Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

[Greg]

But, Gregm surely, after decades of writing and drawing these characters, is it really that far-fetched to expect a certain level of, as you say, infallibility?

Fair question.

I think we need to look at what you mean by 'a certain level of infallibility'.

By definition, I don't think that notion even works. A given 'thing' is either infallible…or it's not. It's breaking it down to basic yes or no.

But if you were to question whether or not he could have certain circles of infallibility, that's a fair question to explore....

.....until we realize that it actually means 'perfection' and unless we disagree that outside of vernacular and hyperbole, perfection does not actually exist as we know it, then no, on any level, Oda cannot be considered infallible on any level of creating the series.

He can be incredibly skillful, he can satisfy the majority of fans, maybe even satisfy all fans, but by definition he cannot make infallible or perfect decisions (with the work viewed against itself in a mirror) and that's true for whether I think he's done superb work or not.

I would argue that he knows how to handle his characters better than probably anyone if he has every bit of information at his disposal. But as I've suggested in the past, One Piece is not the creation of just one person. There are many, many hands that go intro constructing not just the artwork, but also the story and its progression. As it's creator, Oda gets to stand at the top of that pyramid as is his right. But when you actually know how a single chapter or saga is created, you begin to see how many great minds work together and even save each other from dangerous pitfalls in the creation of a story.

There are developments in One Piece that fans cheer as a triumph of Oda's creation. Yes, he made the final decision and therefore the work is his, but in reality, those championed decisions are sometimes the result of some unexpected and unlikely sources of collaboration.

That's a lot of dissection and I'm not trying to overwhelm you. It's a completely fair question to have asked but I would argue that no, Oda cannot be expected to be infallible on any level of creation. Only that has has (pretty damn close to) absolute control over creation.

Aslo Greg since you are around. Quick Question.

What's your opinion on Sanji and how he has never reacted, commented or acted on the Starvation problem in Wano.

Wano is the only arc with this particular problem. Sanji is the only Strawhat familiar with this problem and can solve.

Yet, he has completely ignored it.

Luffy is getting more mad at the food problem than Sanji.

How does this make sense.

This is, like most things, the result of One Piece's 'new' pace and expanded cast. That's a boring answer but it's probably the most likely reason. Sanji probably does have those kinds of scenes. But unless it's a main story point for him that Oda needs to foreshadow, it's more of a slice-of-life moment and, my God, slice-of-life has just been beaten to a pulp in the New World.

I think that's a perfect SBS question. I would send it if I were you.

[Monquito]

There's gotta be some feedback shenanigans happening behind curtains.

You could bet Khalifa could've obliterated Nami with Rokushiki, but instead she barely uses it, and said fight its widely remembered as an horrendous precedent of plot armor and fan-service.

Imagine that would reach Oda's ears, he'd perfectly go; Ok fine, we're not doing it again, scolds Fandom with Big Mom doing it instead.

Perhaps Oda is going thru his gangsta phase.

[sggupta]

@Monquito:

You could bet Khalifa could've obliterated Nami with Rokushiki, but instead she barely uses it, and said fight its widely remembered as an horrendous precedent of plot armor and fan-service.

Yeah, I've been wondering about this. I see people bringing up the Khalifa fight a lot,but from what I remember that fight was heavily criticised for multiple reasons. So do the people here and now think the Khalifa fight was good,or do they just think that while it was flawed, it was still better than the current situation?

[Robby]

The Khalifa fight was bad in that it was blatant fanservice with the bath and all, and that Kalifa didn't use half her moveset.

But nami making illusions and out-maneuvering her worked out and it felt like an earned victory, even if the middle was messy.

Here the whole thing was messy, AND didn't feel earned.

[maxterdexter]

That could be improved with Kalifa going “I’m just testing my new toy”, or Nami tricking her into thinking she can counter the (wind scar thing?) easily, or Nami actually having a weather move that messes up the leg thing forcing Kalifa to rely on (finger gun).

[ARTEMlS]

I always interpreted Oda's "I don't know how to beat Kaido" statement of him being perfectly aware of that. Like he has dozens or even hundreds of different outcomes in mind, both none of them fells like the "only possible outcome" from his perspective.

Due to this statement, despite having a lot of problem with dressrosa or WCI I nevertheless was super hyped for Wano to see what will this "one ond only possible outcome" be that Oda has been working on for probably decades and that he is aware of that is has to be the culmination of a decades long build-up. But nowadays I'm not confident any more that the grande finale will be that compelling and cathartic.

[Kaworu]

The "why didn't Khalifa just Shigan Nami in the neck" angle is dicey. You have to start asking lots of other questions.
"Why didn't Kizaru just laser Luffy through the head in Marineford?"
"Why didn't Kaido just kill Momonosuke in the flashback?"
"Why didn't Kaido just make sure Luffy was dead on his second defeat?"
"Why didn't Crocodile just dry out Vivi and kill her?"
It's because Oda wants to put our main characters in dangerous situations where they're beyond what they can take on so that it's interesting, but he doesn't want to kill them so early on, so one has to use suspension of disbelief. I've always seen all these types of moments as a positive for the series, not a negative. I knew he wasn't going to kill a Straw Hat at that point in the story, but I'm just happy he let it get so far.

This type of question really tears apart a ton of media, so there's a reason suspension of disbelief is a thing. In Hunter X Hunter.
"Why didn't Neferpitou just kill Gon before he transformed?" There was time, she's incredibly quick, he was doing a whole transformation sequence.

[Joy Boy]

This arc has far bigger problems than Nami.

greg I've never seen you make a comment about this arc lack of tension and high stakes and sense of risk. Why do you think it is so low compared to other arcs ?

[Jabra]

@Robby:

Make em struggle, make em win with some luck and some help, make it clear they're getting through this by the skin of their teeth, but don't have the entire crew be just… ineffectual.

The thing is… I actually believe Oda thinks what Nami and Usopp pulled here was effectual, or at least effectual enough at this point in time. So I'm already moving away from looking at this whole war through the eyes of a reader who's really thirsty for the good old bread & butter fights, to simply accepting that this massive war is nothing but the last setup before we're heading into the real war (that keeps being teased every 10 chapters or what?).

It's the only logical explanation for me. Oda makes mistakes, but this is simply too much of a fuckup to randomly happen. This wasn't just an unsatisfying fight, Oda put his foot down to signal that no, this war isn't supposed to be what we're desperately looking for.

So what am I expecting now? That every Straw Hat will receive a similiar treatment. Not the exact same treatment, but within these limits:

1. Be effective at keeping a Yonkou crew occupied

2. Introduce their endgame combat tools before we hit the final stretch (to avoid an Enies Lobby 100% asspull scenario)

3. Without threatening any tension in regards to their final encounters (like Zoro won't beat a former Impel Down Warden if his Blackbeard opponent is yet another former Impel Down Warden).

So going through each Straw Hat, the final outcome could look like this:

! Zoro claimed the cure for the virus from Apoo, dealt with a Number, scarred Kaido, blocked a double Yonkou attack for a second and awakened CoC. No one would say that he underperformed in this war, despite having no real 1 vs. 1 encounter.
! Chopper beat the virus in his role as a doctor, introduced us to his extended Rumble Ball (with a hint/setup for a future overuse-transformation), kept a 1+ billion bounty dude occupied for half an hour, while another 700 million dude shot arrows in his back.
! Usopp converted a vast portion of the enemy forces through Sugar's Tama's mind control millets, kept a top commander occupied for a few hours and disabled the enemy intelligence system.
! Nami kept a commander busy, stole the weapon of a Yonkou and finished said commander with it. Not sugarcoating here, but it's not nothing.
! Sanji saved Momonosuke, forced a Yonkou top commander into serious combat (hybrid mode), either accepts the Raid Suit as his upgrade or it gets destroyed and he unlocks something else (Okama Kenpo, CoC..?)
! ….you get the idea. Acceptable showing overall, but not Alabasta style victories. Possibly easier to swallow when Oda drops the bounties of every commander.

I believe this is the current disconnect in the discussion. We want / believed this would be what we waited for, while Oda would rather not have his climax threatened by the crew "overperforming" beforehand. I mean he did say that one of his bigger worries is making the protagonists too strong too early after all.

Of course it's not an excuse to deliver underwhelming chapters like these, but this line of thinking makes more sense to me than Oda simply not getting how underwhelming this is.

[ARTEMlS]

@kevo_koma:

But, Gregm surely, after decades of writing and drawing these characters, is it really that far-fetched to expect a certain level of, as you say, infallibility?

Definitely not. Of course, as Greg said absolute perfection will never be reached, but speaking of a certain level of writing quality it's perfectly fine to have certain expectations. There are measurements of quality in the department of writing of dramaturgy. That is fact, otherwise it would be impossible to compare two different pieces of work - like Hamlet and some story I've written like 25 years ago. I mean there's no objective way to measure it so it's especially impossible to determine whether one of the two is better or worse, eh?

! Bullshit. My story is garbage and fails on absolutely every literary level possible. I just had no real idea what I was doing. Only thing I can give me is that most of the time I've written somewhat systactically and semantically correct sentences. And even that with a big grain of salt.

There are lots of dramaturgic principles every kind of author has to follow which to a great deal have been always the same since milleniums.

And that's where the problem with present day Oda and One Piece lies: He ignores a lot of these basic principles.

One of these principles is that there is a dramatic question which gets established at the start and gets a resolution at the very end of a overall story, story arc or even subplot. Is it possible to answer that question already midway? Actually yes. it's perfectly fine - as long as you right away ask another new dramatic question which is equally hard to solve, or better even harder to solve, therefore creating even more tension and stakes.

Oda, however, nowadays instead of answering these questions properly he just replaces them by weaker easier-to-resolve questions and then answers these. That's basically literary strawmanning. He does so in almost every plot recently - be it main or subplot. No one expects Oda to be absolutely infallible and perfect, but in case of chickening out from previously established question the incidents where he fails aren't singularities any more, instead it's really basically every subplot. Surprisingly the Nami subplot is no exception.

What was the initially asked dramatic question from the Nami subplot? So the Strawhats arrived in order to take some big names. Not only did Nami call for Ulti, Ulti also accepted the call by going exclusively after Nami now. Not someone else, it was personal for Ulti now. It has to be Nami and no one else. So the dramatic question is:

(1) How will Nami survive and overcome that ridiculously strong veteran - and more ressourceful!!! - Yonko Commander that will go right after her head?

However, then Big Mom happened and we ended up with:

(2) How will Nami and friends overcome that almost passing out former shell of herself that lacks any ressources now, anyway?

That is the question that got answered. But that's also a question no one cared for even in the slightest.

–-

How about instead that happened (as one of the many possible different outcomes):

When Nami lied to Big Mom, Ulti showed that she also can be decently (street) smart.

Ulti: "N-No... She lies, it was her who is lying. gulp A-Ah, see that Tama-girl. Right now, she's running away. sigh Because THEY are the liars. Nami is the one who beats up innocent children. Nami is the shit here!"

And then Big Mom goes after Nami, too. Being the 5-yo-child she mentally is she makes it some kind of competition with Ulti whom see sees as a rival child. So they both go after Nami who only barely survives because they also sabotage each other. (Luckily BM really rspects Ulti enough to not attack her even in the slightest.) Ulti's grin afterwards is priceless too, of course. So we get:

(2b) How will Nami survive and overcome Ulti AND fucking emperor Big Mom both exclusively going right after her and only her head?

During the following confrontation now only did she get separated from Usopp, but Ulti and Big Mom also got in some heavy hits. Despite none of the attacks connecting fully due to them sabotaging each other, Nami nevertheless is heavily injured and on the brink of death. (The zeus absorption also happens somewhere there I guess.)

Of course, at the end of the day Ulti doesn't want to share the kill with her rivalress. So she gets rid of Big Mom. Not in direct combat, of course, but by exploiting her 5-yo-child mindset and directing her attention to something else. (Big Mom is out of this and leaves towards one of the another subplots currently going on.)

Ulti again goes directly for Nami. However, Tama steps in in order to buy some time. She attacks Ulti with dozens of her tamed creatures.

Ulti: "All you can do is run and exploit others by letting them do your dirty work? You're pathetic. Claiming to care for children, but then just let them fight for you to save your sorry ass, completely fine with them getting slaughtered in battle. If you think you're the better person, you indeed are the better liar out of us two!"

Nami, heavily injured, only barely can crawl away. Then Ulti appears right in front of her - dropping away the beaten-up "dead" Tama to the side.

Ulti: "Now it's just you and me!"

Ulti grins even more devilish than she has done before all the time.

Ulti: "But I somewhat like you! You can become my subordinate. Just quit Luffy and the Strawhats! I'll only have to replace your silly tattoo by our sign, then you're in. Really. No big deal!"

Of course, Nami refuses. Thanks to Zeus she barely manage to escape Ulti's clutches. But still, even combined with Zeus' powers she still cannot inflict any damage at all to Ulti. Nami tries to hide, whereas Ulti continuously charges for her.

Ulti: "Attacks such weak don't work on me!"

Nami: ("Nah, that's not what happened. You perfectly manage to ground yourself instinctively. Just like Luffy, you indeed are some battle genius!")

Therefore we come to (with counting Zeus as part of her arsenal now):

(3) How will Nami survive, overcome and finally beat that ridiculously strong and more resourceful veteran Yonko Commander that is also super battle smart and now even more bloodlusted to go right for her and only her head - with no help in sight in an unavoidable 1 vs. 1?

During the course of these plots and subplots I want to have added more obstacles hindering the protagonist instead of them getting removed, leading to a weaker strawman dramatic question who no one cares for at all. I want to FEEL all of Nami's pain and suffering, so that I can genuinely root for Nami to finally overcome all that insurmountable mess after the hardest never-seen-before struggle in her entire life up to this point. But that's just not the case here. Whatever happens to Nami now, she'll get through it without any real difficulty. So why should I care and root for her, anyway?

[Kfunk]

@Monquito:

There's gotta be some feedback shenanigans happening behind curtains.

You could bet Khalifa could've obliterated Nami with Rokushiki, but instead she barely uses it, and said fight its widely remembered as an horrendous precedent of plot armor and fan-service.

Imagine that would reach Oda's ears, he'd perfectly go; Ok fine, we're not doing it again, scolds Fandom with Big Mom doing it instead.

Perhaps Oda is going thru his gangsta phase.

I understand the criticism about that fight but it in-character it never bothered me that much, Kalifa gained a new ability that she wanted to try out, she didn't kill Sanji after beating him up either. Once she thought she was in danger she actually fought seriously but it was too late, the room was in Nami's control.

In the same arc Lucci lost because he didnt make sure Luffy was down for good and got taken by surprise

And even then Kalifa showed much more moves than Ulti did… Used several unique moves related to her devil fruit and did use rokushiki like Rankyaku, Geppou and even an unique version of shigan proper to her. Maybe notr everything but decent moveset showing.
Only thing Ulti did outside her usual headbutt was a nice speedy move to catch up with Komachiyo. I know she's a zoan but it still feels pretty mediocre as a moveset if she down for good.

While Nami took profit of her opponent overconfidence, she was the architect of her own victory. Avoided dangerous hits a few times thank to her own use of mirage and disturbed her opponent with an unprecedented new move of her creation to trap her into a powerful new move of her conception.
I don't think characters absolutely need 1 vs 1 or that Nami vs Kalifa was perfect but I like when straw hats have some kind of agency in what they accomplish.

I don't mind Nami getting help against much stronger opponent if needed. I mind that she barely had any play in her win. I think this what a lot of complaints really are about'

[Rean]

The big problem with the Nami moment is that Ulti doesn't really have an interesting power to begin with,she basically headbutts ppl all the time and that's it.

If the enemy is uninteresting, and the hero is primarily a set-up-based fighter, then the possibility of cool moments dramatically dwindles. And let's get real, if a given character's Zoan fruit ain't mythical, then it's highly likely that said character won't really have any enduring cool factor.

[ARTEMlS]

@Rean:

The big problem with the Nami moment is that Ulti doesn't really have an interesting power to begin with,she basically headbutts ppl all the time and that's it.

If the enemy is uninteresting, and the hero is primarily a set-up-based fighter, then the possibility of cool moments dramatically dwindles. And let's get real, if a given character's Zoan fruit ain't mythical, then it's highly likely that said character won't really have any enduring cool factor.

Yeah, that's another big problem. Seriously, what became of the concept of people with crazy DF powers and therefore you actually have to figure out at first what these powers are all about and then come up with a counter strategy.

Well, in Dressrosa we had Sugar who fits the bill, but the first time we learned about her as a person we right away were told by blatant and boring exposition everything we had to know in order to deal with her. Besides, her powers were created in a way which it made basically impossible to do any kind of interesting battle on equal footing with her due to the sheer brokenness of her powers.

How about coming up with some cool DF abilities leading to some creative battles where you have to deal with some ridiculously broken DF abilities (but barely survivable and therefore manageable, unlike Sugar's touch which basically is instant loss)?

Like in case of dinosaurs: Why not just give them some fancy additional strange or mythical additional abilities? For example Ulti also has some kind of spit - like these dinosaurs in Jurassic Park who took out that Nedry guy. And if hit in your face, you see all kinds of illusions and hallucinations. That even would fit so very well with Nami's theme of all the different weather illusions.

[Johnny B. Decent]

I think Ulti was a good foil to Nami: Whereas Nami is a physically weak fighter with a lot of tricks, Ulti is a simplistic brute that can take a whole lot of punishment.

[wolfwood]

@Johnny:

I think Ulti was a good foil to Nami: Whereas Nami is a physically weak fighter with a lot of tricks, Ulti is a simplistic brute that can take a whole lot of punishment.

Add to that the bickering brother sister dynamic that was a bit like a dark mirror to how the cowardly siblings act around each other and you had the whole concept laid out. The big moments practically make themselves with that kind of golden set up

[Benjaman]

I think the big problem with the Nami fight is that its main purpose it was not to showcase Nami's tricks and abilities to defeat a powerfull oponent, but to give a proper ending and establish for good her new power up.
Since the first moment in the raid her whole story line has move around encountering Big Mom and develop her relationsip with Zeus. That is why almost all the fight was offscreen as that wasn't the point.
Makes no sense in using panels on Nami thinking about how to fight Ulti if the final panel was always going to be her attacking with Zeus. It feels to me that Oda decided more on having Nami and Ussop being a conduit for Tama than anything else. Also a good excuse to showcase how fragile pirates can be under the stress of life and death situation, with her resolve of defending Luffy's dream being compared to the surrender of Ulti's personal one. I think the person that had the most to lose was Ussop as he cleared was put on the back of the whole "Nami and Zeus" storyline. It will be interesting to see how Oda gives back Ussop a moment to shine after his none fight with Page1.

[Cockycent]

@Benjaman:

I think the big problem with the Nami fight is that its main purpose it was not to showcase Nami's tricks and abilities to defeat a powerfull oponent, but to give a proper ending and establish for good her new power up.
Since the first moment in the raid her whole story line has move around encountering Big Mom and develop her relationsip with Zeus. That is why almost all the fight was offscreen as that wasn't the point.
Makes no sense in using panels on Nami thinking about how to fight Ulti if the final panel was always going to be her attacking with Zeus. It feels to me that Oda decided more on having Nami and Ussop being a conduit for Tama than anything else. Also a good excuse to showcase how fragile pirates can be under the stress of life and death situation, with her resolve of defending Luffy's dream being compared to the surrender of Ulti's personal one. I think the person that had the most to lose was Ussop as he cleared was put on the back of the whole "Nami and Zeus" storyline. It will be interesting to see how Oda gives back Ussop a moment to shine after his none fight with Page1.

Fair take. Acknowledged what it was about and not dismissing that Nami and Zeus are now an entity going forward.

[puffing.cinema]

@ARTEMlS:

Yeah, that's another big problem. Seriously, what became of the concept of people with crazy DF powers and therefore you actually have to figure out at first what these powers are all about and then come up with a counter strategy.

That never really happened in One Piece though. It's a classic HxH's or Jojo's scenario, but in One Piece the fruit user always explains his ability beforehand. The conflict is pinned on how to counter it. Even Sugar's fruit was already known; the dwarves had all info drilled into Robin, Usopp and the reader before facing her.

@ARTEMlS:

Like in case of dinosaurs: Why not just give them some fancy additional strange or mythical additional abilities? For example Ulti also has some kind of spit - like these dinosaurs in Jurassic Park who took out that Nedry guy. And if hit in your face, you see all kinds of illusions and hallucinations. That even would fit so very well with Nami's theme of all the different weather illusions.

Yeah, Ulti "can only headbutt" because Oda gave up on developing her as a fighter. My wild guess when entering Wano was that since we have armament factories in the island each Tobiroppo would have some kind of unique weapon to help during fights. When Sasaki showed that weirded blade and the Beast Pirates ship had long-range cannons I thought I had figured it out correclty but it turns out I was wrong in every sense of the question (lol).

It still hurts how underdeveloped Page One ended up being, too. Not even ONE named attack…generic punches,scraches and bites like a level 05 pokemon... shudders

[imperioonepiece]

@puffing.cinema:

That never really happened in One Piece though. It's a classic HxH's or Jojo's scenario, but in One Piece the fruit user always explains his ability beforehand. The conflict is pinned on how to counter it. Even Sugar's fruit was already known; the dwarves had all info drilled into Robin, Usopp and the reader before facing her.

Always? I dont know why, but I kinda remember some instances in which the character did not mentioned his/her fruit beforehand… Is this some case of Mandella effect? :ninja:

[puffing.cinema]

Up until Saboady - with the Supernovas introduction - most (if not all) characters had their abilities explained either when introduced or when their abilities were shown. Going forward, Impel Down guards fruits were concealed in name, but they were Zoans so it wasn't exactly a mistery. During the War some minor characters seemed to be using abilities and it wasn't addressed until recently (i.e. Poke Poke no Mi), but that's it.

I really don't recall a fighting situation were the protagonists had to learn how a fruit worked because the presentation was confusing or lead to the SHs trying some theories to understand it better. Arguably, now that I think harder about, it happened a bit with the Kage Kage no Mi and the Ito Ito no Mi (I guess) - even though the fruit's power was presented by Moria&Brook/Law&Doffy, the use of the fruit is so diverse that the SHs were always caught short-handed.

[Robby]

@Jabra:

I believe this is the current disconnect in the discussion. We want / believed this would be what we waited for, while Oda would rather not have his climax threatened by the crew "overperforming" beforehand. I mean he did say that one of his bigger worries is making the protagonists too strong too early after all.

That would be acceptable if Oda was REALLY on his "five years to go" timetable", in which case we would currently have three years to go and the actual final arc was just a few months away and we'd be getting those real payoffs relatively soon..

But we all know that's not the case unless he extremely shortchanges a bunch of a stuff. He can, that's his right, but its hard to believe the guy that's making Wano take 4 years is going to do Elbaf in three months.

But as THE payoff for the last decade? And without those real final bouts coming for probably another five or six years at least?

That would be an incredibly unsatisfying way to handle everything and I think would de-hype the finale more than excite anyone for it. "If he can't pay off this arc, why do we think he can manage it for the finale?"

If that's Oda's thinking I hope some editors tell him the reaction this chapter had and he reconsiders a bit.

I mean, their final opponents are going to be the strongest giants, elite marines and admirals, and Blackbeard's crew. The crew being pretty tough can still be an issue with those types remaining (though giants are kinda iffy).l Unless Oda has way more stops left than we expect…

[Sibersk Esto]

That's the funny part of all this. If Oda really wanted to just get the Nami part "over with", he would've written a straightforward no fuss no muss one and a half chapter fight where Nami does something clever and beats Ulti 1-2-3.

But because he has to make it ABSOLUTELY plausible that Nami beats Ulti, he engineers a comparably intricate set of dominoes that he goes out of the way to stack for the better part of 20 chapters, all with clear setups and payoffs down the line.

[Dorob333Neko]

My big issue and takeaway from this Nami and Usopp thing is if they can't beat Ulti and Page One will anyone expect them to defeat their BB opponents who will be stronger? Will Zeus handle it? Will Usopp get a Zeus? Just seems like garbage if you give a shit about the fights in this series.

Never mind the issues this might make in this very same arc. Big Mom defeating Queen mostly for Sanji might as well happen now too.

[Rean]

@ARTEMlS:

Yeah, that's another big problem. Seriously, what became of the concept of people with crazy DF powers and therefore you actually have to figure out at first what these powers are all about and then come up with a counter strategy.

Well, in Dressrosa we had Sugar who fits the bill, but the first time we learned about her as a person we right away were told by blatant and boring exposition everything we had to know in order to deal with her. Besides, her powers were created in a way which it made basically impossible to do any kind of interesting battle on equal footing with her due to the sheer brokenness of her powers.

How about coming up with some cool DF abilities leading to some creative battles where you have to deal with some ridiculously broken DF abilities (but barely survivable and therefore manageable, unlike Sugar's touch which basically is instant loss)?

Like in case of dinosaurs: Why not just give them some fancy additional strange or mythical additional abilities? For example Ulti also has some kind of spit - like these dinosaurs in Jurassic Park who took out that Nedry guy. And if hit in your face, you see all kinds of illusions and hallucinations. That even would fit so very well with Nami's theme of all the different weather illusions.

I don't agree that it's a problem with the series overall,just a problem with the beast pirates themselves, the Zoan theming is just far,far less interesting than the food one Oda picked for Big Mom.

[ARTEMlS]

Just look at how especially some of the main baddies were treated back then.

Sure Croc and Enel instantly got revealed that they were a sand person or a thunder person right when they were properly introduced. But that was it, if we got their powers revealed, it always was super basic and didn't reveal any of the deeper details, especially not what exactly is to do in order to beat them.

Instead we as readers were left to guess for ourselves beforehand how they will get beaten. We were only given some clues and had to fil in the gap for ourselves. And importantly, we got the right dose of showcase and information in order to properly understand and experience the story.

For example, look at Croc round 1. At the end Croc was super irritated as Luffy still lived, the dialogue clearly backs that up quite certainly. But, it that really all. Isn't Croc maybe also irritated because Luffy actually got in some very small hit there? Sure, he only grabbed his arm, no real damage, but nevertheless he managed the overcome the sand issue - in the first battle. Easy to skip, but perceptive readers could perfectly get the weakness there. (Rereading this, the hit Luffy got in might be even more severe than I thought.)

Or Mr. 2, he gave both, us readers and the Strawhats, that showcase and therefore the information that there is a doppelganger who can impersonate basically every important person involved in the Alabasta arc. What missed, however, was how the Strawhats are supposed to overcome that potential danger of everyone can be the doppelganger from now on. Also, remember Zoro being decently smart? Yeah, he actually was.

Nowadays, however, Oda mostly misses to get us the right dose. Like how he gave as a full strategy on Sugar instead of only giving us the proper amount of clues. Or when Big Moms powers got explained in a random situation without any narrative need to do so right at that point of the story.

Giving away too much information actually kills the tension.

On the other hand, Oda also misses in the other direction. Like, Kaido's final hit on Luffy happened offscreen. Here he gives us way too less clues for us to guess how Kaido finally will get beaten. (Unless the solution is: No cleverness involved, while avoiding enough enemy attacks Luffy hits just often and hard enough in the end.)

I'm not saying that dose of showcase and information was absolutely infallably perfect back then, but overall the ratio of giving us that right dose just was better back then like in Alabasta.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

The way I see, the focus on Nami this arc was character-based rather than fight-based. And the later was actually used to serve the former.

Nami had a few strong character moments in Act 3. Her refusal to lie to Ulti about Luffy becoming PK. Her standing up against her after seeing Tama getting beaten. Her forgiving of Zeus and trying to save him.

Getting a power up that allowed Nami to defeat Ulti was actually a reward to those, particularly the last one. Nami grew as a person and was "gifted" with a power up that let her beat Ulti.

Now there are upsides and downsides to this approach, for the manga. Personally, I'm a junkie for character development stories, and as I've grown older, I've come to appreciate those more over shounen fights. They stimulate my brain more and make me more impressed at the writer than seeing yet another fight. One Piece has always been a story that was lacking in that department, too. The strawhats got a huge development in their joining arc, then never again, except for Luffy and Usopp. And maybe Zoro, though his development is always linked to fighting due to his own nature. Post-timeskip seems to have changed that. Sanji got a lot of character development in WCI, and well-written one, imo, even though he got no fights. Chopper has been getting a long build up towards becoming a leader. Brook got some dramatic moments in WCI. Luffy, Usopp and Zoro got more stuff. Jinbe got multiple arcs of development. Only Robin and Franky haven't grown much. And as for Nami, there has been some writing towards making her a more empathetic and "motherly" person, perhaps to mirror Bellemere. She is drifring away from being just a greedy thief and trying to be more heroic and caring. You can see that as a big
focus for her in Punk Hazard, Zou, and now Wano.

Now there are downsides to this approach, too. First, One Piece has always been a battle manga even if that wasn't the only or the main focus, and we are losing something by having it focus on character instead. Nami vs Ulti gave us some cool character development, but not as cool of a battle. The other issue is that focusing on Nami's motherly side might be… borderline sexist? I mean, she is a pirate, first and foremost. But that's a discussion I don't have a very strong opinion on. I don't think it is necessarily sexist to highlight a woman's motherly and caring qualities, as long as that isn't done at the expense of her other abilities. And Nami has been shown to have many other abilities and usefulnesses in post-TS. Even then, the fighting side has suffered for her.

[Captain M]

I think the poor reception of the Nami stuff is all about expectations. And that's not because people are wrong to expect things, it's because Oda set up the wrong expectations.

No one's (as vocally) upset that Chopper isn't getting a dedicated, one on one fight at Onigashima because it was signposted from the very start of the battle that his subplot was the Ice Oni Virus and finding a cure for it. The fact that he got a hit in on Queen (with assistance) at the end of it is the cherry on top of him getting to do that doctor thing we were set up to expect from the start. There were whispers of Chopper facing Queen throughout, but we knew the virus would have to come first no matter what. Queen stayed up on the balcony, well out of Chopper's reach, until he was already hard at work on the cure. Expectations and payoff managed, even if Chopper curing a virus instead of fighting isn't what everyone would have wanted going in.

Compare and contrast Nami and Usopp. Their role is to protect Tama, help distribute the dumplings, and get the girl to the balcony. Everything else, including notching takedowns on big opponents, is secondary to that. In Oda's plan, it doesn't matter if Ulti and Page One were taken down in a sudden, unsatisfying way, because their role wasn't to provide a protracted head on battle, they were meant to chase Nami and Usopp while they did their Tama stuff and get cleaned up when there was no longer a need for a chase. The problem is, it isn't set up that way. Nami and Usopp start fighting Ulti and Page One before they get their Tama objective. Once the expectation has been set that "finish the dinosaur sibling fight" is their mission of the arc, it's extremely difficult to shift gears to Tama and not leave people waiting for them to go back to the dinosaurs. Worse, the two dinosaurs previously clashing with Luffy and Sanji sets them up as brawler-type enemies, not easily removed from play without an extended fight.

That's my take. Oda made a number of setup mistakes that left people wanting a straight up fight that was never on the cards. The early stages of the battle needed to say straight up "Nami and Usopp are going to run around and handle the Gifters, any significant takedowns that happen on the way will be luck or coincidence." If that was the case, a surprise beating of one enemy by Big Mom and near-deus ex machina lightning powerup to end the other wouldn't read as such an anticlimax.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Adding to my point (was waiting for another guy to post so I could separate the two posts, lol), another thing I believe has been a focus in post-TS is the strawhat pirates' heroism and selflessness. Pre-TS, it was about a crew of pirates who happened to be good people, but tried to focus on doing piracy first and ended up accidentally saving third parties. Here, they actively go about saving third parties and are not ashamed of it. Pre-TS, the reasons for the SHs to fight were usually to save one of their own, or someone who spent a lot of time with them (Nami, Vivi, Robin, Camie, Ace). Post-TS, that component is no longer a requirement. Luffy is much more comfortable in his role as a hero of the people in Wano, and while I've felt like the arc was lacking in tension because we didn't have a literal strawhat to save, maybe that was the point all along. One of the more dramatic scenes in the arc was the one in Chapter 1000 where Luffy remembers all the people who have suffered under Kaido's rule before punching him. Likewise, we've had things like Zoro and Sanji rushing in anger after seeing Yasu be executed, Chopper wanting to save everyone from the virus and now Nami showing the signs of empathy I've mentioned in the post above.

Other arcs have given a lot of focus to that, too. Fishman Island actually discussed whether Luffy wanted to be a hero or not but the hero side clearly won and Luffy went on to become a hero of the people. Punk Hazard was an arc whose main theme was compassion, with Caesar's fake and selfish compassion being contrasted by the strawhats risking their lives to save the children, the samurai and the Brownbeard pirates even though their goal at the point didn't require them to (they just had to capture Caesar). Sanji didn't get a fight, but he got to save Kinemon for selfless reasons, for example. Then Dressrosa keeps pushing that notion, with a highlight being how Usopp's personal arc was about him having to risk his life for people he didn't know, to become like Noland, while before, Usopp just had to risk his life for his friends, and another highlight being how Fujitora decided not to arrest the strawhats after seeing how heroic they were. Comes Zou, and Oda wants us to know over and over how the strawhats are such great and selfless people who will rush to rescue people in need. Then in WCI, Sanji gets an arc that brings back his early-manga identity as a cook who doesn't let people starve, and showcases his chivarly in refusing to dump Pudding. Sanji isn't getting a fight again, but Oda seems more interested in building this identity of Sanji as this romantic paladin (although the pervertness tends to sabotage that notion).

All of this is to explain why maybe the strawhats don't get as many fights, because for Oda what matters now is if they are shown doing great things for others, even if those things don't involve winning a 1v1. Instead of winning, they take a bullet to protect someone, for example.

Now again, there are ups and downs to this approach. One thing I've always wondered is how Oda was going to justify Luffy wanting to take down the World Government at the end of the story, since that wasn't really how the strawhats operated. But with the way things have been going, I feel like by the time we get to Laugh Tale, the strawhats will want to save the world because they will be comfortable in the role of heroes already. I'm also a sucker for stories about people being empathetic and selfless, so this is right up my alley. On the flipside, there's a feeling of chaotic fun that is lost when a crew of pirates no longer acts like pirates. They have never been too pirate-like, but post-TS took that to overdrive. This feels more like Hero Academia than like early One Piece, in some ways.

[Rean]

@ARTEMlS:

Just look at how especially some of the main baddies were treated back then.

Sure Croc and Enel instantly got revealed that they were a sand person or a thunder person right when they were properly introduced. But that was it, if we got their powers revealed, it always was super basic and didn't reveal any of the deeper details, especially not what exactly is to do in order to beat them.

Instead we as readers were left to guess for ourselves beforehand how they will get beaten. We were only given some clues and had to fil in the gap for ourselves. And importantly, we got the right dose of showcase and information in order to properly understand and experience the story.

For example, look at Croc round 1. At the end Croc was super irritated as Luffy still lived, the dialogue clearly backs that up quite certainly. But, it that really all. Isn't Croc maybe also irritated because Luffy actually got in some very small hit there? Sure, he only grabbed his arm, no real damage, but nevertheless he managed the overcome the sand issue - in the first battle. Easy to skip, but perceptive readers could perfectly get the weakness there. (Rereading this, the hit Luffy got in might be even more severe than I thought.)

Or Mr. 2, he gave both, us readers and the Strawhats, that showcase and therefore the information that there is a doppelganger who can impersonate basically every important person involved in the Alabasta arc. What missed, however, was how the Strawhats are supposed to overcome that potential danger of everyone can be the doppelganger from now on. Also, remember Zoro being decently smart? Yeah, he actually was.

Nowadays, however, Oda mostly misses to get us the right dose. Like how he gave as a full strategy on Sugar instead of only giving us the proper amount of clues. Or when Big Moms powers got explained in a random situation without any narrative need to do so right at that point of the story.

Giving away too much information actually kills the tension.

On the other hand, Oda also misses in the other direction. Like, Kaido's final hit on Luffy happened offscreen. Here he gives us way too less clues for us to guess how Kaido finally will get beaten. (Unless the solution is: No cleverness involved, while avoiding enough enemy attacks Luffy hits just often and hard enough in the end.)

I'm not saying that dose of showcase and information was absolutely infallably perfect back then, but overall the ratio of giving us that right dose just was better back then like in Alabasta.

I agree on Crocodile, but Enel's constant showcases of power consistently made Skypeia feel like a chore to read, which is a feeling that persisted with me throughout multiple re-reads. It's really all about how it's handled.

Sugar is honestly a special case because her powers are hax as fuck, it only takes her one touch to make the entire world forget about you, this pretty much dictates that explanation is given upfront because actually showcasing it on characters that matter like Leo etc would mean that the characters that could potentially give us an explanation are by definition unable to do so.

In addition, Oda constructed the entire Dressrosa emotional arc around Kyros, the Riku family and Law, and everything was in service of that continuing plot thread of Doffy fucking over people, for better or worse..

[Cockycent]

@Dragon:

And as for Nami, there has been some writing towards making her a more empathetic and "motherly" person, perhaps to mirror Bellemere. She is drifring away from being just a greedy thief and trying to be more heroic and caring. You can see that as a big
focus for her in Punk Hazard, Zou, and now Wano.

I don't think the greedy thief is being left behind. Brook playing possum to get away later with the PG rubbings was major not only because the way he managed it, but because it's a Yonko. We saw what Pedro lost trying before and his reaction to Brook succeeding. Their methods were complete opposite. One was come in w/o getting close to BM. While Brook wasn't intentional, he adjusted and let himself get close and BM's interest in him was a big help.

This matters because Nami stole the soul of a Yonko. Not just because she fed him or didn't want to kill him. She took action when she had no obligation to the Homie that betrayed her. This narrative kept Nami's thievery and motherly nature in mind. Nami isn't Jinbe. She's not gonna straight face Ulti as she declares Luffy is PK in that specific situation. She's gonna do it in her own way that matches her nature. Everything from not being the best physically, being motherly, stealing a valuable (in this case, BM's abandoned part of her) and in the middle of a chaotic war.

Now there are downsides to this approach, too. First, One Piece has always been a battle manga even if that wasn't the only or the main focus, and we are losing something by having it focus on character instead.

This is what separates OP from the others. This is literally a way to battle. Not only has Luffy and many others succeeded in fights due to the bonds formed, 1 of the top Pirates claimed this very method is the most dangerous on the sea.

Nami vs Ulti gave us some cool character development, but not as cool of a battle. The other issue is that focusing on Nami's motherly side might be… borderline sexist? I mean, she is a pirate, first and foremost. But that's a discussion I don't have a very strong opinion on. I don't think it is necessarily sexist to highlight a woman's motherly and caring qualities, as long as that isn't done at the expense of her other abilities. And Nami has been shown to have many other abilities and usefulnesses in post-TS. Even then, the fighting side has suffered for her.

Of course I disagree with Nami being motherly as anti pirate. Pirating is being as free as you want and every pirate has their own way. I do feel this is a fair take overall tho.

[Greg]

The discussion since agreeing to that baseline has been pretty solid. Thank you all for agreeing to that and taking it to heart.

A good portion of it is beyond me bc it's a 'this is entertaining in my opinion' as opposed to a 'this is good compared to One Piece' discussion and I can sympathize with any side of in that case.

Though the Kalifa stuff is interesting. Anyone get Rashomon vibes? I don't remember fierce reactions back then.

[King Cannon]

People were mostly fine or indifferent with the Kalifa fight because it was a natural extension of the Doublefinger fight (more serious and more fanservice).

Nami vs. Ulti is a bit more controversial because it's been 15 years since Nami had an actual opponent, and it feels more like an extension of the Absalom joke fight.

[Deicide]

I did feel underwhelmed by the Kalifa fight at the time. It got steam near the end, when Nami figured out how Kalifa's power worked and the fight really began, but at that point Kalifa had wasted so much time toying with Nami…

Also, Kalifa never showed all her abilities. Not only Rokushiki was mostly forgotten save for a few moves, but Kalifa's spiked whip was completely absent. Nami's moves and finisher were pretty cool, but it felt like Kalifa was dumbed down too much for that fight.

About Ulti, I've already pointed out my opinion: this was not meant to be Nami's moment, but Zeus'. Nami will face her true challenge ahead before this arc is over.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I can see Nami getting another moment, but it's very possible it will not be a 1v1 fight. But rather something to highlight her thieving skills, or her intelligence, or her empathy. Similarly to what she got in WCI.

I'm also fully expecting Usopp to get a moment like that, even more than Nami, because the stuff he did against Ulti/P1 barely counts to me. But again, not a 1v1 fight, probably.

[puffing.cinema]

@ARTEMlS:

Just look at how especially some of the main baddies were treated back then.

Oh, I think I understand what you mean better, now. When you said "crazy DF powers" I pictured overwhelming techniques that didn't really made sense initially but that could be traced back to a power concept. But now I think that you are talking about how clever uses of the basic, simple power catches both the SHs and the reader by surprise. Like Enel manipulating gold and Crocodile's dryness and use of the environment. Did I get it right this time? If so, I do agree that Oda isn't doing that anymore and that it was a fun way to introduce DF abilities. Mr.1 cleaning a whole in the wall, Robin nullifying weapons framed as telekinetic powers, Crocodile drinking water through a rose, Ace changing the weather of Drum making it a day without snow while there…these are nice hints, but in battle they were played pretty straight forward. That's kinda why Luffy's way to overcome them most of the time is simply by enduring damage and punching stronger, that's what he does.

[Sibersk Esto]

I would say Brûlée and the forest matches that description. We were introduced to that power by a creepy evil Luffy and a lollipop sucking Sanji. No one had any clue what was going on at first.

[puffing.cinema]

yeah, and during battle all Brulee did was jump out of thrown mirrors and reflect -two- attack…i mean, her DF is quite useful and she was made essential to a lot of plot point during the arc, but it's far from an effective use that Nami/Luffy/Carrot/Chopper/Ceasar had to solve in order to beat her.

[Sibersk Esto]

Which relates more to Oda using DF powers to tie into the themes of the arc instead of set up puzzles for battles more post time skip

[puffing.cinema]

I'm failing to see how this diverges from what I was talking about

[Rean]

Another thing that came to mind is that the entire Nami thing came about because Oda had a problem he needed to solve: Why wouldn't a homie simply return to Linlin as soon as she threatens them?

Remember that homes getting scared of a Vivre card containing a tiny sliver of her soul was an actual plot point in WCI.

If you ask me though, Nami and Usopp aren't done yet in this arc, there's still plenty of fighting to go around, and I don't even mean Page One and Ulti, they are down in my book.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@Rean:

Another thing that came to mind is that the entire Nami thing came about because Oda had a problem he needed to solve: Why wouldn't a homie simply return to Linlin as soon as she threatens them?

Remember that homes getting scared of a Vivre card containing a tiny sliver of her soul was an actual plot point in WCI.

If you ask me though, Nami and Usopp aren't done yet in this arc, there's still plenty of fighting to go around, and I don't even mean Page One and Ulti, they are down in my book.

I mean why didn't Zeus return at the end of WCI instead of waiting for Wano?

I feel like Oda can come up with a million different ways to solve that issue, really, such as Nami just not running into BM. He picked the one that enabled the story he wanted to tell.

[Shiebs]

Greg do you think the Straw Hats will find a way to save Kuma? And if so what will happen to him, will he go back to the revolutionaries?

Also any chance of Vegapunk giving Kuma a new body? Or transferring his consciousness to a new body? One that doesn’t have like a thousand different identical clones of it?

[Monquito]

@Dorobō:

My big issue and takeaway from this Nami and Usopp thing is if they can't beat Ulti and Page One will anyone expect them to defeat their BB opponents who will be stronger? Will Zeus handle it? Will Usopp get a Zeus? Just seems like garbage if you give a shit about the fights in this series.

Never mind the issues this might make in this very same arc. Big Mom defeating Queen mostly for Sanji might as well happen now too.

I mean, Doc Q is not a Katakuri exactly, and Usopp vs Auger would/should be happening at long(very long)range so that both can showcase their best sniping skills.

At least those two fights aren't going to be all about the muscle.

And we're not even sure about Namo either. Devon's no longer looking fit for her, especially with Yamato around.

[wolfwood]

Van Auger seemed pretty spry when he met Ace and WB. But i'm sure Oda will find some way to properly cripple him enough that 'Sopp can take a whack at his still body

[Buggy D. Clown]

I think Yamamoto will fight the BB guy with horns. Pizzarro or something

BB vs Luffy
Shilieu vs Zoro
Laffitte vs Robin
Doc Q/Stronger vs Chopper
Pizzarro vs Yamamoto
SJ Wolf vs Jimbei
Devon vs Nami
Burgess vs Franky
Vasco vs Sanji
Augur vs Ussop

Not liking Jimbei vs SJ Wolf though…would like Chopper vs SJ Wolf

[SirCaesar]

@Buggy:

I think Yamamoto will fight the BB guy with horns. Pizzarro or something

BB vs Luffy
Shilieu vs Zoro
Laffitte vs Robin
Doc Q/Stronger vs Chopper
Pizzarro vs Yamamoto
SJ Wolf vs Jimbei
Devon vs Nami
Burgess vs Franky
Vasco vs Sanji
Augur vs Ussop

Not liking Jimbei vs SJ Wolf though…would like Chopper vs SJ Wolf

I'd swap these two, but yes

Vasco vs Jimbei
SJ Wolf vs Sanji

[Deicide]

My dream Blackbeard fights:

San Juan Wolf vs Thousand Sunny (sea battle with the entire crew; I just don't see SJW as a good 1v1 opponent)
Catarina Devon vs Boa Hancock (yeah, not giving up on that yet, but you can replace her with Yamato if you prefer it)
Basco Shot vs Jinbe
Laffite vs Brook
Avalo Pizarro vs Franky
??? vs Robin
Doc Q vs Chopper
??? vs Sanji
Van Augur vs Usopp
Ms. Bakkin & Weevil vs Nami & Zeus (I have the feeling that Weevil's purpose is to join BB crew. Actually, Weevil is just Ms. Bakkin's weapon, she's the real danger with her own DF powers)
Shiryuu vs Zoro
Blackbeard vs Luffy

Only ones I can't decide are Sanji's and Robin's.
The opponents are Jesus Burgess (who will certain get a DF, thus potentially changing his best possible opponent) and the currently unknown 10th Titan.
Personally, I think Burgess will get the Hie Hie no Mi from Aokiji (I feel that scene in the coliseum may be foreshadowing), but that also makes him a perfect counter to both Sanji (acrobatics + fire vs brawl + ice) or Robin (grappler vs grappler, plus avenging Aokiji).

[Shiebs]

If Avalo Pizzaro is indeed Kaido’s former King, then he will most certainly be fighting with Yamato

[ea77]

@Greg:

I think at least a portion of the stonewalling occurring on the 'there was no other way this fight could have ended' is coming from a source of hero-worship over Oda. There seems to be a mind-set that because Oda drew this outcome, there was no other possible outcome. It's assigning a deity-like level of infallibility to Oda's control of the story. To clarify, Oda does have deity-like control over the story. But I would argue that he does not have a deity-like level of infallibility in controlling the story. That what he constructed is incapable of having any other outcome, even when the series is viewed in a mirror. That's a problematic view of the series I hadn't even anticipated but it's obviously felt strongly by a portion of posters. That is to say, if Oda didn't depict a certain outcome, there is no other possible outcome that's possible. Some might suggest that's obvious but I don't think they're considering how not only limiting that view is, but also damaging to the series itself.

As creator, Oda has control of his characters and absolutely can do whatever he likes. We should all agree on this.

But simply because he can control them doesn't mean that how he utilizes them is always the most skillful, entertaining, appropriate, etc. manipulation of the characters.

If you've ever given criticism to the series, then you agree with that sentiment by default.

To suggest that because 'that's how he drew it' is thereby the perfect outcome, is sophomoric.

It may be the only outcome that he explored, but to suggest that it's the only possible outcome is giving Oda a level of inhuman perfection. If you have ever said you don't like how anything in the series was handled, you agree that options exist beyond what Oda explored. And I'm guessing that pretty much everyone has said at one point or another, "This is how it should've happened."

So anyone saying, "That's how it happened so there was no other possible outcome," is likely vocalizing an unhealthy hero worship.

If we can agree that other outcomes do exist (within realistic expectations bound by patterns in the series' history and Oda's pool of creative work) and that Oda simply didn't explore them, I think it's possible to continue with a productive discussion.

The anime handled Page One much better than this. Even though he got clowned on by Sanji there too, it was Sanji, not Ussop.

[Rean]

@Dragon:

I mean why didn't Zeus return at the end of WCI instead of waiting for Wano?

I feel like Oda can come up with a million different ways to solve that issue, really, such as Nami just not running into BM. He picked the one that enabled the story he wanted to tell.

If I had to guess, it's because Big Mom's arrival into Wano was an emergent decision that had effects on Oda's original ideas for the arc.

You can't have Big Mom coming back into the scene without having a mini Zeus arc imo. We may agree or disagree on how good said miniarc was, but it was necessary.