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Random News Article Discussion II
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It was a radio interview with Rotten during his Sex Pistol days so they just used a picture of Saville from that time period.
Complicating things since 2009.
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http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/mexico-top-drug-lord-joaquin-el-chapo-guzman-32391502
We (The US) offered to take him but Mexico wanted to prove that no one escapes their prisons now.
Oops.
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Lydon was pretty clean I think, and is.
What's rotten on him is his hilariously petulant five year old attitude that he still proudly sports to this day.
And which is actually quite commendable given the context of wanting to murder a serial child rapist though I guess.
Also he was making impeccable ass music in those days. -
Lydon's no Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/eurozone-greece-reach-agreement-bailout-071824822.html
Looks like a deal has been made between Greece and the Eurozone
If you are gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk
RIP Eli Wallach
3DS Friend Code: 3454-0518-6166
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Before the grown-ups talk about Greece and other stuff I'm laughably out of my league in discussing, just one last snappy comment:
If there's one thing good that came out of the Saville debacle, it's probably how it hilariously turned the Venerable Chris Morris into a sort of ironic prophet:
('Relevant stuff' at 14:31)
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/eurozone-greece-reach-agreement-bailout-071824822.html
Looks like a deal has been made between Greece and the Eurozone
I can pretty much see Greece ending up in the same near-bankrupt position once again before One Piece ends
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http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33514174
looooooool I guess he really is worth his name now. -
@xan:
I can pretty much see Greece ending up in the same near-bankrupt position once again before One Piece ends
Before One Piede ends? This means 15 years at the very least (unless Oda dies, but that's another matter) and in 15 years Greece will be near-bankrupt at least another 3 times, if Germany keeps pretending this kind of "help", which only hekps creditors (a.k.a. foreign banks), while leaving the country to starve…
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@Mr.:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33514174
looooooool I guess he really is worth his name now.gonna go up to farmington and buy that mansion of his
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Huh. I knew that his boxing promotion buisness went belly up not to long ago.
But i didn't think it was that bad. Guess he beat Mayweather in the race into bankruptcy
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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/boy-scouts-ending-ban-gay-adult-leaders
Big Gay Al gets a big gay win!
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They finally figured out gay =//= pedophile. Good for them.
Or were they thinking gay scout leaders would influence their scouts to be gay? Hell, I don't know. This decision was really late but it being a unanimous decision says good things.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Historic Iran Nuclear Arms Deal struck today.
http://news.yahoo.com/formal-nuclear-deal-reached-iran-063643162–politics.html#
2 key details about the deal that were figured out in order for the deal to come through.
1. Arms embargo on Iran will continue for at least the next 5 years but may end early if the international monitors definitively clear Iran of working on any nuclear weapons.
2. UN inspectors have the authority to visit nuclear sites in Iran but access isn't guaranteed and even may be challenged and delayed until an arbitration board composed of Iran and the six world powers would decide on the issue.
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As someone who grew up in a conservative Christian environment I have to sadly say that the "gay marriage slippety slope into pedophilia" argument is actually one of the less ridiculous fallacies out there.
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As someone who grew up in a conservative Christian environment I have to sadly say that the "gay marriage slippety slope into pedophilia" argument is actually one of the less ridiculous fallacies out there.
Where did this notion stem from anyways? How did hetero pedophiles, which actually make up the vast majority of pedophiles, get a pass when this idea came about? Are they this adamant on attacking gay people?
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Where did this notion stem from anyways? How did hetero pedophiles, which actually make up the vast majority of pedophiles, get a pass when this idea came about? Are they this adamant on attacking gay people?
Good time now as any to out myself as a Slacktivist reader
It doesn't focus on the "gays are icky like pedoes ewwwww" mentality but it does a pretty systemic analysis on how homophobia is rooted in conservative Christianity
And yeah it doesn't just get restricted to USA - washes up on the shores of folks like yours truly.
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Where did this notion stem from anyways? How did hetero pedophiles, which actually make up the vast majority of pedophiles, get a pass when this idea came about? Are they this adamant on attacking gay people?
Hey you gotta come up with some way to convince people on the evils of homosexuality even if you have to lie and come up
with arguments that make no damn sense. -
Good time now as any to out myself as a Slacktivist reader
It doesn't focus on the "gays are icky like pedoes ewwwww" mentality but it does a pretty systemic analysis on how homophobia is rooted in conservative Christianity
And yeah it doesn't just get restricted to USA - washes up on the shores of folks like yours truly.
Homophobia stems from lots of traditional forms of societal organization. You don't need Abrahamic religions to wind up with it.
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Yeah but a lot of cultures that once recognized and accepted homosexuality or multiple genders no longer do thanks to colonial (christian) interference. It wasn't all peaches and cream everywhere but Europe dealt a huge blow to homosexuals on just about every continent.
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Yeah but a lot of cultures that once recognized and accepted homosexuality or multiple genders no longer do thanks to colonial (christian) interference.
This is a horrible generalization and borderline incredibly presentist.
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@Cyan:
This is a horrible generalization and borderline incredibly presentist.
not really. They ruined gay stuff for africa, both americas, south east asia, japan… themselves.
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Can you give examples of societies that accepted homosexuality?
And don't say ancient Greece, because that one has been debunked dozens of time already.
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Like, the general concept of homosexuality and heterosexuality being distinct identities is recent and as far as we can tell (sexuality in precolonial societies is a very young field) didn't really exist as we know it in places like subsaharan or central Africa. Ditto in a broad sense with ancient Greece and Rome, but there's caveats and complexities we know of with them.
Then there's the weird area where what we 21st century people would call a same sex relationship is more like a really complex ceremonial thing - like the Rain Queen of the Lobedu and her court of 'wives'.
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Woowww!
Pluto: New Horizons probe completes flyby nine years after leaving Earth
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Can you give examples of societies that accepted homosexuality?
And don't say ancient Greece, because that one has been debunked dozens of time already.
Google LGBT history and insert a country or culture after it. I'm heading to work so I don't have the time but there's so much information out there if you want to read it.
Also I'm not sure what you're saying has been debunked with Greece. The males definitely engaged in gay sex for a lot of different reasons depending on the area. I don't know anything about female homosexuality in ancient greece.
@Cyan
I agree with almost everything you're saying. I'm just saying that when you read the histories of homosexuality activity or behaviors in any of the areas I mentioned, they all take a nosedive once Europeans arrive and start setting up shop I'll also say that the stigma attached to these activities and behaviors that continues in these areas is a direct result of colonial influence. I don't think that's a generalization. I think that's a fact.
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Can you give examples of societies that accepted homosexuality?
And don't say ancient Greece, because that one has been debunked dozens of time already.
Well . . . . . Japan has always had an underlining homosexual culture. Never openly, like they'd never hold a pride parade. But if you look in their history things like samurai always had their pages and it wasn't at all uncommon for them to "play around" with them. Monks would have relationships with their apprentices, Kabuki actors who played female roles, etc. All well known, but never talked about openly.
And of course there's things like Yaoi and Yuri anime/manga. But I took a seminar on homosexuality in Japanese lit. in college and my professor showed us a magazine for gay Japanese men and MAN was it not made of pretty Yaoi boys. shudder
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not really. They ruined gay stuff for africa, both americas, south east asia, japan… themselves.
A lot of traditionally accepted homosexuality was still really patriarchal and usually in the realms of "It's cool if you're the penetrator, and it doesn't make you less of a MAN".
Which is in fairly open conflict with the modern concept of homosexuality.
So you're going to see the former still exist in places like the middle east, while they simultaneously get all raging and violent about the latter.
Also I call heavily into question the idea that the middle east got uh…christianed into homophobia?? Or really anywhere that wasn't converted or for that matter colonized (Japan, Iran, Thailand, China).
Like you can bring up the Philippines and much of Sub-Saharan Africa sure, you can bring up evangalizing in places like Singapore, which bring the most extreme forms of American Christianity abroad (this is what Pachylad is talking about). But it's not like these missionary and radicalizing efforts are being carried out by Lutherans, Unitarians and Congregationalists lol.
I mean stuff like the influence in Uganda and Singapore is really recent and not really connected to colonization or Europe. It's those radical American missionary groups.--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Well . . . . . Japan has always had an underlining homosexual culture. Never openly, like they'd never hold a pride parade. But if you look in their history things like samurai always had their pages and it wasn't at all uncommon for them to "play around" with them. Monks would have relationships with their apprentices, Kabuki actors who played female roles, etc. All well known, but never talked about openly.
That's pretty much everywhere though. That sort of thing. Historically or otherwise. In all those cases on some level the "bottom" was still looked down on and hushed up. The more "feminine half" if you will.
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In areas that are patriarchal then yes assuming the feminine role during sex was not a badge of honor. However most societies that had a concept of multiple genders would not consider the indivual male or female. They would be a distinct group smilar to kathoeys.
In any area that experienced occupation and fell under colonial rule the laws basically outlawed homosexuals and third gendered people. Pressure to modernize meant the removal and change of social customs that had been more accepting of homosexual behaviors. I mentioned Japan and not china because I'm not that aware of China's homosexual history. South east Asia and India had much more open customs before colonial rule. The Anti-sodomy laws that came into effect were based in Christianity. They also had laws that said what each sex was allowed to wear. I'd consider such laws based on social customs which were based on Christian beliefs.
I don't think anyone was converted to homophobia but they created an atmosphere that limited sex to hetersexual sex and rigidly defined gender roles. This combined with the oppression in these areas resulted in the modern stigma attached to acts and customs where, before Europeans, there previously was none or it wasn't as extreme.
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In any area that experienced occupation and fell under colonial rule the laws basically outlawed homosexuals and third gendered people. Pressure to modernize meant the removal and change of social customs that had been more accepting of homosexual behaviors. I mentioned Japan and not china because I'm not that aware of China's homosexual history.
The main thing with both is that they were never colonized. And certainly their drives to modernization did not include Christianity/Western cultural upheaval.
Japan modernized with it's Confucian/Buddhist/Shinto heritage intact (albeit effected by modernization and global awareness).
China's tricky because instead of Western cultural norms upheaving local customs, it was Communism writ hardcore. Which either way or the other I don't think really effected homosexuality.South east Asia and India had much more open customs before colonial rule. The Anti-sodomy laws that came into effect were based in Christianity. They also had laws that said what each sex was allowed to wear. I'd consider such laws based on social customs which were based on Christian beliefs.
How rigourously are those enforced though? Only certain areas of India/Southeast Asia were converted to Christianity in the first place.
I still think the truly nasty homophobia being made a western import is modern and American.I don't think anyone was converted to homophobia but they created an atmosphere that limited sex to hetersexual sex and rigidly defined gender roles. This combined with the oppression in these areas resulted in the modern stigma attached to acts and customs where, before Europeans, there previously was none or it wasn't as extreme.
But those countries still have those gender categories, India still has some social wriggle room in a transsexual regard.
Hell so does Indonesia even though it converted to Islam earlier than the Euro Colonial period. Same in Pakistan. Even Iran has oddly lax attitudes toward transexuality in some ways.
Much like how old school homosexuality ideas are incompatible with modern ones, I think the same is true of transexuals and stuff like that. You can have third genders while also having gender rigidly enforced. Opening up a third room doesn't mean there are no walls around the rooms.
I have this issue with even some modern approaches toward transexual issues, where on one hand there's a sense of gender liberation going on…while on the other hand sometimes there's gender essentialism going on that oddly aligns with some conservative ideas about masculinity and femininity. It's not inherently a sign of un-rigid gender roles.
And certainly not a sign that women aren't treated like garbage.--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Just to set things straight here's a rough map of who (last) colonized who/what.
[](http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Demescus/media/Colonization Map_zpsbyxy0ido.png.html)It came out kinda small, but uh the colors of countries indicate they were owned by countries that have the same colored circle on them.
But if it's not clear:
Red: UK/England
Blue: French
Green: Italy
Yellow: Portugal
Orange: Spain
Pink: USA
Purple: Ottomans/Turkey
Maroon: Russia/USSR
Hot Pink: Japan
Peach: China
Brown: Belgium
Gold Brown: Netherlands
Aqua Blue: AustriaI tried doing it by last major owner, so you had plenty of legacy not shown from previous empires. Namely lots of Middeastern Ottoman territory and the entire German empire (handed out to winners after WW1).
I tried not counting briefer military occupation as colonization, which kept Ethiopia from being Italian or more of Asia being Japanese.
Also yeah picking the USA for most of the USA is a little strange, but French and British ownership was kinda….more claim in most of that.
Should have colored Louisiana blue though whoops.
Maybe should have colored Eritrea an Ethiopia color too? -
The main thing with both is that they were never colonized. And certainly their drives to modernization did not include Christianity/Western cultural upheaval.
Japan modernized with it's Confucian/Buddhist/Shinto heritage intact (albeit effected by modernization and global awareness).
China's tricky because instead of Western cultural norms upheaving local customs, it was Communism writ hardcore. Which either way or the other I don't think really effected homosexuality.I never made mention of China except in response to it being brought up. Japan is a much easier topic to discuss when it comes to homosexuality. Like Satsuki already said homosexuality was a definite part of Japanese culture. It existed at almost all levels of society. Modernization infected all parts of Japan from the way all classes dressed to how they structured their military to how they worked. The modernization was a response to rising European influence and militarization in the area. The streamlining of sexuality in Japan definitely coincides directly with this period of rising European influence. Again I don't think that many were actually converted but Europe and Christianity are so intertwined, especially back then, I don't see it as a stretch at all to say that European influence is basically Christian influence. Even if they're not wearing crosses, the people pointing guns at them, messing with their governments, and forcing open trade were wearing them.
How rigourously are those enforced though? Only certain areas of India/Southeast Asia were converted to Christianity in the first place.
I still think the truly nasty homophobia being made a western import is modern and American.They were as rigorously enforced there as they were at home. In some cases even more so because people had less protection under the law compared to their British counter parts. You don't need to convert people to make them obey your christian based laws. You just need to have guns.
All the gender studies I've read that could be applied to this discussion cite colonization or European influence as huge turning points for many cultures in how they treated each other and in what as moral and/or socially acceptable. You are saying this isn't true but is a modern retelling of history. I'd have to do more reading on my own before I accepted that idea. As of now nothing you've said has changed my position.
But those countries still have those gender categories, India still has some social wriggle room in a transsexual regard.
Hell so does Indonesia even though it converted to Islam earlier than the Euro Colonial period. Same in Pakistan. Even Iran has oddly lax attitudes toward transexuality in some ways.
Much like how old school homosexuality ideas are incompatible with modern ones, I think the same is true of transexuals and stuff like that. You can have third genders while also having gender rigidly enforced. Opening up a third room doesn't mean there are no walls around the rooms.
I have this issue with even some modern approaches toward transexual issues, where on one hand there's a sense of gender liberation going on…while on the other hand sometimes there's gender essentialism going on that oddly aligns with some conservative ideas about masculinity and femininity. It's not inherently a sign of un-rigid gender roles.
And certainly not a sign that women aren't treated like garbage.Just because they still exist today isn't proof that there were no attempts to stamp them out. It also does not disprove the notion that the decline in toleration for these individuals was heightened after Europeans powers took more control of the areas.
As for transsexual issues, they will be in a complicated position for awhile. Society views all things through the lens of the majority first so it will be transsexuality defined in reference to heterosexuality for some time. Maybe forever.
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How rigourously are those enforced though? Only certain areas of India/Southeast Asia were converted to Christianity in the first place.
I still think the truly nasty homophobia being made a western import is modern and American.It wasn't about conversion as such but the ban against homosexuality was formed under the Indian penal code by the Britishers. Whether or not it was based on their own religious beliefs isn't certain but most probably it was since Indians never really considered homosexuality as a grave offense. Before colonial rule homosexuality was considered just a low level offense which could be resolved by paying a fine. Scriptures written around the 4th century and even around 300-400 BC acknowledges homosexuality as an emotion but doesn't marginalize it as a major crime or ban it. Pretty sad to see people more knowledgeable and accepting homosexuality centuries back than right now. Unfortunately, the penal code set by the Britishers 100+ years back is embarrassingly still effective till date.
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The main thing with both is that they were never colonized. And certainly their drives to modernization did not include Christianity/Western cultural upheaval.
Japan modernized with it's Confucian/Buddhist/Shinto heritage intact (albeit effected by modernization and global awareness).Just to set things straight here's a rough map of who (last) colonized who/what.
[](http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Demescus/media/Colonization Map_zpsbyxy0ido.png.html)[http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/Demescus/Colonization Map_zpsbyxy0ido.png](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/Demescus/Colonization Map_zpsbyxy0ido.png)It came out kinda small, but uh the colors of countries indicate they were owned by countries that have the same colored circle on them.
But if it's not clear:
Red: UK/England
Blue: French
Green: Italy
Yellow: Portugal
Orange: Spain
Pink: USA
Purple: Ottomans/Turkey
Maroon: Russia/USSR
Hot Pink: Japan
Peach: China
Brown: Belgium
Gold Brown: Netherlands
Aqua Blue: AustriaI tried doing it by last major owner, so you had plenty of legacy not shown from previous empires. Namely lots of Middeastern Ottoman territory and the entire German empire (handed out to winners after WW1).
I tried not counting briefer military occupation as colonization, which kept Ethiopia from being Italian or more of Asia being Japanese.
Also yeah picking the USA for most of the USA is a little strange, but French and British ownership was kinda….more claim in most of that.
Should have colored Louisiana blue though whoops.
Maybe should have colored Eritrea an Ethiopia color too?I love Japan. The West tries to shove Christianity in their faces like all the new colonies and they (mostly) shrug it off.
But what is the pink part of the US supposed to be? The Louisiana Purchase?
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I never made mention of China except in response to it being brought up. Japan is a much easier topic to discuss when it comes to homosexuality. Like Satsuki already said homosexuality was a definite part of Japanese culture. It existed at almost all levels of society. Modernization infected all parts of Japan from the way all classes dressed to how they structured their military to how they worked.
Those are very different things from social mores. Lacking missionary activity where was homophobia supposed to slip in?
Like Satsuki also already said…Japan isn't even all that homophobic today. Which supports my point.
As I've said times before, homophobia in East Asia is an overall quieter sort of thing that doesn't fit into the Confucian family values. Sure they can tolerate it's existence, but mainstreaming it as part of the family? That's another matter altogether. LGBT rights are soaring across the entire developed world from North America, to South America's southern Cone, Anglophone Oceania, and Western Europe. But NOT East Asia's first world countries. They are existing firmly outside of that trend. While also not exhibiting any major active homophobia in their societies.The modernization was a response to rising European influence and militarization in the area.
Yes which is why most of it was technocratic reforms mixed with an obsession in modern styles. Not deep fundamental cultural change.
The streamlining of sexuality in Japan definitely
Again your making the mistake to assume that the existence of sideline homosexuality (a thing seen near absolutely everywhere really) indicates non-rigid gender and sexual roles. It really really doesn't.
Again I don't think that many were actually converted but Europe and Christianity are so intertwined, especially back then,
The Europe culture Japan copied was the industrial revolution and modern market capitalism, which involves Christianity how? And really nobody was converted at all. Christianity was completely uninvolved in the modernization of Japan. It's still uninvolved with Japan. The one time it tried to be involved ever the Tokugawa Shogunate genocided it away clean and neat.
I don't see it as a stretch at all to say that European influence is basically Christian influence.
If we were talking Medieval times maybe, but this becomes a really incorrect statement once you get into the Renaissance, Enlightenment, and two Industrial Revolutions. Much of which struggled against the Christian status quos rather than with.
This also falls apart given that the "modernization" of the time was not EUROPEAN so much as a thing that spread from the UK to transform every country it touched in a similar way to Japan. Russian and the Ottomans had almost identical experiences to Japan's…aside from failing at it. An experience where they were suddenly like "Oh shit we're really behind the other guys! Gotta update and get with the program!".
Don't need to even go that far out. Modern Germany and Italy didn't even exist until the decade after the Meiji revolution and their immediate response on unifying under one power was to do like Japan was and get all empire and built up and stuff. Christianity already being in power in all those places aside from the Ottomans.
The only notable Christian oriented events I can think of in those places would be the Catholic Church suffering losses of power in both Italy and parts of Germany. How does that fit the modernization = Christianity angle exactly?Even if they're not wearing crosses, the people pointing guns at them, messing with their governments, and forcing open trade were wearing them.
Can you find even one thing written or attributed to a Meiji politician or revolutionary about Christianity? Negative OR positive even?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I love Japan. The West tries to shove Christianity in their faces like all the new colonies and they (mostly) shrug it off.
Japan wasn't any kind of colony at all, and the uh time they shoved off Christianity (from Portuguese missionaries centuries before the age of empire) was a literal genocide of native Christian converts so it was really not a good thing. Modern Japanese views on it seem to agree too. I've never seen a positive depiction of the Tokugawa crackdown in any Japanese media anyway. Oda even associated the New Fishman Pirates with it lol.
Most colonies weren't really seriously approached with new religion unless they were mostly comprised of completely unorganized animist type traditions which describes most of Africa.
Colonized places that were Islamic, Hindu, or Buddhist or some OTHER kind of Christianity (usually Orthodox Christians) display pitifully low to non-existent levels of conversion under European rule.
Europe conquered almost all of Africa but it's the areas of pagan like practices that became Protestant/Catholic. Places that were Muslim from before are still Muslim, places that were Orthodox Christian from before (Eritrea, Egyptian Copts) are still Orthodox Christian.
The parts of India/Burma that were both isolated and animist were the ones that converted, mostly hill tribes in the mountains between those two countries.Islam, Hinduism, Orthodox Christianity, and Buddhism are much stronger in organization and were usually in stronger more built up societies when the Western Europeans came for them. Even super rural tribal areas of Africa that were Muslim previously remained so during colonial times.
But what is the pink part of the US supposed to be? The Louisiana Purchase?
Land that was French or British claimed/owned but not actually really colonized (except for the New Orleans area oops). So in all reality we were the ones that colonized it when we pushed through. The US also has the Philippines colored in on there, our one and only true experiment with Empire thank god. Though the colonial history there is shared with Spain who had them much longer and left more of an influence culturally (it's why the Philippines are Catholic, and why Filipino-Americans find themselves in this strange zone between identifying as Asian and Latino).
What I also think shouldn't be lost in that map is that China, Ethiopia and even the core of Russia are states that to this day have characteristics of essentially un-dissolved empires.
In China fairly recent conquest territory would be Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Xinjiang (especially the genocide bought northern area).
Ethiopia only very recently acquired the southern territories in it's borders. Namely the Oromo populated areas.
And Russia may have shed much of the old empire after the USSR fell apart but holy crap the North Caucasus.That's kind of the depressing thing about that map. You think "Good for those countries that escaped European colonialism :)" But practically all of them were mini empires or major empires themselves, usually their strength as such being a major part of resisting conquest. Ask Cambodia about how nice Thailand was as a neighbor. Ask anyone about China. Oromo and Somali people about Ethiopia.
Even Liberia could be considered the most depressingly perverse of all things…a chunk of Africa colonized by African-Americans who ended up lording over the natives. -
So what is your answer for why toleration for non-hetero-sex and third gender people takes dive in India as the Europeans arrive. In South East Asia as the Europeans arrive. In Japan as the Europeans arrive. In North America as the Europeans arrive.
There are no explicit religious prohibitions against homosexuality in the traditional religion of Japan, Shintoism, or in the imported religions of Buddhism (but see Buddhism and sexual orientation) or Confucianism. Sodomywas first criminalized in Japan in 1872, in the early Meiji era, to comply with the newly introduced beliefs of Western culture and Qing legal codes. But this provision was repealed only seven years later by the Penal Code of 1880 in accordance with the Napoleonic Code.[8]
This is history as determined by whoever the people are who determine what is history.
We can disagree on how large of an influence Christianity had on Europe from the fall of Rome to modern times, I'm sure much more read people have had the same discussion. But to me that influence is definitely in the background of how they viewed the rest of the world compared to them and how they viewed each other. You don't need churches for their to be a Christian influence if Christianity is in how you interact with people and your laws and your customs. In that way you spread the superiority of your beliefs by defining those who do not conform to them as inferior. The now inferior will attempt to remove that status and the easiest way to do so after your military fails to remove them is to assimilate parts of that culture that you think will strengthen your own. In some cases assimilate entirely.
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So what is your answer for why toleration for non-hetero-sex and third gender people takes dive in India as the Europeans arrive. In South East Asia as the Europeans arrive. In Japan as the Europeans arrive. In North America as the Europeans arrive.
The only case really made here is India and a select few Asian British colonies like Singapore etc.
The sodomy law thing Xan mentioned is a British imperial phenomenon. France didn't enact anything like that in it's colonies (so a big chunk of Southeast Asia), and neither did the Dutch (an even bigger chunk of Southeast Asia). Given how much of Southeast Asia is Islamic also makes this hard to swallow.
Japan never had Europeans arrive in that sense as you're saying. The only change in homophobia I've been able to find in Meiji Japan soley involved maintaining a PR image to other countries and not actually a cultural shift.
Also uh North America? Who are you covering in this regard. Because I mean we're almost all transplants from the Old World, not cultural converts.This is history as determined by whoever the people are who determine what is history.
Glossing over Confucianism en route to declaring that there aren't problems with LGBT acceptance in East Asia is really not wise.
So much of what troubles LGBT is basic patriarchal values rather than explicit religious mention, a partly patriarchal philosophy with staggering influence in Japan, China and the Koreas is kind of a biggie if wanting to discuss the matter.
What you posted is true but like I said, do more reading and really the matter is more "Gosh don't want the guys gossiping about us, we need to be taken seriously so uh just make a law on the books." instead of some fundamental shift toward homophobia.
The Napoleonic Code mentioned is basically just the French legal system, exactly as I mentioned earlier about the French not doing as the British were and dropping little sodomy law turds over it's colonial possessions.
Further to the point though, "Qing legal codes". The Qing dynasty was neither Christian nor Western.We can disagree on how large of an influence Christianity had on Europe from the fall of Rome to modern times,
It played a huge political role in Medieval Times, then became the grumpy political power in the room complaining about every major period that came about since the 1400's. Ripped the continent to smithereens in the 1600's, after which most scholarly sorts became hostile as heck to organized and political religion, a thing that has slowly been wafting down throughout the western Christian world's public ever since.
But to me that influence is definitely in the background of how they viewed the rest of the world compared to them
There's nothing intrinsic about "WE ARE BETTER THAN THEM BECAUSE OF OUR X" that makes the X to blame. People will always applaud their own Thing when they have the upper hand, they also do the same thing when they have the lower hand too matter of fact. When Japan transformed into the fascist monster of WW2 infamy it was on the backdrop of state Shinto. They now had the upper hand on all their neighbors and an equal hand to the Europeans. Now their X was what made them so great. Is Shinto the reason Japan viewed the rest of the world poorly compared to them?
Western Europe's idea of civilizing the lessers was as much about "They should worship like we do" as it was "They should wear pants and have stupid ass mustaches and muttonchops like we do". The takeaway isn't that big stupid mustaches are why they were acting like assholes, the point is the "like we do".
Japan didn't adopt the Christianity after all they adopted the awful facial hair. So they go from this to this. It happened within Europe too. When Peter the Great came along he pulled a Meiji era on Russia so Russian nobles went from looking like this to looking like this. But Russian didn't convert to Catholicism or any Protestant denomination in the process whatsoever.You don't need churches for their to be a Christian influence if Christianity is in how you interact with people and your laws and your customs.
You're being super vague about this though. Prescisely what interactions, customs, and laws are you talking about? Laws also being a thing Japan didn't have imposed on them.
In that way you spread the superiority of your beliefs by defining those who do not conform to them as inferior.
Modernizations drive wasn't some moral conflict though, it was almost always a material thing. Where literal material inferiority in regards to military and technology drove the embrace of it. This is how it was with Japan, China, Russia, Turkey, Iran, the Balkan states, Siam, heck even Spain. All the places not plugged into the early spread of the Industrial Revolutions. All these places felt the creep or direct impact of modernization against them and were motivated to be able to play ball or just survive.
Since it's in Western Europe and even an early participant in Colonialism let's focus on Spain.
A poor shit hole of vastly drooped influence that had enjoyed being in the cool Europe club in earlier centuries and now was out of it. Then they get their shit pushed in by the certainly Industrial USA, losing the last major colonies they even had. What followed was a half century of extremely awkward catch up with stuff they wanted to just be able to compete. Industrialization, Democracy…or maybe Communism...or finally why not Fascism??? Spain had felt the physical blow of not being modernized, that was their motive. But they didn't start trying to emulate American cultural character or anything like that. All those things were attempted mechanisms toward functioning better as a state. -
Lots of history in this page, and quite interesting at that. It's pretty bad that I know very little history of anything, whether it be the country I live in, the state I live in, or the world (I know a good bit of our natural history though).
Any suggestions on good sources for learning history? There's not a particular period or area I'm 100% interested in, so any suggestions would be welcome, whether specific books, documentaries, or just time periods you think I should start with. Thanks, and sorry for the off-topic question.
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@The:
Lots of history in this page, and quite interesting at that. It's pretty bad that I know very little history of anything, whether it be the country I live in, the state I live in, or the world (I know a good bit of our natural history though).
Any suggestions on good sources for learning history? There's not a particular period or area I'm 100% interested in, so any suggestions would be welcome, whether specific books, documentaries, or just time periods you think I should start with. Thanks, and sorry for the off-topic question.
I'm a big fan of Hank and John Green's
channel on youtube. They have 2 series of World History courses where each episode is about 10-15 minutes of very visual and stimulating crash courses in history. The videos are very fun and quite addictive. I mean, this is of course a basic knowledge of history but it's something, you know? There are of course many different documentaries out there, but as a general history course this is something I think you might have an interest in taking a look at to get you started.Everything's Eventual…
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It's important to start from a good base, and crash course tends to take a very "this is what we think happened, remember that history is full of bias" so I believe that it's a good source.
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I'm a big fan of Hank and John Green's
channel on youtube. They have 2 series of World History courses where each episode is about 10-15 minutes of very visual and stimulating crash courses in history. The videos are very fun and quite addictive. I mean, this is of course a basic knowledge of history but it's something, you know? There are of course many different documentaries out there, but as a general history course this is something I think you might have an interest in taking a look at to get you started.Note that Crash Course, being in 10-15 minute chunks, tends to gloss over some important details and doesn't really give the whole picture. It's a good jumping-off point, yes, but not something you can speak authoritatively about.
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Yeah, as I said, I wouldn't call it an in depth history course, but for a beginners guide to get you interested in learning more it serves greatly. By no means do you just watch these videos and think you're a history scholar but you might think, 'Wow I'm really interested in learning more about that specific time in history' and delve into it.
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@The:
Lots of history in this page, and quite interesting at that. It's pretty bad that I know very little history of anything, whether it be the country I live in, the state I live in, or the world (I know a good bit of our natural history though).
Any suggestions on good sources for learning history? There's not a particular period or area I'm 100% interested in, so any suggestions would be welcome, whether specific books, documentaries, or just time periods you think I should start with. Thanks, and sorry for the off-topic question.
I personally used to start by reading those concise Internationa/National history books, and then branching out from there.
And there are a bunch of fun documentaries up on youtube. Sure you need to sift through the history channel crap, but still.
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Also I sometimes envy you guys, you like to make hard debates which really boggles my mind and cause me to think twice and I wish I can do the same, scrap that I think I can.
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Japan wasn't any kind of colony at all, and the uh time they shoved off Christianity (from Portuguese missionaries centuries before the age of empire) was a literal genocide of native Christian converts so it was really not a good thing. Modern Japanese views on it seem to agree too. I've never seen a positive depiction of the Tokugawa crackdown in any Japanese media anyway. Oda even associated the New Fishman Pirates with it lol.
Land that was French or British claimed/owned but not actually really colonized (except for the New Orleans area oops). So in all reality we were the ones that colonized it when we pushed through. The US also has the Philippines colored in on there, our one and only true experiment with Empire thank god. Though the colonial history there is shared with Spain who had them much longer and left more of an influence culturally (it's why the Philippines are Catholic, and why Filipino-Americans find themselves in this strange zone between identifying as Asian and Latino).
I never really meant to claim Japan as a colony, I just was comparing the way Westerners always come flagging their Bibles into new territories, colony or no colony.
I don't remember our time in the Philippines being covered much in US history in high school. Maybe that was something they didn't want to discuss, shoved under the rug, so to speak.
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@joekido:
Also I sometimes envy you guys, you like to make hard debates which really boggles my mind and cause me to think twice and I wish I can do the same, scrap that I think I can.
We're a bunch of nerds. It's what we do in our spare time when we're not watching anime/movies/tv or reading manga/comics/books.
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The Trumpening continues: Trump's favorability rating among the GOP is only slightly behind Jeb Bush's.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/polltracker/donald-trump-jeb-bush-favorability-poll
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@Article:
Fifty-seven percent of Republicans now hold a favorable view of Trump, compared to 40 percent who hold an unfavorable view.
Can someone explain polling math to me? O_o
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Yeah, that would be the undecided or declined to answer part of the poll.
Now, if it were over 100%, it'd either be because of rounding or because it's CNN.
