Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

andre

@Scabbard:

One of the FT shadows had its eyes (?) near the sea surface, that would be weird for an elephant.

As if it has a large head with his eyes located relatively low, like an octupus.

I don't think chapter 490 necessitates this is the case. I could be wrong, but I don't see eyes on the initial panel showing the three figures (or three bodyparts of one figure). the eyes come on the next panel's closeup, which could be at the top of the figures or anywhere else.

!

Even the anime shows the eyes at the top of one of the initial figures and not at the water's surface. It could be that the eyes are at the top, it could be that they're at the bottom of them, or it could be a misdirect and the part of the figure we see in the closeups (the head) is not what we see in the later part.

Our first glimpse of Zunesha looked pretty similar to one of those figures,

!

but seems to me to have been its leg.

!

Which says to me that Oda has done the… legwork, to be pretty fuzzy about it all. The hardest evidence that the figures in the FT were individual creatures is the gwoooom sound effect seeming to come directly from the top of one of the figures.

@Johnny:

I would imagine they just go through the Calm Belt, no?

We don't have any information to suggest they do or don't have a relationship with the Sea Kings to allow this. My guess is that they do have a relationship given their similar way of "talking", but that the Sea Kings wouldn't let Zunesha in and out of the calm belt, given their presumed relationship to Joy Boy and that Zunesha's promise to me seems like it's because of a betrayal of Joy Boy. Maybe Zunesha is free to walk wherever he wants, but it makes more sense to me that he has to stay in the New World, away from his herd in Paradise. Of course it could be that he can walk everywhere but paradise, but a stricter limit to The New World would be more constrictive and helps build the mystery of the New World in general.

Oh, and my justification for why it's a herd is simple. He brings fog with him when he walks, but we have no reason to suspect that it lingers. If it is lingering and a giant elephant that brings fog happens to be present, it seems inevitable that it's actually a multitude of them creating more and more fog in a single area. If it's just Zunesha, or even a mate, then the fog is incidental, which makes little sense to me.

On an aside, Zunesha's way of speaking and the Sea Kings are exactly the same as Luffy and Momo's on Wano. I'd bet that Shirahoshi will be able to speak in the same way.

Greg

One of the FT shadows had its eyes (?) near the sea surface, that would be weird for an elephant.

Myself and Robby have addressed this in the past.

In fact, iirc I think Robby even made visuals for it.

The explanation is, it's a clever use of perspective. Yes, we see a sliver of ocean, but that sliver could be miles and miles away from the previous establishing shot.

Essentially, the further you are, that sliver of ocean, if viewed from a low close-up perspective, would realistically make an extraordinarily tall object look 'close' to the surface. It's exactly the kind of stunt Oda would pull to make something look one way, but actually be another, safely guarding the truth in plain sight all these years.

As for Shirahoshi, I don't think so. If anything, I think this means Momo is Uranus, or the Momo/Zou combo is Uranus. Depends how he wants to frame it. Of course, if Zunisha is considered a sea king of sorts, well, that changes that entirely!

Therefore our ancient weapons would be two people and an actual ship.

Ivotas

@Johnny:

I would imagine they just go through the Calm Belt, no?

Going through the Calm Belt doesn't across the Red Line, which what people are wondering about?

As far as why they eyes are so low. Maybe the creature just hunched down? We specifically just see eyes on the one isolated shadow, not on any of those three shadows next to each other.

wolfwood

Have we ruled out big elephant shaped hole in the wall yet?

Johnny B. Decent

@Ivotas:

Going through the Calm Belt doesn't across the Red Line, which what people are wondering about?

Well, I mean, wouldn't it be easier to just go through the Calm Belt instead of climbing the Red Line? I would imagine since they are so massive, even Sea Kings would think twice about attacking them.

Razh

Would you cross a shallow river knowing there's a bunch of bloodthirsty piranhas in it?

It may just be how it would look like.

Kirbycide

@Johnny:

Well, I mean, wouldn't it be easier to just go through the Calm Belt instead of climbing the Red Line? I would imagine since they are so massive, even Sea Kings would think twice about attacking them.

The Red Line completely bisects the world, you cannot move between the New World and Paradise without crossing the Red Line, whether you cross the Calm Belt(s) or not.

andre

This post is deleted!

Ivotas

@Johnny:

Well, I mean, wouldn't it be easier to just go through the Calm Belt instead of climbing the Red Line? I would imagine since they are so massive, even Sea Kings would think twice about attacking them.

What I was trying to tell you is that crossing the Calm Belt and crossing the Red Line does not take you to the same place. If you cross the Calm Belt from the Paradise section of the Grand Line, you end up euther in East Blue or South Blue. If you cross the Red Line you end up in the New World section of the Grand Line, from wich crossing the Calm Belt would take you to either North Blue or West Blue.

Zunisha is in the New World, the Florian Triangle is in Paradise. Crossing the Calm Belt doesn't enable you to get from one place to the other.

Greg

Ivotas, just curious, have you seen Zou's first appearance lined up with the shadows? It's almost exactly the same even accounting the effect of the fog on the legs according to depth.

Ivotas

Yep, I'm familiar with it.^^

andre

This post is deleted!

FelRes

@Greg:

Myself and Robby have addressed this in the past.

In fact, iirc I think Robby even made visuals for it.

The explanation is, it's a clever use of perspective. Yes, we see a sliver of ocean, but that sliver could be miles and miles away from the previous establishing shot.

Essentially, the further you are, that sliver of ocean, if viewed from a low close-up perspective, would realistically make an extraordinarily tall object look 'close' to the surface. It's exactly the kind of stunt Oda would pull to make something look one way, but actually be another, safely guarding the truth in plain sight all these years.

That still makes very little sense and is horrible abuse of perspective. It's an ocean, it's generally flat and waves aren't gonna go so high as to obscure the view that much, and I'm saying that as someone who's frequently out in open water. It'd have to be so ridiculously far it'd be well beyond the curve of the horizon with a random faraway POV that's not TB, and I don't get the impression the florian triangle is that widespread. Alternatively a high tidal wave just happens to be in between, or the elephant is taking a little dunk at the moment. I don't like any of those lol.

Robby

@FelRes:

That still makes very little sense and is horrible abuse of perspective.

One angle it the camera from a helicopter shot on the bottom looking up, one angle is the camera straight on or slightly underneath the water. The two panels aren't in the same perspective. And if that is in fact and elephant's back in the first panel, then the second panel has zoomed 180 degrees around and is showing it from a different shot entirely in order to display the eyes on the front..

It'd have to be so ridiculously far it'd be well beyond the curve of the horizon with a random faraway POV that's not TB, and I don't get the impression the florian triangle is that widespread. Alternatively a high tidal wave just happens to be in between, or the elephant is taking a little dunk at the moment. I don't like any of those lol.

The elephant is larger than an island. It can be really distant and still be huge. And be seen from below.

Oda is tilting the camera in ways you wouldn't see while ON a boat, you'd have to go underneath to get that angle, or see it from the air, but its completely fair perspective. Even something completely flat like my shelf will obscure things if you move the camera down. Once you add in waves that are varied and not flat it lets you get all sorts of optical illusions.

The caveat to all this is of course the anime added red glowing eyes to the top of the "legs" so who knows. But the overall position and the same mist effect sells me on it.

Kirbycide

The world is round, so of course things can get obscured beyond the horizon. Robby and Greg are right.

Greg

Fel, you came on a little strong there. It's cool, we're cool, this isn't Twitter, we're all friends here.
No one would dare shed suspicion on your experience at sea, but I don't think it's that common to view a 21 mile-high object in the middle of the ocean. Mount Everest itself is only just under five and a half miles high.

Other than Robby's example (itself scaled down due to room size) I cannot provide any better example than this:

I'm not saying this is what is on display without question and anyone who says different is a heretic. Just, I strongly believe Oda was trying to pull one over on fans and that's how he did it.

Robby

Or, to use actual islands with some distance instead of my shelf from a foot away…

Camera angle matters. Especially when you have something the size of a mountain in the distance. Your perspective from a boat where you're always at the same height isn't going to be the same as a camera going a mile up or below, because your general horizon line isn't going to change much compared to the vastness of the ocean.

Shiebs

Do you guys think one of Zoro's swords might get a devil fruit at some point? Or is that a silly idea

Johnny B. Decent

@Shiebs:

Do you guys think one of Zoro's swords might get a devil fruit at some point? Or is that a silly idea

Well…..there was that one SBS about a What If? with one of Zoro's swords eating Kaido's DF...

Shiebs

@Johnny:

Well…..there was that one SBS about a What If? with one of Zoro's swords eating Kaido's DF...

LOL that's what made me think of it

T.D.A

@Shiebs:

Do you guys think one of Zoro's swords might get a devil fruit at some point? Or is that a silly idea

Most likely it isn't something that would happen. Zoro's able to generate dragon and other type auras with his existing swords lol plus they have their own soul, so Oda can probably do most things within those parameters
He would also become way overpowered if he had on top devil fruit powers to call upon.

Greg

Shiebs, regarding the height thing.
The purpose of that at the time was to show us a bit of growth for the crew in addition to having some fun with Luffy's powers.

The line (which as I recall is from a shipwright) is a throwaway regarding rumors he heard about Luffy. This is to show us that 'rumors' actually travel about the crew at this point. They're not well known yet (as advertised by the technically incorrect info) but they are starting to make a name for themselves. This is a huge contrast from the start of the series where Luffy would state his name and nobody would know/care.

Secondly, this info is technically correct. The funny thing about the rumor is, it isn't meant to be blatantly wrong, as if lies were traveling around about the crew. Luffy has been meters tall thanks to his fruit. The secondhand (more like 3rd or 4th) info they're getting is likely sourced back to someone who saw Luffy being huge due to his abilities and didn't know better. In addition to this, I'd bet Oda even accounted for the 'Telephone Game' nature of rumors and added a bit for flavor.

So, could Luffy become that tall? Sure! But more importantly, be it just his hands or his feet, or arm or whatever, Luffy has already well exceeded even such a length, so it was already true

Scabbard Avenger

Oda's favorite 3 moments teased it.

So resin is immune to whatever Imu is capable of? The natural enemy. Imu doing Enel face?

ArseneWenger

Greg, do you think Luffy actually died in this chapter? Given Momo and Law's comments?

G1Ravage

Well, the chapter's out. Now to eagerly await Greg's thoughts on just what the hell is happening.

I'm personally seeing some visual connections here between Luffy and Zunesha. Especially in the eyes.

wolfwood

Maybe the plot elephant is dead and re-animated too?

T.D.A

Hi Greg, just wanted to check Oda hasn’t completely forgotten about Denjiro right?!

Greg

I see what you're going for Scabbard. Personally? I think that's drawing too many conclusions at this stage.

Even assuming the GGF isn't what it says it is, I don't think Oda was teasing anything there. He just genuinely liked that slice of life.

But I suppose the main reason I'm suspicious is because I didn't put so much stock in Kaido's line. That line could be interpreted as someone confounded by Luffy's abilities as a supposedly rubber Paramecia (another slie of life) or he could have been that and foreshadowing. Depending how one takes it plays into whether one thinks the DF is something physically different than rubber or the fruit is capable of doing more than it seems because of rubbery properties.

With the info we have, I believe that the fruit is indeed the GGF as usual, but what it makes possible is the reason for its other name, not that it is a physically different power.

Luffy's greatest ability has always been to create allies, and I have little doubt his personality and fruit are what make that possible.

Did he die? I think he manga died. Which is to say, sure, maybe he was clinically dead for a moment, but people have come back from that even in real life. Just as he 'manga died' did he 'manga revive' (ie. His will is so strong he wouldn't die) Sure. That could easily be the case. I do wonder though, if the fruit could Enel him back to life. Cuz Enel technically died too but his fruit brought him back. This suggests a level of sentience in the fruits and I dunno if Oda intends to go that route, but it would follow the reasoning for why multiple fruits don't usually fly.

All Fiction

So, Greg, after this chapter, do you have any more idea on what the fruit's actual name is, in addition to Nika Nika, Jiyuu Jiyuu, and Joy Joy?

Greg

Nothing in this chap gave me any particular new ideas or gave me any reason to discard my previous suggestions.

For me, the most interesting part is that Kaido seemed unaffected after hitting CP-0. He's compounding that emotion so when it releases it won't be pretty, and I don't necessarily mean only violent.

Everything else is pretty much as expected. We knew the arc wasn't at its crescendo yet so this seems like the perfect opportunity for Team Momotarou to unite.

All Fiction

Appreciate the reply, Greg.

Blissed

@Greg:

Nothing in this chap gave me any particular new ideas or gave me any reason to discard my previous suggestions.

For me, the most interesting part is that Kaido seemed unaffected after hitting CP-0. He's compounding that emotion so when it releases it won't be pretty, and I don't necessarily mean only violent.

Everything else is pretty much as expected. We knew the arc wasn't at its crescendo yet so this seems like the perfect opportunity for Team Momotarou to unite.

I noticed it's at least seeping out a little bit in how he's talking to the alliance, but yea, he's definitely holding back on his rage.

Greg

It's nostalgic seeing all the resin theories going around. Reminds me of when Gear 2nd hit and everyone said at once, "He vulcanized himself!"

Shiebs

@Greg:

Shiebs, regarding the height thing.
The purpose of that at the time was to show us a bit of growth for the crew in addition to having some fun with Luffy's powers.

The line (which as I recall is from a shipwright) is a throwaway regarding rumors he heard about Luffy. This is to show us that 'rumors' actually travel about the crew at this point. They're not well known yet (as advertised by the technically incorrect info) but they are starting to make a name for themselves. This is a huge contrast from the start of the series where Luffy would state his name and nobody would know/care.

Secondly, this info is technically correct. The funny thing about the rumor is, it isn't meant to be blatantly wrong, as if lies were traveling around about the crew. Luffy has been meters tall thanks to his fruit. The secondhand (more like 3rd or 4th) info they're getting is likely sourced back to someone who saw Luffy being huge due to his abilities and didn't know better. In addition to this, I'd bet Oda even accounted for the 'Telephone Game' nature of rumors and added a bit for flavor.

So, could Luffy become that tall? Sure! But more importantly, be it just his hands or his feet, or arm or whatever, Luffy has already well exceeded even such a length, so it was already true

Thanks for the response Greg!

Damn I thought I had caught some subtle foreshadowing clue there that went under everyone's radar

SirCaesar

@Greg:

It's nostalgic seeing all the resin theories going around. Reminds me of when Gear 2nd hit and everyone said at once, "He vulcanized himself!"

Ditto. Or when Luffy used black hardening in Sabaody after the timeskip and this time everyone was sure that it must be vulcanized rubber!

Ivotas

@Greg:

It's nostalgic seeing all the resin theories going around. Reminds me of when Gear 2nd hit and everyone said at once, "He vulcanized himself!"

Hey! Don't lump me in with those plebs. I theorized Luffy has eaten a Jet Dial and I still think that this is what actually happened but Oda changed it only to spite me.

Robby

@SirCaesar:

Ditto. Or when Luffy used black hardening in Sabaody after the timeskip and this time everyone was sure that it must be vulcanized rubber!

It's not the reader's fault Oda retconned a major feature of the world during the timeskip. Haki effects had been invisible up to that point and that was the first time it got a visual so its really, REALLY easy to see why people would need an explanation for this brand new never before seen ability…

that apparently dozens of characters had been doing before then. But for some reason some of the Warlords and the "super elite mega assassin" Lucchi couldn't do.

I'm still not happy that the CP9 forms were just retconned into haki. Couldn't they have at least stayed a branch path or something?

FelRes

It used to be the hottest cool kids only thing to do. I hate how immediately after Enies Lobby finished, we're seeing marines do super cool rokushiki moves. Makes it less special to cipher pol and any SHs who learn any of it. Yeah CP is still more specialized in it, but meh.

Greg

@Robby:

It's not the reader's fault Oda retconned a major feature of the world during the timeskip. Haki effects had been invisible up to that point and that was the first time it got a visual so its really, REALLY easy to see why people would need an explanation for this brand new never before seen ability…

that apparently dozens of characters had been doing before then. But for some reason some of the Warlords and the "super elite mega assassin" Lucchi couldn't do.

I'm still not happy that the CP9 forms were just retconned into haki. Couldn't they have at least stayed a branch path or something?

Sure, I think it's important not to look down on there being ideas. Those are always welcome. But the double-down dog-piling on theories that have been stolen and repackaged again and again as 'unique' brings back memories.

The number of people who've privately approached me with, "Do you think it's resin?!" in the past week has been staggering.

Robby

Well that's just what you get for being popular.

ea77

@SirCaesar:

Ditto. Or when Luffy used black hardening in Sabaody after the timeskip and this time everyone was sure that it must be vulcanized rubber!

"Hardening" likterally means vulcanization. You'll also notice 0-non Luffy people use it as "koka".

I theorise it started out like that, and then One Piece Film Z happened. Somewhere in the planning the idea to broaden it to everyone came up. That's when we start seeing haki turn balck with Vergo, etc.

RoboBlue

@Greg:

Nothing in this chap gave me any particular new ideas or gave me any reason to discard my previous suggestions.

For me, the most interesting part is that Kaido seemed unaffected after hitting CP-0. He's compounding that emotion so when it releases it won't be pretty, and I don't necessarily mean only violent.

Everything else is pretty much as expected. We knew the arc wasn't at its crescendo yet so this seems like the perfect opportunity for Team Momotarou to unite.

Alcoholism can really mess up how you process anger.

When we finally see the source of Kaido's drinking problems things should get very interesting.

Deicide

To be frank, I imagined a Kaido flashback would start once he hit Luffy. That face he did…

Just like, before, I expected a Kaido flashback when Yamato confronted him.

I'm not that sure anymore if we will get more than a few panels, or pages at most, about his past at this point.

BUT, considering that this fight is likely to finish within ~12 chapters (end of Volume 104), maybe there's time for one or two of those exclusively for Kaido...

Hudell

Greg, do you think there's any connection between Luffy becoming JoyBoy after dying in an epic fight and Kaido chasing an epic death for himself?

uniaka ikuzakas

But If it's some legendary fruit that makes gorosei pee their pants, WG even had to change the name, then how would things Like resin even fit.

Alfiere

There's something that's been bugging me for a while, and it's more a "Japan" question rather than a One Piece one, but since it is particularly relevant after the last chapter i'll ask now:

What's the deal with long-running shonen series often gravitating some way or another towards the reveal of the MC as a sort of Messianic figure, as in their coming prophetized, their destiny to save humanity by great evils or calamities, and them being secretely lineage of kings/heroes/gods? It strikes me as odd expecially in series that are heavily "east and Japan" themed, esthetically, like Naruto and even One Piece, as it's an unmistakably christian narrative, and one that is at odds witht the very roughly summarized buddhist principle of "each one for his own", with buddhas being more paragons of virtue than redeemers or saviours of humanity.

The question is: is it an aspect that particularly stuck with the japanese collective subconcious throughout their … troubled history with christianity, or it's just an handy trope to keep the hype alive around the MC when the story has come a long way and the cast has grown exponentially?
And that begs another question: does it work? Is the general japanese pubblic enticed by this kind of development?

Hope i'm not venturing into some sensitive ground, i'm just genuinely curious if there could be some cultural background about this.

ea77

@uniaka:

But If it's some legendary fruit that makes gorosei pee their pants, WG even had to change the name, then how would things Like resin even fit.

This part is a head scratcher. It's not rubber, it's a symonym for rubber…is not the best argument when that can be covered for with an extension of its orignal powers unless the fruit's power itself is not a concern but something else.

Unless, as I noted before, it's not so much Devil Fruit powers awakening than it is the Devil Fruit itself awakening. How could this apply to Luffy...well Luffy is a fruit. That's it. = That's the theory. Luffy's mom doesn't exist because Dragon ate the Fruit Fruit fruit and reproduced asexually. Luffy is dead. So his devil inhabited his body. This is the only logical explanation since awakening is "affecting things other than the user". The only one.

King Cannon

@Alfiere:

There's something that's been bugging me for a while, and it's more a "Japan" question rather than a One Piece one, but since it is particularly relevant after the last chapter i'll ask now:

What's the deal with long-running shonen series often gravitating some way or another towards the reveal of the MC as a sort of Messianic figure, as in their coming prophetized, their destiny to save humanity by great evils or calamities, and them being secretely lineage of kings/heroes/gods? It strikes me as odd expecially in series that are heavily "east and Japan" themed, esthetically, like Naruto and even One Piece, as it's an unmistakably christian narrative, and one that is at odds witht the very roughly summarized buddhist principle of "each one for his own", with buddhas being more paragons of virtue than redeemers or saviours of humanity.

The question is: is it an aspect that particularly stuck with the japanese collective subconcious throughout their … troubled history with christianity, or it's just an handy trope to keep the hype alive around the MC when the story has come a long way and the cast has grown exponentially?
And that begs another question: does it work? Is the general japanese pubblic enticed by this kind of development?

Hope i'm not venturing into some sensitive ground, i'm just genuinely curious if there could be some cultural background about this.

I think that's just an universal trope in fantasy. Even stuff like Star Wars can't escape it.

puffing.cinema

And culturally there's a lot of connection between aristocracy and deity figures in both east's history and mythos.

theackwardstation

@King:

I think that's just an universal trope in fantasy. Even stuff like Star Wars can't escape it.

It's the oldest trope in all literature.