If Sanji was just a girl.
Throughout this month, we will be testing new features (like search) so you may experience some hiccups from time to time. We'll try to not be too disruptive...
Chapter 732: "The Underground World"
-
If Sanji was just a girl.
-
Genocide, Child slavery, Child experimentation, all viable evils, ripping off a bra off a throwaway fodder character is one step too far Oda…. People have different reactions to things, if he had done that to a pre established female character like Nami and she had acted out of character and gone along with it I can understand being disgusted/annoyed whatever. But the girls surrounding him were fodder and an exaggeration of the groupie trope, with a bit of masochistic tendencies/ blind adoration for the actions of their leader. We see oddball male characters all the time, these female characters are not the type written supposed to be sympathetic to the reader, they are wacky fodder. If all the female characters did this or if this was the norm then I could see it as a problem, but it isn't and this scenario is played for laughs and dramatic effect for the very fact that it is so bizarre.
-
Doesn't change the fact that Franky just blasted them to all hell, guy and girl alike lol
I thought most people in the women thread didn't like scenes where Sanji (and recently Zoro) "whiteknighted" and refused to injure/fight seriously female enemies. Pink's groupies are clearly enemies. Fodder, yes, but they'd defend Pink like raving lunatic groupies would, so Franky's totally cool to blast them away.
Nothing about that failure of an argument of yours negates that it was a very awkward and uncomfortable scene to some of us that could have been constructed in a much better way. They still could've had a rockstar/groupies dynamic and Pink could have still been protrayed as disgusting. Oda's made disgusting villains before without resorting to awkward and unfunny "gags" to characterize them as such.
But of course, Oda is above failure. In Pell we trust. Amen.
-
@The:
Pink is like an inverse Baby 5
Comically unappealing man-baby, who gets droves of hot fangirls
Hot french maid, who can't say no to the advances of disgusting menTruly the epitome of clever shonen humor and class.
I don't know what it is but Oda's sense of humor is getting more crass (remember the hysterical dwarf on Robin's boobs scene? Haha! She has boobs!)
-
-
If Law had taken up the heart seat I suppose his "executives" would've been Bepo and JeanBart, however when Law joined the Donquixote family (and all this time scince Law joined) wheren't there other executives besides Law under the 'superexecutive' of the heart divison?
-
Then you're on MY side.
I'm on the side where I don't find anything Oda does perfect, but I found that some people's positions here, in both camps (extreme feminism/Oda doesn't do anything bad), disgusts me more than each of Oda's mistakes.
So Oda makes a mistakes here, one there, everyone does and Oda's a human, but he still has ethics and values of higher quality than average Joe if you find on AP/every other forum about whatever
Proud Kintama Owner 
-
Genocide, Child slavery, Child experimentation, all viable evils, ripping off a bra off a throwaway fodder character is one step too far Oda…. People have different reactions to things, if he had done that to a pre established female character like Nami and she had acted out of character and gone along with it I can understand being disgusted/annoyed whatever. But the girls surrounding him were fodder and an exaggeration of the groupie trope, with a bit of masochistic tendencies/ blind adoration for the actions of their leader. We see oddball male characters all the time, these female characters are not the type written supposed to be sympathetic to the reader, they are wacky fodder. If all the female characters did this or if this was the norm then I could see it as a problem, but it isn't and this scenario is played for laughs and dramatic effect for the very fact that it is so bizarre.
No one is arguing it's a norm. Merely that they thought the scene in itself was stupid.
-
Awesome chapter. No revelations, but know franky was awesome and the dofla family-organisation is now clear. The only thing that was disappointing was, that we didnt see sanji. I cant believe oda let sanji announce an attack against big moms ship and then not show him for two weeks.
If Vergo is at the same level the three super-executives, there is no way they are shichibukai level. Someone here argued, that dolfa thought vergo can handle law, therefore if doflas subordinates are shichibukai-level, he has to be around yonko-level ("is the 5th yonko"). You are forgetting that vergo had laws heart and was only able to fight him because of this. After vergo lost laws heart, law one-hitted him. Vergo (and maybe the other super-executives), are therefore no match for a shichibukai.
Franky took out two of doflas subordinates. I think he can handle senior pink and will fight another supreme-executive. He really is a monster and it was shown that he is able to do most of the attacks he performed in the armorsuit in FI without the suit.
I dont really get why people still consider usopp,chopper and nami the weak trio. Chopper and usopp both had a 1vs1 fight in FI, nami and robin didnt. I think that both of them could get a 1vs1 fight again, while i cant see the same for robin, who hasnt shown much fighting spirit in the new world.
The graphic of the dofl-family also gave another hint, that diamante is in fact the strongest subordinate of dofla. I remember that it was said that lao g is with the other super-executor one of the 4 strongest members of their crew, so he has to be the strongest executor. The fact that he is diamantes subordinate implies that diamante is the strongest after dofla.
7/10 chapter
-
I'm on the side where I don't find anything Oda does perfect, but I found that some people's positions here, in both camps (extreme feminism/Oda doesn't do anything bad), disgusts me more than each of Oda's mistakes.
So Oda makes a mistakes here, one there, everyone does and Oda's a human, but he still has ethics and values of higher quality than average Joe if you find on AP/every other forum about whatever
Those "extreme feminists" don't exist here.
-
Then I will accept your personal opinion as such and take it out of the equation when discussing this particular matter. Just one last thing. If the girl was alright with it (i.e. liked it even) then you wouldn't go to jail for such behavior (that scene is of course only applicable to your girlfriend or your groupies if we are to compare it to the chapter).
That's true if you went around and ripped off a girls bra without consent and she was happy with it because she found you attractive you wouldn't have charges pressed against you. But the fact that you ripped off the girls bra without consent fulfills the requirement of sexual assault at law in a strict sense. He didn't know she would consent, he just did what he wanted because she was an object.
Anyway this is my personal opinion.
Genocide, Child slavery, Child experimentation, all viable evils, ripping off a bra off a throwaway fodder character is one step too far Oda…. People have different reactions to things, if he had done that to a pre established female character like Nami and she had acted out of character and gone along with it I can understand being disgusted/annoyed whatever. But the girls surrounding him were fodder and an exaggeration of the groupie trope, with a bit of masochistic tendencies/ blind adoration for the actions of their leader. We see oddball male characters all the time, these female characters are not the type written supposed to be sympathetic to the reader, they are wacky fodder. If all the female characters did this or if this was the norm then I could see it as a problem, but it isn't and this scenario is played for laughs and dramatic effect for the very fact that it is so bizarre.
That's a reasonable explanation but it just didn't sit right to me that she enjoyed the sexual abuse. Heavy themes, even rape can be in manga and be fine as it can represent reality but having someone be happy they were raped or sexually assaulted or something is not something I like.
-
In Senior Pink's opinion he was acting normally and wasn't objectifying the women he probably needed something to wipe his mouth. But what this shows in a broader sense is that the female was sexually assaulted and was initially upset and embarrassed but was happy with the assault. It isn't a comfortable thing to display in One Piece. In the very strict nature of the world and Senior Pinks point of view it was okay but Oda is writing to an audience from the real world where that act was sexual assault and the female was totally happy with it, leading to the conclusion those females were just objects.
I'm not saying this is 100% the case but I felt uncomfortable with the scene.
I'm making the point that it can't be objectification.
He isn't treating them like objects.
He tells the girls to go find another, younger man. Advising them on what's best for them.
I can understand if you feel uncomfortable with a girls bra being taken off but don't call it something it isn't.
Also this is a comic that depicts intense violence on a regular basis, with people being shot, stabbed, impaled etc. Senor Pink taking off a girls top to use as a hankie is hardly the worst thing Oda has ever drawn.
_"_Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!" - Auron
-
If i have to be honest, back when i was 15, i would have laughed about that scene
-
Since the feminism promoves the equality between men and women, what would be extreme feminism? i'm confused now.
-
I wish I could convey the whole book on philosophy of pornography in one sentence, so I could explain why the scene bugs me so hard, and why arguments people make to defend it make it even worse.
-
I'm making the point that it can't be objectification.
He isn't treating them like objects.
He tells the girls to go find another, younger man. Advising them on what's best for them.
I can understand if you feel uncomfortable with a girls bra being taken off but don't call it something it isn't.
Also this is a comic that depicts intense violence on a regular basis, with people being shot, stabbed, impaled etc. Senor Pink taking off a girls top to use as a hankie is hardly the worst thing Oda has ever drawn.
Yes it is objectification. In Senior Pinks point of view it's not. But as the reader it shows objectification for women. There is a distinction.
I am not uncomfortable with a girls bra being taken off. I am uncomfortable with a female being depicted to enjoy her own sexual assault.
-
I'm making the point that it can't be objectification.
He isn't treating them like objects.
He tells the girls to go find another, younger man. Advising them on what's best for them.
I can understand if you feel uncomfortable with a girls bra being taken off but don't call it something it isn't.
Also this is a comic that depicts intense violence on a regular basis, with people being shot, stabbed, impaled etc. Senor Pink taking off a girls top to use as a hankie is hardly the worst thing Oda has ever drawn.
But fighting and stabbing and strife and war are what we come to read One Piece for, along with of course the comedic and adventure elements. The same can not be said for boob dwarves and bikini swiping.
-
A necessary set-up chapter, I was at first slightly deflated on seeing the scans but reading it again i appreciate that Oda has to get in with the actual story instead of just wowing readers with more plot twists being set up. Also I'm wondering if Trebol who leads the Special Powers army has more wacky, hax abilities up his sleeve than just being an obvious Logia (since Logias now are no longer invincible in the NW)
Can't wait to see Franky beat down Senor Pink and Robin and Usopp take charge underground. Finally some much needed spotlight for the secondary SH members.
-
That's true if you went around and ripped off a girls bra without consent and she was happy with it because she found you attractive you wouldn't have charges pressed against you. But the fact that you ripped off the girls bra without consent fulfills the requirement of sexual assault at law in a strict sense. He didn't know she would consent, he just did what he wanted because she was an object.
Similary, if you didn't know that people you shoot at are unarmed civilians, it would not make you automaticaly innocent. But somehow Franky get's a free pass from people. Weird.
-
It's okay too find the Senor Pink scene funny. It's okay to find the Senor Pink scene disturbing. However, neither the comedy nor the seriousness of it take away from the fact it's a negative portrayal of an antagonist. And that is actually the point?
I assume if Oda had Pink use another element of the girl's clothing to wipe his mouth, probably no one would pay the scene any mind.
-
Can these girls be considerd masochistic to a degree?
-
Senior Pink sure has balls. What do you guys think his fruit is? Swimming in concrete… Amazing.
-
It's okay too find the Senor Pink scene funny. It's okay to find the Senor Pink scene disturbing. However, neither the comedy nor the seriousness of it take away from the fact it's a negative portrayal of an antagonist. And that is actually the point?
I assume if Oda had Pink use another element of the girl's clothing to wipe his mouth, probably no one would pay the scene any mind.
That´s what i said 2 pages ago but nobody apparently gives a fuck about it
-
Similary, if you didn't know that people you shoot at are unarmed civilians, it would not make you automaticaly innocent. But somehow Franky get's a free pass from people. Weird.
Well an applicable example would be in war you were raiding an enemy base and shot at enemy soldiers and there happened to be civilians there, i.e. civilian casualties. Innocence would be judged on your knowledge of innocent people in the group, which I think for Franky he assumes they are all enemies.
-
I thought most people in the women thread didn't like scenes where Sanji (and recently Zoro) "whiteknighted" and refused to injure/fight seriously female enemies. Pink's groupies are clearly enemies. Fodder, yes, but they'd defend Pink like raving lunatic groupies would, so Franky's totally cool to blast them away.
Nothing about that failure of an argument of yours negates that it was a very awkward and uncomfortable scene to some of us that could have been constructed in a much better way. They still could've had a rockstar/groupies dynamic and Pink could have still been protrayed as disgusting. Oda's made disgusting villains before without resorting to awkward and unfunny "gags" to characterize them as such.
But of course, Oda is above failure. In Pell we trust. Amen.
Lol what?
I dunno where that little lecture came from tbh.
I've never said that Oda is above failure. I have problems with Oda's writing at certain points just like everyone else does.
However, the hysteria people are going though because of Senor Pink taking a girls top off and then actively NOT treating her as an object is a bit much for my taste.
Oda's has made some questionable decisions when it comes to women in his manga. My main problem would be the lack of strong female fighters, and that even those female fighters are mollycoddled and protected at every turn. Compare that to Videl getting the crap kicked out her by Spopovitch and yeah, it starts to make Oda look a bit sexist on occasion.
This incident with Senor Pink, however, is a complete overreaction from several posters in my estimation.
_"_Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!" - Auron
-
It's okay too find the Senor Pink scene funny. It's okay to find the Senor Pink scene disturbing. However, neither the comedy nor the seriousness of it take away from the fact it's a negative portrayal of an antagonist. And that is actually the point?
I assume if Oda had Pink use another element of the girl's clothing to wipe his mouth, probably no one would pay the scene any mind.
Because if he had used another element of her clothing, it wouldn't be swiping her bikini top for a cheap hyuk hyuk bazinga.
-
It's okay too find the Senor Pink scene funny. It's okay to find the Senor Pink scene disturbing. However, neither the comedy nor the seriousness of it take away from the fact it's a negative portrayal of an antagonist. And that is actually the point?
I assume if Oda had Pink use another element of the girl's clothing to wipe his mouth, probably no one would pay the scene any mind.
That's fine and that is the point Oda was trying to make but it wasn't a comfortable scene. Removing a girls bra without consent is sexual assault. I guess it depends on what he did to the girl and her reaction to see if I personally had a problem with it. Here as others have said it could have been done better by Oda. If they were groupies it could have shown them throwing their bras to Senior Pink or whatever.
-
But fighting and stabbing and strife and war are what we come to read One Piece for, along with of course the comedic and adventure elements. The same can not be said for boob dwarves and bikini swiping.
Not everybody reads the same material for the same reasons.
If you can handle strife, stabbing, strife and war, it's a bit over the top that you can't handle Senor Pink's actions in this chapter.
_"_Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!" - Auron
-
so Doflamingo almost has as many important subordinates as whitebeard
he's got 15 (well 14 if you count violets betrayal) well other Yonko's like Shanks and Black Beard have 9
I wonder if other crews are gonna be this huge or if it's just because he's so well connected
-
Not everybody reads the same material for the same reasons.
If you can handle strife, stabbing, strife and war, it's a bit over the top that you can't handle Senor Pink's actions in this chapter.
It's tonally jarring. See the hypothetical Spandam-sticks-a-finger-in-Robin's-mouth example from earlier.
-
Block D will still be going on when Luffy becomes pirate king…
-
Yes it is objectification. In Senior Pinks point of view it's not. But as the reader it shows objectification for women. There is a distinction.
I am not uncomfortable with a girls bra being taken off. I am uncomfortable with a female being depicted to enjoy her own sexual assault.
No. No it's not. How can it be objectification if the guy performing said act isn't objectifying her? How can reading a comic where a scene involves a woman not being objectified make us as readers, objectify her? That makes no sense.
-
Lol what?
I dunno where that little lecture came from tbh.
I've never said that Oda is above failure. I have problems with Oda's writing at certain points just like everyone else does.
However, the hysteria people are going though because of Senor Pink taking a girls top off and then actively NOT treating her as an object is a bit much for my taste.
Oda's has made some questionable decisions when it comes to women in his manga. My main problem would be the lack of strong female fighters, and that even those female fighters are mollycoddled and protected at every turn. Compare that to Videl getting the crap kicked out her by Spopovitch and yeah, it starts to make Oda look a bit sexist on occasion.
This incident with Senor Pink, however, is a complete overreaction from several posters in my estimation.
If you want to understand my reasons I find it bad because in real life people get sexually assaulted and raped every day and are put in prison for it. If you were to rip off a girls bra suddenly and she was upset about it you would end up in jail. The act is pretty vulgar in that sense. The fact that she turned around and still adored him after getting sexually assaulted and having something occur to her that could put that person in jail for years is just something that rubs me the wrong way.
Anyway my personal opinion.
-
The bra scenes was a gag. One Piece is a neutered pirate manga though. Pirates are known for raping and pillaging places they attack. If this was a Seinen manga, it'll be full of the evil pirates raping like crazy. If raping offends you, the last thing you should be reading is a manga based on pirates.
-
That's not the problem of the villain. Villain does a bad thing - fine, that constitutes him as despicable bad guy. But the ladies being mistreated cheering for him and being happy about public humiliation happening for one of them - there's no explanation and no excuse - that straightforward horrible and disrespectful to all the women who are reading this.
Should all the male readers in the world feel offended and afraid of their safety when Violet goes around stabbing males passionately?
Senor pink literally sees the girls as kids, he doesn't even want them to stick to him in the first place, and there you project your own imaginary personalities into him and call this bad writing - WOW!
-
No. No it's not. How can it be objectification if the guy performing said act isn't objectifying her? How can reading a comic where a scene involves a woman not being objectified make us as readers, objectify her? That makes no sense.
Because Oda is displaying his art to the reader. What happens has wider representations that just assuming Senior Pinks point of view. If we assume Hody Jones' point of view his murder of people is justified due to hatred but Oda was making a wider commentary on racism. Do you see the difference?
-
It's okay too find the Senor Pink scene funny. It's okay to find the Senor Pink scene disturbing. However, neither the comedy nor the seriousness of it take away from the fact it's a negative portrayal of an antagonist. And that is actually the point?
I don't think that this is really apperant, given the girls reaction, and the comedic framing of the scene. In a series like One Piece, if someone does something intended to make us hate him, Oda makes this abundantly clear, by inserting a negative reaction to the action in-series.
Most we get here is Franky going "pervert", which is itself a joke.Think of it this way: picture Pink as a Tenryuubito, and the girl as his slave wife, or a random bystander. The scene, the reactions, and the overall tone, would have gone down completely differently. The air would be thick with "look at this detestably sexist scumbag, hate him", like it was when st. Carlos claimed that nurse as his wife.
What I'm saying is: I don't get that vibe at all from the Pink scene. I don't get "fucking evil creep!" I get "haha, hot women love gross manbaby!" -
It's tonally jarring. See the hypothetical Spandam-sticks-a-finger-in-Robin's-mouth example from earlier.
Jarring?
If you can read about Ace getting a magma fist through the torso and have no problem, but then start flipping your shit about a girls bra being taken off, then I don't think there's any point in us having this conversation anymore.
_"_Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!" - Auron
-
The bra scenes was a gag. One Piece is a neutered pirate manga though. Pirates are known for raping and pillaging places they attack. If this was a Seinen manga, it'll be full of the evil pirates raping like crazy. If raping offends you, the last thing you should be reading is a manga based on pirates.
If this was a Seinen based on real pirates, Luffy would make Guts look like a saint…
-
The bra scenes was a gag. One Piece is a neutered pirate manga though. Pirates are known for raping and pillaging places they attack. If this was a Seinen manga, it'll be full of the evil pirates raping like crazy. If raping offends you, the last thing you should be reading is a manga based on pirates.
It's not a seinen manga. This shit ain't Gantz. You don't have to have pirates raping and pillaging or being fully evil vagabonds, of course not. But it's still a bad scene.
-
Should all the male readers in the world feel offended and afraid of their safety when Violet goes around stabbing males passionately?
Senor pink literally sees the girls as kids, he doesn't even want them to stick to him in the first place, and there you project your own imaginary personalities into him and call this bad writing - WOW!
Do we condone the actions of Violet randomly stabbing men? No.
Was the victim of sexual assault portrayed to enjoy the assault? Yes.
-
Those "extreme feminists" don't exist here.
And it's where you might come off as biased…
Look, honestly I've always been on the women's side and acknowledged there exist a disparity of treatment and...well...everything.
After reading what some people on the side of women here I thought "either I'm doing it wrong" or "they're just mentally derailed"And, honestly, I think that venting one's (right) frustration over internet against a stranger is so comfy and vile.
If I want to fight for something I lift my buttcheeks from the chair and go protest in the real life, if I come to AP (or any other forum) is to have fun, have laughters and good time and gather with people I share a passion with, not to jump on other people's jugular veins because they don't share my vision.Proud Kintama Owner 
-
Jarring?
If you can read about Ace getting a magma fist through the torso and have no problem, but then start flipping your shit about a girls bra being taken off, then I don't think there's any point in us having this conversation anymore.
What am I going to do, balk at all high danger and death? There'd be no stakes if that didn't happen. Ace's death was hugely impactful to the series and his last words had meaning. This is a throwaway gag. Senor Pink could have also shown his evilness by poking an eye out of her head or something, and that also would have been tonally jarring.
-
-
Jarring?
If you can read about Ace getting a magma fist through the torso and have no problem, but then start flipping your shit about a girls bra being taken off, then I don't think there's any point in us having this conversation anymore.
You aren't understanding the issue. Even if someone was sexually assaulted in One Piece by a villain it wouldn't be making me complain about the scene because of the fact a sexual assault occurred.
The fact that the girl assaulted appeared to enjoy it shows the female as nothing more than an object. Your lack of understanding to previous explanation shows that you are the person who should not be talking about this issue anymore.
-
And it's where you might come off as biased…
Look, honestly I've always been on the women's side and acknowledged there exist a disparity of treatment and...well...everything.
After reading what some people on the side of women here I thought "either I'm doing it wrong" or "they're just mentally derailed"And, honestly, I think that venting one's (right) frustration over internet against a stranger is so comfy and vile.
If I want to fight for something I lift my buttcheeks from the chair and go protest in the real life, if I come to AP (or any other forum) is to have fun, have laughters and good time and gather with people I share a passion with, not to jump on other people's jugular veins because they don't share my vision.Sorry we can't be all flowers and rainbows all the time. And that's still a stupid argument. So I see something that bothers me in a chapter, and the correct response is to… drop everything and commit to real world activism to solve that problem in general? I don't want to. I just want to enjoy the damn manga.
-
If you want to understand my reasons I find it bad because in real life people get sexually assaulted and raped every day and are put in prison for it. If you were to rip off a girls bra suddenly and she was upset about it you would end up in jail. The act is pretty vulgar in that sense. The fact that she turned around and still adored him after getting sexually assaulted and having something occur to her that could put that person in jail for years is just something that rubs me the wrong way.
Anyway my personal opinion.
Yeah if I went up to a random girl in the street and ripped her bra off, yeah she'd be upset. It'd be sexual assault. I'd get done for it.
These girls follow Senor Pink around because of his fame, wearing bikinis and are all over him. He takes one of their tops off for a totally asexual reason. She enjoys it.
You can group those together as both being "sexual assualt"…but they're completely different.
If I lay a finger on someone without their consent, literally one finger, it can technically be called assault. It's not the same as kicking them in the head.
They both fall under "assault" but could not be more different.
Senor Pink did not rape anybody. There are shades of grey, not just black and white. Jeez.
-
Because Oda is displaying his art to the reader. What happens has wider representations that just assuming Senior Pinks point of view. If we assume Hody Jones' point of view his murder of people is justified due to hatred but Oda was making a wider commentary on racism. Do you see the difference?
Oda is displaying Senor Pink as Doflamingo henchman which seen in this manga as the evil's side. I thing OP's readers understand what's Oda trying to do…
