A mission where our :ninja: GREAT :ninja: 5th Hokage Tsunade gave to 5 kids, a recently made Chuunin and 4 Genin. What can i say? An Excellent decision!
But Orochimaru "kidnapped" their friend!!! Of course she had to pick them. :ninja:
A mission where our :ninja: GREAT :ninja: 5th Hokage Tsunade gave to 5 kids, a recently made Chuunin and 4 Genin. What can i say? An Excellent decision!
But Orochimaru "kidnapped" their friend!!! Of course she had to pick them. :ninja:
You know, back in the day the excuse might've made sense that they were hard pressed for soldiers, but in hindsight seeing how the sharingan is so incredibly tied to history and other secrets of unimaginable power along with giving Orochimaru exactly what he wants, Tsunade was pretty fucking stupid about that
Atsushi Wakabayashi directed and storyboarded and the key animators were Hiroyuki Yamashita, Shingo Yamashita, Norio Matsumoto, Tomoyuki Niho, and some others.
I most assuredly googled this.
thanks.. i have no idea who they are.. but it makes me feel easy knowing who worked on that episode.. :p
@Purple:
You know, back in the day the excuse might've made sense that they were hard pressed for soldiers, but in hindsight seeing how the sharingan is so incredibly tied to history and other secrets of unimaginable power along with giving Orochimaru exactly what he wants, Tsunade was pretty fucking stupid about that
No, it doesn't made sense either at that time. They had all veterans/adult ninja in missions(Example: Gai team), in the hospital(Kakachi) or defending the village(Those two guys that appear all the time and that even fought with ASuma against the Akatsuki. And people that Tsunade called "Important")(Where was Jiraya at that time?). Giving that their village, the biggest village and most powerful village in the story, wasn't defended by just 5 ninjas or a small amount like that. She could very well select some soldiers defending the village and put the kids in their places, it wasn't like they were expecting the village to be attacked at that time, and the enemies wouldn't know of the 5 new created week points of security just created, the places where the kids were placed, and it wasn't like those 5 weak points would be of any real relevance for the village to be unable to defend itself.
More, Sasuke was a traitor! He should be placed in the blacklist and not be retrieved. At least not by the Hokage! Do you think that if a general in an army discovers that a soldier betrayed them and is in his way to the enemy he will send people to retrieve him? The story would be simpler and better written if Sasuke/Naruto/Sakura friends would join together without nobody knowing and go trying to convince Sasuke to get back, before anybody of authority in the village even knew about his betrayal and leave(Giving that Sakura was the first to know about Sasuke betrayal, instead of staying all night sleeping and be found the other day by adult Ninjas, she should have went to Naruto and tell him about the situation. Than from there it would start Sasuke retrieval arc, with Sakura and Naruto going to talk to Shikamaru and the others for help in the secret mission of Sasuke retrieval). That is what normally would happen, and not sending 5 soldiers and certainly not noobs to retrieve a traitor that is also just a noob and that is going to meet a S rank criminal with an army. And she even treated the situation like it was an emergency.
To make things even worse. Orochimaru and his village/army were in the blacklist and he was considered the worse enemy of the Konoha village. The first priority to kill guy. They had a super mega huge hint to how to find him, they just needed to follow Sasuke and the guys that would met him, and they would find that information. She could very well gather some good Ninjas that were defending the village(and use the kids in their position card), send a message to every ninja that was returning from their missions(Shizune and Gai teams were just returning, and certainly a lot more) to go meet with them as soon as possible and just do what Ninjas are good at, track somebody without being noticed and when the time is right, enter into assassination mode, and kill Orochimaru, Kabuto and all the other goons, but instead she just wants to retrieve Sasuke before he gets to Orochimaru, the last Uchiha boy that she doesn't really know about and that just betrayed them. And Tsunade says this isn't the first time stuff likes this happens! But that is the way she handles things.
I don't even know if I'm facepalming or praying for salvation anymore!
No, it doesn't made sense either at that time. They had all veterans/adult ninja in missions(Example: Gai team), in the hospital(Kakachi) or defending the village(The guy with the scars)(Where was Jiraya at that time?). Giving that their village, the biggest village and most powerful village in the story, wasn't defended by just 5 ninjas or a small amount like that. She could very well select some soldiers defending the village and put the kids in their places, it wasn't like they were expecting the village to be attacked at that time, and the enemies wouldn't know of the 5 new created week points of security just created, the places where the kids were placed, and it wasn't like those 5 weak points would be of any real relevance for the village to be unable to defend itself.
More, Sasuke was a traitor! He should be placed in the blacklist and not be retrieved. At least not by the Hokage! Do you think that if a general in an army discovers that a soldier betrayed them and is in his way to the enemy he will send people to retrieve him? The story would be simpler and better written if Sasuke/Naruto/Sakura friends would join together without nobody knowing and go trying to convince Sasuke to get back, before anybody of authority in the village even knew about his betrayal and leave(Giving that Sakura was the first to know about Sasuke betrayal, instead of staying all night crying like a **** and be found the other day by adult Ninjas, she should have went to Naruto and tell him about the situation. Than from there it would start Sasuke retrieval arc, with Sakura and Naruto going to talk to Shikamaru and the others for help in the secret mission of Sasuke retrieval). That is what normally would happen, and not sending 5 soldiers and certainly not noobs to retrieve a traitor that is also just a noob and that is going to meet a S rank criminal with an army. And she even treated the situation like it was an emergency. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg
To make things even worse. Orochimaru and his village/army were in the blacklist and he was considered the worse enemy of the Konoha village. The first priority to kill guy. They had a super mega huge hint to how to find him, they just needed to follow Sasuke and the guys that would met him, and they would find that information. She could very well gather some good Ninjas that were defending the village(and use the kids in their position card), send a message to every ninja that was returning from their missions(Shizune and Gai teams were just returning, and certainly a lot more) to go meet with them as soon as possible and just do what Ninjas are good at, track somebody without being noticed and when the time is right, enter into assassination mode, and kill Orochimaru, Kabuto and all the other goons, but instead she just wants to retrieve Sasuke before he gets to Orochimaru, the last Uchiha boy that she doesn't really know about and that just betrayed them.
http://redpillpushers.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/jesus-facepalm.jpg
It kinda does make sense though because of the shaky politics between nations. Would you prefer to send your elites on missions to protect the village from the other villages or send them after some snot nosed jerk who's going through a phase?
Although Tsunade obviously lived through the Uchiha discrimination so she should've known about the dangers the Uchiha clan pose
@Purple:
Naruto has an okay adaption all things considered only impeded by the lack of actually stopping when it's a good idea. I mean how would you feel if you had to draw Sasuke's face day in and day out and weren't Kishi?
waitin for the NEW CHAPTER OF NARUTO.
ME AND THERESA EGARLE WANT TO SEE OBITO AND KAKASHI FIGTH KAGRA.
COME ON LETS GO KAKI. SHOW ME YOUR SUSNA.
@Purple:
It kinda does make sense though because of the shaky politics between nations. Would you prefer to send your elites on missions to protect the village from the other villages or send them after some snot nosed jerk who's going through a phase?
Although Tsunade obviously lived through the Uchiha discrimination so she should've known about the dangers the Uchiha clan pose
What village politics? The sound village had just attacked the Leaf Village and killed the equivalent of president or King of their village! They just weren't in open war, but there wasn't any politics involved at all. And the sound village was just a poor and small ninja village. Why should she have problem of attacking the leader of the village? The leader that not only just attached, but is right now trying to steal something important of the village.
She didn't even sent her elites! And why should she have to send people with such urgency after Sasuke? At the end Orochimaru got Sasuke and than … 2 years and a half passed and nothing, it didn't look like after that event she was in a worry at all. And than she had an hint again and she sent who? A just at the moment formed team with one Genin, one Chuunin, one Anbu and one Anbu Root. And again the mission was to retrieve Sasuke. What was the problem now? Didn't she had more people again? Now killing Orochimaru would be worse than Retrieving Sasuke? Because they were again at the same place and just the fact of retrieving him would most certainly cause a war, or at least a battle, between the two villages, or did she really thought that she would take Sasuke back and Orochimaru wouldn't do anything about that?
Ah, and she sent to that missions the person with the Nine Tails. Keeping the Nine Tails was more important than the sharingan, at that time. Now we know that everything circles around the sharingan, and should be protected, but she still sent him into a suicide mission, and it was by recommendation. She recommended that a Genin with the Nine Tails went with them in a suicide mission.
What village politics? The sound village had just attached the Leaf Village! They just weren't in open war, but there wasn't any politics involved at all. And the sound village was just a poor and small ninja village. Why should she have problem of attacking the leader of the village? The leader that not only just attached, but is right now trying to steal something important of the village.
She didn't even sent her elites! And why should she have to send people with such urgency after Sasuke? At the end Orochimaru got Sasuke and than … 2 years and a half passed and nothing, it didn't look like after that event she was in a worry at all. And than she had an hint again and she sent who? A just at the moment made formed team with one Genin, one Chuunin, one Anbu and one Anbu Root. And again the mission was to retrieve Sasuke. What was the problem now? Didn't she had more people again? Now killing Orochimaru would be worse than Retrieving Sasuke? Because they were again at the same place and just the fact of retrieving him would most certainly cause a war, or at least a battle, between the two villages, or did she really thought that she would take Sasuke back and Orochimaru wouldn't do anything about that?
Well they just had a threat from the Sand village, we have documented tension between the cloud village and the leaf village with the Hyuga clan, the Mist village is pretty shady as has been laid out in the zabuza arc, and who gives a shit about the rock village. Sure Oro had the sound village and is a big threat but you have to contend with the established threats first.
At least that's the theory before Kishimoto utterly destroyed the logic behind it as the series progressed
Sorry, but they were! They were always together when making pranks and they played at the park together!
No, they really weren't. Sitting next to another classmate in school, sleeping in class, and skipping out on class does not equate to friendship.
[hide][/hide]Notice how in none of these instances is it shown Naruto talking or interacting with either Shikamaru, Choji, or Kiba. They all just happened to be troublemakers and the one thing they had a common was getting in trouble. Not making long lasting friendships. That flashback was not being used to show, 'Oh, look how many friends Naruto had.' That flashback was used to show Naruto's hard time with concentration by showing how much trouble he got to in school. He just happened to not be the only troublemaker in that school which makes perfect sense.
As for the playground scene, once again…
[hide][/hide]Who is he playing with? These are not flashbacks of a kid who has made a few friends. These are flashbacks of a kid who gets in trouble to gain any sort of attention. These are flashbacks of a kid who runs around on the playground where other kids naturally hang out, but no one is actually playing with him. Even if you wish to interpret these panels as bonds of friendship, if you read the entire flashbacks in their full context they're clearly not conveying the message, 'Oh, look he really is friends with these guys!' Nope, the playground scene was to show how lonely Naruto was and in fact he could relate to Sasuke more than he could with any of the other kids.
Yes, that same Sasuke you say he only argued with? That was the foundation for their whole friendship and it was made pretty evident. Their rivalry. Friendship through rivalry. A common enough trope in manga. The Zabuza Arc wasn't just as you said, "good cooperation". After Iruka…
[hide][/hide]the second person to risk their life for Naruto was none other than Sasuke…
[hide][/hide]That's more than just "good cooperation". That's a life changing moment. A bond. More than Naruto shared with any other kid his age, ever, up to that point. How do you think that would make Naruto feel? The boy who was literally hated for no reason? Before Sasuke no other kid, someone he can relate to, risked their life for him. No other kid acknowledged him. (barring Hinata who Naruto avoids like the plague)
[hide][/hide]Compare the moments shared between Naruto, Shikamaru, Kiba, and Choji with the moments Naruto shared with Sasuke. It is very clear that up to the Sasuke retreival arc Sasuke was the closest thing Naruto could ever call a friend, or a brother.
[hide][/hide]
No, the mission against Zabuza was definitely an S ranked mission!
Yes, I got that.
If by mission in Orochimaru invansion you're talking of going after Gaara and stopping him than, at that time they were in state of War and emergency, that was an internal affair mission given by Kakachi a ninja that doesn't have the power to make that kind of decision. So basically it was an ad hoc mission and so it wasn't ranked nor even considered an official mission!
I'm not talking about whether the mission was official or not. I'm referring to the difficulties of the missions they were sent on. The mission Kakashi sent the team on was definitely "A" rank difficulty.
@Purple:
Well they just had a threat from the Sand village, we have documented tension between the cloud village and the leaf village with the Hyuga clan, the Mist village is pretty shady as has been laid out in the zabuza arc, and who gives a shit about the rock village. Sure Oro had the sound village and is a big threat but you have to contend with the established threats first.
At least that's the theory before Kishimoto utterly destroyed the logic behind it as the series progressed
And what about those threat impede Konoha to act against Orochimaru? I don't really understand what you're trying to say? The village was protected! Orochimaru was the biggest criminal to the village that had even killed the 3rd Hokage, and he showed them a route to get him, Sasuke. And you're saying that they couldn't act against him because other villages were dangerous?
Sand Village is a threat, but at the same time you ask for help to the Sand village, basically saying that they can't handle that simple problem, retrieve someone themselves, and so implying that they are full with stuff. You're implying that going secretly assassinate someone is worse than ask for help to the village that is a threat?
What tension from the cloud village with the Hyuga clan? The Hyuga clan and the Leaf Village basically were fucked in the butt and they even adjusted it to be more comfortable for the Cloud Village to pound them. And that situation was when Neji was a kid, that probably wasn't even in the school.
Mist village is shady? What has that to do with anything? Zabuza was a missing nin that didn't liked how stuff in the village was being handled, stuff that wasn't never really showed, it was only later said that their Kage was being controlled and it was really cold.
Orochimaru wasn't just a big threat, he was the number 1 Konoha enemy at that time! Did you forgot that he killed the 3rd hokage? And I believe that even before he had killed the 3rd he was already one of the ones in the top of the anbu list of man to kill(wasn't that said when they found that he was in the Chuunin exam? I believe so).
And what about the established threats? I'm talking of a mission to assassinate Orochimaru. I'm not talking of moving a big army and make a war(something that Konoha could very well do).
This seems the same weak argument for why the Uchiha genocide made sense. There were a lot possible ways to resolve the situation without genocide, but because there were the threats of others villages, the genocide was the only way. What about the threat of the others villages remove all the other possibilities of ending a coup d'etat? Nothing, but it seems that saying "other villages threat" is the magical word for justifying horrible decisions.
Tsunade's decision to send a bunch of Genin on such a dangerous mission was folly in hindsight, but if I read this correctly it's because the village really was running low on man power.
[hide][/hide]Sasuke escaping the village happened after Tsunade had already sent most of the elite ninja out of the village to fulfill missions in order to show the rest of the countries that Konoha wasn't falling back on its obligations or strength. The rest of the top tier ninja who were the very minority of course had to stay and guard/or do their duties in the village in case another nation took bold action and attacked a weakened Konoha, so Tsunade decided some Genin could chase down a fellow Genin.
Could she have spared 5 Chunin or 5 Jounin? Most definitely, and that would have been the smart thing to do but let's be honest. Those no names schmucks were probably weaker than the people Shikamaru gathered just on the virtue on them not being main characters. Yes, it's dumb but the Jounin and Chunin in Konoha have always served mostly as fodder if they didn't have a name.
No, they really weren't. Sitting next to another classmate in school, sleeping in class, and skipping out on class does not equate to friendship.
[hide]http://i60.tinypic.com/erahc0.png[/hide]Notice how in none of these instances is it shown Naruto talking or interacting with either Shikamaru, Choji, or Kiba. They all just happened to be troublemakers and the one thing they had a common was getting in trouble. Not making long lasting friendships. That flashback was not being used to show, 'Oh, look how many friends Naruto had.' That flashback was used to show Naruto's hard time with concentration by showing how much trouble he got to in school. He just happened to not be the only troublemaker in that school which makes perfect sense.As for the playground scene, once again…
[hide]http://i62.tinypic.com/2rhwaaa.png[/hide]Who is he playing with? These are not flashbacks of a kid who has made a few friends. These are flashbacks of a kid who gets in trouble to gain any sort of attention. These are flashbacks of a kid who runs around on the playground where other kids naturally hang out, but no one is actually playing with him. Even if you wish to interpret these panels as bonds of friendship, if you read the entire flashbacks in their full context they're clearly not conveying the message, 'Oh, look he really is friends with these guys!' Nope, the playground scene was to show how lonely Naruto was and in fact he could relate to Sasuke more than he could with any of the other kids.
Yes, that same Sasuke you say he only argued with? That was the foundation for their whole friendship and it was made pretty evident. Their rivalry. Friendship through rivalry. A common enough trope in manga. The Zabuza Arc wasn't just as you said, "good cooperation". After Iruka…
[hide]http://i58.tinypic.com/vypemc.jpg[/hide]the second person to risk their life for Naruto was none other than Sasuke…
[hide]http://i61.tinypic.com/2exlie8.jpg[/hide]That's more than just "good cooperation". That's a life changing moment. A bond. More than Naruto shared with any other kid his age, ever, up to that point. How do you think that would make Naruto feel? The boy who was literally hated for no reason? Before Sasuke no other kid, someone he can relate to, risked their life for him. No other kid acknowledged him. (barring Hinata who Naruto avoids like the plague)[hide]http://i58.tinypic.com/vq38k2.png[/hide]Compare the moments shared between Naruto, Shikamaru, Kiba, and Choji with the moments Naruto shared with Sasuke. It is very clear that up to the Sasuke retreival arc Sasuke was the closest thing Naruto could ever call a friend, or a brother.
[hide]http://i62.tinypic.com/os97de.jpg[/hide]Yes, I got that.
I'm not talking about whether the mission was official or not. I'm referring to the difficulties of the missions they were sent on. The mission Kakashi sent the team on was definitely "A" rank difficulty.
Remembering stuff from the anime sometimes does this things! So Naruto didn't really had any connection with Shikamaru, Chouji and Kiba. Hmm interesting.
But still don't forget that by the Chuunin exam he had already made friendship with all Konoha 11, so no, Sasuke wasn't his only friend by the shippuden nor by his retrieval! Given the way of their friendship, friendship by rivalry, and given how badly they got separated in the retrieval arc and that it took at least 2,5 years after that for them to meet again, it doesn't make sense that it is treated like Sasuke is his only friend. Hell, I wouldn't even call the way Naruto treats Sasuke as friendship, it seems more like he is obsessed by Sasuke. It seems like he is a stalker, seriously.
The thing about you're not talking about whether the mission was official or not has to do with the argument being made. The argument was that the mission system was not handle correctly by Kishimoto. That was an ad hoc mission, basically an exception, it had nothing to do with the mission system made by Kishimoto, the same as any other mission after that, they all had nothing to do with the already established mission system. His obviously that after the Chuunin Exam it was thrown out the window, and with it also the Ninja hierarchy System.
Well, I can't argue how the relationship has turned out to be since Shippuden. It's an abusive one if any.
Tsunade's decision to send a bunch of Genin on such a dangerous mission was folly in hindsight, but if I read this correctly it's because the village really was running low on man power.
[hide]http://i61.tinypic.com/30sknjt.png[/hide]Sasuke escaping the village happened after Tsunade had already sent most of the elite ninja out of the village to fulfill missions in order to show the rest of the countries that Konoha wasn't falling back on its obligations or strength. The rest of the top tier ninja who were the very minority of course had to stay and guard/or do their duties in the village in case another nation took bold action and attacked a weakened Konoha, so Tsunade decided some Genin could chase down a fellow Genin.
Could she have spared 5 Chunin or 5 Jounin? Most definitely, and that would have been the smart thing to do but let's be honest. Those no names schmucks were probably weaker than the people Shikamaru gathered just on the virtue on them not being main characters. Yes, it's dumb but the Jounin and Chunin in Konoha have always served mostly as fodder if they didn't have a name.
Your last paragraph makes everything that you said above be invalid and you even give another problem of the series, problem that it appears in a lot of series, specially shonen battle manga, but still problem.
If she could spared some Chunin and Jounin than her decision of instead sending kids to retrieve Sasuke, that she knew would have a high probability of being with Orochimaru goons , was super retarded.
This is shown in just the page before of that you just showed [hide][/hide]
The problem that you talked about in the last paragraph is the one of unnamed characters and not being an important character in comparison. Even if they are supposedly more important characters, because they don't have a name or because in the story they aren't as important as other characters than they are just fodder, incompetent, or unable to achieve what they supposed should be able to achieve.
What make me angry about this problem is that is a problem made by the own author of the story, he gives to much value to a person, but than he removes it because the main characters should be the ones doing it. In shonen it appears a lot because the author make the character just kids starting to learn things, but than he want to throw them into super important and urgent situations that normally needs somebody competent, but he had also made adult and/or more competent characters before and that should be available at that moment. With that it his complicated to find a way to make those adult/more competent characters to not be available. Some of the titles try a little, but others just don' care.
This happens with Naruto, Bleach, Soul Eater, …, and last but not the least horrible, Fairy Tail. I don't remember this ever happening with One Piece and I believe Oda makes sure to not make those mistakes.
If the author wanted to use the main characters in the retrieval, even though they were just kids with rank Chuunin and Genin, than he should have found a better way than just saying, our village has no more manpower right now. Seriously! It is just a lazy excuse that he knew that everybody would eat it up, because there were more important things at stake in that arc.
Hindsight is 20/20. If the Genin managed to retrieve Sasuke, which they nearly did, Tsunade's order would have been very wise as she successfully used the bare minimum to complete the mission without taking away from the security of the Village. She could have spared some Jounin or Chunin but she didn't know that the village wasn't going to be attacked again.
Looking back at those chapters the Jounin weren't actually that much of a push over. 2 of them forced all 5 sound ninjas to immediately go to Curse Seal Mode in order to win.
Yeah my whole point is that hindsight is 20/20. Nobody knew what Orochimaru had in mind but we all knew that the rest of the villages were threats to Konoha. All we know is that he's scheming something, but the villages are always looking for something to give them an advantage.
Like seriously, Tsunade lays it all pretty clearly when they start their mission that they're low on man power trying to get their infrastructure back up after the sand hits them hard.
Hindsight is 20/20. If the Genin managed to retrieve Sasuke, which they nearly did, Tsunade's order would have been very wise as she successfully used the bare minimum to complete the mission without taking away from the security of the Village. She could have spared some Jounin or Chunin but she didn't know that the village wasn't going to be attacked again.
Looking back at those chapters the Jounin weren't actually that much of a push over. 2 of them forced all 5 sound ninjas to immediately go to Curse Seal Mode in order to win.
They almost all died! And she needed to call for the Sand Village help and later for Kakachi and Medical Ninjas! And they failed the mission!
The argument of if they did succeed she would have used the bare minimum of her resources is not a good thing at all! We're talking of gambles here. A mission is a gamble, and the leader of the village is responsible of managing them, of guaranteeing that she gets the best odds as possible having in count the particularities of the situation, not that she risks everything like crazy. Is like you're saying that going to the roulette in a casino and bet all your salary in one play, I believe 0 is the biggest play, would be a very wise decision because you almost won and because you used the bare minimum resources(just one play) to complete the mission of becoming a millionaire. Here were're forgetting of the probabilities of succeeding and the fact that loosing would bring high consequences.
Tsunade risked a huge lot, just to capture Sasuke, it was everything but a very wise decision.
You all talk about the security of the village and the threat of other villages attack, but did you noticed the scale of things that we're talking here? We're talking of two things! We're talking of a City(in the minimum hundred of thousand of people) and of a small group of people(5,10,20 people). Removing a small group of people is negligible to the City. A hundred of thousand of people minus a dozen of people is still a Hundred of thousand of people! Doesn't that compute with you? And it was only for a short amount of time, the time until Sasuke crosses the border. Believing that other villages would know about that mission and that they would attack in that span of time and that the fact of those missing ninjas would affect the end result of that battle is pure Lunacy.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Purple:
Yeah my whole point is that hindsight is 20/20. Nobody knew what Orochimaru had in mind but we all knew that the rest of the villages were threats to Konoha. All we know is that he's scheming something, but the villages are always looking for something to give them an advantage.
Like seriously, Tsunade lays it all pretty clearly when they start their mission that they're low on man power trying to get their infrastructure back up after the sand hits them hard.
The villages were always threats to Konoha, so I guess we should always send the most unprepared people to mission and have the competent people in the village right?
How in the hell is an handful less number of people any kind of advantage? Damn, are we talking of a group with one hundred people, that in a crisis situation can't go away with a dozen of their competent men, or are we talking of the Konoha Village that has a lot of ninja clans and a lot of other ninjas without clans, and that has a huge territory to protect?
If such a thing as Konoha village in the middle of a fucking war, couldn't even spare 10-20 competent soldiers to do a specialized mission, meaning if they don't have any kind of flexibility, than they are fucking fucked from the very beginning. How is that even hard to understand?
No, the mission against Zabuza was definitely an S ranked mission!
It began as C ranked mission and was later considered to be B or even A by Kakashi. Actually at that point in the story we were only introduced to A to D.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-14-8/naruto/chapter-9.html
Therefore, Kakashi upgraded it to be potentially a mission of the highest caliber known to us at that point. But of course, you are right that this definitely is not a mission for Genin to participate as pointed out by the explanation given in chapter 9.
The villages were always threats to Konoha, so I guess we should always send the most unprepared people to mission and have the competent people in the village right?
How in the hell is an handful less number of people any kind of advantage? Damn, are we talking of a group with one hundred people, that in a crisis situation can't go away with a dozen of their competent men, or are we talking of the Konoha Village that has a lot of ninja clans and a lot of other ninjas without clans, and that has a huge territory to protect?
If such a thing as Konoha village in the middle of a fucking war, couldn't even spare 10-20 competent soldiers to do a specialized mission, meaning if they don't have any kind of flexibility, than they are fucking fucked from the very beginning. How is that even hard to understand?
Well first of all, in theory you wouldn't need to send jonin to deal with these scrubs. In fact I think when the arc came out it was established that there were only a handful of jonin, some in charge of teams of genin (and having a low amount is understandable given that they are elites). So the solution is chuunin. You've got the newly minted shikamaru heading the team and two guys who impressed the crowd and were heavily considered for chuunin rank, and it's not a bad idea to fill the team with other subordinates. At the time if you look at the team it's actually a pretty good team make up, and they even got support from rock lee and the sand siblings (although that's kinda sketchy considering they're the threat you should be watching out for). Like the chuunin are supposed to be competent soldiers and it seemed like the team composition could do the job considering the mission
Really the best thing about part 1 villains was that the villains had a mysterious air to them (pretty good considering we were playing actual ninjas back then). What the fuck is up with itachi? Why is akatsuki collecting tailed beasts? Why did oro have a falling out with them? What would oro would do with every tech? As far as we knew, the most the sharingan could do was upgrade to mangekyo, and oro was temporarily knocked out of the picture by sarutobi. Sure the sharingan is a village secret like the byakugan when its relevance was limited to a multidimensional rabbit goddess, but the factors at the time implied that while getting sasuke back is important, the team and backup seemed sufficient to do the job (and it was up to the actual get sasuke back part)
Now, when you frame it as the last of a clan that had faced discrimination since the beginning of the village whose founder and other members were known to have the ability to control the nine tailed fox and other broken techs, well you'd probably divert more resources to that project
@Purple:
Well first of all, in theory you wouldn't need to send jonin to deal with these scrubs. In fact I think when the arc came out it was established that there were only a handful of jonin, some in charge of teams of genin (and having a low amount is understandable given that they are elites). So the solution is chuunin. You've got the newly minted shikamaru heading the team and two guys who impressed the crowd and were heavily considered for chuunin rank, and it's not a bad idea to fill the team with other subordinates. At the time if you look at the team it's actually a pretty good team make up, and they even got support from rock lee and the sand siblings (although that's kinda sketchy considering they're the threat you should be watching out for). Like the chuunin are supposed to be competent soldiers and it seemed like the team composition could do the job considering the mission
Really the best thing about part 1 villains was that the villains had a mysterious air to them (pretty good considering we were playing actual ninjas back then). What the fuck is up with itachi? Why is akatsuki collecting tailed beasts? Why did oro have a falling out with them? What would oro would do with every tech? As far as we knew, the most the sharingan could do was upgrade to mangekyo, and oro was temporarily knocked out of the picture by sarutobi. Sure the sharingan is a village secret like the byakugan when its relevance was limited to a multidimensional rabbit goddess, but the factors at the time implied that while getting sasuke back is important, the team and backup seemed sufficient to do the job (and it was up to the actual get sasuke back part)
Now, when you frame it as the last of a clan that had faced discrimination since the beginning of the village whose founder and other members were known to have the ability to control the nine tailed fox and other broken techs, well you'd probably divert more resources to that project
No, it wasn't an handful of Jounin! Compared with the rest of the ranks they were the elite and so less than the rest, but there was Jounin making as teachers, there were Jounin in the Anbu and Jounin taking normal missions(example Shizune, all the guys in her team, Shikamaru father, Chouji father, Shino father, Ino father, Hinata father and a lot more).
First, They didn't knew who they would found with Sasuke, the only thing that they knew was that the probability of Orochimaru sending someone was high, also it is best to think of the worst case scenario and think that Orochimaru would send somebody strong.
Second, Those guys were able to handle anbu guys, and even two Jonin later. In theory they would really need to send Jonin to deal with them!
Even if there were only Chuunin, Shikamaru was just a recent one, so he didn't really should be sent to a mission like that, and certainly not as captain, and certainly not commanding Genin. It doesn't really matter if those Genin impressed the crowd or not. They were still amateurs and Genin for a reason.
The team was anything has a good team make up. Shikamaru that was just recently made Chuunin, Chouji that lost against a sound ninja in the preliminaries, Kiba that lost against Naruto in the preliminaries, Neji that lost against Naruto in the preliminaries and Naruto that has the ten-tails seal and worse of all things they never formed anything close to a team together before that situation, so basically a rushed up team joined at the last minute. If that is a good team make up than I guess the only bad team make up possible would be Konohamaru and his friends.
People just thought of them as a good team because they were the main characters, characters that readers were fans of. That is the same thing that happens all the time in Fairy Tail where everything is resolved by Natsu even thought it shouldn't, but his fans are always happy and forget basic reasoning, because they are fawning all over him and everything he does.
Basically at that time people were like: Wow Shikamaru is so cool and now is the leader of a team and a chuunin, so cool. Wow, Neji the genius is here as well, so cool. Naruto our main character is here to safe his best/only friend, so cool. Chouji and Kiba are cool as well, so cool.
Rock Lee had a fractured leg that until recently probably wouldn't even be possible to cure. I don't remember if he was sent by Tsunade or not, but if he was than this is one more thing to add to her horrible decisions.
When you say "the Chuunin are supposed to be competent" you definitely aren't talking of the guy that just now turned into one right? And are you supposing that Chuunin are so competent that they will be able to handle Orochimaru people? Are we assuming that Orochimaru was so stupid that he would sent Chuunin level people to get a guy that important to his plans? Or are we assuming that Tsunade thinking that Orochimaru was that stupid is wise?
Oro was so much knocked out of the picture that he almost killed Tsunade(ah, it was Kabuto. Oh, Yeah Tsunade was that bad) and he was able to summoning Manda. Ah, and he had a entire village of ninja, that attacked not that long ago their village, with the help of the Sand, but nonetheless. And would be the perfect opportunity to kill him at the time that he is "knocked out"? Why wait until he gets better?
I don't understand why is it logic and normal for the village of Konoha to treat Orochimaru in such a defensive manner when he had killed a lot of people from their village, sent an all out attack against them, killed the ninja with biggest authority in their village and at that time he was taking away a supposedly "important" person from their village. Is something missing me? Are they pussies or some kind of super idealistic pacifists? And I thought they were professional assassins. Maybe I confused the series.
No, it wasn't an handful of Jounin! Compared with the rest of the ranks they were the elite and so less than the rest, but there was Jounin making as teachers, there were Jounin in the Anbu and Jounin taking normal missions(example Shizune, all the guys in her team, Shikamaru father, Chouji father, Shino father, Ino father, Hinata father and a lot more).
First, They didn't knew who they would found with Sasuke, the only thing that they knew was that the probability of Orochimaru sending someone was high, also it is best to think of the worst case scenario and think that Orochimaru would send somebody strong.
Second, Those guys were able to handle anbu guys, and even two Jonin later. In theory they would really need to send Jonin to deal with them!Even if there were only Chuunin, Shikamaru was just a recent one, so he didn't really should be sent to a mission like that, and certainly not as captain, and certainly not commanding Genin. It doesn't really matter if those Genin impressed the crowd or not. They were still amateurs and Genin for a reason.
The team was anything has a good team make up. Shikamaru that was just recently made Chuunin, Chouji that lost against a sound ninja in the preliminaries, Kiba that lost against Naruto in the preliminaries, Neji that lost against Naruto in the preliminaries and Naruto that has the ten-tails seal and worse of all things they never formed anything close to a team together before that situation, so basically a rushed up team joined at the last minute. If that is a good team make up than I guess the only bad team make up possible would be Konohamaru and his friends.
People just thought of them as a good team because they were the main characters, characters that readers were fans of. That is the same thing that happens all the time in Fairy Tail where everything is resolved by Natsu even thought it shouldn't, but his fans are always happy and forget basic reasoning, because they are fawning all over him and everything he does.
Basically at that time people were like: Wow Shikamaru is so cool and now is the leader of a team and a chuunin, so cool. Wow, Neji the genius is here as well, so cool. Naruto our main character is here to safe his best/only friend, so cool. Chouji and Kiba are cool as well, so cool.Rock Lee had a fractured leg that until recently probably wouldn't even be possible to cure. I don't remember if he was sent by Tsunade or not, but if he was than this is one more thing to add to her horrible decisions.
When you say "the Chuunin are supposed to be competent" you definitely aren't talking of the guy that just now turned into one right? And are you supposing that Chuunin are so competent that they will be able to handle Orochimaru people? Are we assuming that Orochimaru was so stupid that he would sent Chuunin level people to get a guy that important to his plans? Or are we assuming that Tsunade thinking that Orochimaru was that stupid is wise?
Oro was so much knocked out of the picture that he almost killed Tsunade(ah, it was Kabuto. Oh, Yeah Tsunade was that bad) and he was able to summoning Manda. Ah, and he had a entire village of ninja, that attacked not that long ago their village, with the help of the Sand, but nonetheless.
I don't understand why is it logic and normal for the village of Konoha to treat Orochimaru in such a defensive manner when he had killed a lot of people from their village, sent an all out attack against them, killed the ninja with biggest authority in their village and at that time he was taking away a supposedly "important" person from their village. Is something missing me? Are they pussies or some kind of super idealistic pacifists? And I thought they were professional assassins. Maybe I confused the series.
In any organization, even if they're new to the rank, ideally you don't promote them unless they have the qualifications. It's not about how "cool" shikamaru was more than that he showed that he's qualified to be a chuunin. In the end they even sent reinforcements and it took care of most of the job. Being new really isn't a good excuse when he's already proven during the invasion and during the exams that he knows his shit. And like I said, even if kiba and choji didn't make it into the tourney section, having subordinates that are capable can be good as well. Not everyone needs to be elite, and even amongst the genin these five are top notch in konoha.
Like seriously you mentioned anbu as part of the jonin but you're not going to just send some if your highest ranking AND classified guys to hunt a genin defector. Some teachers, some regulars, but the amount will always be lower than the amount of chuunin unless something is wrong with the system. They just got a new hokage who was outside the village for a long time and their infrastructure is in shambles due to the invasion. That sounds like more of an investment to make than some snot nosed brat.
And yes, orochimaru is pretty much out of the picture. That was the whole basis of the time skip along with the body transfer deal. Summoning manda doesn't mean shit to oro if he can't even use regular jutsu that he desires. He's not going to charge in again like he did during the exams because that's suicide so his threat to the village really isn't that big compared to established threats. Assuming that tsunade's reasoning is correct and their manpower really is stretched thin, orochimaru should be a consideration but not one that outweighs the other villages
@Bigivel: Point is Tsunade was working with what she thought best in a time of crisis. No one is arguing that the decision she made was the best possible decision she could have made. In fact we've already stated that looking back on the mission it should have been handled differently. It's just that we have that advantage of hindsight.
Looking at it from Tsunade's in-the-moment perspective though we knew most of the elites were off doing missions and the rest of the elites had to stay and do their duties in the village. Tsunade specifically said this so Shikamaru would have to pick out some Genin and Kishi specifically made this point so us, the readers, would know why any elites weren't being sent and instead the main characters had to go. From Kishi's perspective it was an apt excuse to get the main characters involved and allow breathing room for the possibility for Sasuke's successful escape because that was Kishi's plan. If Kishi made Tsunade send a bunch of Jounin after Sasuke he would not have been able to take his story in the direction he wanted it to go at that point (which in hindsight, lol, would have probably been a good thing).
I will tell you this. I do agree with your earlier idea that the Genin should have done this mission secretly under the fear that Tsunade, a new Hokage who was not so well acquainted with Sasuke, might possibly have sent a team out to hunt down and kill Sasuke. Sakura could have recovered on her own and told Naruto about Sasuke's departure and then Naruto could have proceeded to secretly gather a crew to track down Sasuke without informing the higher ups. That would have made an even better excuse for Konoha not pouring more resources into Sasuke's running away. The excuse of ignorance.
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@Purple:
Like seriously you mentioned anbu as part of the jonin but you're not going to just send some if your highest ranking AND classified guys to hunt a genin defector. Some teachers, some regulars, but the amount will always be lower than the amount of chuunin unless something is wrong with the system. They just got a new hokage who was outside the village for a long time and their infrastructure is in shambles due to the invasion. That sounds like more of an investment to make than some snot nosed brat.
And yes, orochimaru is pretty much out of the picture. That was the whole basis of the time skip along with the body transfer deal. Summoning manda doesn't mean shit to oro if he can't even use regular jutsu that he desires. He's not going to charge in again like he did during the exams because that's suicide so his threat to the village really isn't that big compared to established threats. Assuming that tsunade's reasoning is correct and their manpower really is stretched thin, orochimaru should be a consideration but not one that outweighs the other villages
This is also another good point. Orochimaru at that time didn't pose as much of a threat to Konoha as the other villages did, so Tsunade wasn't going to use the few elite resources she had left to chase down a Genin defector.
@Purple:
In any organization, even if they're new to the rank, ideally you don't promote them unless they have the qualifications. It's not about how "cool" shikamaru was more than that he showed that he's qualified to be a chuunin. In the end they even sent reinforcements and it took care of most of the job. Being new really isn't a good excuse when he's already proven during the invasion and during the exams that he knows his shit. And like I said, even if kiba and choji didn't make it into the tourney section, having subordinates that are capable can be good as well. Not everyone needs to be elite, and even amongst the genin these five are top notch in konoha.
No, in an organization people that are just promoted, like Shikamaru, will not start by doing crucial jobs. You might dream that you end the university and go work in something really important in the organization you got in from the get go, but that is totally false. Something important is called experience and certification of competence, two things that Shikamaru didn't had! You can lie to yourself and think that he had, be he didn't!
Shikamaru didn't proved anything during the invasion nor the exams. In the exams he gave up in the middle or are you forgetting about it? Or are you saying that because he said that he had a crazy amount of possibilities to win against Temari, that should be implied as true for everybody?
In the invasion he had to be saved by Asuma against what 3 or 4 other ninjas from the sound.
Yep, he indeed proved himself. NOT!
It doesn't need everybody to be elite, but most certainly you can't have everybody being an amateur! I never said that all of them had to be elite. I said that the perfect situation would be if they were all Jounin. Just like the perfect situation is sending all Jounin, the worst situation is sending all Genin. Basically she did the worse situation(Shikamaru was just promoted, so basically he was just a Genin).
Wow, they are the best genin in Konoha, that changes so much the situation. Go read chapter 9 of the series. Genin are supposed to do missions of rank C and D(with the presence of a Jounin instructor), Chuunin of rank B and C, given that Shikamaru was just a newbie Chuunin he was only qualified to do missions of level C. Given that Zabusa mission was of rank A, than this is also of rank A. Tsunade sent people that should do missions of rank C, and 4 of them should do with the presence of a Jounin instructor, a mission of rank A.
@Purple:
Like seriously you mentioned anbu as part of the jonin but you're not going to just send some if your highest ranking AND classified guys to hunt a genin defector. Some teachers, some regulars, but the amount will always be lower than the amount of chuunin unless something is wrong with the system. They just got a new hokage who was outside the village for a long time and their infrastructure is in shambles due to the invasion. That sounds like more of an investment to make than some snot nosed brat.
Jonin being less than Chuunin, doesn't mean anything in this situation. In this situation Tsunade sent 5 people, only 5 people. Are you assuming that being less than Chuunin means being in the single digits? Or in the dozens? Because let's see you have: Shizune(1 jounin), Shizune team(4 jounin), Kakachi(5 j), Gai(6 j), Asuma(7 j), Kurenai(8 j), Hanko(9 J), Shikamaru dad(10 J), Shino dad(11 J), Hinata dad(12 J), Chouji dad(13 J), Ino dad(14 J), Yamamoto(15 J), Danzo(16 J), Jiraya(17 J), Guys with Danzo(19 J), Sai(20 J), Guys in Anbu(20 + x), Guys not in Anbu but still Jounin(20 + x + y), Others Jounin instructors(20 + x + y + z).
Am I making me clear? The proportions you're using are all wrong, or you're not even using any proportions at all and just saying stuff. Jonin being few compared with Chuuning that are in the millions, is not saying much when you just need 5 people.
Note that if she sent only Chuunins than that would be also way, but way way better than what she did.
So you're comparing dangerous from outside the village and infrastructure in shambles with 5 people. So basically you're saying that if in the invasion 5 more Adult Ninjas causalities happened than the actual number, being veterans Chuunin or Jonin, than in that moment the Village would be in deep shit, right?
If Tsunade didn't really wanted to invest qualified ninjas into that mission, than she should just not send anybody to make it! You don't risk the live of 5 amateurs and future valuable assets, that as you said it was more important investment at the moment, to a mission that most certainly will fail and where there is a high probability for them to die. And only because an enemy that pretty much is out of the picture, as you said.
@Purple:
And yes, orochimaru is pretty much out of the picture. That was the whole basis of the time skip along with the body transfer deal. Summoning manda doesn't mean shit to oro if he can't even use regular jutsu that he desires. He's not going to charge in again like he did during the exams because that's suicide so his threat to the village really isn't that big compared to established threats. Assuming that tsunade's reasoning is correct and their manpower really is stretched thin, orochimaru should be a consideration but not one that outweighs the other villages
When you say out of the picture what are you saying? Of potential sound village attack to Konoha? So basically are you saying that the only thing that Konoha does is defend. So an enemy attack them, destroy important things to them, steal important things to them and the only thing they do and are preoccupied is defense? And they are so stupid to the point of not even thinking about the future? And because they are only in defense, only thinking in today is justifiable to send kids to a dangerous mission? It seems like this is your justification.
Given that Orochimaru was in a weaken state and that they knew how to get to him, just means that it was their golden opportunity to eliminate him. Ending future attacks and avenging the already made destruction that he and his village made.
As I already told, she choose 5 people to go to Orochimaru mission. She could very well exchange the kids and adults of place. That would be negligible to the other Villages and in terms of the village protection. Why it would be negligible? Because of the size of the fucking village!
No, in an organization people that are just promoted, like Shikamaru, will not start by doing crucial jobs. You might dream that you end the university and go work in something really important in the organization you got in from the get go, but that is totally false. Something important is called experience and certification of competence, two things that Shikamaru didn't had! You can lie to yourself and think that he had, be he didn't!
Actually what you are saying is only applicable to the real world and not really to the Naruto world. In any proffession where qualification decides the life and death of people nobody would be promoted if they could not immideatly take part in a mission applicable to their level. And it was made clear that they didn't choose shikamaru to be the main fighter in a team but because of his exellent leader skills so by default he would be choosen for missions that require his brain and not his strength.
It doesn't need everybody to be elite, but most certainly you can't have everybody being an amateur! I never said that all of them had to be elite. I said that the perfect situation would be if they were all Jounin. Just like the perfect situation is sending all Jounin, the worst situation is sending all Genin. Basically she did the worse situation(Shikamaru was just promoted, so basically he was just a Genin).
Wow, they are the best genin in Konoha, that changes so much the situation. Go read chapter 9 of the series. Genin are supposed to do missions of rank C and D(with the presence of a Jounin instructor), Chuunin of rank B and C, given that Shikamaru was just a newbie Chuunin he was only qualified to do missions of level C. Given that Zabusa mission was of rank A, than this is also of rank A. Tsunade sent people that should do missions of rank C, and 4 of them should do with the presence of a Jounin instructor, a mission of rank A.
Here again I agree with you. This mission is an A-Rank and therefore should be done by Jounin and maybe some Chuunin - we never have seen the real life requirements for an A-Rank mission (it could be as low as 1 Jounin with his team of 3 to five chuunnin) - but Kishimoto should not have handwaved this by saying there are not enough Jounin in a city to send out a few and return sasuke in a few hours. And really from the first confrontation the sound four had with the two jounin even four jounin would have blown them away. And with a few very good genin and two jounin it would have been possible too. And even then it is stupid for them to all fight one on one. From the normal setup we expect ninja team fights which are a lot harder to write and still make it interesting.
@Bigivel: Point is Tsunade was working with what she thought best in a time of crisis. No one is arguing that the decision she made was the best possible decision she could have made. In fact we've already stated that looking back on the mission it should have been handled differently. It's just that we have that advantage of hindsight.
She treating the situation as the best that she thought isn't what is in question. That she treated the situation so badly as to level of retardation is what is the problem. Between her management of the mission to Fairy Tail Laxus giving his Electric power to Natsu to fight against Hades is hard to think who of them is most stupid, Laxus or Tsunade. At least Laxus as the excuse that he had literally no time to think things through.
I'm not even talking of the best possible solution, I'm talking of the worst possible solution, hers. Let's say that is just one of the worst possible solutions, given that there is always a stupider solution!
And no, what I'm saying is that the problem is not noticeable with advantage of hindsight! At that time there were every information to be able to see that her decision was stupid. Them going to safe Sasuke was totally shoehorned without any good explanation whatsoever. It was obvious that Kishi dispatched the problem as fast as possible so people reading or watching didn't even noticed the problem. Is super obvious how her decision is horrible. Just like the decision of calling Naruto to fight against Pain, when what Pain is after is Naruto. And because of what? For what she said at the time "Naruto isn't a child anymore, I believe in Naruto". Incredible rationale! She is in fact the genius of genius. And Kishimoto really knows how to write intelligent people.
Looking at it from Tsunade's in-the-moment perspective though we knew most of the elites were off doing missions and the rest of the elites had to stay and do their duties in the village. Tsunade specifically said this so Shikamaru would have to pick out some Genin and Kishi specifically made this point so us, the readers, would know why any elites weren't being sent and instead the main characters had to go. From Kishi's perspective it was an apt excuse to get the main characters involved and allow breathing room for the possibility for Sasuke's successful escape because that was Kishi's plan. If Kishi made Tsunade send a bunch of Jounin after Sasuke he would not have been able to take his story in the direction he wanted it to go at that point (which in hindsight, lol, would have probably been a good thing).
The problem is this. There were competent Ninjas in the village! But not all of them needed to stay and do their duties! Is obvious that it was easy to get 5 Ninja without as much as a problem. believing otherwise is stupidity.
In the war between Sparta and Persia, for some reason they couldn't take their army to fight against the Persians(there are a lot of theories of why), but they were still able to at least take 300 elite soldiers and 300 slave warriors with them.
Are we really believing that Tsunade was unable to take a team of 4 or 5 people to that mission. Preposterous.
To see the absurd of the situation, Toei company has 311 employees, it is absurd to think that Toei isn't able to take 4 or 5 people and give a special assignment to them. If is absurd for a 311 employee organization for that to happen, what do you think it is for the biggest Ninja Village in Naruto world?
Hiro Mashima also specifically told why Laxus gave the rest of his Electric power and gave it to Natsu, Just because he told doesn't means it make any sense. Kubo also specifically told that Aizen planned everything, it doesn't make it less bullshit!
It doesn't matter if Kishi wanted something to happen in a certain way. After establishing things in his story he can't break them without a very well explained reason and he can't put a half-assed excuse for why something happened.
He Built the Village System. He put Naruto and the rest in their level at the moment. He created other more competent Ninjas of the Village. He created Orochimaru as the big villain and made he do what he did. He put Sasuke going to meet to Orochimaru. He put the retrieve. So he can't just disregard everything that he made before, by founding the bullshit reason of "I can't take any of the competent Ninja from the village so I will send you".
Well he can, but is really bad writing! But then again a lot of mangakas write really bad and still sell a lot and receive a lot of money!
This is also another good point. Orochimaru at that time didn't pose as much of a threat to Konoha as the other villages did, so Tsunade wasn't going to use the few elite resources she had left to chase down a Genin defector.
Is not about posing threat to them. He was the number one man to kill of the village. Bin Laden after the Twin Towers didn't pose much of a threat to the United States of America, but he was still the most hunted person! Why do you think that was? Do you think America didn't had a lot of other threats?
The resources needed were just a little quantity of people, it didn't even had to be elite, veteran chuunins would already be a lot better. Even 1 veteran would make the situation thousand of times better. But it seems they didn't even had a person to spare. Can you think about a Huge village, that was more like a city, that didn't had 1 person to spare, and they weren't even in battle with anyone.
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Actually what you are saying is only applicable to the real world and not really to the Naruto world. In any proffession where qualification decides the life and death of people nobody would be promoted if they could not immideatly take part in a mission applicable to their level. And it was made clear that they didn't choose shikamaru to be the main fighter in a team but because of his exellent leader skills so by default he would be choosen for missions that require his brain and not his strength.
But here the thing, the easiest mission that a Chuunin can make is the same level as the worst mission a Genin can make: Rank C. Of course that while the Genin would need a Jounin looking for them the Chuunin wouldn't need nothing of that.
Sending a noob Chuunin alone or leading Genins, to a mission of level B, the most dangerous mission a Chuunin normally should make, is god damn irresponsible, but in this case Tsunade went a step further and sent them to an A mission.
Yeah I am not arguing the stupidity but that every chuunin should be able to handle a B rank mission and even assist on an A-rank mission (if he is given good jounin teammates) and as leadership is so emphasized should be able to lead any of his ranked missions b and c.
Again, tsunade doesn't have a crystal ball. You make it seem like she has every perspective we have when she had just taken up the job. In hindsight maybe sasuke should've been a more important endeavor but you're really missing the forest for the trees if you think sasuke and oro alone weigh more than the infrastructure of the village at the time those chapters came out.
But that's just the point. She takes no risk with sending five jounins after sasuke. They are gone for maybe a few hours, even when there are just a few jounin left in the village five less should not make the difference between the village running and it not running, and during a few hours nobody can prepare an invasion. and if they are already preparing then again five less should not make a difference
She knows the difficulty because the sound four were seen when orochimaru killed the third and it is only logical that orochimaru will send even more reinforcements.
And the importance of sasuke is clear. If she decides to follow him at all then she should do that with the best possible chances of success otherwise she just squanders ressources needlessly.
But that's just the point. She takes no risk with sending five jounins after sasuke. They are gone for maybe a few hours, even when there are just a few jounin left in the village five less should not make the difference between the village running and it not running, and during a few hours nobody can prepare an invasion. and if they are already preparing then again five less should not make a difference
She knows the difficulty because the sound four were seen when orochimaru killed the third and it is only logical that orochimaru will send even more reinforcements.
And the importance of sasuke is clear. If she decides to follow him at all then she should do that with the best possible chances of success otherwise she just squanders ressources needlessly.
At the same time though she does understand the importance of it to an extent. Sound four helped kill the third but mainly by erecting a barrier. Among other things was that their five man squad did prove to be competent, particularly naruto who she just got to know the previous arc. And on top of that she even sent out reinforcements to supplement them. All things considered their squad was pretty successful in engaging the enemy with no casualties with the only quandary being that they failed at their primary objective because it was sasuke
BUt it doesn't matter that they were pretty successful. Before the results were known it was the wrong decision especially as she had to send reinforcements. And someone who can erect such a strong barrier is powerful and therefore it is known in which general power-region they were. And other than naruto she really had no way of knowing how powerful the others were and how good the team would work together. So the much better deciscion and the only right one would have been to send a strong anbu or jounin team after sasuke.
BUt it doesn't matter that they were pretty successful. Before the results were known it was the wrong decision especially as she had to send reinforcements. And someone who can erect such a strong barrier is powerful and therefore it is known in which general power-region they were. And other than naruto she really had no way of knowing how powerful the others were and how good the team would work together. So the much better deciscion and the only right one would have been to send a strong anbu or jounin team after sasuke.
The results from the exam speak for themselves in a lot of ways. Neji is continuously hailed as a genius. Kiba's scent tracking could be useful, and choji when paired with shikamaru is effective. I do all this argument giving tsunade the benefit of the doubt that the village really is stretched thin on resources and that the reinforcements were sent as backup more than that they felt outmatched.
Anbu I still feel is the wrong way to go about it because of the black ops nature of the group being used for stuff like this is kinda not their correct utility
So black-ops shouldn't interact with the most devasting enemy group their village knows and bring back one of the more valuable assets of the village? To each his own I guess. And again: Yes she saw some things from Naruto and could listen to the opinion of others but nobody had seen the team in that form at all. It just isn't good for a team to go into a fight when they have no idea what the others strength or weaknesses are.
And even if she had known exactly how powerful and successful they could be the better option is still sending out five jounin level ninja.
And I still don't know how you can defend kishimoto's thinstretched excuse of the villages defenses being thinstretched. Why does it matter if five jounins are gone for a few hours? Nobody can prepare an attack in that time even if they would notice that. and they really shouldn't otherwise there are literally no ninja anymore in the village and they would attack anyway.
So black-ops shouldn't interact with the most devasting enemy group their village knows and bring back one of the more valuable assets of the village? To each his own I guess. And again: Yes she saw some things from Naruto and could listen to the opinion of others but nobody had seen the team in that form at all. It just isn't good for a team to go into a fight when they have no idea what the others strength or weaknesses are.
And even if she had known exactly how powerful and successful they could be the better option is still sending out five jounin level ninja.
And I still don't know how you can defend kishimoto's thinstretched excuse of the villages defenses being thinstretched. Why does it matter if five jounins are gone for a few hours? Nobody can prepare an attack in that time even if they would notice that. and they really shouldn't otherwise there are literally no ninja anymore in the village and they would attack anyway.
We as viewers are only given a small window as to the operations of the village in same way that our perspective has some things that give us more insight than tsunade. It's not about a split second attack more than it is village obligations and importance. Sure the S4 could take on two jonin together but let's not put them on the same level as zabuza, a legit A level threat according to kakashi.
And hell yeah it's weird to send black ops to go after a little shit like sasuke. It's like sending CIA operatives to do police work. Like I said, after kishimoto establishes how tied to village history the uchiha are and broken they are it makes no sense, but at the time I'd say it's well within the suspension of disbelief range
No its like sending the cia operatives after a low level goverment employee that defected to trrorists and took some important codes with him. and you bet america would do that. And the a level threat doesn't just come from the sound four but eventual reinforcements, sasukes importance and what orochimaru could do with him.
And we don't need to know how the village works to determine that five less jounin should never impact the performance. And yes at that time the uchihas weren't as broken but it was clearly shown that orochimaru (the greatest enemy of the village) would become more powerful with sasuke so no matter what the decision to make him important was the right one.
Oro was a shady guy but I personally think that akatsuki was being built as the apparent big bad, but in both cases I'd say they were still shadowy threats in spite of their existences being known. If I was the newly installed kage, I'd take the tenuous political stage as priority over some 12 year old brat going to a guy who is immobilized, otherwise he'd have done the job himself.
And yeah you need to know what they need to patch up politically or physically. You'd want your elites managing
Honestly my whole point originally though was that I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt to tsunade back in the day in spite of a sketchy five man kids team but that was pretty much shattered when uchihas are basically broken
But see its not tsunade you need to give the benefit of the doubt but you need to say that no matter how much we want those characters to make intelligent decicions kishimoto provided bad explanations. And honestly i see that tsunade herself can't go out as she is essential to the wounded village. but jounin are not irreplaceable in the running of a village. for most tasks chuunin and in some cases even genin work just as well. and although akatsuki was a group they should watch out for orochimaru had just killed their leader and surely could only be strengthened through sasuke.
This is in universe logic. If kishimoto is giving the explanation to tsunade then it should be determined if it makes sense for her to make that decision. If it doesn't make sense, then it's the author's fault, but the logic must be consistent with the world first. And yeah sure, the jonin are replaceable but we literally have no idea what other missions they could be deployed on or what they're in charge of in the village otherwise, which is why the benefit of the doubt can be applied here.
Overall orochimaru got points for taking down sarutobi yeah but we just saw that he's not going to be able to move for awhile in the previous arc. Oro to me was a threat to watch but not the biggest threat to the village at the time due to circumstances that have already been laid out in the story.
Then if we look at in universe then her decision is a bad one and she told Shikamaru lies as there is no way a village can be dependent on five jounin missing for a few hours and if it were then it is royally f***ed and should be erased from the list of the five big villages.
Like I said, benefit of the doubt because we have no idea what the utilization of those jonin were. Could be deployed in other strategic endeavors. It also depends on perceived threat and team synergy. It has nothing to do with immediate safety for the village but is more on my reading of her statement that she already strained most of the jonin in jobs outside the village.
maybe i remember wrong..but wasn't impossible to send someone of higher grade because literally everyone was busy doing missions around the world because konoha needed to hid the fact that they had a shortage of ninja after the war?
it's not like she didn't want to send someone better than the genin group,literally no one was avaiable at the time.
maybe i remember wrong..but wasn't impossible to send someone of higher grade because literally everyone was busy doing missions around the world because konoha needed to hid the fact that they had a shortage of ninja after the war?
it's not like she didn't want to send someone better than the genin group,literally no one was avaiable at the time.
Aye, this is how I remember the situation as well.
Probs coulda sent guy tho
Yes if the argument is that they literally have no other ninja above the chunin rank in town then that too is not very believable. Because they still need somebody there to protect the city even if there are just a few dozen or less. Otherwise it is such a massive bluff that it opens another can of worms on why this bluff worked. And even a chunnin team that works well together would have been better than the few genin that don't work well together.
Really the argument is that when the other villages come investigating Konoha they see on the one hand all the traces of ninja going of doing assignements and on the other hand a force that seems strong but in reality isn't in the village and therefore think that konoha didn't suffer many losses and don't attack. But the force in the village can't be powerless so if they try something to test them they should be able to force it back.
They kept a handful of jonin and chuunin I'm sure for protection, but Like I said, politics is politics. Keeping up that facade to maintain appearances after the attack and getting a new village leader is easy enough to do with keeping with mission demand.
But politics is politics and if there are any jounin at all back in konoha it doesn't matter if five of them go away for a couple of hours. Because for a few hours (and honestly that is a high ballpark figure) five jounins could be replaced by dressed up civilians.
But politics is politics and if there are any jounin at all back in konoha it doesn't matter if five of them go away for a couple of hours. Because for a few hours (and honestly that is a high ballpark figure) five jounins could be replaced by dressed up civilians.
The facade probably isn't within the village but I'm saying maaaaybe a few jonin for security particularly of higher up elders and the kage. Same with chuunin. I don't doubt that if tsunade ranked it a priority one mission she'd be able to spare it but the squad they built probably was felt to be sufficient with some supplemental backup taking advantage of the sand siblings to make up for lack of capacity.
see that is not a good deciscion making process she has then. If you send someone it should be someone who can defenitely do it and not someone who might fail. So Jounin and not genin. And she didn't know about the reinforcements she then sent when she sent Shikamaru on the way. And the elders and kage won't be protected at all in such a desperate situation. They need to keep up appearances and the only thing an enemy sees are the walls.
For a smart leader there are only two options: 1. Sent some Jounins who are back two hours later and accomplished the mission. 2. Send nobody
Everything else is inefficient as the genin could easily rebuild the village too and are as efficient as the jounin there and much less efficient with the mission.
maybe i remember wrong..but wasn't impossible to send someone of higher grade because literally everyone was busy doing missions around the world because konoha needed to hid the fact that they had a shortage of ninja after the war?
it's not like she didn't want to send someone better than the genin group,literally no one was avaiable at the time.
That just makes Tsunade even worse and is not what the situation was! If they had nobody to protect and run the Village than they would just be a unprotected stagnated village. That would be the biggest fiasco ever.
In the story Tsunade says that they have Ninjas in the village, but they are "important" and she can't send no one of them to the mission.
The great problem is really nobody being available in a huge village. So nobody could stop his work for some hours, or put someone less qualified person(Genin, …) in his place for some little time. Basically an entire city couldn't adjust itself to resolve an micro extra situation. Do you know what that means? If even one person died or missed his work, than the all Village was screwed up. That was basically the justification that Tsunade gave. That the village was in such an extreme situation that even a little breeze of wind would make all the village crumble! Not only that is a mega horrible situation to be, but if they were in such a situation, why did she still sent the Team after Sasuke, and why did she still sent Ninjas to outside missions?
see that is not a good deciscion making process she has then. If you send someone it should be someone who can defenitely do it and not someone who might fail. So Jounin and not genin. And she didn't know about the reinforcements she then sent when she sent Shikamaru on the way. And the elders and kage won't be protected at all in such a desperate situation. They need to keep up appearances and the only thing an enemy sees are the walls.
For a smart leader there are only two options: 1. Sent some Jounins who are back two hours later and accomplished the mission. 2. Send nobody
Everything else is inefficient as the genin could easily rebuild the village too and are as efficient as the jounin there and much less efficient with the mission.
Like I said, we have no vision as to the missions that the jonin are compensating for. If it's because the jonins became crippled, they wouldn't just send chuunin or genin on a ranked missions. I wouldn't say that this political bluffing or gesturing is the wisest of moves but it's not unheard of even in the real world either
@Purple:
They kept a handful of jonin and chuunin I'm sure for protection, but Like I said, politics is politics. Keeping up that facade to maintain appearances after the attack and getting a new village leader is easy enough to do with keeping with mission demand.
You and the politics justification. The situation had nothing to do with politics! Nothing to do with the relationships between Ninja Villages and potential threats. The situation has to do with the workforce management of the village. Is that simple. By what is said, the village was full with outside mission and full with internal affairs. Not only full with internal affairs, but all the people in it was in a situation where they couldn't have any kind of flexibility!
So wasn't only the management of the village workforce horrible, but Tsunade still decided to make another important and dangerous mission, and decided to put amateurs kids to it, even though the probability of them failing was huge.