This feels like the kind of thing the Japanese language thrives on.
Vague, non-commital phrasings that let you say something without saying something.
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Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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That's like 80％ of One Piece (^○^)
In this case it could be a galaxy brain move or it could all be because Oda was being lazy. I could be totally wrong about this but the crux of my suspicions rest on my inability to accept Nika as something other than a so-called 'god' created by humanity. If Nika was an actual all-knowing, infallible, omnipotent, heavenly god of divine origin, I stand corrected.
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I mean, you can say a lot of things about Oda, but he's certainly neither stupid nor a bad writer. He's also pretty respectful of his audience 's intelligence usually.
So I'm sure he'll go any length he can to make this awful retcon the most palatable possible.
That of course doesn't mean we'll have to love it, but he's surely not handwaving it and expect we accept it anyway. -
Not a retcon.
Might not like it. Might not feel it fits. But it's been the plan for a looooong time.
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Do you think Enel's "MAX 200,000,000 Volt Amaru" form implies anything about the nature of his own fruit vs. the Gomu Gomu, or is it just incidental?
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Either that, or we'll find that what we know about Paramecia in general is grossly uninformed.
This is exactly what I see happening. Oda made Luffy's fruit special by saying it's the power of a god, but now all he has to do is say that all Paramecia are the powers of gods from 800+ years ago, and suddenly it's just another Paramecia.
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I can buy that Oda actually meant it to be not the gum fruit but the famous guy who had fun powers fruit since the beginning.
But if at any given point no hint was given toward it not actually being the gum fruit or it being by any mean special for the WG… It's still technically a retcon.
Never once it was doubted it was the gum gum fruit.
Every time there was a chance, it was classified as paramecia.
Not once there was a comment by the elders about the fruit..and they talk about Luffy a lot.I believe you if you tell me it was planned since the beginning. But it's a retcon. It recontestualizea everything we've read so far in a way we had 0 chance at doing before.
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Yeah, I think technically it is a retcon as per this definition:
(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
But it's not a retcon per the typical internet culture usage that I know, which is more along the line of Superboy Prime retcon punching a universe and changing how everything works.
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Not a retcon.
Might not like it. Might not feel it fits. But it's been the plan for a looooong time.
Greg, I know you might not be allowed to answer this (hell, maybe you don't even know more than what you said here), but could you clarify in some way how long it's been planned?
There's a huge difference between "planned since Chapter 1" and "planned since the timeskip one month break after thinking about the final compasses of the series and reflecting on the story up to that point". Specially since, as you previously mentioned, Luffy's outfit having sun references in them became a thing in the New World. That would still be a long time ago (both in real time and in number of chapters), but it definitely would help alleviate the sour taste that this was clumsily put together in Wano with Who's Who diatribe, the interruption of Wano action with a location change just for the lore dump from the Gorosei (when he used Acts previously for the sake of this) and the need to present a 7 chapter long mystery (probably the first time something this important lore-wise has been answered so quickly?).
As always, and even if you can't/don't want to answer this, thank you for your thoughtful posts and columns about the series.
Never once it was doubted it was the gum gum fruit.
Every time there was a chance, it was classified as paramecia.If I may add to this, even if the japanese community has been wondering for all these years how and/or why Shanks obtained the fruit (and his possible ulterior motives) beyond just being pirate pillaging things , or how Lucky Roux misteriously had a drawing of the Gomu Gomu as if they were specifically searching for the Gomu Gomu, that could have been answered without changing the fruit's name and category. For example, by virtue of it being Joy Boy's fruit in the past. That is to say, the Gomu Gomu no Mi being more relevant/important that it seemed at first didn't warrant all of this. Just my two cents.
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This change is not a retcon because there's no problem of continuity or inconsistency, as this Nika fruit is not incompatible with past arcs or Luffy's powers… even though readers may feel fooled and betrayed on an emotional level because... the name changed.
It's not a "dramatic plot shift" either, since it only emphasizes what the plot and the MC are all about from day 1.
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Not a retcon.
Might not like it. Might not feel it fits. But it's been the plan for a looooong time.
I know you don't watch OP videos but it fits this discussion like a glove so I'm posting for anyone interested.
Basically the theory is that Oda originally came up with the Nika fruit as Luffy's power, then turned it to Gomu Gomu as a "nerf" for early One Piece power levels.
This is also because Nika fits Luffy as it is the most ridiculous power (which Oda intended from the start) and represents freedom the most (with fits with his character themes). The guy argues the Nika fruit is even a better fit for Luffy than the Rubber fruit. Though he also highlights the rubber fruit has a theme of willpower (rubber always bounces back), which fits for someone who wants to become the freest man in the sea, which now that Luffy has Nika, he can finally be.
So in that case it wouldn't be a retcon, it's the power Oda created from the start, and he just waited 25 years to finally unlock it.
Another point is that as Luffy's powers evolved, they became less and less restrictive, so the Nika fruit just feels like a natural conclusion to Luffy's ability.
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Ryokugyu is in all likelihood plant-based. Just makes sense with the color andnot eating thing. Plus you'd think Toei would jump on that power for a movie. Seems like he put a usage stop on plant powers for tha reason. That's not my theory or anything but the moment I read it, it made perfect sense. That's the risk Oda runs when he leaves these mysteries out there too long.
Didn't Toei have a plant-based henchman in Film Z?
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So in that case it wouldn't be a retcon, it's the power Oda created from the start, and he just waited 25 years to finally unlock it.
We shouldn't analyze a story by what were the author's intentions in his mind, but by what was presented on the page. So even if Oda had it planned from the start, this changes nothing.
In fact, I personally believe that Oda always intended to draw this "final form" where Luffy has all this freedom to use his body, and that Oda wanted Luffy to have his "super sayajin" moment – but fact is that the reclassification of the devil fruit happened abruptly without much foreshadowing. And it could very well be that Oda had other methods to reach this point before deciding on this Nika Fruit idea.
What matters is that the change works in the context of the entire story, both because the powers are still the same, and because it fits thematically with Luffy. There's no real contradiction or any problem of continuity at all. Thus, it is not a retcon.
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Btw, I don't even think this discussion is valuable in general. One Piece is a piece of work written across 25 years. Not everything needs to be planned in advance – improvisation and new ideas are just as legitimate forms of storytelling. At the end of the day, the only question that matters is: do you like it? Discussing if it is or if it is not a retcon is only people inventing "technical reasons" to feel like their feelings are more objective than other people's.
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Now that I think about it, a fruit showing two different 'genre' of power is not first time happening in this manga. Aside from Katakuri, we can go way back to BB vs Ace fight. BB's darkness fruit is a logia, but the gravity like power it also gave was paramacia type.
Maybe we should have taken the hint from that fight… -
Now that I think about it, a fruit showing two different 'genre' of power is not first time happening in this manga. Aside from Katakuri, we can go way back to BB vs Ace fight. BB's darkness fruit is a logia, but the gravity like power it also gave was paramacia type.
Maybe we should have taken the hint from that fight…Blackbeard's ability doesn't function like a logia though. It's just a logia in name. Your right about Katakuri though. His fruit was retconnned to a special paramecia yet for all intents and purposes it remained a logia. Its awakening was that of a paramecia though.
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Greg's live! No idea how long for (or even if he still is - I'm catching up the 5 minutes I missed at 1.5x speed) but it's happening.
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Blackbeard's ability doesn't function like a logia though. It's just a logia in name. Your right about Katakuri though. His fruit was retconnned to a special paramecia yet for all intents and purposes it remained a logia. Its awakening was that of a paramecia though.
It was functioning like logia pretty much regarding those black surrounding darkness(black hole) which was intangible.
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Two of the weirdest devil fruits are also Zoan (potentially?): Baron Tamago and Karasu.
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It was functioning like logia pretty much regarding those black surrounding darkness(black hole) which was intangible.
I'm not sure what you're talking about but I am pretty sure Blackbeard himself does't become intangible, which is what logias do.
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The Mythical Zoan Cat Cat Devil Fruit, Model Mufasa
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I'm not sure what you're talking about but I am pretty sure Blackbeard himself does't become intangible, which is what logias do.
I am talking about those 'black holes' which suck both humans and objects and then release. BB's body doesn't become intangible in any case(which seems special), but then again against proper haki, no logia is 'intangible'.
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Of course, how much has changed in the Time Skip in terms of how he uses the power also has yet to be seen.
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Thanks Greg, I had to take a sick day from work, but I woke up when I normally wake up so that was a fun way to spend my morning.
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I get that retcon has a negative association, but it still feels apt for this because even if it was just as keikaku it is new information that changes everything from chapter one to present, it introduces a retroactively modified continuity.
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Greg, I know you might not be allowed to answer this (hell, maybe you don't even know more than what you said here), but could you clarify in some way how long it's been planned?
I second this. Also, to clarify, what exactly is it that was planned for a loooooong time?
Are we explicitly speaking about Luffy's fruit being the hito hito no mi - model: Joyboy/Nika, when talking about being planned for a long time?
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Some splainin from Gorosei is definitely needed to make their inactivity easier to swallow. Even if it's something comparable to Sabo amnesia. Until something like that happens, it definitely smells like retcon, even if it was planned from the start.
Then again, as someone prone to procrastinating, I can understand if Gorosei kept postponing the decision to commit harder to killing Luffy and getting the fruit, lol.
It will probably turn out to be one of Imu's proclamations or something. Maybe he keeps even Gorosei on the need to know basis.
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They hoped Luffy would get filtered on the early grand line, they actually didn’t know his location ever, and when admirals caught him they weren’t properly briefed.
The one time that the marines got ahead of Luffy, on the resurface from fishman island, they picked the most Luffy route and even then missed him.
And the time that the wg officers had Luffy on sight, Robin and franky were priority, and revealing to spandam anything seems like an awful idea.
3DS FC: 0516-7666-3837
SW-4128-8032-0729
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Now that I think about it, Luffy and co. literally brought Sun to the people (Thriller Bark) .
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Hear me out…
Law has the Ope Ope no Mi and now that it is awakened, he could master it and use the Perennial Youth Operation, which gives a person eternal youth.
Remember when Doflamingo said that the Ope Ope no Mi's Perennial Youth Operation combined with the treasure in posession of the World Nobles would allow one to conquer the whole world? – Chapter 761
Shanks stole the Gomu Gomu no Mi from Who's Who who was sent to Impel Down, kinda harsh for losing a seemingly unimportant fruit.
Turns out Gomu Gomu no Mi is a Mythical Zoan DF, and the Gorousei are afraid of it that it has the power to destroy them (it is implied from their conversation) and have been hunting for it for 800 years. - Chapter 1
It is probably the same fruit that JoyBoy has eaten when he was alive.
Now…What if the Gorousei (upper echelon of the World Nobles) have told the other World Nobles, or at least the inner circle (who Doflamingo says he is a part of) that the Nika DF is in their possession, as to not appear incompetent and hunting the fruit for 800 years in secret until even they thought to be only a legend.
When they finally got a hold of the Gomu Gomu no Mi and found out it was rapidly stolen, they sent Who's Who to Impel down (probably also the rest of the crew that was guarding the DF) to prevent him of spreading the news and let the word get out. Who's Who found out about Nika legend from a guard who vanished afterwards.
Luffy was awakened the power of the Gomu Gomu no Mi and transformed himself into god Nika, which has absurd powers and infinite usability, but there must be a cost to it. So what if the cost of using the awakening of the Gomu Gomu no Mi is accelerated aging and the only way to save the user from dying an early death would be Law using his ultimate ability on him, thus granting him the power to conquer the whole world (in this case, liberate the whole world)?
Just connection some dots with no hard evidence, but it is plausible.
Luffy vs Katakuri Full fight: https://www.docdroid.net/qrFOY9p/luffyxkata.pdf
Luffy vs Cracker Full fight : https://www.docdroid.net/Pk06JZL/luffy-vs-cracker.pdf
Luffy vs Doflamingo Full fight : https://www.docdroid.net/VDl3Ctf/luffyxdoffy.pdf
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Funny enough, in looking to confirm a few things about Who's-Who, I learned that he probably didn't go to Impel Down. It says he went to a prison, but not ID specifically. My guess is it was a facility on MG which would be the only place besides ID where there'd be such a strict grip on control of info or reasonable to expect such info to be known.
Someone mentioned the plant user in Z. Yes, you're absolutely right! I neglected to clarify about making oneself a plant specifically, not just manipulating/growing them.
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So, there might be another super secret prisson, where only Who's who and the source of the Nika legend were?
I mean, we have lvl6 impel down where there was Crocodile, who tried to awaken an ancient weapon, and Doffy is there, Doffy who had the celestial dragons by the short hairs with the secret he has, you can argue that Smoker or whomever got croc could have only reported the coup and rebelion, and him being a warlord dragged him down to lvl6, but Doffy for sure that they know that he has information related to gods and their enemies, and yet he went to Impel down.
Evidently Kaido and King were subjects on one of Vegapunk's laboratories, and Queen in a Caesarish mood decided to betray the science corps and escape with them and the numbers, so it is not insane there are other holding facilities, or even that who's who was there with them, but he has no super rare fruit or is a member of an mostly extinct race, and doesn't seem to have those rugged kuma-ish genes to make him a pacifista candidate I doubt he was there with them
Besides, the timeline shouldn't match, Shanks acted like the gum fruit was recently stolen when he was in fushia village, so unless it was a chain of thievery, and who's who was very unnoticeable during the wano take over, I'd guess he'd joined a few years after "chapter 1"
I dunno, it is weirder that there is a secret breakout of ID, but it is weirder that there is another secret prisson that Doffy didn't get sent to.
Speaking of mostly extinct race, where do the 3 eye folk live(d)?
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Did Who’s Who go to the same prison as the mysteriously absent from Impel Down Arlong? We never have found out where that prison ship carrying the Fishman Pirates went to.
Is it possible that when the Strawhats get to Mariejois Nami and Jinbei will discover that the old Sun Pirates were punished by putting them in this Mariejois facility? Celestial Dragons demanding them as punishment for Tiger’s actions against them? Maybe even keeping them as slaves.
Would be a good place to bring Nami and Jinbei’s stories a full circle for the end of the series.
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Could even be possible that Jinbei went to see Arlong after he was arrested a second time and that’s where Who’s Who saw him. Don’t think it’s mentioned when WW escaped and joined up with Kaido.
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Funny enough, in looking to confirm a few things about Who's-Who, I learned that he probably didn't go to Impel Down. It says he went to a prison, but not ID specifically. My guess is it was a facility on MG which would be the only place besides ID where there'd be such a strict grip on control of info or reasonable to expect such info to be known.
Someone mentioned the plant user in Z. Yes, you're absolutely right! I neglected to clarify about making oneself a plant specifically, not just manipulating/growing them.
I imagined that Who'sWho's went to some prison in or near MaryGeoise, on account of him hearing the legends of Nika, seems like he'd need to be near slaves to hear about the slave saviour myth.
And the WG wouldn't want for him to go around, even in such a closed space like Impel Down, talking about how he went to jail for losing a very particular devil fruit.
Plus he would be guarded by CP0 agents, above his CP9 rank. -
Plant type devil fruit would be cool, I’d love to see a character who fights like the first Hoakge
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My guess is it was a facility on MG which would be the only place besides ID where there'd be such a strict grip on control of info or reasonable to expect such info to be known.
If such a facility exists, it is quite strange for Doflamingo to be in Impel Down and not there as well. Unless, as he says, they sent him to Impel Down only to send an assassin right after…
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Did Who’s Who go to the same prison as the mysteriously absent from Impel Down Arlong?
That might be head canon for many of us (it was for me) but going back to his exposition chap (from what I read) he only used a term for jail, not the name of ID or even 'undersea prison'.
That doesn't mean it wasn't ID. But if Oda wanted to make it easy to connect, he didn't.
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Greg how did Kuma come up with the plans to perfectly send each straw hat to the island that would most benefit them for the time skip?
Do you think a certain scientist helped him?
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Greg how did Kuma come up with the plans to perfectly send each straw hat to the island that would most benefit them for the time skip?
Do you think a certain scientist helped him?
To me the islands all felt quite generic which I kinda liked, as if Kuma gave it some thought but not too much, he just panicked and picked his first guess. Luffy needs to learn haki, let's send him to the island where babies know how to use it. Zoro is a swordsman? Heh, Mihawk is there. Nami used lightning at some point, so Weatheria is nice. Sanji is a cook, oh the meals on Ivankov's island were nice. Chopper is a doctor, the place with advanced medicine will work. Franky does science, Vegapunk's birthplace will work!
I am puzzled about Robin - maybe he has never been/couldn't send people to Baltigo and he sent here where he knew the Revolutionary army would arrive soon? I feel that the only people that were sent to a random place were Usopp and Brook.
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That might be head canon for many of us (it was for me) but going back to his exposition chap (from what I read) he only used a term for jail, not the name of ID or even 'undersea prison'.
That doesn't mean it wasn't ID. But if Oda wanted to make it easy to connect, he didn't.
Maybe it's just a random prison because he managed to get out and nobody ever got out from Impel Down before Luffy broke in.
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That might be head canon for many of us (it was for me) but going back to his exposition chap (from what I read) he only used a term for jail, not the name of ID or even 'undersea prison'.
That doesn't mean it wasn't ID. But if Oda wanted to make it easy to connect, he didn't.
Reading those chapters, I got the feeling that Who's Who was imprisoned in Mary Geoise. After all, while would a slave legend be relevant in Impel Down or some random marine prison? It makes sense that Mary Geoise has its dungeons to punish unruly slaves and rogue agents that know far too much to be trusted elsewhere.
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Greg, hi!
A couple pages back you mentioned that you think ryo has a plant based devil fruit.
My question is do you think it is a paramecia or a mythical zoan going along with the logia, paramecia, zoan trio?
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Not buying that green bull has plant powers. It just seems lame. All the admirals so far have strong/cool powers; so I'm sticking with the idea that he has a strong/cool paramecia like Issho, until proven otherwise.
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Someone doesn't like grass pokemon
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They hoped Luffy would get filtered on the early grand line, they actually didn’t know his location ever, and when admirals caught him they weren’t properly briefed.
The one time that the marines got ahead of Luffy, on the resurface from fishman island, they picked the most Luffy route and even then missed him.
And the time that the wg officers had Luffy on sight, Robin and franky were priority, and revealing to spandam anything seems like an awful idea.
You're just creating excuses for them.
From what they're saying in this last chapter, Luffy was as equal, if not a greater threat than either Robin or Franky. And seeing how they handled securing such a serious threat, even Spandam starts looking competent.
All this on the condition they knew about the true nature of gum gum all along.
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Not buying that green bull has plant powers. It just seems lame. All the admirals so far have strong/cool powers; so I'm sticking with the idea that he has a strong/cool paramecia like Issho, until proven otherwise.
Plant based Paramecia could do anything really, especially those large scale Admiral-level demonstrations of power. Just look what Kishimoto did with wood summons.
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Although I was more a fan of the early uses, where it just summoned "living" forests everywhere.
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Each sea likely has its own prison with Impel Down being the prison reserved for only the most dangerous of criminals. Remember that Crocodile and Baroque Works were sent to a smaller prison in the Grand Line first, before being moved to a prison in the Calm Belt.
Also, when Captain Morgan was arrested, Garp specifically came to pick him up and take him to a prison and/or Enies Lobby. It's possible that the WG has a prison that's specifically for marines or WG agents that betrayed the organisation. It's notable that we saw no ex-marines or WG officials imprisoned in Impel Down, other than Shiryu who was already an employee there so it was probably more convenient to keep him there.
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I could've sworn we saw Arlong leaving Impel Down when Jinbei became a warlord
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Plant based Paramecia could do anything really, especially those large scale Admiral-level demonstrations of power. Just look what Kishimoto did with wood summons.
! [qimg]https://2img.net/h/leitor.dattebane.com/Mangas/Naruto/621/11.png[/qimg]
Although I was more a fan of the early uses, where it just summoned "living" forests everywhere.
Would it be a paramecia or a zoan for you?
I just cant see oda not filling up the logia zoan paramecia.
But I struggle to find mythical zoans with plants? Maybe like an Ent?
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