The aberrations of One Piece

[valiantt]

Censoring is a terrible thing and I feel OP and Oda has often succumbed to making it too accessible for the general audience which in itself may be a good thing, but overall, I feel it stifles a lot of potential creative processes and design. We are probably left clueless with a lot of designs or content that was potentially edited out to suit the interest of the overall audience (children). But I am certain a lot of these exist, to which I like to direct my focus to the most glaring edit that continues to mar OP's credibility.

And to this very day it irks me why such a significant design was removed (which is actually symbolically relevant message associated with the notion of the whitebeard pirates) to a rather generic design.

Now let is discuss, do you feel OP/Oda should have succumbed to the demands of the overall audience that he caters towards and thus modify his comic/content to suit their interests? Or do you feel such changes are necessary? There is certainly nothing wrong here with the utilization of the "manji". It is safe to assume he did not hold any sinister motivations for utilizing such a symbol so why is there a need to change it ultimately?

[desa]

I really don't think the change was necessary. The signs aren't the same, even if they can be confuse and it actually a symbol of piece if I remember correctly. And more importantly the isn't what counts but the mentality of those who use it as their symbol. The Whitebeard were a family who were there to support each other and the symbol perfectly illustrate that. They would have been bad guys it would have mean they twist the meaning of the sign and there still would be no reason to change it.

It uselessly change a good baddass Jolly roger into a simple cross-bone with a face on it. I always imagine the Whitebeard death with the original symbol.

[valiantt]

That's right. Why are people so crazy? It's not like Oda intended for the Whitebeards to be evil sobs that go around slaughtering people. I mean couldn't people read into that when they were portrayed? It is wholly unnecessary because people don't THINK and just automatically go with their gut instinct on the image's most common interpretation (even if it is one that is NOT commonly utilized in Japan or East Asia as a whole). So whose fault is it then? Who was it that deemed such an image inappropriate that it required a complete edit that somewhat distracts rather than improves upon the content of the story?

[desa]

@valiantt:

That's right. Why are people so crazy? It's not like Oda intended for the Whitebeards to be evil sobs that go around slaughtering people. I mean couldn't people read into that when they were portrayed? It is wholly unnecessary because people don't THINK and just automatically go with their gut instinct on the image's most common interpretation (even if it is one that is NOT commonly utilized in Japan or East Asia as a whole). So whose fault is it then? Who was it that deemed such an image inappropriate that it required a complete edit that somewhat distracts rather than improves upon the content of the story?

The funniest thing is that I didn't I didn't even realize the sign could be problematic until they actually change it. Only then did I realize it kind of looked like the Nazi cross.

[RobZilla]

@desa:

The funniest thing is that I didn't I didn't even realize the sign could be problematic until they actually change it. Only then did I realize it kind of looked like the Nazi cross.

Yeah I didn't look at it as resembling a swastika until I read about the whole issue. An editor's note could just as easily have sorted the confusion really, there was no need to change the design.

[D.aelthasaar]

You know what?
It's despicable that a culture must restrain to use a very significant symbol, a positive one nonetheless, because another culture stole it and made it something people is afraid of.
People is so gullible when they get pissed about the usage of some graphism and get offended.

[Maju]

what i don't understand is why the manji in other shonen jump series like bleach is still there,while the one in onepiece had to be removed.

but it's also to said that i prefer black kuma to orange kuma,and that too is a change that was "forced" on Oda

[RobZilla]

@Maju:

what i don't understand is why the manji in other shonen jump series like bleach is still there,while the one in onepiece had to be removed.

but it's also to said that i prefer black kuma to orange kuma,and that too is a change that was "forced" on Oda

Yeah but a stylistic colour change is a whole different kettle of fish from "they'll think the whitebeard pirates are nazis"

[grunk]

Apparently Oda said it was on orders from Shuesha (who own WSJ). Maybe Kubo got around it by making it a key point of the main character, making it more difficult for them to pester him to change it. I can't remember where, but I remember Kubo being somewhat outspoken on political issues whereas Oda is more laid back so that might figure into it as well.

[Robby]

Because while a person can be smart, people are dumb. The history and origin of the manji symbol is, well… unknown to a lot a people, and most people need to have it explained to them that that it is not the nazi symbol, and even then they don't quite get it.

@Maju:

what i don't understand is why the manji in other shonen jump series like bleach is still there,while the one in onepiece had to be removed.

Because One Piece has a wider (by several million) , and younger, audience… and Oda actually cares about what messages he might be sending to the kids or what a confusion or unneeded controversy might do.

but it's also to said that i prefer black kuma to orange kuma,and that too is a change that was "forced" on Oda

Where is it stated that was "forced" upon him?

The anime had Kuma in black sure, and he later adopted that… but that's a case where
a) He didn't have Kuma's colors displayed anywhere prior to the anime getting to it, or in any significant color images until well after the change. (I think he was maybe n one massive spread of dozens of characters as a headshot where you could see Kuma's collar?)

b)the black actually looks way better.

It may be a case where, like with Chopper's cutification, he saw what the anime was doing and liked their way better, so adapted it to his own.

[TheCrystalShip]

@RobbyBevard:

It may be a case where, like with Chopper's cutification, he saw what the anime was doing and liked their way better, so adapted it to his own.

Wait, is this actually true? Because if so, I don't know if I'm going to feel better or worse about it.

[Robby]

@TheCrystalShip:

Wait, is this actually true? Because if so, I don't know if I'm going to feel better or worse about it.

I phrased that badly, don't get the wrong impression. That one at least was actually in an SBS or an interview or something. (It all blends together now.)

It's not that the anime changed the design without consulting him and Oda had to follow suit… but that one of his friends showed him something that he liked and he ran with it. He was hanging out with one of the animators and the animator did a design of cuter chopper, and Oda liked it, and so started tweaking Chopper bit by bit... and the anime slowly but surely followed suit.

[John.Rambo]

That's the main issue I have with all this public enforcement of political correctness, it is preposterous that just because some random idiot/idiots might be offended by some equally random thing, therefore that thing must be suppressed. I believe it to be more important to educate people and not let them being overly sensitive about things from other cultures out of sheer ignorance.

P.S. I'm not that great in english so…

[RomanceDawn]

@TheCrystalShip:

Wait, is this actually true? Because if so, I don't know if I'm going to feel better or worse about it.

It is absolutely true. If I remember correctly didn't Oda want Chopper to not be an over cutesy mascot but then he just naturally transitioned into that?

[King Cannon]

Cuter Chopper is also probably easier to draw too, being smaller and with less features.

[Monkey King]

Chopper went from weird to cute VERY quickly, like "by the end of Alabasta" quickly.

[1234entak]

The story is in Green Secret Pieces databook. Oda tried to emulate a reindeer's snout when first drawing Chopper, but after seeing anime Chopper with that voice… the rest is history.

[Cymelion]

@TheCrystalShip:

Wait, is this actually true? Because if so, I don't know if I'm going to feel better or worse about it.

I am willing to bet that Oda will adapt the latest Anime's version of Armament Haki - since it looks so awesome.

Oda's interactions with the people animating his series is clearly different from the norm of Manga artists.

[Maju]

@RobbyBevard:

Because One Piece has a wider (by several million) , and younger, audience… and Oda actually cares about what messages he might be sending to the kids or what a confusion or unneeded controversy might do.

didn't we already had a poll that said that roughly 80% of the reader of onepiece are 18 and older?

[Robby]

@Maju:

didn't we already had a poll that said that roughly 80% of the reader of onepiece are 18 and older?

Thats because they GREW UP ON IT. A 12 year old that started reading OP 15 years ago is 27 now. Of course a huge chunk of audience gained over the last 15 years is over 18… the series has been running almost that long!

Doesn't change the target audience or who the magazine is geared for, or who Oda is most concerned about. I'm sure he loves that readers stick around and it appeals to all ages... but his target is still 12 year old boys.

Oda cares a GREAT deal about the kids and the messages he sends, and as he's become more and more aware of that audience and influence, he's responded to it in his own way. It ain't editors telling Oda to tone it down, he's taking that responsibility upon himself. (Editors might mention the fact, but its clearly Oda himself running with it to the degree he does.)

The "no small character deaths" policy he's cemented in place since Skypeia is a much more glaring, ongoing and problematic thing than the changing of Whitebeard's flag, since that actually affects the story... far more than a single visual does.

[Maju]

@RobbyBevard:

Thats because they GREW UP ON IT. A 12 year old that started reading OP 15 years ago is 27 now. Of course a huge chunk of audience gained over the last 15 years is over 18… the series has been running almost that long!

Doesn't change the target audience or who the magazine is geared for, or who Oda is most concerned about. I'm sure he loves that readers stick around and it appeals to all ages... but his target is still 12 year old boys.

of course they grew up on it,that doesn't change the fact that his audience is not younger than bleach,that it is a shonen too and still managed to keep its manji symbol in place.

[Robby]

@Maju:

his audience is not younger than bleach,t

His TARGET audience IS. They're in the same magazine sure, but Oda is writing towards the kids, Kubo isn't. I don't for even one second see Kubo trying to make the younger audience like his stuff. He's all style and cool and appealing to an older crowd, no substance.

Again, Oda censors himself. Its quite possible that no one actually asked him to change the manji… the same way no one asks him to keep minor characters alive... but that the anime or merchandising staff staff said "we'll have to change this in the anime, is that okay?" and Oda then went "Oh, that's a problem? I didn't realize it might be. Well, I'll adjust mine as well then!"

Or, he got a letter from some 8 year old, or a mother, that asked "why does whitebeard have a nazi symbol" and he went "oooh no, not letting THAT confusion happen." Oda's own judgement.

Bleach can keep it because Kubo doesn't care and the target audience isn't as young.

Again, its weird that you're all focusing on that one small visual edit, when theres much much bigger clearly self-imposed storytelling restrictions that no one but Oda possibly puts onto himself, given their consistency and what he says in interviews. Its what Oda does. He concerns himself with the 12 year olds, far more than any editor possibly could.

[grunk]

@RobbyBevard:

His TARGET audience IS. They're in the same magazine sure, but Oda is writing towards the kids, Kubo isn't. I don't for even one second see Kubo trying to make the younger audience like his stuff. He's all style and cool and appealing to an older crowd, no substance.

Again, Oda censors himself. Its quite possible that no one actually asked him to change the manji… the same way no one asks him to keep minor characters alive... but that the anime or merchandising staff staff said "we'll have to change this in the anime, is that okay?" and Oda then went "Oh, that's a problem? I didn't realize it might be. Well, I'll adjust mine as well then!"

Or, he got a letter from some 8 year old, or a mother, that asked "why does whitebeard have a nazi symbol" and he went "oooh no, not letting THAT confusion happen." Oda's own judgement.

Bleach can keep it because Kubo doesn't care and the target audience isn't as young.

Again, its weird that you're all focusing on that one small visual edit, when theres much much bigger clearly self-imposed storytelling restrictions that no one but Oda possibly puts onto himself, given their consistency and what he says in interviews. Its what Oda does. He concerns himself with the 12 year olds, far more than any editor possibly could.

I think Oda wants to please everyone, it comes across in his writing. It's accessible to people who read it now as a youngster and people in their late 20s or later. WSJ was probably worried about the international audience, and politely asked him and he agreed, wanting to share his work with as many people as possible.
It's likely that this hadn't even occurred to him as, without getting too much into politics (and hopefully this doesn't turn into a politics thread, as this is a touchy issue), there isn't really any "Anti-Nazi" sentiments in Asia except for pockets and they don't view the narrative of WW2 the same way we do.
Kubo is a different story, as he made it a major part of his main character so he was able to wedge it in there. I remember reading where he first went bankai and laughing at how he was able to get away with it. He isn't a "please everyone" type either, he likes to do his own thing mostly. And I think Bleach appeals more to kids actually, they like the sort of "action movie" super powerful type manga more easily then other stuff. One Piece has mass appeal because it's just an incredible narrative that has everything: drama, action, comedy. I'll always be a fan of it because of this, and I'm just as big a fan now as I was 10 years ago when I started reading it.. in some ways more because I can appreciate how well done it actually is.

[Supernova122]

but … the manji is a symbol write? And a Kanji? Like if it's literally showing up IN WRITING, I don't see how it would cause any such fuss domestically. For example, isn't 'bankai' written with a manji in Bleach?

Internationally is surely where the issue lies (which is certainly not the principal demographic!) and even then it's interesting to not that we still get the original symbol when Ace appears on Buggy's ship etc, which is well after Ace's original appearance. That said, I guess localisation does take forever.

[Maju]

@grunk:

I think Oda wants to please everyone, it comes across in his writing. It's accessible to people who read it now as a youngster and people in their late 20s or later. WSJ was probably worried about the international audience, and politely asked him and he agreed, wanting to share his work with as many people as possible.
It's likely that this hadn't even occurred to him as, without getting too much into politics (and hopefully this doesn't turn into a politics thread, as this is a touchy issue), there isn't really any "Anti-Nazi" sentiments in Asia except for pockets and they don't view the narrative of WW2 the same way we do.
Kubo is a different story, as he made it a major part of his main character so he was able to wedge it in there. I remember reading where he first went bankai and laughing at how he was able to get away with it. He isn't a "please everyone" type either, he likes to do his own thing mostly. And I think Bleach appeals more to kids actually, they like the sort of "action movie" super powerful type manga more easily then other stuff. One Piece has mass appeal because it's just an incredible narrative that has everything: drama, action, comedy. I'll always be a fan of it because of this, and I'm just as big a fan now as I was 10 years ago when I started reading it.. in some ways more because I can appreciate how well done it actually is.

16 char of exactly

[Robby]

Also, for those pointing towards Ichigo's sword… for starters, I had to really wrack my brain to think of what everyone was even referring to, before I realized it was a detail on Ichigo's sword, and now I don't see why anyone is thinking its a comparison at all.

From the side, or almost any angle at all except straight down, you can't even see the manji.

Plus, its colored in black, more rectangular in shape (so not symetrical), has that hole in it changing the overall silhouette and shape, and is wedged between a sword blade and a handle so its not seen straight on very often at all. Sure its a regular detail, but it's very distorted and not all that prominent.

If it was a large, colored white, flat prominent symbol on the back of Ichigo's coat (like in Blade of the Immortal) and regularly seen on flags, then it might draw more attention and be a problem.

As is, its a cosmetic detail that bears far less resemblance to the nazi flag than… well... Whitebeard's did.

[Maju]

@RobbyBevard:

Also, for those pointing towards Ichigo's sword… for starters, I had to really wrack my brain to think of what everyone was even referring to, before I realized it was a detail on Ichigo's sword, and now I don't see why anyone is thinking its a comparison at all.

http://www.swordsswords.com/images/products/detail/ichigo_tensa_bankai_sword_cutting_Moon_1.jpg

From the side, or almost any angle at all except straight down, you can't even see the manji.

Plus, its colored in black, more rectangular in shape (so not symetrical), has that hole in it changing the overall silhouette and shape, and is wedged between a sword blade and a handle so its not seen straight on very often at all. Sure its a regular detail, but it's very distorted and not all that prominent.

If it was a large, colored white, flat prominent symbol on the back of Ichigo's coat (like in Blade of the Immortal) and regularly seen on flags, then it might draw more attention and be a problem.

As is, its a cosmetic detail that bears far less resemblance to the nazi flag than… well... Whitebeard's did.

[Robby]

Oh, was that after Aizen?

I forgot that the series kept running.

Its still not big, blocky, and white, exactly like the swastika looks, the way Whitebeard's was.

[werewulfking]

Here in Germany they edited the symbol in chapter 157 of One Piece and all following pages where it is shown on Ace's back they don't show any background at all. But of course the symbol is actually forbidden to use although there exist exeptions for art but the publisher most likely didn't want to have even the slightest problem with it.
But I really want to know how they handled the Fullbring in Bleach. I have to look it up in a bookstore.

[RKTGX95]

@RobbyBevard:

He concerns himself with the 12 year olds, far more than any editor possibly could.

i remember that Oda actually once said in an interview (~2 years ago if i remember correctly) that he writes to the the 15 year old teen target audience, which includes the 15 year old teen boy in everyone. (though i might be wrong on this).

[No Maam]

@RobbyBevard:

Oh, was that after Aizen?

I forgot that the series kept running.

Its still not big, blocky, and white, exactly like the swastika looks, the way Whitebeard's was.

That's from "Chad's arc" as the story was described by Kubo.

You know, where Chad and Orihime don't even have bit parts and then get brainwashed and then get told by the guy who did it they were brainwashed yet they don't care about it and still keep defending the guy in his attempts to kill Ichigo.

Anyway I don't much care about the change but I do think it was for the better cause, yeah, people are dumb.

[Robby]

@No:

That's from "Chad's arc" as the story was described by Kubo.

You know, where Chad and Orihime don't even have bit parts and then get brainwashed and then get told by the guy who did it they were brainwashed yet they don't care about it and still keep defending the guy in his attempts to kill Ichigo.

No idea what you're talking about.

Sounds awful.

[No Maam]

@RobbyBevard:

No idea what you're talking about.

Sounds awful.

Allow me to explain. Because fuck Kubo.

! After the Arrancar arc ended and Orihime and Chad had not done anything for like three years real time, he promised the next arc would be "Chad's arc". Which was about these assholes who claim they got hollow powers (aka fullbring) cause their mothers were attacked by hollows, which is now the origin of Chad's powers btw. And turns out they just wanted to get Ichigo's fullbring (cause of course he has one, ontop of also being revealed to have Qunci powers recently).
! And one of those bad guy is a guy who alters your past when he touches you (he also somehow timetravels and affects inanimate objects and can have backstories and do things that are clearly impossible, f.e. when he cut Byakuya he somehow made Byakuya think he trained him, even though he's a human and Byakuya is a shinigami that's lived for hundreds of yeas. This never gets questioned)
! This fucker then brainwashes Orihime and Chad to think he was the one who saved Rukia and beat Aizen, and even when he's attacking Ichigo with a sword they're both defending him from Ichigo's attacks and yelling at Ichigo to "aplogise to Tsukishima-san".
! Then during the fight the dude tells Ichigo that he changed their pasts, with both of them standing in the room. No reaction to this at all from either of them.
! Then when the SS show up they have to be knocked out for the rest of the arc by Urahara.
! Remember this is the arc Kubo claimed was going to be "about Chad".

[RobZilla]

@No:

Allow me to explain. Because fuck Kubo.

! After the Arrancar arc ended and Orihime and Chad had not done anything for like three years real time, he promised the next arc would be "Chad's arc". Which was about these assholes who claim they got hollow powers (aka fullbring) cause their mothers were attacked by hollows, which is now the origin of Chad's powers btw. And turns out they just wanted to get Ichigo's fullbring (cause of course he has one, ontop of also being revealed to have Qunci powers recently).
! And one of those bad guy is a guy who alters your past when he touches you (he also somehow timetravels and affects inanimate objects and can have backstories and do things that are clearly impossible, f.e. when he cut Byakuya he somehow made Byakuya think he trained him, even though he's a human and Byakuya is a shinigami that's lived for hundreds of yeas. This never gets questioned)
! This fucker then brainwashes Orihime and Chad to think he was the one who saved Rukia and beat Aizen, and even when he's attacking Ichigo with a sword they're both defending him from Ichigo's attacks and yelling at Ichigo to "aplogise to Tsukishima-san".
! Then during the fight the dude tells Ichigo that he changed their pasts, with both of them standing in the room. No reaction to this at all from either of them.
! Then when the SS show up they have to be knocked out for the rest of the arc by Urahara.
! Remember this is the arc Kubo claimed was going to be "about Chad".

I never knew that's how Kubo described the Fullbring Arc.

"An arc that marginally features Chad before being thrown back to into the black hole of irrelevance he's been wallowing in" would have been a better description.

[No Maam]

@RobZilla:

I never knew that's how Kubo described the Fullbring Arc.

"An arc that marginally features Chad before being thrown back to into the black hole of irrelevance he's been wallowing in" would have been a better description.

Why do I not remember seeing you in the Bleach thread ? :O

[RobZilla]

@No:

Why do I not remember seeing you in the Bleach thread ? :O

I don't post there much. It depresses me to post about 2 formerly good series that have gone into shocking decline.

[halt]

@RKTGX95:

i remember that Oda actually once said in an interview (~2 years ago if i remember correctly) that he writes to the the 15 year old teen target audience, which includes the 15 year old teen boy in everyone. (though i might be wrong on this).

If his target audience are kids under 18 what is his message by portraying Abdullah and Jeet as vicious looking gladiators - Jeet depicted as a stereotypical Arabian - with an explicit emphasis on their bombing of WG buildings.
Oda's primary intention is obviously to joke about those pro-wrestling guys but he should be also aware only a few are gong to recognize them or learn about that. So what is his message to those teens who are unaware of the actual purpose of this characterization? Provocation?

@valiantt:

Now let is discuss, do you feel OP/Oda should have succumbed to the demands of the overall audience that he caters towards and thus modify his comic/content to suit their interests? Or do you feel such changes are necessary? There is certainly nothing wrong here with the utilization of the "manji". It is safe to assume he did not hold any sinister motivations for utilizing such a symbol so why is there a need to change it ultimately?

If he wants to publish the manga under same rating he has to follow the ruling of the proper authority for youth protection. Apart from that, I consider any change in the manga to be his personal decision as he has enough influence not to be pressured by any criticism. But one can only speculate about his motivation for such a modification like that Swastika, it could be anything.

[Monkey King]

@halt:

If his target audience are kids under 18 what is his message by portraying Abdullah and Jeet as vicious looking gladiators

Abdullah the Butcher
Tiger Jeet Singh

Also I didn't realize Arab and Indian steretypes included gladiators. Otherwise why aren't you also randomly complaining about how there were Chinese themed characters (Kanokuni) and other real names like Terry and Bobby.

Jeet depicted as a stereotypical Arabian - with an explicit emphasis on their bombing of WG buildings.

It's touching to see how much you care about Arab stereotypes without knowing fucking anything about Arab culture enough to refer to a painfully obviously NOT Arab name…like Jeet...as Arab.
And also assuming the only people who wear turbans are Arabs. Even though turbans are EXTREMELY common culturally in South Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc), and other places like Iran, Aghanistan and historically places like Turkey and even parts of Europe like Albania. Including religious obligation for the entire Sikh male community. Truly a defender against stereotypes you are. By making them yourself.

So what is his message to those teens who are unaware of the actual purpose of this characterization? Provocation?

And here you assume that average western stereotypes are something applicable in Japan. Or maybe you just plain forgot where One Piece comes from. G'job.

[halt]

[hide]@Monkey:

Abdullah the Butcher
Tiger Jeet Singh

Also I didn't realize Arab and Indian steretypes included gladiators. Otherwise why aren't you also randomly complaining about how there were Chinese themed characters (Kanokuni) and other real names like Terry and Bobby.

It's touching to see how much you care about Arab stereotypes without knowing fucking anything about Arab culture enough to refer to a painfully obviously NOT Arab name…like Jeet...as Arab.
And also assuming the only people who wear turbans are Arabs. Even though turbans are EXTREMELY common culturally in South Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc), and other places like Iran, Aghanistan and historically places like Turkey and even parts of Europe like Albania. Including religious obligation for the entire Sikh male community. Truly a defender against stereotypes you are. By making them yourself.

[/hide]
You don't seem to have read my post appropriately nor it seems you understood my question at all. But I don't see a reason to explain myself again, yet.

@Monkey:

And here you assume that average western stereotypes are something applicable in Japan. Or maybe you just plain forgot where One Piece comes from. G'job.

Western stereotypes matter here just as well and are globally pretty well known. Moreover, it would've been more productive if you enlightened me about the differences of stereotypical views between the Western countries and Japan regarding this matter.

[NER]

@Monkey:

Abdullah the Butcher
Tiger Jeet Singh

Also I didn't realize Arab and Indian steretypes included gladiators. Otherwise why aren't you also randomly complaining about how there were Chinese themed characters (Kanokuni) and other real names like Terry and Bobby.

It's touching to see how much you care about Arab stereotypes without knowing fucking anything about Arab culture enough to refer to a painfully obviously NOT Arab name…like Jeet...as Arab.
And also assuming the only people who wear turbans are Arabs. Even though turbans are EXTREMELY common culturally in South Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc), and other places like Iran, Aghanistan and historically places like Turkey and even parts of Europe like Albania. Including religious obligation for the entire Sikh male community. Truly a defender against stereotypes you are. By making them yourself.

And here you assume that average western stereotypes are something applicable in Japan. Or maybe you just plain forgot where One Piece comes from. G'job.

!

[Johnny B. Decent]

@desa:

The funniest thing is that I didn't I didn't even realize the sign could be problematic until they actually change it. Only then did I realize it kind of looked like the Nazi cross.

It certainly would have been a problem with Marco's inverted tattoo.

[Monkey King]

@halt:

Moreover, it would've been more productive if you enlightened me about the differences of stereotypical views between the Western countries and Japan regarding this matter.

So I need to explain to you that Japan is not the same as the West in terms of history recent and long with the mideast and India and the stereotypes included therein?
That doesn't fucking need explaining. It's blatantly obvious. There's huge differences even among western countries, and you're skeptical of it being even more different with Japan?? Really??

Western stereotypes matter here just as well and are globally pretty well known.

Oda's primary audience will be always and forever Japan. And at best the secondary audience he would have in mind would be the nearby countries with lots of cash like Japan, like South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore. And Hong Kong as well I suppose.
The west is not on the radar, and it's hell of arrogant to assume we should be.

[halt]

@Monkey:

So I need to explain to you that Japan is not the same as the West in terms of history recent and long with the mideast and India and the stereotypes included therein?
That doesn't fucking need explaining. It's blatantly obvious. There's huge differences even among western countries, and you're skeptical of it being even more different with Japan?? Really??

So you don't know how a stereotypical terrorist would look like for Japanese, especially a teenager.

@Monkey:

Oda's primary audience will be always and forever Japan. And at best the secondary audience he would have in mind would be the nearby countries with lots of cash like Japan, like South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore. And Hong Kong as well I suppose.
The west is not on the radar, and it's hell of arrogant to assume we should be.

His caricature is based on a Western stereotype of an Arabic terrorist combined with the actual appearance of the wrestler.

[Monkey King]

Hmm, so in the US the average moron stereotype of the middle east would be….
That Arabia is like everything Muslim in that area.
So Turkey, Iran, and the actual Arab countries.
Pakistan is also Arab and in the middle east even though neither is true (Americans have a hard time figuring out Pakistan is literally just the western most extreme of greater India).
And it's all deserts. All of it.
Probably all of Turkey right up to the Bulgarian border is just sand and rocks, that suddenly turns green when you go over the border.

I wonder if those stereotypes are shared with Greeks? Probably the Greeks have their very own MUCH more detailed specific stereotypes!
Hell I know the Cypriots have very complex Arab stereotypes. I think they see like the peninsular/Iraq/North African Arabs in similar stereotypes as the US or Europe. But the Levantine Arabs? Like Syria? Lebanon? Palestine? Jordan? They don't have stereotypes of them so much. They have complicated neighborly views and relations and shared customs and foods with whatnot with them.

And then you have Iranian and Turkish stereotypes of Arabs, a whole other ball of fun there.

Oh and stereotypes among Arab countries. Like I'm sure Moroccans have a more sterotypical view of Syria than Cypriots for instance.

GEE I WONDER IF JAPAN CAN BE ASSUMED TO HAVE THE SAME VIEWS AS AMERICA.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@halt:

So you don't know how a stereotypical terrorist would look like for Japanese, especially a teenager.

I don't know. So against all common sense let's assume it's just like ours for no reason.

His caricature is based on a Western stereotype of an Arabic terrorist combined with the actual appearance of the wrestler.

Or literally just the wrestler. WHICH FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME, IS NOT ARAB, HE IS INDIAN.
A guy in that kind of turban waving a sword around brings to mind old movies set in the British fucking Raj. Not Arabia.

The wrestler is a cheap stereotype in the first place, like many wrestlers are. A stereotype of INDIA.
Oda could have used the Iron Sheik, a Persian guy who used stereotypes…of Arabs to wear a Bedouin hat thing (Persian's don't wear those lol).

The Abdullah guy? The one with the Arab name? THE ARAB ONE? is just based off a black dude with no ethnic stereotypes, nor is Oda's depiction remotely Arab looking in any particular way.
I dunno where you live even, but it's not uncommon for black Americans to have Islamic/Arab style names, even if they aren't Muslim. There's a random regular black dude football player in one of my classes now whose name is Muhammad.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Monkey:

This was how my dinner with my inlaws went also btw.

[halt]

@Monkey:

Or literally just the wrestler.

So after all this effort to lecture and passively insult me you answer to my original question is, I guess, this caricature is literally just about the wrestlers and Oda expects the targeted readers to recognize Jeet as a random Indian or at least West/South Asian, if not both as known wrestlers ,and that in general readers won't relate to any portrayal of a stereotypical view of Arabic terrorists or any other satire, nor was anything as such intended?!

[Monkey King]

@halt:

So after all this effort to lecture and passively insult me you answer to my original question is, I guess, this caricature is literally just about the wrestlers and Oda expects the targeted readers to recognize Jeet as a random Indian or at least West/South Asian,

No he expects them to recognize them as the wrestler. Did you miss the half dozen posts where people like CCC mentioned that pro-wrestling is popular in Japan?
And no!! For the final time, not West Asian, South Asia.

and that in general readers won't relate to any portrayal of a stereotypical view of Arabic terrorists or any other satire, nor was anything as such intended.

The fact that we in the west are so quick to jump to that, and an otherwise pretty aware guy like Oda did that should tell you ALL you need to know.

[halt]

@Monkey:

No he expects them to recognize them as the wrestler. Did you miss the half dozen posts where people like CCC mentioned that pro-wrestling is popular in Japan?
And no!! For the final time, not West Asian, South Asia.

The fact that we in the west are so quick to jump to that, and an otherwise pretty aware guy like Oda did that should tell you ALL you need to know.

I read those posts and I expected you to remember that discussion as well since you participated.
I included West Asia because you refer to it yourself.
I disagree with you answer but I don't see a point in continuing as it gets only more speculative.

[Monkey King]

@halt:

I read those posts and I expected you to remember that discussion as well since you participated.
I included West Asia because you refer to it yourself.

Yes, I referred to it like this.
"Jeet is not from West Asia" lol.

I disagree with you answer but I don't see a point in continuing as it gets only more speculative.

Do you seriously think you have the credibility on this topic to question this?
The guy who thought Jeet was Arab?

[*Meh*]

No, no, no.

That is not the proper response at all, Zeph.

The proper response in this instance is:

"Don't be gettin' all trollier-than-thou with me, you mere garden gnome! Your feeble attempts at trollery are mere amateurish pranks."

Yes, Halt, Abdullah the Butcher is pretty famous in Japan. He's even fairly well-known in the U.S. I can't speak for the wrestling fans in Europe and Mexico. Plus, he's alot more recent than, say, the Iron Sheik.

[DeeDee]

Yup, I also liked the original design better. It had style,unlike the new one. So it irks me too - both its disappearance and Oda giving (up his artistic freedom and giving) in to the pressure of political correctoids.

Yet this is only one instance of a bigger problem: Contemporary proliferation of petty moralists and parasitic do-gooders, who like to fabricate 'offensiveness' and then censor it 'for the greater good of us all' (the children included). You can see another instance of that right in this thread - an 'Arabian looking' characters committed a bomb attack, imagine it! I am offended to no end.

Seriously, parasitic do-gooders: Thank you for your concern. Now go to hell.