Throughout this month, we will be testing new features (like search) so you may experience some hiccups from time to time. We'll try to not be too disruptive...
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
-
-
@Zik:
Is that a thing?
How is that s thing?
Are all DF users or at least zoan users in danger of being taken over by their devil fruit this entire time and we didn't know?
It was just a theory I had, nothing really to back it up
I just thought, Awakening might come about through fighting the devil in the devil fruit and if you win you awaken it
I guess the theory might have come after reading bleach and Naruto, where they fight there inner hollow/kurama
-
It was just a theory I had, nothing really to back it up
I just thought, Awakening might come about through fighting the devil in the devil fruit and if you win you awaken it
I guess the theory might have come after reading bleach and Naruto, where they fight there inner hollow/kurama
Oh okay, I see.
Would add a whole new dimension to the story.
-
@Zik:
Is that a thing?
How is that a thing?
Are all DF users or at least zoan users in danger of being taken over by their devil fruit this entire time and we didn't know?
It would be the logical next step. Back in Enies Lobby Chopper said that the carnivorous Zoan fruits affect the users personality already, they're more ferocious. I mean Lucci was always a psycho, but him licking the blood from his hands after the exposition wasn't a coincidence.
But that was also over 600 chapters ago, so we can expect anything from Oda at this point. Maybe it's a natural progression, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Impel Down Guards are artificially awakened.
I don't think we can get around Kaido's awakening though. The readers would ask why he didn't awaken until the end of the series if Oda doesn't address it at all. Not after Doflamingo introduced us to the concept, followed by Katakuri, who considered it normal for a man in his position.
-
I hope Marco's awakening isn't just about –healing people's wounds. Hope there is more to it.
And I wanna see King eventually being awakened too.
-
I've never really understood the Zoan awakening hype. I thought they established that Zoan awakenings cause the user to become mindless beasts like the ID Minotaurs. They are basically letting their animal side take over in exchange for stength.
-
I've never really understood the Zoan awakening hype. I thought they established that Zoan awakenings cause the user to become mindless beasts like the ID Minotaurs. They are basically letting their animal side take over in exchange for stength.
well, I agree with the other posters who said that the ImpelDown zoan awakening was done by some trick. Because, I mean, why would they keep them in ID for torture purposes and not go fight pirates ? Never made sense to me.
And what strength would they be getting in exchange of loosing their minds exactly ? I mean, how is it worth it to even awaken then ? And It would make it highly un-even for zoans that their awakening just doesn't work while paramecia users can awaken
Every nation gets the government it deserves.–-- Joseph de Maistre
-
I've never really understood the Zoan awakening hype. I thought they established that Zoan awakenings cause the user to become mindless beasts like the ID Minotaurs. They are basically letting their animal side take over in exchange for stength.
I guess it would be a convenient excuse why those who can awaken decide not to - unless they really have their backs against the wall. Which is basically right now when it concerns the Beast Pirates.
well, I agree with the other posters who said that the ImpelDown zoan awakening was done by some trick. Because, I mean, why would they keep them in ID for torture purposes and not go fight pirates ? Never made sense to me.
And what strength would they be getting in exchange of loosing their minds exactly ? I mean, how is it worth it to even awaken then ? And It would make it highly un-even for zoans that their awakening just doesn't work while paramecia users can awaken
I don't know how much stronger they get because we have no idea how powerful those Guards were without the awakening. But 3 Warlord level fighters decided to move on quickly because they would just get back up soon.
Sure, those awakened Zoan were no threat to Luffy/Jinbe/Croc, but there we're also talking about Koala and Zebra Zoans - not Ancient or even Mythical types.As for why they're only used in Impel Down? Well, I don't think they can follow complex orders, they needed an animal tamer dedicated to them (Sadie).
It's a similiar deal with Magellan, the poison man whose mere presence poses a threat to everyone and anything in the vicinity. A high security prison is the perfect place for him, as any unintended damage hits only prisoners anyway. Same thing with the Jailor beasts - they can do their job with minimal downtime thanks to their super recovery, and if they lash at the prisoners because their instincts run wild it's not a big deal as well.
-
I still think the Impel Down Guards are people who had zoan devil fruits, challenged the devil inside them in order to awaken there power, and lost and became mindless beasts
I know I'm probably wrong but I'm sticking to my guns
-
I've never really understood the Zoan awakening hype. I thought they established that Zoan awakenings cause the user to become mindless beasts like the ID Minotaurs. They are basically letting their animal side take over in exchange for stength.
Next to nothing has been established about anything on this topic. We've got no concrete idea how any awakenings work, for any kind of fruit. I remember a long period where the main theory behind Impel Down's "Awakened Zoans" was that they'd fed an animal a fruit of its own type, achieving the "enlightenment" alluded to in the SBS question about a human eating the Human Human Fruit.
Everyone assumes all Paramecia awakenings would work the same way as Doflamingo's, using the power to transform the environment. But how would that work for, say, Sugar and her touch activated power, or Foxy's projectile he can't actively manipulate once it leaves his body.
And there hasn't been any in-universe talk about how Logia awakenings work at all. There's a theory that it could be permanent environmental changes like what happened at Punk Hazard. I think that would make sense, but we just don't know for sure.
Awakening on the whole is one big unknown at the minute and anyone who's set on something specific they're hoping to see from it is risking disappointment.
-
It would be the logical next step. Back in Enies Lobby Chopper said that the carnivorous Zoan fruits affect the users personality already, they're more ferocious. I mean Lucci was always a psycho, but him licking the blood from his hands after the exposition wasn't a coincidence.
But that was also over 600 chapters ago, so we can expect anything from Oda at this point. Maybe it's a natural progression, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Impel Down Guards are artificially awakened.
As the next step the concept almost seems like an entirely new manga or at least a potentially vast new element (a bit too late imo) in to the story.
As already said it does have that feeling of Ichigo in Bleach with his or even more so his hollow or Naruto and Kurama sealed inside him but the first thing that popped in to my head was Black Clover with Asta having a demon/devil inside him along with a few other characters. Those demons actively trying to influence or take over the human body they're in and openly converse with them.
That's a wild thing to introduce in to One Piece imo even if it's just zoan users.
As far as what Chopper said I think that's a thing based on the animal, mainly carnivorous ones as mentioned.
It could be artificial with the ID guards or it could be forced hinting as to why they just seem like mindless animals at times.
There's a lot more Oda has to reveal there as far as the process.
I mean wasn't Chopper's monster point revealed elsewhere as his awakened form and before the 2 years of training he was just a mindless beast. Now he can talk and control it somewhat.
-
Do you think Oda will ever do another series after One Piece? For some reason I’d really like to see his take on the Wild West
Nothing long term, no. He'll probably go the Toriyama route and do 10 chapter minis from time to time, video game designs, work on movies maybe, or just enjoy his well earned retirement.
He said years ago that he realized OP was going to be his life's work so he's just throwing everything he wants to do into it. Otherwise we might have seen the samurai stuff all split off and saved for a different series someday.
Though even if Oda's intent is to do soething short form I dunno if he'll be able to help himself and stick to single volumes.
-
Nothing long term, no. He'll probably go the Toriyama route and do 10 chapter minis from time to time, video game designs, work on movies maybe, or just enjoy his well earned retirement.
He said years ago that he realized OP was going to be his life's work so he's just throwing everything he wants to do into it. Otherwise we might have seen the samurai stuff all split off and saved for a different series someday.
Though even if Oda's intent is to do soething short form I dunno if he'll be able to help himself and stick to single volumes.
I think Oda is totally one of those guys who thinks he's never gonna do another big series….. But then retirement drives him crazy and he just has to go back to it, maybe not a huge series but a couple volumes for sure
Kind of like how I doubt Quentin Tarantino has only one more movie left in him.... I'm sure he thinks that, but I don't think he can keep himself from making more
it's just in there DNA
-
I definitely think Oda will be back to serialized manga after One Piece. Maybe a good 10 year break. He'll return with a semi long run (Maybe 500 chapters). Hopefully its set in the OP universe.
Maybe something space based that again adds a bunch of genres.
-
@Zik:
I definitely think Oda will be back to serialized manga after One Piece. Maybe a good 10 year break. He'll return with a semi long run (Maybe 500 chapters). Hopefully its set in the OP universe.
Maybe something space based that again adds a bunch of genres.
Oda's not going to do a 10 year project after OP is done. I have doubts about him managing anything in a single volume, but planning anything big ever again seems unlikely.
And I would prefer he do anythign BUT the OP universe. Let him do something totally new. OP spinoffs and movies will keep giving us new content forever, I'd rather see what else Oda can do when working from a clean slate.
-
What fans prefer don't mean much if Oda wants to write about Criminal and Doskoi Panda's rise through the fashion world.
-
What fans prefer don't mean much if Oda wants to write about Criminal and Doskoi Panda's rise through the fashion world.
That is so far removed from the rest of the story it would for all intents and purposes be a new thing, just with old props.
Like Toriyama did the Jaco story, and we didn't even really know it was related to Dragonball until the last chapter. That level of connected is fine. (And then Super made him a regular character which was meh.)
-
going to use awakening?", where everything before that matters less, in turn. Like, despite the Onigashima raid being about as long as the whole of Enies Lobby (without a flashback even), despite everything Ulti has been through, theres still an expectation that the "real" fights are yet to come, because no one has shown their Bankai yet.
-
Yeah! Though any reasonable reader should expect that Oda would show awakening for only some special characters. At least untill the final fight. I fully expect every BB captains will show full power of their DFs.
-
The problem with these battles is that their execution is super messy especially regarding their conclusiveness. They neither feel properly concluded nor really inconcluded. Like the recent debate between Robby and Deicide, both of you have some super valid points, but it's just that the execution of the battles is flat out too flawed to properly judge whether these battles are really concluded or not.
They are just terribly crafted on so many layers. Aside from the execution of the battles themselves, they also lack the proper setup. For example Robin, why didn't Oda just do a little bit more to properly set up the upcoming Robin vs. Black Maria encounter? For example, instead of doing all the infiltration stuff completely offscreen, we could see how Robin during her information gathering learns that a lot of the stuff she researched turns out to be flat out wrong. So she concludes that there seems to be some person who is also super interested and knowledgable in history, but uses these abilities to bastardize history. She realizes there is an exceptionally formidable foe behind the scenes so that she really has to step up her game in order to provide some actually valuable and useful information for the upcoming raid.
What did we get instead? BM showed interest in the Poneglyphs, but it never felt organic. It never came from the characters, instead it just got dictated by the plot - as the plot needed Robin to come and Sanji to go. Therefore BM did her job and degenerated to a mere servant of plot. I wouldn't be surprised if the Poneglyph subplot completely gets ignored during their battle, but even if not, Oda completely missed to give it a proper set-up in order for the battle to have a real meaning and an actual cathartic feeling when it's over. No proper plant results in less great payoff. That's basic writing.
Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.
-
@Zik:
As the next step the concept almost seems like an entirely new manga or at least a potentially vast new element (a bit too late imo) in to the story.
As already said it does have that feeling of Ichigo in Bleach with his or even more so his hollow or Naruto and Kurama sealed inside him but the first thing that popped in to my head was Black Clover with Asta having a demon/devil inside him along with a few other characters. Those demons actively trying to influence or take over the human body they're in and openly converse with them.
That's a wild thing to introduce in to One Piece imo even if it's just zoan users.
Oh no, that's not what I meant.
I'm not talking about the Devil fruit replacing the personality, I imagine it more like the user letting the animal instincts take over willingly.
See, most here consider their state of mind a negative side effect, but that's not necessarily the case in a battle situation. Remember Gomu Gomu no Baka?
!
Letting his instincts take over allowed him to dodge every move Enel made. In the end it didn't work because he couldn't switch into offense in this mindless state, but snotnose mode had clear benefits beyond comic relief.
Now, what I'm saying is that the Awakened Zoan mode might offer a state of mind purely focused on instinct and battle. Gomo Gomu no Baka, just with the animal instincts allowing for offense based on the will to kill.
Like, awakened Zoans would surely not lose their haki because someone saw their eel fish mouth.@Daz:
going to use awakening?", where everything before that matters less, in turn. Like, despite the Onigashima raid being about as long as the whole of Enies Lobby (without a flashback even), despite everything Ulti has been through, theres still an expectation that the "real" fights are yet to come, because no one has shown their Bankai yet.Do you know what I asked myself every arc before Oda introduced us to awakening?
"What's going to be the Shadow's Asgard of the current villain?"The Ground Seko, the 200 million Volt Amaru, the Rokougan, the Ursus Shock?
The only thing that changed is that I'm not waiting for those ultimate attacks anymore, I'm waiting for the Awakening. That's the only difference, the villain's desperation move just got a fancy name. Hell, I'm even expecting Oda to retrofit the concept of awakening to some of the examples above.
Insinuating some sort of Bleachification based on this is… harsh.
That said, I'm not expecting Awakenings for every Beast Pirate. I think it would make sense and it wouldn't surprise me, but the Flying Six are not strictly on my desperation-move radar, only Kaido is:
-
We got his basic moveset down, clubbing and some plain elemental attacks
-
We went through his two basic Zoan transformations in the process
-
We witnessed his large scale "everything is on a clock now" - move, his Plazabomb/Raigo/Sunrise/Birdcage.
The only thing left is his last resort desperation move. His Shadow's Asgard, his awakening.
-
-
The problem with these battles is that their execution is super messy especially regarding their conclusiveness. They neither feel properly concluded nor really inconcluded. Like the recent debate between Robby and Deicide, both of you have some super valid points, but it's just that the execution of the battles is flat out too flawed to properly judge whether these battles are really concluded or not.
They are just terribly crafted on so many layers. Aside from the execution of the battles themselves, they also lack the proper setup. For example Robin, why didn't Oda just do a little bit more to properly set up the upcoming Robin vs. Black Maria encounter? For example, instead of doing all the infiltration stuff completely offscreen, we could see how Robin during her information gathering learns that a lot of the stuff she researched turns out to be flat out wrong. So she concludes that there seems to be some person who is also super interested and knowledgable in history, but uses these abilities to bastardize history. She realizes there is an exceptionally formidable foe behind the scenes so that she really has to step up her game in order to provide some actually valuable and useful information for the upcoming raid.
What did we get instead? BM showed interest in the Poneglyphs, but it never felt organic. It never came from the characters, instead it just got dictated by the plot - as the plot needed Robin to come and Sanji to go. Therefore BM did her job and degenerated to a mere servant of plot. I wouldn't be surprised if the Poneglyph subplot completely gets ignored during their battle, but even if not, Oda completely missed to give it a proper set-up in order for the battle to have a real meaning and an actual cathartic feeling when it's over. No proper plant results in less great payoff. That's basic writing.
I can't remember a single time a fight between one of the secondary Strawhats and a secondary villain was setup like you just described. Where was the set-up for Usopp and Chopper to fight Mr. 4 and Merry-Christmas, or for Sanji to fight Jabura, or for Chopper to fight Gedatsu? Are all these fights also terribly crafted and lacking what you call "proper setup"? The set-up for Robin and Black Maria was handled just fine, I personally really enjoyed how their personal conflict has been developed so far and am looking forward to its climax. Why do we need Black Maria to be also interested and knowledgable in history just so she can fight Robin? I mean, I'm sure that could have been interesting too, but I don't see how Oda going a different route with the fight automatically translates to bad writing.
Robin coming in to save Sanji and being pissed at Black Maria for basically torturing one of her friends also works quite well and seems a much more personal motivation to fight her than just doing it because they both care about history, and it's also cool because Robin is a character who doesn't often get to protect one of her friends, im comparison to Luffy, Zoro or Sanji himself.
I'm not completely satisfied with the fights so far myself, but that's mostly due to the comparatively little screentime they've gotten. The fights between Jinbe and Who's Who and Franky and Sasaki were great, but they didn't feel completey climactic to me for two reasons: First, Oda didn't end their fights by showing us their defeated opponent on the ground, which he usually does, and I think that does affect our perception of how conclusive the finishers truly were. Secondly, they personally left me wanting more. I really liked what we got, I just feel like it wasn't quite enough, especially Franky vs. Sasaki. If we had, like, at least half a chapter more of it, I think I would be more satisfied. But the fights themselves are fine. I don't see any differences in quality to, say, Zoro vs. Kaku or Sanji vs. Mr. 2, just that we got to spend more time with those fights and thus got to savor them more.
I think that effect is also increased by the fact that it really took a ton of hits and effort to take Ulti down - I mean, she survived a direct attack from a Yonko! So it does feel a little weird that the other Tobi Roppo don't seem to display the same level of endurance. But maybe I'm judging to early, who knows.
-
Do you know what I asked myself every arc before Oda introduced us to awakening?
"What's going to be the Shadow's Asgard of the current villain?"The Ground Seko, the 200 million Volt Amaru, the Rokougan, the Ursus Shock?
The only thing that changed is that I'm not waiting for those ultimate attacks anymore, I'm waiting for the Awakening. That's the only difference, the villain's desperation move just got a fancy name. Hell, I'm even expecting Oda to retrofit the concept of awakening to some of the examples above.
Insinuating some sort of Bleachification based on this is… harsh.
That said, I'm not expecting Awakenings for every Beast Pirate. I think it would make sense and it wouldn't surprise me, but the Flying Six are not strictly on my desperation-move radar, only Kaido is:
-
We got his basic moveset down, clubbing and some plain elemental attacks
-
We went through his two basic Zoan transformations in the process
-
We witnessed his large scale "everything is on a clock now" - move, his Plazabomb/Raigo/Sunrise/Birdcage.
The only thing left is his last resort desperation move. His Shadow's Asgard, his awakening.
I could definetely see Kaidou getting some awakening-trump card based on the precedence with Doflamingo and Katakuri, but my point was more reffering to the trend that every fight - or at least specifically the Zoan Beast Pirate fighters - is due an awakening, almost solely because the fights as is don't feel "proper". That the process of Awakening will include some sort of instant-healing factor that puts Ulti, Pageone, Whoswho and Sasaki back on their feet so they can get "proper" defeats, and make the beast pirates "proper" threatening, and provide the "proper" All Is Lost moment. Its the idea that no matter how cool and impactful a double spread of Whoswho or Sasaki being sent flying, this can't be taken at face value as a defeat, because they didn't awaken. Theres an expected point on the checklist that has not been checked yet, so they can't be finished. Thats what I mean by comparing to Bankai, because in any given Bleach fight, no one would accept a fight as thoroughly concluded before the fighters had shown of their Bankai/ ressuricion / whatever the sternritters had.
-
-
I agree that awakenings are awesome and will make the crew's victory way more meaningful, but that will drag the arc way too much, again.. Oda took too long to build the raid and now I fear we must accept that the battles are done in 1-2 chapters…
-
IMO, Awakening is too rare of an occurrence in OP to be given to what are essentially Doffy's guys MK2.
If anyone in Kaido's crew gets it, it's probably gonna be Kaido alone, or at most, his most direct subordinates, the Calamities.
-
@Daz:
I could definetely see Kaidou getting some awakening-trump card based on the precedence with Doflamingo and Katakuri, but my point was more reffering to the trend that every fight - or at least specifically the Zoan Beast Pirate fighters - is due an awakening, almost solely because the fights as is don't feel "proper". That the process of Awakening will include some sort of instant-healing factor that puts Ulti, Pageone, Whoswho and Sasaki back on their feet so they can get "proper" defeats, and make the beast pirates "proper" threatening, and provide the "proper" All Is Lost moment. Its the idea that no matter how cool and impactful a double spread of Whoswho or Sasaki being sent flying, this can't be taken at face value as a defeat, because they didn't awaken. Theres an expected point on the checklist that has not been checked yet, so they can't be finished. Thats what I mean by comparing to Bankai, because in any given Bleach fight, no one would accept a fight as thoroughly concluded before the fighters had shown of their Bankai/ ressuricion / whatever the sternritters had.
Most of these expectations don't really stem from the concept of Awakening in itself, but is rather due to the fights themselves not feeling cathartic enough. As I said above, I think that mostly comes down to the fact that Jinbe's and Franky's fights against Who's Who and Sasaki were comparatively short (good, but short) while at the same time the big strength of the Beast pirates is their endurance, i. e. you can't keep them down, they just stand up again and again. So Sasaki and Who's Who going down quickly goes against what we know of the Beast pirates. Ulti on the other hand definitely showed her toughness, at the very least. People only want her to awaken so Nami can finish her off in a more satisfying manner.
My point is, the fights don't feel unsatisfying because we need to see their Awakened forms, it's the other way around: People are clamoring for the Beast pirates to show their Awakened forms because they aren't fully satisfied with their fights yet.
Of course, the fact that we haven't seen Zoan Awakenings since Impel Down and it's never been thematized in the story much does play a factor, too. It would be cool for Oda to showcase and explore Zoan Awakenings and the Beast pirates would be perfect for that. But I think you're overgeneralizing here. People didn't go into this arc fully expecting every Beast pirate officer to showcase their Awakened forms, this isn't a general expectation people have for fights now, except maybe for the main villain.
Plus, you could make the same exact complaint about Zoan hybrid forms, and it would actually be true in that case - people do expect a Zoan enemy to at least showcase their hybrid form before they are defeated. I don't think anybody would think Who's Who and Sasaki could be down if we hadn't seen their hybrid forms yet. Isn't that the exact same thing - that Oda has started a trend (Zoan enemies show of their hybrid forms before they are defeated, main enemies show of their Awakening form before they are defeated) and people now build their expectations based on that trend? What makes Awakening worse in your eyes? Isn't it just the fact that it's a trend that was introduced post-timeskip whereas Zoan hybrid forms as a 'trend' were introduced pre-timeskip and you are biased against Post-TS One Piece?
-
Most of these expectations don't really stem from the concept of Awakening in itself, but is rather due to the fights themselves not feeling cathartic enough. As I said above, I think that mostly comes down to the fact that Jinbe's and Franky's fights against Who's Who and Sasaki were comparatively short (good, but short) while at the same time the big strength of the Beast pirates is their endurance, i. e. you can't keep them down, they just stand up again and again. So Sasaki and Who's Who going down quickly goes against what we know of the Beast pirates. Ulti on the other hand definitely showed her toughness, at the very least. People only want her to awaken so Nami can finish her off in a more satisfying manner.
My point is, the fights don't feel unsatisfying because we need to see their Awakened forms, it's the other way around: People are clamoring for the Beast pirates to show their Awakened forms because they aren't fully satisfied with their fights yet.
Oh, I definetely agree with this, this is the same perspective I was trying to convey.
@Riddler:Of course, the fact that we haven't seen Zoan Awakenings since Impel Down and it's never been thematized in the story much does play a factor, too. It would be cool for Oda to showcase and explore Zoan Awakenings and the Beast pirates would be perfect for that. But I think you're overgeneralizing here. People didn't go into this arc fully expecting every Beast pirate officer to showcase their Awakened forms, this isn't a general expectation people have for fights now, except maybe for the main villain.
I assure you I've seen a multitude of posters here voicing their anticipation that the top ranking Zoan officers will pull out Awakenings. The distinction might be that many did not necessarily "Go In" expecting them, but certainly are now, as a remedy to the- as you also say- percieved current "underwhelming" state of fights, and maybe the beast pirates as whole. And therein lies my larger problem, and my answer to your final question
@Riddler:What makes Awakening worse in your eyes? Isn't it just the fact that it's a trend that was introduced post-timeskip whereas Zoan hybrid forms as a 'trend' were introduced pre-timeskip?
My issue is that the expectation of awakening means rejecting the current most straightforward interpretation of the current fights - as you say, theres an established pattern where zoan users use their hybrid form before getting put down for good, and this is pretty much what we've been getting for the last while. Hybrid form reveals, big double-spreads of someone landing a decisive blow to a Flying Six member, cut to something else. By all accounts the manga is selling the exact same pattern of "its time for the officers to go down", but the expectation of an awakening assisted tournaround means actively not buying into this. It means taking the big moments of Jinbe or Franky blowing their opponents away and reducing them to minor setbacks for their opponents at best, which just…isn't what the manga is selling. Relying on a future event to essentially provide a do-over for what you've just seen is the kind of perspective that can make the entire raid fall apart in retrospect - "there was no act 4 with Awakening rebounds? Then...that means the fight conclusions were actually all bad all along!"
-
@Daz:
I could definetely see Kaidou getting some awakening-trump card based on the precedence with Doflamingo and Katakuri, but my point was more reffering to the trend that every fight - or at least specifically the Zoan Beast Pirate fighters - is due an awakening, almost solely because the fights as is don't feel "proper". That the process of Awakening will include some sort of instant-healing factor that puts Ulti, Pageone, Whoswho and Sasaki back on their feet so they can get "proper" defeats, and make the beast pirates "proper" threatening, and provide the "proper" All Is Lost moment. Its the idea that no matter how cool and impactful a double spread of Whoswho or Sasaki being sent flying, this can't be taken at face value as a defeat, because they didn't awaken. Theres an expected point on the checklist that has not been checked yet, so they can't be finished. Thats what I mean by comparing to Bankai, because in any given Bleach fight, no one would accept a fight as thoroughly concluded before the fighters had shown of their Bankai/ ressuricion / whatever the sternritters had.
I see.
Well, I don't think it's fair to count on the awakening as if it's something Oda is owing us, at least when it concerns the lower commanders. I'm also not disappointed because the fights don't feel super "intimate", because they rarely are. And even if they were not, the main purpose of this war, as far as I understand it, is to show that the Straw Hats can tango with a Yonkou crew. So I never expected Franky vs. Sasaki to be comparable to his fight with Mr. Pink, which was comparatively… deep? It had another layer of... intimacy?
This war is about performance, about legitimacy. When this is over Luffy won't be considered half a Yonkou anymore, while his subordinates are suddenly part of the three great powers of the world.Of course we could say that we should get both, proper 1 vs. 1's and an organic / satisfying execution on every level, but from my point of view that's asking too much. It's greedy. At least in this total war scenario with 50 named sidecharacters.
I remember when a good portion of the forum worried that we won't be getting 1 vs. 1 battles at all:
I have deep concerns regarding hope for significant chapter-long named 1v1's here.
Oda…please don't forget your bread and butter.
and now when we got those fights we still ask for more. Like it's understandable, I think it would be great if we would get more than 1 chapters battles. Because this is a special occasion, not your average arc. But I don't think Oda delivers poorly here. (Except for the Nami fiasco, fuck that.)
Anyway, I believe the issue will be resolved once Black Maria is down, at which point Oda can announce the complete loss of the Flying Six in one big omph-moment. Then we can move on to King & Queen, followed by the Kaido climax.
-
@Daz:
Oh, I definetely agree with this, this is the same perspective I was trying to convey.
I assure you I've seen a multitude of posters here voicing their anticipation that the top ranking Zoan officers will pull out Awakenings. The distinction might be that many did not necessarily "Go In" expecting them, but certainly are now, as a remedy to the- as you also say- percieved current "underwhelming" state of fights, and maybe the beast pirates as whole. And therein lies my larger problem, and my answer to your final question
My issue is that the expectation of awakening means rejecting the current most straightforward interpretation of the current fights - as you say, theres an established pattern where zoan users use their hybrid form before getting put down for good, and this is pretty much what we've been getting for the last while. Hybrid form reveals, big double-spreads of someone landing a decisive blow to a Flying Six member, cut to something else. By all accounts the manga is selling the exact same pattern of "its time for the officers to go down", but the expectation of an awakening assisted tournaround means actively not buying into this. It means taking the big moments of Jinbe or Franky blowing their opponents away and reducing them to minor setbacks for their opponents at best, which just…isn't what the manga is selling. Relying on a future event to essentially provide a do-over for what you've just seen is the kind of perspective that can make the entire raid fall apart in retrospect - "there was no act 4 with Awakening rebounds? Then...that means the fight conclusions were actually all bad all along!"
I see your point, but it does read like you are blaming Oda for introducing Awakening as a new trend and thus raising our expectations for the fights, leading to readers being disappointed with what we are actually getting. And I don't think that's fair, because I don't think Oda ever set up that Beast Pirate officers would show their awakened forms. Imo it's completely on the fans themeselves who get so obsessed with their act 4 theory that they are just setting themselves up for disappointment when it doesn't happen. And the only reason people expect a huge dramatic moment of despair to end the act is because they read that that's how Act 3 is supposed to end and they are waiting for that.
Sure, we all want dramatic tension and desperate moments so that the victory feels more earned, but there have been plenty of moments like this already, and there will be a lot more. See Chapter 1014 for example. But people want those moments to linger for multiple chapters for some reason, even though there is barely any precedent for that in One Piece. Not to mention that the moment when everything seems lost usually comes after the main subordinates have been defeated already.
-
Oda's not going to do a 10 year project after OP is done. I have doubts about him managing anything in a single volume, but planning anything big ever again seems unlikely.
And I would prefer he do anythign BUT the OP universe. Let him do something totally new. OP spinoffs and movies will keep giving us new content forever, I'd rather see what else Oda can do when working from a clean slate.
I'm hoping after a well deserved break that Oda has the same time management and estimation skills so something intended to go 2 months goes a year, 2 years turns in to 5, 5 in to 10. Then just like that another great run.
All it takes is a few ppl or editors or the inspiration hitting Oda to add more characters. Then the story will grow beyond what he initially thought.
As for being set in the OP universe. The Wanted one shots were. Well most of them from the way they read (Gil Hard as, Ikki Yakko). So why not another?
-
Next to nothing has been established about anything on this topic. We've got no concrete idea how any awakenings work, for any kind of fruit. I remember a long period where the main theory behind Impel Down's "Awakened Zoans" was that they'd fed an animal a fruit of its own type, achieving the "enlightenment" alluded to in the SBS question about a human eating the Human Human Fruit.
Everyone assumes all Paramecia awakenings would work the same way as Doflamingo's, using the power to transform the environment. But how would that work for, say, Sugar and her touch activated power, or Foxy's projectile he can't actively manipulate once it leaves his body.
And there hasn't been any in-universe talk about how Logia awakenings work at all. There's a theory that it could be permanent environmental changes like what happened at Punk Hazard. I think that would make sense, but we just don't know for sure.
Awakening on the whole is one big unknown at the minute and anyone who's set on something specific they're hoping to see from it is risking disappointment.
I agree that people are risking disappointment but I would also say that the simplest answer is just accept what we've seen so far as the extent of it, which is that Zoan awakening forms are mindless beasts. It would explain why none of the Beast Pirates would want to awakening unless it was do or die (which we may still see in this arc, it depends on how awakening is activated which we don't really know yet but based on what we do know for Paramecia, it seems like training it).
I would say for Paramecia, given that the entire category is basically the misc. category it should be obvious that their awakening power can be whatever.
-
I find a big hiccup (if you can call it that) with awakening is that I've seen so little of it I don't know where to expect it.
Add to that a situation where the Strawhats are taking the steps from being just a strong crew to people playing on the same field as the emperors. There's a certain awkwardness to gauging the strength of the enemies, I had no idea what to expect from the Tobi Roppo. They're the elites of a Emperor crew so of course they must be strong, but they also need to be weak enough where the strawhats can beat them. And frankly I don't know how Oda would go about solving that bump. So would these people be strong enough or not for awakening? As it turns out they most likely aren't.
-
Just catching up but I feel like the unsatisfying fights are a problem of people having unrealistic expectations of the Beast Pirates. I know they have been hyped up as one of the strongest pirate crews but at this point the Straw Hats are almost certainly in that bracket. Like, I feel at this point even if Nami and Usopp are weak by comparison to Ulti and Page One, they are still far stronger than most other pirates out there and far stronger than how they were two years ago. So they should be able to stand up to some of the strongest pirates out there at this point.
-
Oh no, that's not what I meant.
I'm not talking about the Devil fruit replacing the personality, I imagine it more like the user letting the animal instincts take over willingly.
Oh ok. That's what I confused "the devil taking over the user" for.
See, most here consider their state of mind a negative side effect, but that's not necessarily the case in a battle situation. Remember Gomu Gomu no Baka?
! https://live.staticflickr.com/2783/4257780346_de1c02a517.jpg
Letting his instincts take over allowed him to dodge every move Enel made. In the end it didn't work because he couldn't switch into offense in this mindless state, but snotnose mode had clear benefits beyond comic relief.
Now that I always wondered if it was a devil fruit related ability. I thought it was based more on Luffy's stupidity and ability to space out. It's basically a version of Dragonball Super's ultra instinct.
I'm not sure rubber related.
The instinct stuff to me has more to do with zoans and the animal instinct in the more carnivorous animals.
Now, what I'm saying is that the Awakened Zoan mode might offer a state of mind purely focused on instinct and battle. Gomo Gomu no Baka, just with the animal instincts allowing for offense based on the will to kill.
Like, awakened Zoans would surely not lose their haki because someone saw their eel fish mouth.I think it's simply more of the animal mind. Fight or flight.
That's how the Impel Down guards came off just with a little of their personality seeping through.
-
My issue with awakenings is that for a big majority of paramecia, it just doesn't make sense, how can law's fruit become more op? what about how bonney's fruit works? or foxy's or shiki's or moria's or big mom's, or the quake fruit?
And compared with what Doffy or Katakuri were already doing, the clones, the armament haki arms from any angle, the birdcage, awakening only translated into "let me make my basic attack again, but bigger and from outside me".
I would have believed (and liked it better) that Mingo reeling back in all threads he already had in use to spear luffy with them, or Katakuri doing his best logia impression and getting access to more rice flour or fully made mochi would have worked the same, I would have liked it more that awakening was for zoan only…
And for logias is kinda worse still, Croc was great because he chose Alabasta as his home turf AND could make more desert on comand, Enel bypassed any limitation of his fruit thanks to Maxim, Akainu can make magma on any land, Aokiji can bullshit any ice on any non desertic island through atmospheric water drops, so now a logia, instead of making more of their elemement through it can just awaken and turn anything but the sea (maybe) into it.
3DS FC: 0516-7666-3837
SW-4128-8032-0729
-
My issue with awakenings is that for a big majority of paramecia, it just doesn't make sense
That' why Oda will not awaken all DFs.
About Law, we know it will give immortality to someone.
About logias such as Kuzan or the magma dude. It can literally change the atmosphere of the entire island even years after a fight…
Bigmom's fruit is probably already awakened and we've probably already seen what it looks like somehow.
Every nation gets the government it deserves.–-- Joseph de Maistre
-
I also feel some of the fruits we've seen were already awakened. Like, we readers think that's the normal power, but it's already in an advanced state.
For instance, maybe Kuma's is so overpowered because it's already awakened. The basic version wouldn't allow to push out pain or send people islands away.
I like this kind of headcanon whenever a fruit feels too overpowered or too versatile. It helps explain why some powers are so much stranger than similar ones.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
-
My issue with awakenings is that for a big majority of paramecia, it just doesn't make sense, how can law's fruit become more op?
The room is instantly bigger without trying?
Maybe he doesn't die if he makes someone immortal/eternal youth?
Just speculating:
what about how bonney's fruit works?
We don't fully know how her ability works but I'd say maybe she doesn't even need to touch you now to age you. If it isn't permanent, maybe it is permanent.
foxy's
A slow wave instead of beam? Making everyone around him slow while he moves at normal speed?
shiki's
Doesn't need to touch, can make living beings float, and it goes in to overdrive as full on atomic level telekinesis.
moria's
Salt doesn't work on zombies, he doesn't even need physically cut the shadow from you now he can just summon it to him and instantly kill you in the sunlight.
big mom's
That's easy. No fear stipulation for her take your life force. She just takes it. Maybe she can also have her soul leave her body like Brook's.
quake fruit?
This is a wonder cuz how more destructive can it get?
I use to think WB had already awakened it given jt apparently works on a global level. If not maybe thats the next step, worldwide earthquake.
And compared with what Doffy or Katakuri were already doing, the clones, the armament haki arms from any angle, the birdcage, awakening only translated into "let me make my basic attack again, but bigger and from outside me".
I would have believed (and liked it better) that Mingo reeling back in all threads he already had in use to spear luffy with them, or Katakuri doing his best logia impression and getting access to more rice flour or fully made mochi would have worked the same, I would have liked it more that awakening was for zoan only…
And for logias is kinda worse still, Croc was great because he chose Alabasta as his home turf AND could make more desert on comand, Enel bypassed any limitation of his fruit thanks to Maxim, Akainu can make magma on any land, Aokiji can bullshit any ice on any non desertic island through atmospheric water drops, so now a logia, instead of making more of their elemement through it can just awaken and turn anything but the sea (maybe) into it.
Thats why I think Oda should stress it's incredibly difficult to awaken your devil fruit ability even for the most powerful and special characters in OP or it takes a special super rare situation.
He needs to double back and say the ID guards got awakened through Vegapunk's scientific means and it was so unnatural that it had side effect of taking away the user's minds.
-
I also feel some of the fruits we've seen were already awakened. Like, we readers think that's the normal power, but it's already in an advanced state.
For instance, maybe Kuma's is so overpowered because it's already awakened. The basic version wouldn't allow to push out pain or send people islands away.
I like this kind of headcanon whenever a fruit feels too overpowered or too versatile. It helps explain why some powers are so much stranger than similar ones.
I completely disagree, why would Oda tell us when some are awakened and some aren't
If he has a df awaken he'll say it, otherwise it's just an overpowered fruit
if you want to believe otherwise that's just fine but I wouldn't go around calling devil fruits awakened when Oda hasn't specifically stated it as a fact
it's not just you though, my friend thinks Crocodile's fruit is awakened because of his ability to suck out moisture from things he touches
I think if it's awakened Oda will say so
Like once we finally learned what observation haki was he immediately told us it's what enel and all of them used in Skypeia
and I agree with Maxterdaxter that paramecia df awakenings just don't make sense in some cases
-
Maybe the awakening question would be someone great to ask Oda in an SBS! o:
Though I'm not sure if Oda uses fan mail from non-Japanese One Piece fans for these types of things.
-
I don't think it's a very controversial opinion, but I believe the awakening of devil fruits is one of the worst additions Oda made in the story. It adds nothing new or creative, makes things needlessly complex and seems like a Deus Ex Machina waiting to happen when characters (protagonist or antagonist) need to be stronger. The awakened zoan fruits at first seemed fine; although they are just stronger and more durable the "devil in the fruit" seemed to have taken control over the user's body. But the paramacia-users ruined it completely. What use is changing your surroundings in strings when you already can create an infinte amount of string out of thin air? Who cares that Katakuri can create more mochi out of inorganic materials while the more interesting part of his fruit (the seemingly logia-like nature of his fruit) has nothing to do with the awakening of it?
-
That' why Oda will not awaken all DFs.
About Law, we know it will give immortality to someone.
About logias such as Kuzan or the magma dude. It can literally change the atmosphere of the entire island even years after a fight…
Bigmom's fruit is probably already awakened and we've probably already seen what it looks like somehow.
Yeah, doubt he'll make the awkward ones awaken. Besides, why should they all be awakened anyway. It should be reserved for the best of the best. And zoans who start relying on their fruits too much.
As for Law, is it awakening or just a special technique that doesn't need awakening at all?
About logias and climate change, that doesn't even need to be awakening. Considering every island in OP world has a separate climate, it doesn't take that much to change the weather for good. Plus PH already had it's climate fucked up beforehand thanks to CC. So basically it was probably a clean slate for new climate. But if any logia achieved awakening, those 2 are probably prime candidates, considering how long they had to play with their abilities.
Wondering if we'll ever get into intricacies of BM's fruit.
-
I completely disagree, why would Oda tell us when some are awakened and some aren't
If he has a df awaken he'll say it, otherwise it's just an overpowered fruit
if you want to believe otherwise that's just fine but I wouldn't go around calling devil fruits awakened when Oda hasn't specifically stated it as a fact
it's not just you though, my friend thinks Crocodile's fruit is awakened because of his ability to suck out moisture from things he touches
I think if it's awakened Oda will say so
Like once we finally learned what observation haki was he immediately told us it's what enel and all of them used in Skypeia
and I agree with Maxterdaxter that paramecia df awakenings just don't make sense in some cases
I see awakening the same way I see haki. It's something that has been in the story since forever, the author had it in the back of his mind, even if it wasn't fully fleshed out, and left hints of it here and there, while not telling us anything clear until the moment for a real explanation.
I feel we've seen awakened fruits since at least Arabasta. It's just those powers were never detailed before.
-
Feel like awakening should have been left strictly with zoans. Since the other types of fruit seemingly lack living creature DNA.
Plus, logia are already overpowered and can practically throw their element around as much as they want. Perhaps awakening should have been the reason why some of them can be intangible. User becomes one with the element and can thus avoid attacks. But not automatically. That could have made Armament Haki irrelevant.
Paramecia are just multiple categories bundled up under one name. We have permanently changed users, morphers, creators, physics manipulators, concept utilizers… So string fruit awakening makes the person who can create strings turn every object into strings. How does that translate to an ability that allows the user to return the damage they took equally, or to user who shoots slow rays or to person who turns people into toys and makes everyone forget about them or to a person who grows their own limbs both from her body or from other surfaces... Like seriously, Robin can already grow limbs from houses. When she awakens, can she grow another house from an existing house? Or does the fact she can create a clone mean that she's already awakened it?
Needlessly complicated, like I said, and should have been left to zoans, maybe to give their more straightforward toolset an edge against the more hax abilities. But that's just my opinion.
-
New column is up but I think I might have discussed a number of the topics here already.
If you're expecting Oda to do anything long term after OP, don't hold your breath.
He wants nothing more than to be done. But he's also a badass who doesn't want to half-ass anything so he's doing his best.
If he doesn't go the same route as Toriyama I'll eat my underwear.
The man's great-grandkids won't need to work a day in their lives.
-
I also feel some of the fruits we've seen were already awakened. Like, we readers think that's the normal power, but it's already in an advanced state.
For instance, maybe Kuma's is so overpowered because it's already awakened. The basic version wouldn't allow to push out pain or send people islands away.
I like this kind of headcanon whenever a fruit feels too overpowered or too versatile. It helps explain why some powers are so much stranger than similar ones.
I always felt like Crocodile's fruit was awakened when we heard about the concept.
Feel like awakening should have been left strictly with zoans. Since the other types of fruit seemingly lack living creature DNA.
Plus, logia are already overpowered and can practically throw their element around as much as they want. Perhaps awakening should have been the reason why some of them can be intangible. User becomes one with the element and can thus avoid attacks. But not automatically. That could have made Armament Haki irrelevant.
Paramecia are just multiple categories bundled up under one name. We have permanently changed users, morphers, creators, physics manipulators, concept utilizers… So string fruit awakening makes the person who can create strings turn every object into strings. How does that translate to an ability that allows the user to return the damage they took equally, or to user who shoots slow rays or to person who turns people into toys and makes everyone forget about them or to a person who grows their own limbs both from her body or from other surfaces... Like seriously, Robin can already grow limbs from houses. When she awakens, can she grow another house from an existing house? Or does the fact she can create a clone mean that she's already awakened it?
Needlessly complicated, like I said, and should have been left to zoans, maybe to give their more straightforward toolset an edge against the more hax abilities. But that's just my opinion.
I feel like people have the idea that all Awakenings should be the same because the two samples we've confirmed are relatively the same. I saw the same problem with bankais in Bleach.
-
@Freestyle:
I always felt like Crocodile's fruit was awakened when we heard about the concept.
I feel the same. He claimed there was another level to Devil Fruit powers back then, and that he had mastered his. He was also the character that revealed knowledge of "awakened zoans" in Impel Down. And his ability to turn things into sand is a lot like other awakened powers we've seen. To me, Crocodile had already awakened his power until proven otherwise, and I wouldn't be surprised if he is the character that explains awakening to Luffy.
I feel like people have the idea that all Awakenings should be the same because the two samples we've confirmed are relatively the same. I saw the same problem with bankais in Bleach.
Yeah, I think awakening can be very different depending on the fruit.
I feel Brook awakened his fruit during the timeskip. I remember reading somewhere an user instinctively knows the basic gist of his fruit upon eating it. So Brook should have an idea that he could separate his soul from the body or use it to evoke cold energy from beyond before. Learning a total new level of power, to me, feels like what awakening should be.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
-
While Crocodile is by far my favorite character in this series I will have to say that I think my boy definitely didn't have an awakened DF back in Arabasta (or even at Marineford). Nothing he showed back hen indicated that his control of a logia abilitiy is tge same level as Aokiji, who could freeze the sea further than the eye can see. If anything, he clearly stated with his own words where his limits are. He told Luffy that he couldn't stop the sandstorm anymore even if he wanted because that was not within his ability anymore. I would expect an awakened logia to be able to pull something like this off. Especially if you consider that it was a comparably small attack if you look at the magnitude of disasters characters can unleash nowadays.
Also I think it makes more sense for him (and other characters like Enel) not to have it because once he gets reintroduced to the story aquiring awakening (and perhaps Haki) would make it more believable that he's powered up enough to stay relevant as a fighter (even though we know he's not gping to win any fights).
-
I feel the same. He claimed there was another level to Devil Fruit powers back then, and that he had mastered his. He was also the character that revealed knowledge of "awakened zoans" in Impel Down. And his ability to turn things into sand is a lot like other awakened powers we've seen. To me, Crocodile had already awakened his power until proven otherwise, and I wouldn't be surprised if he is the character that explains awakening to Luffy.
Yeah, plus there are a lot of parallels between Doffy and Croc, this would be another one.
Yeah, I think awakening can be very different depending on the fruit.
I feel Brook awakened his fruit during the timeskip. I remember reading somewhere an user instinctively knows the basic gist of his fruit upon eating it. So Brook should have an idea that he could separate his soul from the body or use it to evoke cold energy from beyond before. Learning a total new level of power, to me, feels like what awakening should be.
Exactly! By nature, the Yomi Yomi no Mi would have a radically different awakening from the ones we've seen before. We don't know the process of it, but I imagine awakening would naturally be proceeded by users taking their fruits abilities to the limits via experimentation.
-
@Freestyle:
I feel like people have the idea that all Awakenings should be the same because the two samples we've confirmed are relatively the same. I saw the same problem with bankais in Bleach.
Not me, though. But I'd like some internal consistency. Consistency in why something works the way it works. Especially considering the devil fruits are almost certainly an engineered product. And that's an element Oda decided upon.
And don't really see the similarity in the way ID zoans and string fruit worked. Just completely different concepts.
