Shiki, Zephyr and the canon timeline.

D.aelthasaar

Can't wrap my head that much about these 2 characters.
Usually anime filler characters and OVA characters are non canon and make things easier for the official, true and only manga timeline.

Though these 2 characters are a different thing.
First of all they're both created by Oda himself.

While Zephyr/Z has never been referenced in the manga, but could be in the future, although it would be quite pointless if not to mention most Marines' sensei, Shiki is different.

First Oda mentioned in the manga that one man was able to escape Impel Down, then, through Episode 0, which is canon, we learn that the man is Shiki, a man that in the Roger era was able to stand against Roger and Whitebeard.
Now, the story of Strong World is non canon, so…where's Shiki after his Impel Down escape?
Obviously such a big pirate that could be Yonkou level couldn't have been overseen by other pirates/Marines but how does he relate to the official timeline?

How do you people explain this stuff?

knceng

After Impel Down, we seen Shiki pay WB a visit, and making his 20 years (?) plan in some island (in east blue?).
And Marines seems like to keep big names Impel Down escapee in secret

Cruithne

He can't be Yonkou level if Luffy beat him, tho. That 20 years had to have cut his strength a bunch.

He'd have been in level six of ID since he used to be able to stand against Roger. After he escaped, it was probably swept under the rug.

I'm guessing that instead of meeting the Strawhats (between Thriller Bark and Sabaody), he's just kept cruisin' along doing his own thing.

D.aelthasaar

Luffy beating Shiki is non canon though.
Can't find Shiki's meeting with Whitebeard in the manga, and I can't check vol.0 at the moment.

Enzeru

@D.aelthasaar:

Luffy beating Shiki is non canon though.
Can't find Shiki's meeting with Whitebeard in the manga, and I can't check vol.0 at the moment.

http://www.batoto.net/read/_/144721/one-piece_by_renegados-scanlation/20 (it's in Spanish but the important part is the meeting itself I assume?)

Regarding the topic itself; Shiki is a canon character while Z isn't (yet). There are many hints pointing towards the latter being canon as well but until it's confirmed in the manga, it's not true.

knceng

It's in chapter 0, there's Edd War's battle, the fleet admiral was Kong, …. wait, you haven't read this?

wolfwood

Both characters are created by Oda and in the canon

In fact the new shichibukai is the guy who cut of Zephyrs arm

King Cannon

I don't consider Zephyr canon until he gets at least a mention in the Manga.

Johnny B. Decent

@wolfwoof:

Both characters are created by Oda and in the canon

In fact the new shichibukai is the guy who cut of Zephyrs arm

Speaking of that, does anyone remember the pirate Zephyr let go and then it came back to haunt him was the one who killed his family or the one who cut his arm off and killed his crew?

MiyamotoMusashi

@S.C.:

Speaking of that, does anyone remember the pirate Zephyr let go and then it came back to haunt him was the one who killed his family or the one who cut his arm off and killed his crew?

In other words the new Shichibukai?

wolfwood

We talked about that before but i don't think we can be sure if they are one and the same

MiyamotoMusashi

@wolfwoof:

We talked about that before but i don't think we can be sure if they are one and the same

Of course we can´t but tjhe Z timeline does not contradict the canon at least, so it´s a possibility

Monkey King

The Z thing sounds really interesting so I'd have no problem with it becoming canon.

joekido the Second

I really wish Oda would add Strong World to the Manga reather then just be a film material. That would be interesting

Monkey King

@joekido:

I really wish Oda would add Strong World to the Manga reather then just be a film material. That would be interesting

Except it doesn't fit in anywhere in the story.

Crossword

I just watched the movie last night and there's no indication that the pirate that killed Z's family and the one who cut off his arm and became a Warlord are one in the same.

Anyway, for now I'm going to say that Z and the backstory of the film are all canon, but the events in the actual movie with the Dyna Stones and Endpoints are not.

MiyamotoMusashi

@Crossword:

I just watched the movie last night and there's no indication that the pirate that killed Z's family and the one who cut off his arm and became a Warlord are one in the same.

Anyway, for now I'm going to say that Z and the backstory of the film are all canon, but the events in the actual movie with the Dyna Stones and Endpoints are not.

Because they are not

Enzeru

Personally, I wouldn't mind the Dyna Stones and the Endpoints being canon as well. I like the concept of such points and can see them work just fine in the story, while the Dyna Stones would make for a powerful addition to the marines' repertoire (although they seem a bit too powerful).

knceng

But Z movie happened after FI and before PH… didn't fit either...

Crossword

I had imagined Luffy's final battle with Akainu taking place on a volcanic island, so I was a little miffed that the movie already used the concept, heh.

Palpitoad93

It has not been confirmed whether or not the mystery Shichibukai is the one who cut off Zephyr's arm. This Shichibukai was added during the timeskip, but I got the feeling that Zephyr went rogue many years before that.

@Crossword:

I had imagined Luffy's final battle with Akainu taking place on a volcanic island, so I was a little miffed that the movie already used the concept, heh.

Just have Mera Mera Coby fight Akainu instead.;)

nonectra

@Palpitoad93:

It has not been confirmed whether or not the mystery Shichibukai is the one who cut off Zephyr's arm. This Shichibukai was added during the timeskip, but I got the feeling that Zephyr went rogue many years before that.

Just have Mera Mera Coby fight Akainu instead.;)

You must really hate Coby. :(

Maju

@Palpitoad93:

It has not been confirmed whether or not the mystery Shichibukai is the one who cut off Zephyr's arm. This Shichibukai was added during the timeskip, but I got the feeling that Zephyr went rogue many years before that.

yes it was.Z left the marines exactly because the guy who cut his arm and slaughtered his "crew" became a shichibukai ,all this during the timeskip.

Enzeru

@Palpitoad93:

It has not been confirmed whether or not the mystery Shichibukai is the one who cut off Zephyr's arm. This Shichibukai was added during the timeskip, but I got the feeling that Zephyr went rogue many years before that.

Just have Mera Mera Coby fight Akainu instead.;)

Actually it has been confirmed.
http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=34340&page=119&p=2764755&viewfull=1#post2764755

wolfwood

@Palpitoad93:

It has not been confirmed whether or not the mystery Shichibukai is the one who cut off Zephyr's arm. This Shichibukai was added during the timeskip, but I got the feeling that Zephyr went rogue many years before that

No it's been clearly stated both in the backstory Oda released and in the movie he oversaw that the new shichibukai did cut of his arm

And that his appointment to the shichibukai seat was what drove Zephyr over the edge

D.aelthasaar

I mean the Strong World and Z material are not crap and could fit the manga timeline, though, speaking of the manga, the movies "spoiled" the characters since Zephyr can only be hinted in flashbacks, and I'm sure he will in an interesting way, and Shiki is totally wasted.
The point is that Shiki could have been New World worth material and it would be silly to make him rampage in East Blue the weakest sea.
Shiki is surely less interesting than Zephyr, but since Strong World didn't happen canonically, he's the last big captain we know from the Golden Era, that is still alive.
Shiki is still a pirate that cornered Roger in Edd War starting the battle with clear advantage.

MetaMario

I just feel bad I haven't gotten around to watching Z's movie yet. :X

Trafalgar-Boy

So is shiki and Zephir still alive somewhere in op universe?

Enzeru

@Trafalgar-Boy:

So is shiki and Zephir still alive somewhere in op universe?

! Yes and no .

Maju

@Trafalgar-Boy:

So is shiki and Zephir still alive somewhere in op universe?

shiki,yes,zephir,i don't think so..
even if the movies are "non canon" because they have no real way to fit in the timeline (and Z was not written by oda either),oda still consider them "canon" in a sense that he will not use shiki's plan as a plot point in the manga or show Z alive and well…

D.aelthasaar

@Enzeru:

Actually it has been confirmed.
http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=34340&page=119&p=2764755&viewfull=1#post2764755

@wolfwoof:

No it's been clearly stated both in the backstory Oda released and in the movie he oversaw that the new shichibukai did cut of his arm

And that his appointment to the shichibukai seat was what drove Zephyr over the edge

If Sandman timeline is canon, even Z's stuff is fucked up in the future of the manga.
I mean, he should pull a 180° and negate the movie.
And even if it's not canon I don't see Oda backtrack on his decisions.

Enzeru

And why exactly is it "fucked up"? Care to elaborate on that?

D.aelthasaar

Because we have an ex admiral, a powerhouse, sensei of one of the admirals and the current fleet admiral, "prey" of the last shichibukai (that should be a beast) that has gone rogue, crazy but disappeared from the world, probably "dead from a bee sting".
That's no Oda.
But I don't see him backtracking and say he's alive.

I ask you how he could fit an alive Zephyr in the manga.

Enzeru

He doesn't need to fit an alive Z into the manga. It's clear what happened to him and having his name mentioned by one of the characters involved in the case should be more than enough to confirm Z as a canon character.

Slack

@D.aelthasaar:

Because we have an ex admiral, a powerhouse, sensei of one of the admirals and the current fleet admiral, "prey" of the last shichibukai (that should be a beast) that has gone rogue, crazy but disappeared from the world, probably "dead from a bee sting".
That's no Oda.
But I don't see him backtracking and say he's alive.

I ask you how he could fit an alive Zephyr in the manga.

I perceive the movies as a parallel scenario, whereby if the SH's had been in this situation this is what would have happened. However, while neither fits into the canon story line we're reading, the characters themselves have canonical history within the same manga storyline. This means their motivations to commit the acts they did are still there so I imagine that Shiki and Z were stopped by the marines because the SH's weren't there and that Z died and Shiki was recaptured/died. I doubt we'll see them turning up in the future as it would conflict with the already established motivation and backstory the characters had.

D.aelthasaar

@Slack:

I perceive the movies as a parallel scenario, whereby if the SH's had been in this situation this is what would have happened. However, while neither fits into the canon story line we're reading, the characters themselves have canonical history within the same manga storyline. This means their motivations to commit the acts they did are still there so I imagine that Shiki and Z were stopped by the marines because the SH's weren't there and that Z died and Shiki was recaptured/died. I doubt we'll see them turning up in the future as it would conflict with the already established motivation and backstory the characters had.

See, I totally accept this vision, but can't help to think that it would be a pity such interesting characters would be dealt that way.

SSJLuffy

@Slack:

I perceive the movies as a parallel scenario, whereby if the SH's had been in this situation this is what would have happened. However, while neither fits into the canon story line we're reading, the characters themselves have canonical history within the same manga storyline. This means their motivations to commit the acts they did are still there so I imagine that Shiki and Z were stopped by the marines because the SH's weren't there and that Z died and Shiki was recaptured/died. I doubt we'll see them turning up in the future as it would conflict with the already established motivation and backstory the characters had.

This is definitely the best way to put it. Because Shiki and Z are definitely canon characters (in my opinion) but the Straw Hats fighting them doesn't fit in the series timeline.

Supernova

This is why I hated the idea of Z and Strong World. Good movies, but non canon with canon characters. Hate it. Next movie better justbe stand alone.

blindjustice

@wolfwoof:

No it's been clearly stated both in the backstory Oda released and in the movie he oversaw that the new shichibukai did cut of his arm

And that his appointment to the shichibukai seat was what drove Zephyr over the edge

So was Z an admiral during the war or did he retire from the marines long before the war? It seems like he is in Garp, Sengoku, WB, Roger age.

wolfwood

He stepped down from his position long before the war.

Then he was a teacher and trainer to almost all the major marines for a while

Til his latest batch of students were killed by this new shichibukai and he lost his arm

After that he headed up a semi-independent group in the marines that sought out and killed devil fruit users

And that was apparently what he was doing during the war

Enzeru

@wolfwoof:

He stepped down from his position long before the war.

Then he was a teacher and trainer to almost all the major marines for a while

Til his latest batch of students were killed by this new shichibukai and he lost his arm

After that he headed up a semi-independent group in the marines that sought out and killed devil fruit users

And that was apparently what he was doing during the war

Going by that definition the group would've had to kill part of itself. '-'

King Cannon

Why would they kill DF users anyway? Isn't that Blackbeard's thing already?

Maju

@Supernova:

This is why I hated the idea of Z and Strong World. Good movies, but non canon with canon characters. Hate it. Next movie better justbe stand alone.

for me,it is just the opposite..canon characters and thus canon world building is the only way they can make me care about the onepiece movies.

Crossword

@King:

Why would they kill DF users anyway? Isn't that Blackbeard's thing already?

He had a grudge against pirates with Devil Fruits because the Warlord that cut off his arm and slaughtered his trainees had one, I believe.

wolfwood

I believe it was because the new shichibukai was a devil fruit user

So pirates with dfs were kind of his pet peeve. Hence the huge df killer on his stump

Slack

We know from experience that Oda puts a lot of effort into his characters and doesn't like to waste them so it's not so inconceivable that we will see them both show up in a roger/garp era flashback. They are unlikely to be anything more than a cameo role appearance as a nice nod to fans though. I still have a feeling there is some mystery surrounding that freak storm at the edd war so we might get that explained. It would also be very plausible to see some sengoku, garp, z and a possible third admiral interaction with WB, roger and shiki etc…

Russbuspower

@S.C.:

Speaking of that, does anyone remember the pirate Zephyr let go and then it came back to haunt him was the one who killed his family or the one who cut his arm off and killed his crew?

Pretty sure its dofla since they mention it was a df user schichi in the movie and i cant imagine any other shichi being able to beat an admiral that also uses dfs.

wolfwood

No it absolutely wasn't Doffy. He's been a shichibukai for years now

The one who attacked Zephyr was just drafted

Russbuspower

@wolfwoof:

No it absolutely wasn't Doffy. He's been a shichibukai for years now

The one who attacked Zephyr was just drafted

I dont remember them saying when this occured though, the people he trained who lived (the crop guy and rein) looked like they grew up a little. What im saying is he could have lost all his trainees and arm right before dofla became an SB however long ago that was. And on a side not i dont think he let a pirate off who then came back to kill his family and his trainees, and i dont remember it even mentioning if it was the same pirate. Correct me if im wrong

Densuke

@Russbuspower:

I dont remember them saying when this occured though, the people he trained who lived (the crop guy and rein) looked like they grew up a little. What im saying is he could have lost all his trainees and arm right before dofla became an SB however long ago that was. And on a side not i dont think he let a pirate off who then came back to kill his family and his trainees, and i dont remember it even mentioning if it was the same pirate. Correct me if im wrong

He didn't, those two instances happened at different times in his life.

Also, the Shichibukai who cut his arm off was NOT Doflamingo. As it states in the info given in the movie, and in the Film Z thread; the one who cut off his arm became a Shichibukai over the time skip, iirc. But that also happened years before and is just the reason why Zephyr left the marines.