Sword Art Online

Foolio

"Overrated" means specifically more praise than it deserves (in someone's opinion). But if something is popular then it's hard to make an argument about it being widely considered bad, isn't it? Somewhat of a phenomenon to have tons of people watching something while agreeing that it's not good. Unless you're only considering the opinion of critics, or some subset of people such as AP users.

Anyway how about we not randomly try to comment on other things that you think suck. "Bleach sucks." "I know right! Just like that new Hobbit movie! How could anyone like that lolol you're so right."

MiyamotoMusashi

@DarthAsthma:

Alright, I guess I've yet to see it being used based on popularity alone. Recognition and praise have been the more important indicators from my experience.
Popularity has been more a factor between making the differentiation of something turning into a critical darling or into the next overrated thing from what I've seen. I'll keep that in mind, amending my understanding of the term a bit, I guess?

I hope I don't have to spell it out but the part I bolded is kind of a statement in itself of how opinions and perception work:ninja:

It all comes down to opinion and perception, no need to emphasize that point^^

Night_slayer

So we should say OVERHYPED , instead of overrated or wut.

Anyway this isnt the last season for sao, there will be at least 2 more seasons.

stephen

PSA: buy the crappy novels and manga when they come out, I translated them

Nidhoeggr

@stephen:

PSA: buy the crappy novels and manga when they come out, I translated them

My condolences. Did you have at least some fun translating them?

stephen

I have fun thinking about the number of paychecks I will get over the next few years.

Gokuyuske

@DarthAsthma:

Welp I just hope I wasn't too much of a dick when hating on a show. I mean it's kind of fun but when you think about it it's also kind an asshole thing to do when you ruin other people's entertainment with your own pessimism. At least if it's not like the Nah and Bleh thread where everyone is in on the joke.

Nah don't worry about it. I don't much care what other people think about shows I enjoy and most of your predictions came true in the end anyway!

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@stephen:

I have fun thinking about the number of paychecks I will get over the next few years.

Hahaha, profiting from such filth. You're like a translation whore.

Foolio

@Gokuyuske:

Hahaha, profiting from such filth. You're like a translation whore.

Hey you may just be joking but this is not a cool thing to say.

Getsuya

@stephen:

I have fun thinking about the number of paychecks I will get over the next few years.

Pro translating light novels would be my dream job. I am very envious of you.

Night_slayer

Well i have the feeling there is not that many Western readers for light novels. Probably around 1000 at best.

Getsuya

@Night_slayer:

Well i have the feeling there is not that many Western readers for light novels. Probably around 1000 at best.

This statement warrants discussion. See the problem with the current light novel publishers is that they focus on light novels that are based on anime that are currently popular. However, due to the difficulty of translating and publishing the novels by the time the novels come out several years have gone by and even the big anime fans have moved on to other things. Plus they can't keep up with the fan translators so everyone who wants to read the story already has.

Add that to the fact that most of the big-name popular light novels have some creepy element that won't appeal to any readers outside of hardcore anime fans (for example: the incest in SAO), and yeah you've got yourself a bad situation.

What light novel localizers SHOULD be doing is selecting series that don't have anime and that don't contain elements that would automatically turn most Americans' stomachs. That way they're not constantly trying to ride the wave of popularity and are instead putting out series that are solid to read no matter when they come out. If the coupled good series selection with better marketing… y'know not selling their light novels next to all the manga and actually treating them like normal novels to be sold to everyone, then they could get a lot farther.

However they would also need the support of the anime fans themselves. When they tried making Spice and Wolf look more like a normal novel by changing the cover art there was an enormous amount of backlash from the anime community. We need to learn to accept decisions aimed at making light novels more successful in the West or they're never going to have a chance.

Here's how I would localize a light novel: I would take 2-3 volumes of it at a time to make it the length of an actual normal novel in America, I would pick a series that avoids any icky stuff that would turn off Western readers, I would take out all the art or get a Western artist to replace it, and I would do a lot more marketing both online and through other outlets. Now sure I'd get tons of backlash from the anime community, but most of them would still buy it despite their outrage, whereas the non-anime lovers definitely would NOT buy it if I didn't make these changes.

Night_slayer

@Getsuya:

This statement warrants discussion. See the problem with the current light novel publishers is that they focus on light novels that are based on anime that are currently popular. However, due to the difficulty of translating and publishing the novels by the time the novels come out several years have gone by and even the big anime fans have moved on to other things. Plus they can't keep up with the fan translators so everyone who wants to read the story already has.

Add that to the fact that most of the big-name popular light novels have some creepy element that won't appeal to any readers outside of hardcore anime fans (for example: the incest in SAO), and yeah you've got yourself a bad situation.

What light novel localizers SHOULD be doing is selecting series that don't have anime and that don't contain elements that would automatically turn most Americans' stomachs. That way they're not constantly trying to ride the wave of popularity and are instead putting out series that are solid to read no matter when they come out. If the coupled good series selection with better marketing… y'know not selling their light novels next to all the manga and actually treating them like normal novels to be sold to everyone, then they could get a lot farther.

However they would also need the support of the anime fans themselves. When they tried making Spice and Wolf look more like a normal novel by changing the cover art there was an enormous amount of backlash from the anime community. We need to learn to accept decisions aimed at making light novels more successful in the West or they're never going to have a chance.

Here's how I would localize a light novel: I would take 2-3 volumes of it at a time to make it the length of an actual normal novel in America, I would pick a series that avoids any icky stuff that would turn off Western readers, I would take out all the art or get a Western artist to replace it, and I would do a lot more marketing both online and through other outlets. Now sure I'd get tons of backlash from the anime community, but most of them would still buy it despite their outrage, whereas the non-anime lovers definitely would NOT buy it if I didn't make these changes.

The covers for Spice and wolf is pretty horrible, they will probaly think this is a trashy romance novel.

Getsuya

Yeah, it was pretty crappy. But the concept of changing the cover to something with a wider appeal was still sound.

Gokuyuske

@Foolio:

Hey you may just be joking but this is not a cool thing to say.

Totally joking of course, Stephen is an awesome guy.

FelRes

So I hear Kirito is a girl in the next season. Will watch while hating myself.

Nidhoeggr

@Getsuya:

This statement warrants discussion. See the problem with the current light novel publishers is that they focus on light novels that are based on anime that are currently popular. However, due to the difficulty of translating and publishing the novels by the time the novels come out several years have gone by and even the big anime fans have moved on to other things. Plus they can't keep up with the fan translators so everyone who wants to read the story already has.

Add that to the fact that most of the big-name popular light novels have some creepy element that won't appeal to any readers outside of hardcore anime fans (for example: the incest in SAO), and yeah you've got yourself a bad situation.

What light novel localizers SHOULD be doing is selecting series that don't have anime and that don't contain elements that would automatically turn most Americans' stomachs. That way they're not constantly trying to ride the wave of popularity and are instead putting out series that are solid to read no matter when they come out. If the coupled good series selection with better marketing… y'know not selling their light novels next to all the manga and actually treating them like normal novels to be sold to everyone, then they could get a lot farther.

However they would also need the support of the anime fans themselves. When they tried making Spice and Wolf look more like a normal novel by changing the cover art there was an enormous amount of backlash from the anime community. We need to learn to accept decisions aimed at making light novels more successful in the West or they're never going to have a chance.

Here's how I would localize a light novel: I would take 2-3 volumes of it at a time to make it the length of an actual normal novel in America, I would pick a series that avoids any icky stuff that would turn off Western readers, I would take out all the art or get a Western artist to replace it, and I would do a lot more marketing both online and through other outlets. Now sure I'd get tons of backlash from the anime community, but most of them would still buy it despite their outrage, whereas the non-anime lovers definitely would NOT buy it if I didn't make these changes.

You seem to imply that a lot of the current LNs are not full of controversial stuff.
This always baffled me: LN, or rather: stories published in the bunko format, seemed to be a bit more concerned with broad audiences and def. had another focus in the early 2000s than they have now. Think of Boogiepop Phantom, Kino no Tabi, Slayers, Baccano, etc. Either this is due to a warped perception as back then Western fans had no idea of knowing all the bad stuff as simply nobody cared about LN that didn't get a popular adaption - or recent LNs indeed suffer through being overdependant on the otaku niche that seems to love incest, bad fantasy, harems and ecchi.
I agree, though: With the current length of a LN, one should best publish two or three of them as a single entity. The arc structure would actually make for a decent publication schedule, fans could get a single finished fragment of the story without the typical mid-arc cliffhangers and even if a series is not successful people won't get mad at publishers for dropping it halfway through an important story fragment.

Luxor

@FelRes:

So I hear Kirito is a girl in the next season. Will watch while hating myself.

She's a right proper Mary Sue, that Kiriko is.

Night_slayer

If you want read a story with a mmorpg settings , i recommend 1/2 prince novel/manga

Nidhoeggr

A lot of people seem to rate it very high based on the "trapped in a virtual world" setting alone, so I suggest they read Tad Williams' "Otherland" series.

Luxor

Speaking of otherland, I remember there being a game being made that was really similar to second life.

Ike79

On the topic of the light novel, the 3-volumes-in-1 idea would be the best from a consumer's point of view, but I doubt that it would give profit to the seller. I say this knowing little to none about the market, but I'm guessing that the Japanese company will sell the novels individually, thus making the final price not competitive for the western seller, that would take great damage if the novel didn't sell enough.It would mean taking a huge risk for them.

I do agree that they should be more appealing to the general public with a change of cover, for example. But I don't think not publishing the original illustration is a good idea, because of the fans that want them and the original author that probably will not be happy with it. I don't know how much power he has in the matter but he probably can be an important obstacle.

Getsuya

@Ike79:

On the topic of the light novel, the 3-volumes-in-1 idea would be the best from a consumer's point of view, but I doubt that it would give profit to the seller. I say this knowing little to none about the market, but I'm guessing that the Japanese company will sell the novels individually, thus making the final price not competitive for the western seller, that would take great damage if the novel didn't sell enough.It would mean taking a huge risk for them.

I do agree that they should be more appealing to the general public with a change of cover, for example. But I don't think not publishing the original illustration is a good idea, because of the fans that want them and the original author that probably will not be happy with it. I don't know how much power he has in the matter but he probably can be an important obstacle.

Except it has already been done:
http://www.amazon.com/Strawberry-Panic-Complete-Novel-Collection/dp/1934876992

There are also plenty of examples of omnibus versions of manga being released in Japan and America.
Plus you already have full-novel sized LNs like the Genesis series (Horizon in the Middle of Nowhere) that are the size of 3 LNs but are sold for only $3-4 more than a normal one.
The Strawberry Panic idea would have worked if A. It wasn't a super-niche market (underage shoujo-ai) B. They hadn't put out the first two volumes FIRST thus making everyone interested in the series pissed off that they would have to essentially buy the first two books again. Plus they waited an insane amount of time between releasing 1 and 2 and releasing the 3-in-1 pack, long enough that everyone had pretty much forgotten about it.

Like I said there have been tons of mis-steps along the way, but they're still steps in the right direction. They just need to not screw it up next time and these ideas could really work.

Ike79

@Getsuya:

Except it has already been done:
http://www.amazon.com/Strawberry-Panic-Complete-Novel-Collection/dp/1934876992

There are also plenty of examples of omnibus versions of manga being released in Japan and America.
Plus you already have full-novel sized LNs like the Genesis series (Horizon in the Middle of Nowhere) that are the size of 3 LNs but are sold for only $3-4 more than a normal one.
The Strawberry Panic idea would have worked if A. It wasn't a super-niche market (underage shoujo-ai) B. They hadn't put out the first two volumes FIRST thus making everyone interested in the series pissed off that they would have to essentially buy the first two books again. Plus they waited an insane amount of time between releasing 1 and 2 and releasing the 3-in-1 pack, long enough that everyone had pretty much forgotten about it.

Like I said there have been tons of mis-steps along the way, but they're still steps in the right direction. They just need to not screw it up next time and these ideas could really work.

In the example you're giving me the american company didn't buy the 3 novels together, but separetely so it doesn't really negate my point. That's why they released them first individually and then all together. It's the same with the omnibus versions of manga, they are usually released after having released all the volumes individually.

But then again I don't really know the market, much less the american one, so I can't say if there has been someone that has actually tried this idea and how the've done it.

Sander

One thing that baffles me is how some people make it out as if the thing's premise is something absolutely amazing, even some of those haters who are dissappointed by the franchise.

I don't get it.

I get how the premise of dudes trapped in an online game can be interesting and exciting, but some people I've seen are treating the idea as if it by itself is a stroke of genius.

Is it because I don't play MMORPG games?

MiyamotoMusashi

@Sander:

One thing that baffles me is how some people make it out as if the thing's premise is something absolutely amazing, even some of those haters who are dissappointed by the franchise.

I don't get it.

I get how the premise of dudes trapped in an online game can be interesting and exciting, but some people I've seen are treating the idea as if it by itself is a stroke of genius.

Is it because I don't play MMORPG games?

It´s not really a stroke of genius but it certainly is an interesting concept dealing with a phenomenon that has appeared in the last, i don´t know, 10-15 years and will be a huge issue in the future, namely the social aspects of a cyber world community. So basically, it promised us an interesting concept but delivered the wet dream of a 14 year old otaku.

Nidhoeggr

@Sander:

One thing that baffles me is how some people make it out as if the thing's premise is something absolutely amazing, even some of those haters who are dissappointed by the franchise.

I don't get it.

I get how the premise of dudes trapped in an online game can be interesting and exciting, but some people I've seen are treating the idea as if it by itself is a stroke of genius.

Is it because I don't play MMORPG games?

It's because these people are 14 years old and never read any other of the countless works that feature a similar premise.

Malintex_Terek

The premise is more original than you guys are giving credit for, given the supposed nature of "Sword Art Online" where it's an MMORPG featured around swords. Being trapped in an MMO is one thing, but there's a big difference between an MMO set in the middle ages or Age of Exploration. Heck, there's a big difference in an MMO set in the 19th century, where Japan was feudal while the rest of the world was industrializing. The setting becomes, effectively, a proxy for time travel by reducing the modern players to that word's level of technology and culture. SAO itself was purported to be based around swords and swordplay only, which makes it different from a truly generic RPG setting as seen in .hack.

However, because the author is a hack and a narcissist, SAO was too clumsy to make much of its premise. See: Log Horizon for something done better.

Aohige_AP

SAO is like masturbating to a porn featuring a gaudy whore, whereas LH is like fapping to some highclass orgy porn.

Latter is better.

Kondo

@Aohige_AP:

SAO is like masturbating to a porn featuring a gaudy whore, whereas LH is like fapping to some highclass orgy porn.

Latter is better.

Yeah, but by the end, both leave a bad taste in your mouth.

Razh

I found watching SAO quite relaxing. Especially the first half. Second half had too much of that sleazy douche bag and a needless love triangle.
It could have been much much better.

But I saw people recommending that Log Horizon as a better anime with same thematics on several different places. Is it worth a watch? I somehow got used to main characters being fighters. The leader in LH is an enchanter of some kind, if I'm not mistaken. I saw some fight on Youtube and I liked how detailed it was, when it comes to use of different tactics.

Malintex_Terek

@Razh:

But I saw people recommending that Log Horizon as a better anime with same thematics on several different places. Is it worth a watch? I somehow got used to main characters being fighters. The leader in LH is an enchanter of some kind, if I'm not mistaken. I saw some fight on Youtube and I liked how detailed it was, when it comes to use of different tactics.

SAO is completely different from LH. It's like comparing Bleach and…One Piece, I guess.

OP has battles, but fundamentally it's an exploration/discovery/adventure story. Bleach is literally nothing above its shallow style.

Sander

I have just discovered the infamous chapter 16.5

Soooooo… are you sure this guy is not a fanfic writer? I can't for the life of me imagine a professional writer writing down some of those lines at the end... the ones about two years worth of stuff making gloping noises and whatnot.

Enzeru

@Sander:

I have just discovered the infamous chapter 16.5

Soooooo… are you sure this guy is not a fanfic writer? I can't for the life of me imagine a professional writer writing down some of those lines at the end... the ones about two years worth of stuff making gloping noises and whatnot.

Sander, it'd been two years! Kirito could barely walk due to all the built-up… love!

DarthAsthma

@Sander:

I have just discovered the infamous chapter 16.5

Soooooo… are you sure this guy is not a fanfic writer? I can't for the life of me imagine a professional writer writing down some of those lines at the end... the ones about two years worth of stuff making gloping noises and whatnot.

@DarthAsthma:

I watched this until episode 6 and I don't know why… seriously no idea why I expected this to get any better.
It's horrible. If you're really polite about it the story can be called the peak of fan fiction writing which only positive attribute is that it at the very least tries to adhere to any form of plot coherence(which doesn't say much since it kind of ignores and time skips everything that relates to progression of the main plot) but fails in absolutely every other department be it characterisation, structure, pacing etc… etc...

As for anyone trying to really tell me that the novel of this is way better... no way... alas the anime is a total reinterpretation of the base material and only takes the premise of it, the base material can't be any good based off what I saw. It still pales even to your average western literary work of fantasy or science fiction.

Going to quote myself cause I'm a douche.
Not that I know anything about the base materiel, just judging by what I've seen of the anime.

Sander

@DarthAsthma:

Going to quote myself cause I'm a douche.
Not that I know anything about the base materiel, just judging by what I've seen of the anime.

The novel has an infamous unpublished chapter that revolves around Asuna and Kirito having sex in raunchy, pornographic detail and highly fanfiction-y writing.

It has some… notable lines... even for fanfiction porn.

DarthAsthma

Well that sounds about right.

MajinArekkusu

All the sao series are pretty much just dumb written fanfiction.

Sander

Nidhoeggr

Deep.

But seriously, I tried to read the first book of the latest arc and I stopped after 140 pages of a prologue that told me jack-shit and was way too wordy. The author spent at least one page on describing his damn index finger and how he positioned himself to chop some wood! Who takes this seriously?!

And apparently this arc has over 1.5k pages, you really need to be a hardcore fanboy to read through all of that and still think it is good.

Sander

And I finished watching the anime series the day before yesterday.

All other stupid things aside, how did the show dare to romanticise a mass murderer who killed 4000 people and kidnapped 10 000? What the hell was up with that shithead giving pep talks to Beater Stu and Beater Stu being ok with him? In the end, show treated that crazy fucker as some great man worthy of admiration, even though he's technically done much much much much worse than the laughably bad, cartoonishly evil, sex offender saturday morning cartoon team rocket villain known as Oberon/Sugou.

Oh and him "forgetting" why he ever started this shit in the first place.

Nidhoeggr

You just don't get the DEEP relationships. This makes Kubo look talented.

Sander

Yeah, I don't think I'm smart enough to tackle the Smartest Anime In Years
http://kotaku.com/sword-art-online-is-the-smartest-anime-i-ve-seen-in-yea-5947171

Black Leg

Oh Kotaku please never change

Unlucky-kat

@Godsleftsock:

The plot is silly but then it reminds me of the good ol' days of playing an MMO all day long and then I cease caring

Basically the same reason why I like it.

I've also started reading the light novels which makes the plot better(better explanations and more details which I missed when watching). He is also improving the first arc by writing side stories to fill the time skips(which I think should've been done in the first place, it's as if Oda only had been writing about the "major" parts in one piece like Enies lobby, Marineford and then suddenly the ending) and he is continuing on making new arcs in a futuristic setting where they further develop the Nervegear. Right now I've finished up to Novel 9 Alicization beginning and the first progressive Volume.

The only bad parts to me in the anime were the lack of good explanation, time skips and the antagonist of the second arc. The incest in the second arc didn't bother me at all. I am mostly pro-choice as long as they both want it and doesn't hurt anyone else then i am fine with it. However the love were mostly one-sided and Asuna would probably get hurt by it so I didn't really think it was gonna happen. The writers intention were probably to tell that you sometimes can't choose who you fall in love with.

Anyways soon the anime of Phantom bullet/GGO is going to be released I have high hopes for it considering all the tense action scenes from the novels. The plot is pretty good so hopefully anime is not gonna screw it up this time(). What do you think of GGO?

Nidhoeggr

Honestly, the novel is not really that much better than the series as the core problems remain unchanged in any medium.
I hope A-1 actually puts a bit more budget into it, though.

Enzeru

I still believe the first arc could've been so much better had the author decided to properly explore the world and focus on characters other than Kirito. Do that for five to six novels and you'll have an enjoyable tale to tell. What he did instead was skip a lot of stuff (which he is now trying to catch up on by releasing those Progressive books), then went on to create a second arc full of garbage in more than just one sense, but then he made a better arc with GGO again.

I do agree that A-1 should take some of the money that went into Vividred loli's production to create something equally good in the visual department.

Nidhoeggr

I found Vividred less offending than SAO. Sure, it was pedo service but it was honest about it and I knew I could skip it. SAO insulted my intelligence in more ways than that.

Unlucky-kat

@Enzeru:

I still believe the first arc could've been so much better had the author decided to properly explore the world and focus on characters other than Kirito. Do that for five to six novels and you'll have an enjoyable tale to tell. What he did instead was skip a lot of stuff (which he is now trying to catch up on by releasing those Progressive books), then went on to create a second arc full of garbage in more than just one sense, but then he made a better arc with GGO again

Yeah, Aincard could've been better if he had filled the time skips. The short stories about the first day after he set off from the beginner's town, when he found Asuna in the dungeon rooms before the boss room etc. It might take time but that's basically what Oda is doing. It is good that he at least listen to the critics(which I assume is why he writes those SS) and tries to repair the first arc and make new better arcs. But i think the second arc is beyond repair.

Third is my favorite atm(I have only just started with the alicaztion arc). It reminded me of death note minus the supernatural part. It had guns, sables and mysteries combined in a vrmmofpsrpg. Hopefully the animation will serve SAO good.

zxcv11791

Anyone watching the anime part II with the guns? That one sniper scene was pretty cool, but honestly the first arc was still better.

Why on earth is Kirito a girl now btw?

Gokuyuske

@zxcv11791:

Anyone watching the anime part II with the guns? That one sniper scene was pretty cool, but honestly the first arc was still better.

Watching for some reason still. I honestly enjoyed part one from a pure entertainment perspective: the story was simple and solid and while the characters were pretty flat the animation and sound direction were great. And then came the elf-sisterlove-tentaclerape-absurdvillian part which was frankly terrible.

I've seen both episodes of Part II and was quite bored by the first but enjoyed the second one. The characters being afraid of charging in against an enemy in a online game didn't really make any sense since their lives aren't in danger anymore but the action was fun.

Why on earth is Kirito a girl now btw?

I don't know anything about the light novels but I keep hearing about girl Kirito too. My thought is that the studio couldn't decide how to keep increasing Kirito's harem so they came to the conclusion that they should make him female so he can be the first guy to be in his own harem (except maybe Ranma).