Second Round Discussion Thread
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I'm all for a Whitebeard vs Kuzan final.
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The final will be…
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Jinbe vs Doflamingo. Make it happen, Arlong Park.
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I'm all for Monet vs Sanji final. Some eyes shall bleed.
What, other predictions won't happen too -
Whever it does start, im unfortunately probably going to have to work all day :(
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I'm all for Monet vs Sanji final. Some eyes shall bleed.
What, other predictions won't happen tooKickin' me when I'm down!!! :ninja:
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Here some stats from the ranking system I used with the ratinglist after the first round. The x value is the mean absolute error and s the standard deviation.
Judging from the actual scores and predicted scores, close matches were predicted poorly. Also generally the predictions seem to be too low, so probably I need to use higher K value..
! Guess which match was the lowest red dot. )
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Doflamingo really ought to reach the finals this year.
It would be nice to see Bellamy go far too, but he's up against it, I think.
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@Señor:
! Guess which match was the lowest red dot. )
Law v.s DD :P 16 char
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Laboon vs Nami or Jinbe in the final of course.
Thanks @Glib -
Come on now, Caesar vs Bellamy would be the best finale. :X
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My picks. Surprisingly easy.
! 01. Doflamingo & Norland vs. Robin & Magellan
02. Monet & Sanji vs. Caesar & Buggy the Clowns
03. Jinbe & Akainu vs. Kuma & Bepo
04. Fisher Tiger & Bellamy vs. Whitebeard & Garp
05. Kuzan & Perona vs. Hancock & Mr. 3
06. Moriah & Shanks vs. Laboon & Nami
07. Franky & Zoro vs. Tyrannosaurus, Iceburg & Crocodile
08. Brook & Enel vs. Fujitora & CrocusSome of these tag teams are unstoppable: Doflamingo and Norland? Caesar and Buggy? Moriah and Shanks? Franky and Zoro? Brook and Enel? Those matches aren't even going to be close.
I just wish Croc had gotten a better matchup :/
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@Nex:
My picks. Surprisingly easy.
! 01. Doflamingo & Norland vs. Robin & Magellan
02. Monet & Sanji vs. Caesar & Buggy the Clowns
03. Jinbe & Akainu vs. Kuma & Bepo
04. Fisher Tiger & Bellamy vs. Whitebeard & Garp
05. Kuzan & Perona vs. Hancock & Mr. 3
06. Moriah & Shanks vs. Laboon & Nami
07. Franky & Zoro vs. Tyrannosaurus, Iceburg & Crocodile
08. Brook & Enel vs. Fujitora & CrocusSome of these tag teams are unstoppable: Doflamingo and Norland? Caesar and Buggy? Moriah and Shanks? Franky and Zoro? Brook and Enel? Those matches aren't even going to be close.
I just wish Croc had gotten a better matchup :/
gasp you're finding it easy to vote against Bellamy?
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@Señor:
Judging from the actual scores and predicted scores, close matches were predicted poorly.
Using a Preliminary Match (or other matches that allow multiple voting) is going to skew results, especially for somebody like Crocodile who usually under-performs in the Prelims compared to his track record in the Tournament itself. Plus it throws things out of whack for previous Champions like Luffy, Franky, and Usopp who have never been in a Prelim.
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Law v.s DD :P 16 char
I think it's Bon
Nope, but a hint would be the score.
Using a Preliminary Match (or other matches that allow multiple voting) is going to skew results, especially for somebody like Crocodile who usually under-performs in the Prelims compared to his track record in the Tournament itself. Plus it throws things out of whack for previous Champions like Luffy, Franky, and Usopp who have never been in a Prelim.
It should rather be true, but not necessarily: Robin, Whitebeard and Luffy were very close to the predicted score.
I think the problem is that I used a constant factor to adjust the rating. If I use a factor which reduces if a character is active and increases if not then the result is much better already. Also there seem to be much more close matches this year, and for close matches the prediction is less accurate naturally.
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01. Doflamingo & Norland vs. Robin & Magellan
Sorry Magellan, but you're teamed up with a Straw Hat, which I don't really want to see advance (except Brook). Also you're up against two really big guys, who are also to be loved.
02. Monet & Sanji vs. Caesar & Buggy the Clowns
03. Jinbe & Akainu vs. Kuma & Bepo
Jinbe's campaigns were great and Akainu is also pretty swell. The bears are good, but I feel they're kinda overrated.
04. Fisher Tiger & Bellamy vs. Whitebeard & Garp
Come on, people. Reformed Bellamy is awesome! Whitebeard already had his chance to shine.
05. Kuzan & Perona vs. Hancock & Mr. 3
I like Galdino and I like Kuzan, Perona is okay and Hancock is my least favorite OP character. Sorry, Mister 3.
06. Moriah & Shanks vs. Laboon & Nami
I'd like to vote for Moriah & Laboon, not so much for the other two. Probably up to campaigns, though right now I think I lean a bit more to the Moriah side, because Nami's a Straw Hat.
07. Franky & Zoro vs. Tyrannosaurus, Iceburg & Crocodile
My decision here should be clear, if you read the parts before. :P
08. Brook & Enel vs. Fujitora & Crocus
Brook is the only Straw Hat I want to advance and Enel is one of my favorite villains. The other two are cool though.
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Bellamy vs Kizaru maybe?
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gasp you're finding it easy to vote against Bellamy?
Considering his teammate and that he's up against Whitebeard and Garp, yes.
Also considering I hate this redemption garbage. Super! yes. -
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Prepare yourselves.
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Bellamy vs Kizaru maybe?
That or it's croc vs smoker
Nah, you shouldn´t focus only on the first round, there are 391 1vs1 matches… but a last hint, it´s not too long ago.
@Print:
Prepare yourselves.
Omfg… no forehead, no ears, no mouth + that nose... it´s gross. lol
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What really happened!
! @CaptainAppleJack:
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What really happened!
http://www.pictureshack.us/images/21383_traumatized.gifDefeated nonetheless. :P
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@Nex:
Considering his teammate and that he's up against Whitebeard and Garp, yes.
Also considering I hate this redemption garbage. Super! yes.Ouch. Is that a general thing or Bellamy's 'redemption' in particular?
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Ouch. Is that a general thing or Bellamy's 'redemption' in particular?
Bellamy's. I just feel like its random and unearned (so far.) Plus every time Oda makes him a little more likable, it takes away from Jaya and that punch. Thus, in my opinion, it weakens the Jaya arc every time, which disappoints me because it is one of my favorites, but it's dropped in my rankings.
*Note, there is a possibility that when everything is said and done my opinion might change, but at this moment this is how I feel.
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@Nex:
Bellamy's. I just feel like its random and unearned (so far.) Plus every time Oda makes him a little more likable, it takes away from Jaya and that punch. Thus, in my opinion, it weakens the Jaya arc every time, which disappoints me because it is one of my favorites, but it's dropped in my rankings.
*Note, there is a possibility that when everything is said and done my opinion might change, but at this moment this is how I feel.
Aahhh, it's a shame about that. I don't think that later events should take away from earlier events. At least in this sense. The way I view it, Bellamy as he is at Mock Town is still Bellamy as he was at Mock Town. He's still the voice of the non-dreamers, he's still a cruel-hearted guy who fully earns that punch. Because at the time you're reading Jaya, you're meeting this detestable Bellamy again, and you're building up to the climax again. So every time it's still that wonderful moment. At least for me.
Well, I like to read in the moment. Sometimes, I get surprised by things. Like how damn evil 3 was. Oh, and Mr 2 also. Maybe once this arc goes through and cements a likeable Bellamy in my head, it will start to surprise me on re-reading Jaya that he used to be like that. But I hope it won't weaken it.
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I find the logic that character developments coming at a future point can affect the past events in negative ways as silly as spoilers robbing one from full reading experience enjoyment.
If it's not a retcon, all is fair game.
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Gee, guys, it's a really annoying thing that Gorbachev accidentally made the Soviet Union collapse under its own weight because it takes away from the enjoyment of reminiscing how we used to beat them all the time in many ways!
This is the kind of logic that I'm seeing here, and yes, I'm suggesting that it's a bit flawed and flimsy. It sounds like you love holding grudges and think people don't deserve to ever change for the better if they have once lived according to ideals that ended up hurting them in the long run. To be honest, it doesn't sound like a particularly healthy or a pleasant view to have.
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Luffy's punch against Bellamy was so strong that it completely destroyed the truth he perceived up to that point and forced him to turn his mind around and pursue his dreams with a less cocky and much more open mind.
I don't know what you're talking about, current Bellamy made that punch even more meaningful since we get an idea of Luffy not just being someone bent on destroying his enemies but simply destroying the negative and evil ideas they happen to represent. And I respect that Oda doesn't have the perspective of someone being a villain meaning they're always going to be villanous caricatures of pure evil, but a perspective that shows that individuals are a product of choices and environment and have redeeming qualities when placed in the right conditions with the right attitude. Because that's how the world is, people aren't just jerks for the sake of being jerks, but because their poisonous situations led them to becoming that.
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I find the logic that character developments coming at a future point can affect the past events in negative ways as silly as spoilers robbing one from full reading experience enjoyment.
If it's not a retcon, all is fair game.
There's a huge difference between character development and a character showing up (hundreds of chapters later I might add) completely changed. There's no development there. Or, at least, we're missing all of it, which is bad writing. If there was maybe some foreshadowing, or a hint that bellamy would go this way when we last saw him it would be different. But the last time we saw Bellamy, we though he died.
Also, spoilers do take away from the full experience. You only get to see something for the first time once. Sure, watching Star Wars knowing X is Y's Z doesn't make it a bad experience, but it does take away from the story on your first watch.
Luffy's punch against Bellamy was so strong that it completely destroyed the truth he perceived up to that point and forced him to turn his mind around and pursue his dreams with a less cocky and much more open mind.
No it didn't. We saw in his confrontation with Doflamingo that getting his ass kicked by Luffy didn't change him at all. If anything changed him it would be Doffy sparing his life. Luffy's punch is so powerful for the reader because Bellamy is a complete an utter scumbag. Up to this point in the series he is one of the most awful people we've run into. He doesn't have Wapol's comedic tendencies, or Crocodile's suave-enough-to-be-endearing personality. The only person hanging with him is Arlong. You spend the whole arc waiting for Luffy to fight him, and when the time comes all those emotions you feel as a reader come out in one amazing blow.
For first time reader's it's stll the same, but going back and rereading it, those emotions are lessened by what I know now. I can't hate him as much. And I feel like by the end of this arc I won't be able to hate him at all.Think about if it was Arlong. If he came back and aided the crew and they somehow became friendly with him. Would that not affect the Arlong Arc at all? Could you read it again and still feel the exact same way as it? Hell no. That's why Oda chose the least threatening and most comedic of the Arlong Pirates to bring back.
No matter what, future "developments" are going to affect those that came before. That's the nature of storytelling. And, for me–on a personal level, these "developments" with Bellamy are affecting the events of Jaya negatively.
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The way I saw it Luffy's punches are powerful because of Luffy, not because of the people getting punched.
I found his punch against Bellamy huge in terms of how much stronger he was that he was ok letting Bellamy go all out without fighting back, but when Bellamy crossed the line Luffy had the power to stop him. It was a powerful punch because Luffy stood up for his dreams, and at that point Bellamy more than a character was the embodiment of that pessimistic, realistic attitude that dreams are for kids and fools.
Even if Bellamy joined the crew and became best buds with everyone, w.e. happens now doesn't change the fact that at that one point in time Luffy was the stronger man that stood up for the dreams of a generation.Of course, that's how I saw it. Still, I understand perfectly if people enjoyed those punches due to the awesome reward of seeing despicable people getting taken down. I just find it sad that you'd enjoy less such a magnificent story as was the Jaya arc because of later events.
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@Nex:
Bellamy's. I just feel like its random and unearned (so far.)
I actually agree with you on this, It's obvious that Oda is going to give him some big redemption, but for the time being, feeling bad for being given the mission of killing Luffy because Luffy cheered for him is no redemption in my eyes. As far I could tell, he's still the same cruel Jerk up until that cheer.
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Meanwhile some more stats, this time about the whole tournament. The number of voters and the number of the scores of all 391 predicted matches.
Number of voters is shrinking after 2010 and there are a whole lot of matches which were scored 50.xx%. People sure love close matches.
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Gee, guys, it's a really annoying thing that Gorbachev accidentally made the Soviet Union collapse under its own weight because it takes away from the enjoyment of reminiscing how we used to beat them all the time in many ways!
This is the kind of logic that I'm seeing here, and yes, I'm suggesting that it's a bit flawed and flimsy. It sounds like you love holding grudges and think people don't deserve to ever change for the better if they have once lived according to ideals that ended up hurting them in the long run. To be honest, it doesn't sound like a particularly healthy or a pleasant view to have.
^ THIS.
Luffy's punch against Bellamy was so strong that it completely destroyed the truth he perceived up to that point and forced him to turn his mind around and pursue his dreams with a less cocky and much more open mind.
I don't know what you're talking about, current Bellamy made that punch even more meaningful since we get an idea of Luffy not just being someone bent on destroying his enemies but simply destroying the negative and evil ideas they happen to represent. And I respect that Oda doesn't have the perspective of someone being a villain meaning they're always going to be villanous caricatures of pure evil, but a perspective that shows that individuals are a product of choices and environment and have redeeming qualities when placed in the right conditions with the right attitude. Because that's how the world is, people aren't just jerks for the sake of being jerks, but because their poisonous situations led them to becoming that.
^ AND THIS.
@Noqanky:It was a powerful punch because Luffy stood up for his dreams, and at that point Bellamy more than a character was the embodiment of that pessimistic, realistic attitude that dreams are for kids and fools.
^ And also this.
The fact that Bellamy has changed as a person, means that Luffy's punch hit its mark perfectly. The only thing I would say, is that Nex does have a point about Bellamy's character development not being readily apparent until Dress Rosa. I still don't think it's "random" by any means, but it may have been more coherent if it had been implied beforehand.
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@Señor:
Meanwhile some more stats, this time about the whole tournament. The number of voters and the number of the scores of all 391 predicted matches.
Number of voters is shrinking after 2010 and there are a whole lot of matches which were scored 50.xx%. People sure love close matches.
It's a result of the voter pool shrinking I believe. Back in 2010 when we had all those voters, Makino vs. Whitebeard of all things was considered a relatively close match: Whitebeard won two votes to one.
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villains getting inexplicably redeemed after hundreds of chapters?? this is a completely outlandish thing that has NEVER happened in One Piece before! what is Oda thinking?!
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villains getting inexplicably redeemed after hundreds of chapters?? this is a completely outlandish thing that has NEVER happened in One Piece before! what is Oda thinking?!
Who else got randomly redeemed? And just because it possibly happened before doesn't make it good writing. In fact, if something happens "inexplicably" it's generally not good writing.
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@Nex:
Who else got randomly redeemed? And just because it possibly happened before doesn't make it good writing. In fact, if something happens "inexplicably" it's generally not good writing.
gee I don't know maybe all of Baroque Works. Alvida and Buggy. Duval's gang. and you don't see anyone complaining about them. Redeeming villains is something Oda does a lot, and I would hardly call it bad writing even if it can be kind of random at times. Also Bartolomeo. He's a giant asshole but suddenly surprise, he was a Luffy fanboy all along and a convenient ally.
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gee I don't know maybe all of Baroque Works. Alvida and Buggy. Duval's gang. and you don't see anyone complaining about them. Redeeming villains is something Oda does a lot, and I would hardly call it bad writing even if it can be kind of random at times. Also Bartolomeo. He's a giant asshole but suddenly surprise, he was a Luffy fanboy all along and a convenient ally.
You think Crocodile has been redeemed? What? The only member of BW who was redeemed is Mr.2 and it happened in Alabasta as character development. Crocodile is still a scumbag who regrets none of his actions. So he helped save Luffy? So what. He only did it because he didn't want Akainu to win. Mr. 1 still sits right by his side. The rest of the gang. We have no indication that they've been redeemed.
Buggy and Alvida? Are you serious? Are we reading the same manga? First of all, not one of them ever did anything remotely close to the worse villains in the series, and Buggy is still a downright scoundrel who would kill Luffy the first chance he got.
Also, you can't call a character "Redeemed" if they never truly do anything bad that we the reader's get to see. Thus Duval and Barto don't qualify. Ducal showed up and was changed 2 chapters later. Barto never even acted agaisnt Luffy or did anything villainous that we saw. He's just an ass.
I mean, sure, of you want to go around throwing the loosest possible definition of redemption at every character, then lots of characters have been redeemed.
The biggest difference in the specific situation with Bellamy though, is that every other villain who has come back has come back the same as when we saw them last. Any development towards "redemption" has happened on screen. Bellamy disappeared for nearly 500 chapters and then showed back up as a different character. That's what makes this specific instance bad writing. (Once again, this is all conditional, Oda may have something in mind that changes my mind, but in a medium where installments are weekly, things have to be judges where they're at.)
EDIT: reading that over, I'm sounding a lot more like an ass than I mean to. So apologies there. I'm just cranky due to exhaustion.
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@Nex:
EDIT: reading that over, I'm sounding a lot more like an ass than I mean to. So apologies there. I'm just cranky due to exhaustion.
nah it's cool, we all have our off days.
I really should have clarified, excluding Croc. :P I have a feeling he's going to play a bigger role later, but yeah he's far from redemption like what we saw in Mr. 2 or Mr. 3. In Alvida's case, she literally fell in love with Luffy because he punched her. She's not the worst villain by far especially when we get to people like the Nobles and Spandam, and the fact that it didn't take as many chapters as Bellamy's return makes it less random, but still. As for Buggy I think of it in terms of how he went from a guy who uses his subordinates as shields to seeming to care about 'em, but yeah I guess the cover story explains that. I don't really know if he'd still try to kill Luffy since he's become more of a joke character now though. on that subject we're just going to have to wait hundreds more chapters to find out what the relationship status is. He's just one step away from being an ally, albeit an accidental one. You have a fair point on those other guys in that their transformation was in a few chapters not over the course of hundreds of chapters, so it's not as surprising. I still argue that Duval counts because even though we didn't get to see a whole lot of his villainy, he was formerly a kidnapping gang leader who was out to get Sanji, but now he's a relevant ally who has completely reformed. But I do agree with you that there's still a lot of gaps to be filled regarding Bellamy. I assume we're getting that in flashbacks otherwise it seems kind of pointless for Oda to bring him back at all. I just trust Oda will deliver.
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You can always give ideas for filler matches. If not now they might be used next year.
I'm not sure how well it'd fit into a schedule since these characters are technically in the tournament , but I'd love to see a "One Piece Characters with no lines" match. Citizen Snips, Fred, Pwngoat, Kuzan's Penguin, etc.
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@Nex:
You think Crocodile has been redeemed? What? The only member of BW who was redeemed is Mr.2 and it happened in Alabasta as character development. Crocodile is still a scumbag who regrets none of his actions. So he helped save Luffy? So what. He only did it because he didn't want Akainu to win. Mr. 1 still sits right by his side. The rest of the gang. We have no indication that they've been redeemed.
Buggy and Alvida? Are you serious? Are we reading the same manga? First of all, not one of them ever did anything remotely close to the worse villains in the series, and Buggy is still a downright scoundrel who would kill Luffy the first chance he got.
Also, you can't call a character "Redeemed" if they never truly do anything bad that we the reader's get to see. Thus Duval and Barto don't qualify. Ducal showed up and was changed 2 chapters later. Barto never even acted agaisnt Luffy or did anything villainous that we saw. He's just an ass.
I mean, sure, of you want to go around throwing the loosest possible definition of redemption at every character, then lots of characters have been redeemed.
The biggest difference in the specific situation with Bellamy though, is that every other villain who has come back has come back the same as when we saw them last. Any development towards "redemption" has happened on screen. Bellamy disappeared for nearly 500 chapters and then showed back up as a different character. That's what makes this specific instance bad writing. (Once again, this is all conditional, Oda may have something in mind that changes my mind, but in a medium where installments are weekly, things have to be judges where they're at.)
EDIT: reading that over, I'm sounding a lot more like an ass than I mean to. So apologies there. I'm just cranky due to exhaustion.
Bellamy's transformation isn't as random as you're making it out to seem. Yes, he was gone for 100s of chapters and now he seems like a very different person, but it's obvious that those changes will soon be covered. Because really, Bellamy's redemption hasn't even happened yet. Not to the reader, at least, which is what matters. All we know is that something happened, and I think what you're supposed to be feeling is "wow, I wonder just what exactly made Bellamy change THAT much." Rather than being upset over how sudden it is.
Because of the length of the manga, yes, you do have to take it chapter by chapter, but that doesn't mean you should nitpick every little thing that doesn't make sense right away, or isn't explained yet. We all know there's some big story behind Dressrosa, we know there is a reason Law is meeting his crew later, and so on and so forth. That's the way the manga has been from the start. Just trust in Oda :)
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But I do agree with you that there's still a lot of gaps to be filled regarding Bellamy. I assume we're getting that in flashbacks otherwise it seems kind of pointless for Oda to bring him back at all. I just trust Oda will deliver.
heh. you know, nitpicking about what constitutes redemption aside, I just realized I've essentially conceded to your underlying argument that we don't have enough yet to say that Bellamy's been properly redeemed. I find that amusing. But like I said, it's pretty implied that we're going to get the gaps filled by the end of the arc. If not then yeah I'll admit it was a little too abrupt.
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@Cyan:
So basically all the Strawhats that aren't Jinbe are getting the axe.
Good.
Brook and Enel seems like a pretty safe bet.