes will be hurt!"? This week, should we go "Damn you Gastino, let Katakuri decimate these assholes!" or should we go "thank god Gastino was there to save the Germa!"?
I got no conclusion here, sorry. Just those scattered thoughts.
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@Daz said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
The resolution to Sanjis handcuffs and the Zeff hostage situation feel very flat, and trading those stakes for "Sanji needs to save his Just Introduced Family of Supreme Assholes (Because Zeff cares deeply about honoring your blood ties?) feels like a major step down.
This is one of the most glaring problems of the recent arcs. The conflicts are weak. Whatever strong conflicts are established at the begin of the arc, at some point they just got replaced by a flat out weaker conflict.
Like Doflamingo is super charismatic and an established underworld figure - who at his introduction completely ridiculed Sengoku by basically openly admitting in front of him that he does all his shady businesses and he and the Marines can do absolutely nothing about it. Then enter Sugar (the most jarring example of a character solely existing to facilitate an certain outcome): Screw the charisma, now everyone hates him and his business empire instantly crumbles, leaving only desperate damage control measures.
Same for Big Mom. Seriously, why should I even emotionally care for anything our protagonists have to face as obstacles? Whenever something might prove to be actually somewhat difficult, I can be sure that it gets replaced by a weaker and easier to solve conflict soon enough.
Besides there never are any actual meaningful negative consequences as a result of bad decisions. Like Nami will not forgive Sanji that easily now, whatever next.
Especially Sanji as a character is absolutely terribly written nowadays:
- Let's face it: He's a Mary Sue. As the world completely revolves around him. Perfect example is the Black Maria encounter who conveniently even called for Robin all by herself.
- His most glaring character flaw, that is, not hitting women, is not treated as flaw at all. Whereas in Enies Lobby he still got called out for his bullshit, nowadays it gets completely unquestioned. It isn't even part of his major flashback, instead it had to be artificially dealt with afterwards in a separate flashback.
- Therefore instead of acknowledging his personality flaws the narrative instead displays them as something positive. Sanji completely failed to overcome his flaws. He completely fails as a positive role model. Deep inside he still has the very same low self-esteem as before. As the not hitting women aspect completely stems from his fear to anger Zeff and therefore be rejected by him. He never properly overcame his fear of being rejected and his no-hitting-women attitude is the perfect testimony.
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@ARTEMlS said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
He completely fails as a positive role model.
So...would you say he would have become a better role model if he had learned to hit women ? I know we're talking about a fictional character in a battle manga about rubber pirates yadda yadda, but that's definitely not the kind of model I'd want my kids to take after.
It is a glaring weakness of his in the context of the manga, sure, but as an author it would be difficult to show him overcome it and then declare that a positive outcome. Like, can you picture Sanji kicking Maria to death, then hit Tama and why not a puppy, while being all "look at me, not a care in the world, how good is this ?" I'm afraid Oda painted himself in a corner years and years ago on this one.
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I'm not a big Whole Cake Island fan, and it's funny because my critiscms are similar to the ones many other people have (mainly revolving around Sanji), but for me it makes it one of my least favorite arcs lol. Maybe I just like the other arcs too much, but yeah. I like Katakuri, Big Mom and her flashback, Bege and most of the other kids (not Pudding tho), Brook was cool, Jinbe was cool, Pedro was cool. Big News Morgans is one of the most fun characters ever. The lore and design of Totto Land was interesting too. I also really enjoyed that the kids seemed to care about the people. Like Oven telling people if they don't wanna break their valuable mirrors to throw them into the sea so they can be retrieved later. It's such a small moment but it always stuck with me cause I don't think any other villain group we've seen would have ever offered that option.
My problems are primarily in the first half with Sanji vs Luffy being my least favorite moment in the whole series. I hate it, it never worked for me. I could rant on it for days, but to put it simply: Nami in Strong World. She is abducted like Sanji, she's forced to comply or her family is in danger like Sanji, but she still resists and asks for help unlike Sanji.
It doesn't help that the reasons Sanji's acts the way he does (Zeff, hand cuffs) just vanish in thin air. (I'm actually currently rereading WCI and the hand cuffs Reiju puts on even "Beep" like regular collars/hand cuffs would. Where the fuck did she find beeping hand cuffs that don't explode lol?)I will say this though, while I enjoyed Wano a lot more throughout compared to WCI, the latter does have the more satisfying ending.
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@Seafarer33 said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@ARTEMlS said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
He completely fails as a positive role model.
So...would you say he would have become a better role model if he had learned to hit women ? I know we're talking about a fictional character in a battle manga about rubber pirates yadda yadda, but that's definitely not the kind of model I'd want my kids to take after.
It is a glaring weakness of his in the context of the manga, sure, but as an author it would be difficult to show him overcome it and then declare that a positive outcome. Like, can you picture Sanji kicking Maria to death, then hit Tama and why not a puppy, while being all "look at me, not a care in the world, how good is this ?" I'm afraid Oda painted himself in a corner years and years ago on this one.
Actually he doesn't necessarily have to hit women. Both options are valid possibilities, though. That is, if only the narrative acknowledges the problem and properly puts Sanji into some kind of conflict, but exactly that does not happen at all.
Besides, it's less about kicking women because they are women, but instead it's about hitting women because they are fucking strong enemies who endanger the safety of all of his friends if not taken care of in some way.
Like Kalifa, because of his stubborness Robin or Nami could have just flat out died there. It's not that his attitude doesn't hurt women in some other ways.
Alternatively, if he decides to stick with not hitting women (which, again, is perfectly fine per se), he could try to fight them without even hurting them. Black Maria actually would have been the perfect enemy exactly for this - with her ending entangled in her webs, unable to move.
That actually would have been a fight I'd love to have seen, but well... That actually would have been an actual harder to resolve conflict, and therefore - of course sigh - immediately got replaced by a weaker and easier to resolve one.
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@Seafarer33 said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@ARTEMlS said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
He completely fails as a positive role model.
So...would you say he would have become a better role model if he had learned to hit women ? I know we're talking about a fictional character in a battle manga about rubber pirates yadda yadda, but that's definitely not the kind of model I'd want my kids to take after.
It is a glaring weakness of his in the context of the manga, sure, but as an author it would be difficult to show him overcome it and then declare that a positive outcome. Like, can you picture Sanji kicking Maria to death, then hit Tama and why not a puppy, while being all "look at me, not a care in the world, how good is this ?" I'm afraid Oda painted himself in a corner years and years ago on this one.
The thing is that a guy who let's him self get beaten up by a woman just because she's a woman is just as bad of a role model. Physical and mental abuse from women to men is totally a thing so while I know this is a kids mange were talking about here, if we're talking about the role model aspect of this both beating up women and letting himself get beat up by women is equally bad.
So how to handle it. It might sound simple but how about just not letting himself get beat up by a woman for a start? The early stage of the Kalifa fight was doing very good on that part because he completely outclassed here while she managed to get in a couple of cheap shots in. If he doesn't want to hit women there's definitely ways to defeat them without actually hurting, which are easy to pull of if he's that much above their league. Hold them up and tie them down, dodge around while controlling your opponents movement in order to make her fall/step into a cage, trapdoor, pool of glue or whatever that immobilizes her without actually hurting her. Block so often and well until a) your opponent either just gives up or b) your female crewmate arrives to switch places with you. In all these cases Sanji would stay a gentlemen who doesn't hit women while at the same time not send the message out that it's ok, to let yourself being a womans punchingbag.
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@Seafarer33 said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@ARTEMlS said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
He completely fails as a positive role model.
So...would you say he would have become a better role model if he had learned to hit women ? I know we're talking about a fictional character in a battle manga about rubber pirates yadda yadda, but that's definitely not the kind of model I'd want my kids to take after.
It is a glaring weakness of his in the context of the manga, sure, but as an author it would be difficult to show him overcome it and then declare that a positive outcome. Like, can you picture Sanji kicking Maria to death, then hit Tama and why not a puppy, while being all "look at me, not a care in the world, how good is this ?" I'm afraid Oda painted himself in a corner years and years ago on this one.
I dont think seeing a female enemy about to kill one of his crewmates and he manage to finally overcome his blockage would send confusing message . You can play on him remembering how he already endangered Robin once because of that (and put Nami in danger too) and he cant do that again. he can do his usual lovey-dovey on the boat at the end of the arc. Displaying being chivalrous doesnt have to be absolute is not confusing. At least I dont think so. I dont know if that would make him a better role model but I dont think it would make him a worse one. Also dont think hitting Black Maria to protect a friend would mean he has to hit Kiku or Hiyori or a puppy after. The point would be to overcome his inability to be an effective protector not live a fantasy about hitting women in general.
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I'm pretty torn about this issue.
On the one hand, a scene like @Ivotas described would be cool as hell, with Sanji himself finding a way around his weakness.
On the other hand, I think Sanji's vulnerability concerning women is a more valuable asset for Oda to create interesting setups and solutions. If I think back, I can only remember Kalifa and Black Maria as bigger villains that Sanji was put up against (Viola was more easily dealt with for story purposes), so it is not exactly overused. And both encounters were solved in a way that uplifted other crew members. In a way, Sanji can be just as weak and needful of protection as Usopp or Nami are, while at the same time, he can take down pirates of Queen's caliber. I, myself, find that an interesting spectrum.
It's not ideal though, that the indicator whether Sanji is a protector or in need of protection is the sex/gender of his opponent. This will obviously continue to create conflict in the community.
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Every strawhat needs one crippling hang up
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The thing about Sanji is that he's all about crippling himself.
Not hitting women no matter what.
Not fighting with his hands no matter what.
Feeding anyone no matter what, even if they're an enemy.
And lately, he decided to never use the Raid Suit again.Sanji is very principled.
I don't think we'll ever see him hitting a woman. His character is all built around not doing stuff.Then again he did use the Raid Suit a couple of times and that development is still ????? to me, so who knows
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@Zanze
I fully expect to see the Raid suit again. Sanji already said he'd ask Franky (and was it Usopp too?) to fix the design and I'm sure that we'll see that happening. I can already see people defending such a possible outcome as the updated suit having erased all evil Germa mechanisms. I myself would find this yet another inconsequential moment in Oda's track record. But we'll have to wait and see if such a development really takes place. So far it's just my speculation. -
Greg when do you think we’re gonna get to see Rocks D Xebec?
Oda purposely had him as only a silhouette in Kaido’s flash back, so I assume he’s saving him for something big
Also I wonder how Oda will make Shiryu a bigger threat than Mihawk, if that is the direction he’s going in
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@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I'm saying that:
The narrative positioned Vivi to join at the last second.
Vivi did not.The narrative positioned Yamato to join at the last second.
Yamato did not.Please define the "Yamato did not" part. Because her claiming several times that she will board Luffy's ship and sail with the Strawhat's, is something I personally would consider as the character positioning herself to join.
Don't get me wrong, I was one of the guys, who said she wouldn't join. So I'm not saying this is a surprise. I'm just trying to understand what it is that you are saying here.
Yeah good question.
They both are part of the crew. That's reality despite what Oda creates. But they're missing the crucial step of being 'onboard' just like Jim Beam wasn't 'onboard' until he settled with Mom.
As far as the story is concerned, Jim Beam 'joined' after Fishman Island but he hadn't yet joined the crew. It's mincing words and positions but it's those tiny differences that the production team abides by (as close as humanly possible) that make the difference between officially being part of the crew or not.
From what we've seen, Vivi is a crew member. And so is Yamato. But they're not 'onboard'. In my eyes, they're both in the same category as Jim Beam before WCI.
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@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Greg said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I'm saying that:
The narrative positioned Vivi to join at the last second.
Vivi did not.The narrative positioned Yamato to join at the last second.
Yamato did not.Please define the "Yamato did not" part. Because her claiming several times that she will board Luffy's ship and sail with the Strawhat's, is something I personally would consider as the character positioning herself to join.
Don't get me wrong, I was one of the guys, who said she wouldn't join. So I'm not saying this is a surprise. I'm just trying to understand what it is that you are saying here.
Yeah good question.
They both are part of the crew. That's reality despite what Oda creates. But they're missing the crucial step of being 'onboard' just like Jim Beam wasn't 'onboard' until he settled with Mom.
As far as the story is concerned, Jim Beam 'joined' after Fishman Island but he hadn't yet joined the crew. It's mincing words and positions but it's those tiny differences that the production team abides by (as close as humanly possible) that make the difference between officially being part of the crew or not.
From what we've seen, Vivi is a crew member. And so is Yamato. But they're not 'onboard'. In my eyes, they're both in the same category as Jim Beam before WCI.
While I don't share your take, I do get your point. Still unclear on the "Yamato did not" part though.
But now I'm more interested in the "it's those tiny words that the production team abides by" part. Is that a general assessment of yours about how the production team operates or are you saying that they are absolutely seeing specific characters that are not on the Sunny to be part of the crew?
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Heh, that is indeed exactly what I'm saying. That's why it's not a 'take' of mine so much as it is an unwavering standard. Some people might not like it or w/e but if they're not on the Sunny, they're not officially part of the 'onboard crew'.
Luffy will go to the ends of the earth to defend them if need be. And they share something thick as blood, but they're not part of the 'onboard crew' even if they're absolutely 'part of the crew'.
Think of it like this, is Vivi a crew member? Yes. She is in all but name. When Oda drew the crew with animals as a rule between splash page arcs, he always made sure to draw Vivi.....
........
...........but she's not 'onboard' and that is a indeed a big difference albeit (in reality) a small one.
At the end of the day, the surest way to tell is merch. It's a damn shame that it's merch but them's the breaks. There are many hard rules I don't talk about but Oda is very very specific (I would argue, to the great benefit of fans) about merch and which characters can/can't be merch'd in certain ways. Without specific, how the 'onboard crew' is handled is very different from other characters so your litmus for 'onboard crew' will always be merch unless there are some massive changes of heart.
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Any chance Yamato will be part of a next generation thing? Maybe at the end of the series Katakuri, Yamato and Uta take up role as captains to replace there Yonko counterpart
Kind of like in Naruto how they had the next generation of Kage in the sequel series Boruto
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@Greg
Thank you very much for bringing up merch because I wanted to do this myself but I didn't because I thought you would say it's not an indicator.Feel free to correct me on this matter, since you know more about the inner machinations. But I always considered merch, and promotional posters to actually play a big role in setting a clear statement who the Strawhat Pirate crew actually consist of. We do sometimes see arc related stuff where the Strawhats are put together in team up posters (like Luffy and Yamato or Luffy and Law) but when we see Strawhat pirates promotional displays, it's Luffy plus numbers 1 to 9.
One reason why I feel this is also important because of something that you also brougth up a many times. The general audience, in other words, not the dedicated fans like us who spend many ours of their private lives discussing various aspects about the series in online plattforms. Of course even a casual reader/watcher picks up who Vivi, Yamato or Momo are. But there's also those guys with just a rudimentary knowledge that just occationally read/buy a volume or tune into the anime. They have a completely different outlook on who the Strawhat Pirates are in which case promotional items and merch plays a big role of identifying the main cast. So I'm glad you brought up merch as I think it says a lot.
So if we go in terms of 'onboard crew' then that's like saying there's something like an 'offboard crew' too. I have no problems with that. My problem would however be though if only Vivi and Yamato would count as 'offboard crew' but not guys like 'Kinnemon and Momo' as those guys relation to the Strawhats is pretty much the New World counterpart of the Vivi-Strawhat Pirates connection.
Also Yamato bonded mainly with Luffy during the conflict. Most of the remaining crewmates she met after everything was over. And she's not even sailed with the Strawhats to begin with. If she is considered offboard crew then guys like Pauly, Kyros and Carrot should too.
I'm not trying to diss on Vivi and Yamato here. I'm just saying that an being part of the crew but no the 'onboard crew' opens an entire new can of worms, if we'd start randomly arbitrarily select one character but leave another similar character out. Hope you get what I'm saying here.
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@Shiebs said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Any chance Yamato will be part of a next generation thing? Maybe at the end of the series Katakuri, Yamato and Uta take up role as captains to replace there Yonko counterpart
Kind of like in Naruto how they had the next generation of Kage in the sequel series Boruto
Would surprise me if she didn't. Yamato has 'new generation' all written over her character.
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Kinemon, Momo and Tama are officially offboard crew now too with official invites, I would think.
The real question is where does Gaimon fall on the scale.
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One Piece GT is gonna be crazy
Edit: because of all the crew members we’ll have
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@Robby said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
Kinemon, Momo and Tama are officially offboard crew now too with official invites, I would think.
The real question is where does Gaimon fall on the scale.
I would say Gimon is in the same tier as Kinemon, Momo and Tama since he's got an official invitation but stayed behind to protect the island creatures. Which was all a lie as it has been revealed he stayed behind to bang Sarfunkel.
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I’m hoping we get to see Black Beards ten titanic Captains bounties soon
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@Shiebs said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
One Piece GT is gonna be crazy
Edit: because of all the crew members we’ll have
Interesting prospect actually. Who would this 'offboard crew' actually consist of? I mean some obvious choices were mentioned here already but who else would fit the bill? We should keep out alliance crews (like Law) and the Grand Strawhat fleet out because their are a different beast in itself.
Personally from the top of my head I think of Vivi, followed by Yamato, Kinnemon, Momo, Tama, Gimon, Pauly, Kyros and Carrot. Who am I missing?
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@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Shiebs said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
One Piece GT is gonna be crazy
Edit: because of all the crew members we’ll have
Interesting prospect actually. Who would this 'offboard crew' actually consist of? I mean some obvious choices were mentioned here already but who else would fit the bill? We should keep out alliance crews (like Law) and the Grand Strawhat fleet out because their are a different beast in itself.
Personally from the top of my head I think of Vivi, followed by Yamato, Kinnemon, Momo, Tama, Gimon, Pauly, Kyros and Carrot. Who am I missing?
Oh man, who knows, I definitely agree with Vivi, Yamato, Momo and Tama
Not sure I agree with Gimon as he has his dream of protecting the animals and he has a partner now
Probably not Pauly either, he was never really an unofficial member, at least from what I remember
Kyros has a daughter and his dream is to take care of her and be a good father
And we’ll see what happens with Carrot in the next few chapters
Oh I know who you forgot! Carue! Although he’s kind of a package deal with Vivi
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@Shiebs said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Ivotas said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
@Shiebs said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
One Piece GT is gonna be crazy
Edit: because of all the crew members we’ll have
Interesting prospect actually. Who would this 'offboard crew' actually consist of? I mean some obvious choices were mentioned here already but who else would fit the bill? We should keep out alliance crews (like Law) and the Grand Strawhat fleet out because their are a different beast in itself.
Personally from the top of my head I think of Vivi, followed by Yamato, Kinnemon, Momo, Tama, Gimon, Pauly, Kyros and Carrot. Who am I missing?
Oh man, who knows, I definitely agree with Vivi, Yamato, Momo and Tama
Not sure I agree with Gimon as he has his dream of protecting the animals and he has a partner now
Probably not Pauly either, he was never really an unofficial member, at least from what I remember
Kyros has a daughter and his dream is to take care of her and be a good father
And we’ll see what happens with Carrot in the next few chapters
Oh I know who you forgot! Carue! Although he’s kind of a package deal with Vivi
I don't see Gimon to be that different from Vivi and Momo tbh. He want's to protect the residents of his island just as Vivi and Momo do. It might be on a much minor scale and the residents are being animals rather than humans. But the basic premise is the same.
I broughty Pauly and Kyros as an example because while they never were neither invited nor asked to join themselves, they have bonding moments with the protagonist just as Yamato did. The only difference to Yamato is that Yamato actually stated that she wanted to join (was he actually ever asked to join? I don't remember).
Especially during the Franky vs. Pauly days, to many members here on the board, the bonding moments are something that to many members of the board plays an integral role of joining the crew. So I didn't want to dismiss this, since if it has value to people here when talking about the 'onboard crew' it should be allowed when talking about the 'offboard crew'.
You're right Carue also belongs there. I didn't mention him because I see him as a set with Vivi. But considering that he's what got me into watching One Piece in the first place, I definitely should have given a shout out to my boy, the toughest motherquacker in this entire series!
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I wasn’t here during Water 7 so I have no idea how certain people were about Pauly joining, but if it’s anything like Wano I could see why people would still hold onto hope about him joining
Again I just don’t see Gaimon joining, I know Luffy asked him early on in the series but I just don’t see it happening, he also can’t really fight like the rest of them, although I guess that’s true for Vivi a bit, but we haven’t seen her in battle for two years so maybe she’s been training
Same thing with Shiroshi, but if Oda doesn’t care about that maybe she’ll hang around also, it would be are first mermaid on the crew, we have a fishman but no merperson
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@Shiebs
Trust me, you didn't want to be here for that discussion. It was like talking against a brick wall. With Yamato at least there were really good arguments to be made for her joining. Like really good ones. It was actually rather harder to explain why some of us just didn't see her sail with the crew. Same with Brook. The amount of reality bending mental gymnastics for why he wouldn't join, was insane. But let's not go down that route again.I see what you say about Gimon. But we're not talking about fighting skills here. Just who would be considered to be on such a crew. That being said, I completely forgot about Shirahoshi. Yep, that one seems to fit the bill too.
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Team Paulie 4 lyfe and you know it
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I was here with a different account back when Thriller Bark was happening and oh my fucking god do you guys remember Perona supporters?
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I remember A perona supporter if nothing else
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@FatDogForMidTerms said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I was here with a different account back when Thriller Bark was happening and oh my fucking god do you guys remember Perona supporters?
FatDogForMidTerms is secretly AGOG confirmed.
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@wolfwood said in Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !:
I remember A perona supporter if nothing else
if memory serves correctly that guy was uhhhh intense
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Perona seems to suffer from the same unimaginative character design as the Buster Call Vice-Admirals.
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How dare you impugn vice-admiral fidel castro like that.
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@wolfwood That's disappointing. I thought you would be getting the reference.