^
You sound so much like Greg! :happy:
Hahahaha thank you! It's just great admiration for the series
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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Around the midpoint of the series, Luffy's DF started to look weak in comparison to the abilities of other top tiers, which then became a predominant sentiment in the OP community. And if we have the opinion that a rubber body is not a strong power, then this is still true right now – only the reputation of the fruit changed in the last chapter, not the substance.
However, Oda never presented Luffy's powers as weak or a disadvantaged. On the contrary, when Luffy ate the GGF in chapter 1, it was a great treasure of the sea. And then Luffy proceeded to go through the East Blue smacking down a bunch of villains who had no superpower (except Buggy). People would hit Luffy as hard as they could and Luffy would smile back at them saying that he was rubber, so their attacks were meaningless. These rubber powers just put Luffy above everybody else -- and that's the angle from which Oda made us look at the power at the start of the series. Later, in the Grand Line, some enemies started to belittle rubber, but Luffy would scream back at them for it. Metaphorically, rubber was what made Luffy bounce back, what made him the natural enemy of a God, and the ability was a machine for brawling and physical superiority as long as Luffy put in the work.
What made the GGF compelling was not its supposed inferiority, but its whackyness and creative appeal for choreography. In the words of Oda, it is a ridiculous power. And this is essentially true for the Hito Hito no Mi, Mythical Type, Model Nika – it's the same fruit. Even the Awakening is the same thing, but more whacky and ridiculous.
Agreed. But rather than renaming the fruit and it's genre, Oda could have simply said that GGF was the fruit of Nika/JB used 800 years ago
Whichever side wins becomes the Justice.
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Agreed. But rather than renaming the fruit and it's genre, Oda could have simply said that GGF was the fruit of Nika/JB used 800 years ago
A simple rubber fruit having an explicit connection to the sun would be too much of a stretch. Oda needs to explicitly connect Luffy to the sun because Blackbeard is explicitly connected to darkness.
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Agreed. But rather than renaming the fruit and it's genre, Oda could have simply said that GGF was the fruit of Nika/JB used 800 years ago
Well, maybe this change was needed for plot reasons which will be explored only in the future, like the "will" of the Zoan fruits having a purpose in the story, or some other mythological lore. Or maybe not, maybe it was just a gratuitous change for shonen hype!
Anyway, personally I didn't feel like this was a bitter twist because I enjoyed it, I think it's cool and that it matches Luffy. But it does break our trust a little bit, which I guess is fine all things considered – but you fooled us once already, Oda, be careful now!
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But rather than renaming the fruit and it's genre
He didn't rename it.
He didn't repurpose the type.
What it is, is in addition to the Paramecia.
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He didn't rename it.
He didn't repurpose the type.
What it is, is in addition to the Paramecia.
I have seen you make the comment about "True name vs Other name". But the fact remains, that Oda, through Gorosei, has mentioned that is a Zoan.
Now, whether there is a case of "reliable narrator", that is a different issue. But, it is explicitly mentioned as Zoan. Now, Oda can do a Katakuri, and make it Zoan with Paramecia properties, just like Marco is practically a logia. -
But…. he did rename it? Right?
"The other name of the Gum-Gum fruit is the zoan type human-human fruit mythical type, model Nika"
How is that not renaming it and repurposing its type? Oda gave it a new name and clarified that instead of paramecia it's a zoan.
"Aha! But you see, it's actually two different fruits in one" yeah okay, maybe that's cleared out in the future but if we go by just this latest chapter he totally changed the fruit.
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I have seen you make the comment about "True name vs Other name". But the fact remains, that Oda, through Gorosei, has mentioned that is a Zoan.
Now, whether there is a case of "reliable narrator", that is a different issue. But, it is explicitly mentioned as Zoan. Now, Oda can do a Katakuri, and make it Zoan with Paramecia properties, just like Marco is practically a logia.
But…. he did rename it? Right?
"The other name of the Gum-Gum fruit is the zoan type human-human fruit mythical type, model Nika"
How is that not renaming it and repurposing its type? Oda gave it a new name and clarified that instead of paramecia it's a zoan.
"Aha! But you see, it's actually two different fruits in one" yeah okay, maybe that's cleared out in the future but if we go by just this latest chapter he totally changed the fruit.
These two post perfectly summarize my problem with the 1044 chapter (I tried to explain it in the spoiler section, but I wasn't really succesful in the end):
Why Oda forced this rename and retype thing in the first place?
Why wasn't he satisifed with the most simple answer:
Gomu Gomu no Mi is a Paramecia DF, its awakening is focused on giving rubberly properities to the environment and user's own body becomes more special, almost "wacky, cartoony". Luffy calls the awakening Gear 5.
Joyboy had the same fruit in the past, he was also called "Sun God Nika" because:- the people see him as a god, thanks to his DF awakening (it was so special, so supernatural)
- Sun is the center symbol in OP, it represents freedom, Joyboy was a warrior of freedom (so the Sun God connection makes perfect sense).
And that's it.
If we got this in 1044, then I would be the happiest fan OP fan in the world.
I didn't have any problem with the Gorosei part.
Zoan DFs have their own mindset, this concept could even apply later to the other DFs.
It is a great idea.A question for you, Greg:
Do you really think that this rename and retype thing was really needed in the end?
Did Oda think that the most straightforward answer is bad or unimaginative?
The simple solution (which I wrote) consists every important aspects (the things Oda intended), but it doesn't bring any new problems in later to the story.This was my last wall of text before the new chapter.
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:shocked: Someone who elsewhere 'heard' I said something and came to me for confirmation rather than immediately hating me for life?!
There's a first for everything I guess. Major props.
I think I know what post they picked from but as usual looks like it wasn't put in context. It's whether or not Kaido can do Awakening. I'm not sure how Oda tends to handle Awakening with Kaido or if he's going to. It seems to be the antithesis of his nature to avoid Awakening but then why did he continue to do so even when Kaido and Luffy tried to connect for their 'final' blow? If Kaido was pulling his punches, the only explanation that seems to make in-universe sense is that he didn't want to fight a real unawakened challenge with awakening. That would add a layer of pride to him.
Other than that, there are some flimsy go-to tropes like, he can't control it so he'd lose the island or potentially kill Yamato (which he'd obviously rather not do if possible), or once he does it, like Chopper, he would be susceptible afterwards for a period of time.
So this whole time, my question has been, if he can use Awakening, what is the best reason for him not using it?
(For Luffy's Gear 5 we just got our answer. He had the ideas, he just didn't have this kind of level of freedom with his ability.)
By shonen law (and any story of conflict for that matter) talk of Awakening aside, it's clear that Kaido has not yet shown us his greatest, grandest, and most threatening single attack (at its most powerful) yet. That must be reserved for his final attack unless we get a Wapol wrap-up where the lack of said attack is a joke and I can't imagine why Oda would do that here in a million years. Even if things end well between them (only to turn to tragedy) Kaido must have a climatic collision with at least Luffy and Momonosuke. That's just how the story has to go. And if that attack is anything less than the best we've seen of Kaido thus far, it doesn't work. The entire arc doesn't work.
No, Kaido hasn't shown his 'maximum'. But to help make everything that came before it make sense, I'm curious as to what form the so-called 'maximum' will take if not Awakening.
I honestly think Awakening feels like the best and most satisfying explanation, but Oda will have a helluva time explaining why he hasn't employed it yet. Though using all drunk forms at once would also make for an interesting form.
However….......
If Awakening does disable him, this would help make my idea that BB swoops in and mercs him even stronger. Just like Teach to wait for such a chance.
Thanks mate for answering. I think Kaido awakening will have a major disadvantage thats why he is holding back to use it.Tbh Kaido though was beaten a bit but he didnt got seriously hit other than SKG which he took on head easily and then ATB Luffy.Seeing tone of 1042 it was sure Kaido would have won the fight.
I think the fight goes on like this.
924 low diff 1013-mid diff 1042-high diff(where he couldnt have won that easily if not for CP0 but eventually Luffy would have run out of G4 and then bang)
I think G5 Luffy will be a bit too much for him and he has to finally use awakening which he had rarely used maybe against one or two very storng opponent.
I cant think of a scenraio where Kaido will die without seeing adult Momo so I prescribe to Momotaro theory as Yamato though stalled Kaido i think she will do more.
Before chap 1030 I was leaning towards idea of Momo or Yamato death or sacrifice but seeing Oda track record post TS and particularly this arc,I feel it might not happen.
Hoping Oda delivers the finale to this arc.
Thanks again for answering Cheers -
He didn't rename it.
He didn't repurpose the type.
What it is, is in addition to the Paramecia.
So like, Nika's hair and eyebrows are from whatever race it is that he belonged to.
He ate the Gomu Gomu Fruit, a Paramecia.
His will is so strong that when he died, Gomu Gomu Fruit inherited it, hence it having a will, which is a Zoan trait.
Thanks to said trait, it allows the next user to access the form of Nika, which earned it a Zoan classification due to its ability to transform its user into another being (albeit limited, since it can only be done during awakening due to it not being a Zoan in the first place) in addition to its original Paramecia classification.
And so, the fruit was given another name "Hito Hito Fruit Mythical Model: Nika".How likely would this be?
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@All:
So like, Nika's hair and eyebrows are from whatever race it is that he belonged to.
He ate the Gomu Gomu Fruit, a Paramecia.
His will is so strong that when he died, Gomu Gomu Fruit inherited it, hence it having a will, which is a Zoan trait.
Thanks to said trait, it allows the next user to access the form of Nika, which earned it a Zoan classification due to its ability to transform its user into another being (albeit limited, since it can only be done during awakening due to it not being a Zoan in the first place) in addition to its original Paramecia classification.
And so, the fruit was given another name "Hito Hito Fruit Mythical Model: Nika".How likely would this be?
It is a nice idea, not bad.
But I have to point out the most important aspect again:
If we followed the simpler path, then all of this explanation wouldn't needed in the first place. -
It is a nice idea, not bad.
But I have to point out the most important aspect again:
If we followed the simpler path, then all of this explanation wouldn't needed in the first place.Thanks.
I agree, but unfortunately we are past that point. From here on out, there is no simpler path.
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@All:
Thanks.
I agree, but unfortunately we are past that point. From here on out, there is no simpler path.
To be honest (after reading your original post again), your idea is only way to make this move about the DF interesting and unique (without causing any real problems).
If Oda could somehow adopt it later in the story then it would be awesome.Greg, maybe you could give Oda a hint about this one.
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Oda didn't say he wanted to make Luffy's power weak, but that he gave him a power that would make him look goofy etc iirc
Yes I remember that wrong, 3 others users did warn me already. But the first part of the phrase is still valid for me even if Greg disagree
He didn't rename it.
He didn't repurpose the type.
What it is, is in addition to the Paramecia.
There is still the part of the Zoan being the only fruits with a will. If we imagine that a former user can transform the fruit power, then a paramecia would become a zoan, I guess that could make sense. But then what is a regular Zoan which is not mythological ? What were the other mythological Zoan. Lot's of questions which we won't have answers anytime soon
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I meant lion fruit-user. Chuckles at anyone who thought I forgot lion appearances.
Yea, sorry, English is not my first language, maybe I tend to interpret things too literally
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I have seen you make the comment about "True name vs Other name". But the fact remains, that Oda, through Gorosei, has mentioned that is a Zoan.
Now, whether there is a case of "reliable narrator", that is a different issue. But, it is explicitly mentioned as Zoan. Now, Oda can do a Katakuri, and make it Zoan with Paramecia properties, just like Marco is practically a logia.and others
I didn't say it's not Zoan.
Nor did I say he didn't add to the name.
But it's not a simple rename.
The GGF is still the GGF, but it also contains Zoan transformative properties.
I have good reason to understand that this fruit has multiple properties.
The clearest example of this is how the Paramecia Awakening works. Luffys transfers his ability outside his body which is the basis of Paramecia Awakening.
As to why a Zoan has Paramecia properties (or vice versa) I think we'll come to understand that when we understand more about Nika and about how DFs are created in the first place.
In my mind's eye, the simplest explanation is, Nika had GGF powers and a Zoan was made from his lineage factors.
But my ponderings aside, the GGF doesn't not exist anymore and Luffy isn't going to stop applying Gomu Gomu to attack names.
In short, don't make it a black/white issue. Because it's a Zoan doesn't mean it's also not a Paramecia. That defies our logic but then again, we know jack squat about DF production/history anyway.
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Sounds a little convoluted and not very well conveyed in-story.
Cause i would, barring this forum, read that conversation as Luffy was a mythical zoan all along.
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and not very well conveyed in-story.
It's not.
But as you astutely noted a few weeks back, people like us are not the 'norm' for readers. I do believe Oda expects the majority of readers to enjoy it and go along with it while the explanation will come later. He's already bogged down in fighting as it is. Believe it or not, Oda's not a fan of the fighting aspect. That's insane to think of considering the first half of the series but it is what it is.
What Oda's done is be Oda, ie. ambiguous. That ambiguity is:
1. Sometimes hard to swallow.
2. Too little too late sometimes.
3. Tough to get across in English.And by the time the English is out anyway, 90% of foreign readers have made up their mind based on scans ^o^
This is what you get when you tease your mad scientist for 14 years.
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The simple solution (which I wrote) consists every important aspects (the things Oda intended), but it doesn't bring any new problems in later to the story.
Because you know how the story will play out, and what Oda has planed…
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In my mind's eye, the simplest explanation is, Nika had GGF powers and a Zoan was made from his lineage factors.
Hm.
If this means that the fruit Luffy ate is a successful artificial DF, then Luffy's inability to swim is to cover that up.
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Funny enough, I don't think there's a chance it's artificial. I'm talking about the original creators having a means of creating a legit fruit like that.
….if...of course....they aren't just natural phenomena. (Personally, I don't think they are)
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It is a fully organic devil fruit, not like those gmo smiles.
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Those fruits look like OGM for me so in that sense they would be artificial
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(I say knowing full well that every fruit we consume has been artificially selected to yield better crops or bigger fruit, or better taste, a genetic manipulation by brute force)
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Because you know how the story will play out, and what Oda has planed…
Of course I don't know how Oda plans to expand this situation…
But I can only give my opinion based on the information we got.
If Oda tells us an interesting explanation later (good example: check the idea which All Fiction mentioned earlier), then the problems will be solved and I won't complain anymore.
It is simple as that. -
Funny enough, I don't think there's a chance it's artificial. I'm talking about the original creators having a means of creating a legit fruit like that.
….if...of course....they aren't just natural phenomena. (Personally, I don't think they are)
If you look at what Devil Fruits represent,a long time ago there could've been a "Jonah's Ark" kinda of happening that resulted in creating Devil Fruits that conserve every aspect (living being, element, natural phenomenon, even artificial stuff) of another world (cough Lunarians homeland cough) for surviving a devastating event. So my guess is as well that DF were man-made at some point.
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Believe it or not, Oda's not a fan of the fighting aspect. That's insane to think of considering the first half of the series but it is what it is.
Funnily enough, I think it's the inverse. The first half of the series has such a strong adventuring vibe with clear stories being told and the villains usually having very clear roles as foils to Luffy, or what an ideal, strong, free pirate is like. The things that Luffy embodies. Kuro treats his underlings as disposable, Krieg hides behind gadgetry instead of working on himself. Croc has become complacent in being the big fish in a small bowl tailored for him, while Moria has run away from the world of risk taking to try and create a crew that'll never be decimated. As quick examples. These fights served mostly as emotional caps to their stories, serving catharsis and demonstrating why Luffy deserves to reach the final island more than them, have they dropped out of the race or not.
With some wacky and often amazing rubbery action to serve us that meal.
But those fights to me atleast never seemed forced. They seemed like using action to resolve conflict and deliver payoff. But somewhere along the line the fights started feeling less and less integral to the story being told and interesting (personality or gag-wise) matchups for the crew became rarer. I personally used to think this started with Dressrosa and blamed the tons of characters that needed a spotlight in a shonen magazine, but it could honestly be a myriad of reasons. Editorial mandate, competing with other popular series (don't think it's coincidence the big three had their war arcs either going on or starting up at the same time) or getting carried away with plot threads that needed cutting down with a sword. And loads more that my messy brain doesn't remember at current time.
Oda's always excelled at adventure plotting and hard hitting melodrama filled with lovely dumbass gags. So I hope he gets to do as much of the things he enjoys as possible. I might be projecting but the story really seems to be way more alive when he's into it, and not bogged down by mandatory fighting that feels like homework. The man deserves to have the fights that are short, sweet and like a perfect dessert to cap off an emotional rollercoaster.
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But…. he did rename it? Right?
"The other name of the Gum-Gum fruit is the zoan type human-human fruit mythical type, model Nika"
How is that not renaming it and repurposing its type? Oda gave it a new name and clarified that instead of paramecia it's a zoan.
"Aha! But you see, it's actually two different fruits in one" yeah okay, maybe that's cleared out in the future but if we go by just this latest chapter he totally changed the fruit.
I don't know about you but to me "other name" means there is more than one allowed name. But English isn't my first language so maybe there's something I'm missing?
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Greg, how would you translate what Blackbeard says here about the darkness fruit?
I've seen "most dangerous", "most wicked" and "most powerful".i've btw always liked how that fight was Oda's salute or nod or homage to westerns. kinda subtle, very cool.
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Nothing about strength or danger in there.
It's the most wicked/vile.
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I hope Vegapunk arc is next. So many questions about the origin of the devil fruits. I can't wait !
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I don't know about you but to me "other name" means there is more than one allowed name. But English isn't my first language so maybe there's something I'm missing?
While the translation of present chapter says as the 'other name' , Gorosei claimed couple of chapters ago that WG went their own way to change the name of the fruit. So, Hito Hito No Mi , model Nika should be the original name and as used until 800 years ago irrespective of the type of abilities it bestowed. This is my understanding as per the naming goes.
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it–always.”
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While the translation of present chapter says as the 'other name' , Gorosei claimed couple of chapters ago that WG went their own way to change the name of the fruit. So, Hito Hito No Mi , model Nika should be the original name and as used until 800 years ago irrespective of the type of abilities it bestowed. This is my understanding as per the naming goes.
Current chapters seems to contradict most of what that chapter established.
They had colective amnesia at that moment and couldnt remember why they didnt go for it lot earlier, and now it feels like they already checked the GoroPedia.com to remind themselves something they shouldnt forgotten to begin with.
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Another name is different to rename, having an alias is different from changing your name, as simple as that.
Luffy didn’t stop being luffy for being monkey D Luffy or strawhat Luffy, Vivi did stop being miss… Wednesday? When she revealed being Vivi, the fruit was claimed to have another name both times in this chapter and on 1037, specifically.
You can insist on the “renaming” stuff all you want; the text says alternate name.
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And seems pretty clear 'gomu gomu' IS the altrernate name.
Since that's the invented one.
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And seems pretty clear 'gomu gomu' IS the altrernate name.
Since that's the invented one.
Sooooooo the real name is the nika one? real as in the actual, real name which best reflects what the fruit actually is?
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Its established The WG "changed" its name.
What I'm I supposed to make of it.. did they just hid a fake name and made the real one popular?
That wouldnt help their case as they keep looking dumber as the story keeps going on.
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If we assume that the name Gomu Gomu no mi is written in the book of DFs, it might hint that the WG also covered up the "other name" of that fruit.
EDIT: But if no one ever "awakened" this fruit in 800 yrs, the WG didn't even need to cover it up. It was just a lousy rubber fruit.
And since it is a mythical zoan type, it can be an exception to any other zoan type we witnessed so far.
BB's "Logia" is also special, since he can't turn into that element and even takes more damage than he took without it.
There are exceptions among exceptions within those DFs. -
Now that Luffy has the power of a god, but not chronos or Zeus, I need to check up on my mitólogy for where Nika would fall, it just doesn’t fit on the ruler gods
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In my mind's eye, the simplest explanation is, Nika had GGF powers and a Zoan was made from his lineage factors.
That's what I figured out too. Therefore in my eye, the most logical decision would be for Oda to state as such in the story via the Gorosei rather making it a zoan.
Anyways, he did what he did. Let's see how he explains
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BB seems pretty knowledgeable on DF. Y'all think he knows about Gomu Gomu?
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The way it’s been implied the original name was the Hito-Hito model Nika, which the World Government in turn changed to the Gomu Gomu no mi. They wouldn’t change the name of a fruit to “Hito-Hito mythical Nika” to hide its true nature, that makes no sense. They’d just leave it as is. The name was changed to the Gomu Gomu.
Not surw why they would change the name to the name of a fruit that already exists, that just opens up the possibility of people saying “hmm wait a minute, how is it we have 2 Gomu Gomu fruits?”
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It wouldn't be a surprise if he did. If his fruit is the "most vile" then it could be the best counter against it. I think there's something to Luffy freely doing his Luffy thing that goes along with destiny vs. Teach knowingly leaving everything to fate and putting himself in positions to use his knowledge towards his own ambitions. Luffy doesn't know and doesn't want to know, he just wants to act and do what is most fun and interesting. Teach knows "things" and often acts when those things manifest within the world. It will be fascinating to see how he reacts to Nika.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
The way it’s been implied the original name was the Hito-Hito model Nika, which the World Government in turn changed to the Gomu Gomu no mi. They wouldn’t change the name of a fruit to “Hito-Hito mythical Nika” to hide its true nature, that makes no sense. They’d just leave it as is. The name was changed to the Gomu Gomu.
Not surw why they would change the name to the name of a fruit that already exists, that just opens up the possibility of people saying “hmm wait a minute, how is it we have 2 Gomu Gomu fruits?”
That's how I read it too. "Then why would the world government bother to give that one specific fruit another name?! It's to erase that fruit's name from the annals of history, isn't it?!" is what one of the Elder's says and that implies that the original name was changed to keep the name Nika from the pages of history. I still think the fruit is basically the Gum Gum fruit, though, with a different sort of awakening.
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do we know that there is a "real" gomu gomu no mi? (we don't know right? that's my point)
for me it sounds like they just gave that fruit its proper description name: "the rubber fruit"
and thus they "erased" the name nika from the history/devilfruit books[another possibility: they just keep the paramecia fruit locked away for eternity]
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@vlad:
do we know that there is a "real" gomu gomu no mi? (we don't know right? that's my point)
for me it sounds like they just gave that fruit its proper description name: "the rubber fruit"
and thus they "erased" the name nika from the history/devilfruit books[another possibility: they just keep the paramecia fruit locked away for eternity]
The Gorosei said that the gomu gomu no mi had another name, they didn't talk about a real name. At this point to there's absolutely no reason to believe that Luffy doesn't have the gomu gomu no mi, the Gorosei just revealed that there was a hidden side to it.
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No. They straight up said the name was changed and that zoan fruits have minds of their own. So what if they said "other name" instead of "real name"? It's just semantics.
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Names are semantics, after all who named this fruit in the first place? Did someone go 'Here's a new devil fruit, the Hito Hito no Mi Model Nika' and then suddenly the Gorosei walked up to them and went 'I believe you mean, the Gomu Gomu no Mi'? We don't know who decides the names of devil fruits, whether its whoever found it first or its Vegapunk when he put them in the encyclopedia or if its something else.
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If Oda wanted to make it crystal clear that the fruit's 'real name' is Zoan, then this would have been his chance to do it. Not once did the Stars call this its 'real name'.
I'm not saying it cannot be, but Oda specifically chose syntax that leaves it open to discussion. Some call it semantics and that's absolutely correct. When you consider the semantics in play, you're closer to understanding what/why certain choices with respect to the story may have been made.
There is a simple irrefutable fact that in addition to transforming, Luffy has manipulated the environment around him which is a distinctly Paramecia trait. If one assumes that Nika was an actual God, it stands to reason that this comes inherently with the Zoan power. However, given Oda's avoidance of using 'true name', the blatant Paramecia powers, and the tendency of people to deify that which they don't understand, I believe there's more to Nika and their abilities than omnipotence. All of that to say, one way or another, I don't think the fruit is 'normal' among DFs. Either that, or we'll find that what we know about Paramecia in general is grossly uninformed.
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This feels like the kind of thing the Japanese language thrives on.
Vague, non-commital phrasings that let you say something without saying something.
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