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    How to be a fan of Problematic Things.

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    • Y
      Yonkou255
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      Yonkou255
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      http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/ I think this is a pretty interesting read. And it applies to many fandoms, Including One Piece. Cmon dont deny it! 😉

      EDIT: For the link allergic

      I like things, and some of those things are problematic. I like Lord of the Rings even though it’s pretty fucked up with regard to women and race (any narrative that says “this whole race is evil” is fucked up, okay). I like A Song of Ice and Fire even though its portrayal of people of colour is problematic, and often I find that its in-text condemnation of patriarchy isn’t obvious enough to justify the sexism displayed. I like the movie Scott Pilgrim vs The World even though it is racist in its portrayal of Matthew Patel, panders to stereotypes in its portrayal of Wallace, and trivialises queer female sexuality in its portrayal of Ramona and Roxy’s relationship. For fuck’s sake, Ramona even says “It was a phase”! How much more cliche and offensive could this movie be? Oh wait, remember how Scott defeats Roxy, his only female adversary, by making her orgasm? Excuse me while I vomit…and then keep watching because I still like the rest of the movie.Liking problematic things doesn’t make you an asshole. In fact, you can like really problematic things and still be not only a good person, but a good social justice activist (TM)! After all, most texts have some problematic elements in them, because they’re produced by humans, who are well-known to be imperfect. But it can be surprisingly difficult to own up to the problematic things in the media you like, particularly when you feel strongly about it, as many fans do. We need to find a way to enjoy the media we like without hurting other people and marginalised groups. So with that in mind, here are my suggestions for things we should try our darnedest to do as self-confessed fans of problematic stuff.
      Firstly, acknowledge that the thing you like is problematic and do not attempt to make excuses for it. It is a unique irritation to encounter a person who point blank refuses to admit that something they like is problematic. Infuriatingly, people will often actually articulate some version of the argument “It can’t be problematic because I like it, and I’m nice”. Alternatively, some fans may find it tempting to argue “Well this media is a realistic portrayal of societies like X, Y, Z”. But when you say that sexism and racism and heterosexism and cissexism have to be in the narrative or the story won’t be realistic, what you are saying is that we humans literally cannot recognise ourselves without systemic prejudice, nor can we connect to characters who are not unrepentant bigots. Um, yikes. YIKES, you guys.
      And even if you think that’s true (which scares the hell out of me), I don’t see you arguing for an accurate portrayal of everything in your fiction all the time. For example, most people seem fine without accurate portrayal of what personal hygiene was really like in 1300 CE in their medieval fantasy media. (Newsflash: realistically, Robb Stark and Jon Snow rarely bathed or brushed their teeth or hair). In real life, people have to go to the bathroom. In movies and books, they don’t show that very much, because it’s boring and gross. Well, guess what: bigotry is also boring and gross. But everyone is just dying to keep that in the script.
      Especially do not ever suggest that people not take media “so seriously”, or argue that it’s “just” a tv show. The narratives that we surround ourselves with can subtly, subconsciously influence how we think about ourselves and others. That’s why creating imaginary fantasy and sci fi worlds that have more equal societies can be a powerful thing for marginalised people, who mainstream media rarely acknowledges as heroes. But even if you don’t think that media matters, there is still no reason to focus exclusively on unequal or problematic fictional worlds and narratives. If it doesn’t matter, why don’t YOU stop taking your media so seriously and stop fighting us on this? You with your constant demands for your narrow idea of “realism” (which by the way often sounds a lot like “show me naked skinny ciswomen, and gore”). If in your framework tv shows aren’t serious business, why does realism matter? Why can’t you accept that it would be totally cool to have AT LEAST ONE BIG MEDIEVAL FANTASY EPIC WHERE WOMEN AND POC WERE LIKE, EQUAL TO WHITE MEN AND STUFF. STOP TAKING IT SO SERIOUSLY.
      Secondly, do not gloss over the issues or derail conversations about the problematic elements. Okay, so you can admit that Dune is problematic. But wait, you’re not done! You need to be willing to engage with people about it! It’s not enough to be like “Ok, I admit that it’s problematic that the major villain is a fat homosexual rapist, but come on, let’s focus on the giant sandworms!”. Shutting people down, ignoring or giving minimal treatment to their concerns, and refusing to fully engage with their issues is a form of oppression. Implicitly, you’re giving the message that this person’s feelings are less important than your own. In fact, in this case you’re saying that their pain is less important than your enjoyment of a book, movie or tv show. So when people raise these concerns, listen respectfully and try to understand the views. Do not change the topic.
      Thirdly you must acknowledge other, even less favourable, interpretations of the media you like. Sometimes you still enjoy a movie or book because you read a certain, potentially problematic scene in a certain way – but others read it entirely differently, and found it more problematic. For example, consider the scene in Game of Thrones where Drogo rapes Dany (which he does not do in the books). One of my friends feels that it was portrayed like rape fetish porn, sexualising the act and Dany’s pain. But I feel that the scene focuses on Dany’s pain and tears in a manner that is not fetishising them (though even so the narrative is still totally fucked up because Dany and her rapist then go on to have a good, sexyfuntimes relationship…uh, no, HBO). I don’t agree with my friend’s interpretation but I recognise it as a totally valid reading of the scene.
      Also, as a fan of problematic media, you need to respect the fact that others may be so upset or angered by media you love that they don’t want to engage with it at all. In fact, one of my best friends won’t watch HBO’s Game of Thrones because of the racism and misogyny. That’s a completely legitimate and valid response to that tv show, and me trying to convince her to give it another shot would be disrespectful and hurtful. If you badger others to see what you see in something when they are telling you it’s not enjoyable for them, you’re being an entitled jerk. You’re showing yourself to be willing to hurt a real person over a television show. That really is a sign you’re taking things too seriously.
      As fans, sometimes we need to remember that the things we like don’t define our worth as people. So there’s no need to defend them from every single criticism or pretend they are perfect. Really loving something means seeing it as it really is, not as you wish it were. You can still be a good fan while acknowledging the problematic elements of the things you love. In fact, that’s the only way to be a good fan of problematic things.

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      • Monkey King
        Monkey King
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        I too like to spend my energies writing about and caring a ton about miscellanous checklist things to get outraged about in stupid cartoons and movies rather than real life.

        –- Update From New Post Merge ---

        Also "people of color" is only spoken by people who don't know any color if you know what I'm sayin'.

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        • Chrissie
          Chrissie
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          Bahahahahahahaha~ XD

          My 3DS Friend Code: 1091 - 8457 - 8212

          ~Goronyanya~

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          • Monkey King
            Monkey King
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            its a really sterile labroatory jargon bullshit phrase and it sucks a huge dick and im really judgemental of people who use it being also sterile labrotaroy people whose approach to shit is "OI WITH THE RACISM AND THE SEXISM AND THE OTHER THING FLAVEN" and then they get off their computer blog/college class and clutch their wallet when a black guy gets on the bus

            –- Update From New Post Merge ---

            which is exaclt what the blog is ewwwwwwww ewww ewwww

            --- Update From New Post Merge ---

            Black guy, bllllaaack guyyyyyy
            that is how people talk and no one on any side cares, that is real liffffeeee

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            • Y
              Yonkou255
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              …............Um...okay.

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              • Bobjr
                Bobjr
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                So basically I can say I like something if I say it's fucked up?

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                • Y
                  Yonkou255
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                  Well, you cant say I LIKE KODOMO NO JIKAN BECAUSE ITS PEDOPHILIC! witouth getting the shit punched out of you, but yeah.

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                  • MasterKingJC
                    MasterKingJC
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                    I thought the blog post itself was "problematic".

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                    • W
                      Warp Predator @Yonkou255
                      @Yonkou255 last edited by
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                      So villains can't be complete monsters, medieval fantasy can't be more realistic than an episode of MLP, and all who likes Game of Thrones should confess and admit that they all are into rape porn. No really.:ninja:

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                      • Hiroy
                        Hiroy
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                        This is the most useless "how to" ever.

                        –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                        Okay. This is the most useless thing ever.

                        zachri Hiroy 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • zachri
                          zachri @Hiroy
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                          @Hiroy:

                          This is the most useless "how to" ever.

                          –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                          Okay. This is the most useless thing ever.

                          I think he might have been drunk to be honest.
                          I like a lot of 'problematic' things…
                          srsls.

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                          • Cymelion
                            Cymelion
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                            Pell survived because he is a Falcon - Stop using him as a bad example.

                            The Peregrine Falcon reaches faster speeds than any other animal on the planet when performing the stoop,which involves soaring to a great height and then diving steeply at speeds of over 320 km/h (200 mph)

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                            • Gliblord
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                              I wonder when it was the term "colored people" phased out

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                              • wolfwood
                                wolfwood
                                Warlord Mod
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                                I cracked up before i even got past the lord of the rings bit

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                                • Mr M
                                  Mr M @zachri
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                                  @zachri:

                                  I think he might have been drunk to be honest.
                                  I like a lot of 'problematic' things…
                                  srsls.

                                  It's a she and she is replying to a lot of people…

                                  why oh why

                                  Originally Posted by Kitsune Inferno

                                  You are a treasure.

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                                  • zachri
                                    zachri @Mr M
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                                    @metteminne:

                                    It's a she and she is replying to a lot of people…

                                    why oh why

                                    Oh well.

                                    People made the same mistake about me so there.

                                    Also, I just had a problematic thought which my anxiety is hammering away in case it may offend…

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                                    • Monkey King
                                      Monkey King @Gliblord
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                                      @Gliblord:

                                      I wonder when it was the term "colored people" phased out

                                      No see that's evil and horrible and structo-racist-ethnorape.

                                      But "People of Color" is correct and permissable and will get you through the pearly gates of the Ivory Tower.

                                      It's really awesome that so much of the "important thinking" regarding social issues comes down to a bunch of cryptic academic bullshit that no normal person ever encounters or hears about, and that most of it is just a lot of semantics world war one trench crap that fights for years over the same muddy meaningless field.

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                                      • GypsyCarts
                                        GypsyCarts
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                                        This post is really fucking…useless.

                                        "Trust him with me…I WANT TO WRONG JIGGLE."

                                        Crack Navigator for the Fandom Pirates

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                                        • Pochipochi
                                          Pochipochi
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                                          core ideas about marginalization of minorities (or poor trends of depicting them) and women are all apt and cool, it's just not that this blog post is written very well.

                                          although admittedly a lot of the responses in this thread seem to be some sort of knee-jerk reactions of OH EXTREMISM HEHEHE, but how many of you can really look over this blog post and pick apart what you think are things that are stupid, or things that are worth thinking about (because while not unique and more of just repeating well-known social problems, it still mentions things that are legit) and how many of you recognize what you sincerely don't like about it. Just wondering.

                                          because it might lead to more interesting discussions

                                          or me punching you in the face

                                          also zephos brings up good implicit points about armchair activism as an example, or this silly trend of tumblr activism that gets real issues muddled with hilarity.

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                                          • Gliblord
                                            Gliblord @Monkey King
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                                            @Monkey:

                                            No see that's evil and horrible and structo-racist-ethnorape.

                                            But "People of Color" is correct and permissable and will get you through the pearly gates of the Ivory Tower.

                                            It's really awesome that so much of the "important thinking" regarding social issues comes down to a bunch of cryptic academic bullshit that no normal person ever encounters or hears about, and that most of it is just a lot of semantics world war one trench crap that fights for years over the same muddy meaningless field.

                                            Not a huge fan of academia, I take it

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                                            • firecrouch
                                              firecrouch
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                                              I guess now whenever I talk to my buddies about a movie we all watched we'll talk about how they can be "problematic"

                                              Blog last updated 01/31/2013:

                                              [http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/

                                              Nintendo Network ID: firekrouch](http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/)

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                                              • Gliblord
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                                                I guess this means I have to scrap my novel whose protagonist is a soulless ginger person of color who licks plantation owners' boots as a hobby

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                                                • zachri
                                                  zachri @Gliblord
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                                                  @Gliblord:

                                                  I guess this means I have to scrap my novel whose protagonist is a soulless ginger person of color who licks plantation owners' boots as a hobby

                                                  I… what?

                                                  If that's the case then I must stop drawing these 'experimental' expansion pictures < u >;;
                                                  chuffdat.

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                                                  • Pochipochi
                                                    Pochipochi @firecrouch
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                                                    @firecrouch:

                                                    I guess now whenever I talk to my buddies about a movie we all watched we'll talk about how they can be "problematic"

                                                    I do that.

                                                    Any time I see an LGBT character portrayed I usually analyze and talk about what I disliked or liked about it, because they're still pretty much a minority in any media.

                                                    You can still be great media without passing, say, the Bechdel test (which is entirely about analyzing trends in female characters), like Blade Runner is an amazing movie. And it's not problematic just because it has no good female characters and etc. I would say that trend for sure is problematic and sucks, but when discussing individual movies I consider problematic aspects more negative characterizations that adhere to strong stereotypes, or some majority viewpoint that ends up dehumanizing.

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                                                    • Kitsune Inferno
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                                                      My problem with this post is that it's pretty much common sense to begin with. It implies the notion that people are incapable of thinking critically about the things we like in the first place. And I'd still like to think that even the blindest fanboys/girls are capable of looking at the things they like critically as well, if only on an internal level.

                                                      It's like writing a How To on dressing yourself.

                                                      [[Follow me on Twitch!]](http://twitch.tv/kitsuneinferno/)

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                                                      • Gliblord
                                                        Gliblord @zachri
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                                                        @zachri:

                                                        I… what?

                                                        If that's the case then I must stop drawing these 'experimental' expansion pictures < u >;;
                                                        chuffdat.

                                                        It was a surefire bestseller too

                                                        Damn problems

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                                                        • D
                                                          DarkFalcon
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                                                          being problematic is a quality of work. Media without any problems would be boring. Sometimes it goes to far, and some media have such stupid approach to problems turn into bull crap. Otherwise who would want to who would ever want to read a book or watch the show without any sort of conflict or even any vision of society in it, and such things naturally generate problems. We pretty much read things for the problems not despite them.

                                                          The following is my critic towards some arguments presented by the author of the blog (I just feel like writing it, so why not, I don't care if anyone reads this)
                                                          Also if the person writing this blog was more familiar with Tolkien, would know the problem was not race being evil by itself, but race being corrupted by Evil (by tortures and taking everything from them and then breeding them in order to build an army) if the baby was taken from that race and raised with love would probably grow up to be decent enough person, though it's never stated in the books. Granted professor Tolkien wasn't too good with writing women, but I wouldn't say he anted to demean women or anything, it's only that this writing reflects social relations of his times.

                                                          And seriously main villain being fat, homosexual rapist is the greatest debatable aspect of the Dune? I get it he gives bad image of the fat people! Or would he be any better if he was heterosexual rapist? Or is it that bad that he does bad stuff like rapes, while being main bad guy? Well in a book, where nearly everyone one is manipulative and possibly traitorous bastard with Machiavellian approach to politics and little to no regard of human live or religious fundamentalist (or becomes one, or dies early on) it only leaves rape to identify who is the worst of them all.
                                                          And her I thought The Dune was controversial because it shows manipulative and quite evil Messiah religion, build around drugs and drug distribution on galactic scale. Silly me. In fact I've found many things in the Dune more disturbing than Lord Harkonnen being young boy rapist, like Axlotl tanks being in fact Teilax women or "good guys" starting Jihad.

                                                          "I'm a bad guy! I don't save the day, I don't fly off to the sunset and I don't get the girl! I'm going home." - MegaMind

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                                                          • Monkey King
                                                            Monkey King @Gliblord
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                                                            @Gliblord:

                                                            Not a huge fan of academia, I take it

                                                            I'm not a huge fan of detached useless masturbation that doesn't engage with realistic pragmatism and actual people.

                                                            Wire Season 4, helping the kids in the classroom just leads to an academic article and shit in front of some audience of eggheads. And the former cop guy just walks out because nothings actually happened? That's me walking out.

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                                                            • Pochipochi
                                                              Pochipochi @Kitsune Inferno
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                                                              @DarkFalcon:

                                                              being problematic is a quality of work. Media without any problems would be boring. Sometimes it goes to far, and some media have such stupid approach to problems turn into bull crap. Otherwise who would want to who would ever want to read a book or watch the show without any sort of conflict or even any vision of society in it, and such things naturally generate problems. We pretty much read things for the problems not despite them.

                                                              I think you're not recognizing what the topic was about, because the original post was not a diatribe against the narrative concept of conflict.

                                                              If you're saying we read things to see sexist or offensive characterizations then you're stupid?

                                                              –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                              @Kitsune:

                                                              My problem with this post is that it's pretty much common sense to begin with. It implies the notion that people are incapable of thinking critically about the things we like in the first place. And I'd still like to think that even the blindest fanboys/girls are capable of looking at the things they like critically as well, if only on an internal level.

                                                              It's like writing a How To on dressing yourself.

                                                              It's a circlejerk effectively is my issue, especially to its target audience who probably talk about the author's stuff verbatim all day on tumblr

                                                              –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                              @Monkey:

                                                              I'm not a huge fan of detached useless masturbation that doesn't engage with realistic pragmatism and actual people.

                                                              Reblog reblog reblog reblog

                                                              tumblr tumblr tumblr tumblr

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                                                              • Kitsune Inferno
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                                                                It's okay if I hate the avengers because I also don't like that Jason Momoa is having sex with people who are not me.

                                                                Now I don't feel so bad.

                                                                [[Follow me on Twitch!]](http://twitch.tv/kitsuneinferno/)

                                                                [[Concerto di Ali: The Battle of Solocima]](showthread.php?t=33896 "Arlong Park Forums - Thread 33896") - [[Spirit Wolf]](showthread.php?t=33362 "Arlong Park Forums - Thread 33362")

                                                                [[D.U.R.I.A.N.]](showthread.php?t=32416 "Arlong Park Forums - Thread 32416") - [[Short and Sweet Writing]](showthread.php?t=30536 "Arlong Park Forums - Thread 30536")

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                                                                • Gliblord
                                                                  Gliblord @Monkey King
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                                                                  @Monkey:

                                                                  I'm not a huge fan of detached useless masturbation that doesn't engage with realistic pragmatism and actual people.

                                                                  Wire Season 4, helping the kids in the classroom just leads to an academic article and shit in front of some audience of eggheads. And the former cop guy just walks out because nothings actually happened? That's me walking out.

                                                                  Couldn't agree more. Of course, that makes me part of the problem, since I ain't doing shit for needy people except talk about it

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                                                                  • Hiroy
                                                                    Hiroy @Hiroy
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                                                                    @Hiroy:

                                                                    This is the most useless "how to" ever.

                                                                    –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                    Okay. This is the most useless thing ever.

                                                                    I agree.

                                                                    [/topicrelavance]

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                                                                    • zachri
                                                                      zachri @Hiroy
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                                                                      @Hiroy:

                                                                      I agree.

                                                                      [/topicrelavance]

                                                                      You just agreed with yourself.
                                                                      [/derp]

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                                                                      • Gliblord
                                                                        Gliblord @Monkey King
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                                                                        @Monkey:

                                                                        I'm not a huge fan of detached useless masturbation that doesn't engage with realistic pragmatism and actual people.

                                                                        Wire Season 4, helping the kids in the classroom just leads to an academic article and shit in front of some audience of eggheads. And the former cop guy just walks out because nothings actually happened? That's me walking out.

                                                                        Devil's advocate, that paper might just find its way into the hands of an academic who might just consult some important policymakers legislating on the issue, nay?

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                                                                        • Hiroy
                                                                          Hiroy @zachri
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                                                                          @zachri:

                                                                          You just agreed with yourself.
                                                                          [/derp]

                                                                          So far it's the only guy I would like to talk to.
                                                                          Because well.
                                                                          If qoute I someone else, that would be implying I'd actually want to discuss something in this shitty topic.
                                                                          "Something"
                                                                          Funny… there's isn't even a thing to discuss. Let alone "some".

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                                                                          • Monkey King
                                                                            Monkey King @Gliblord
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                                                                            @Gliblord:

                                                                            Devil's advocate, that paper might just find its way into the hands of an academic who might just consult some important policymakers legislating on the issue, nay?

                                                                            It's running against other legislation and bullshit, that insular academic circles have ended up becoming adversaries of due to their own lack on comprehension of compromise and so forth.

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                                                                            • D
                                                                              DarkFalcon @Pochipochi
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                                                                              @The:

                                                                              I think you're not recognizing what the topic was about, because the original post was not a diatribe against the narrative concept of conflict.

                                                                              No, I just wanted to point out that works of fiction without problematic aspects is impossible, because not only because it is created by humans, who are predominately flawed, but also because the problems are what enables authors to create meaningful plot. Also depending on cultural context and sensitivity of the reader everybody would identify differently points in plot, where authors are offensive and and the point where they want to deal with problems present with society (in some cases it's easy in other is not).

                                                                              When I visited this thread I thought it would be about how to be a fan of media, which promotes socially unpopular ideas. But the original post wasn't about it. It was about some works having some unfortunate implications, due to the fact that authors are being humans raised in certain social context. I that case each and every work is problematic, thus being problematic can't be a criteria that differs some works from the others.
                                                                              Of course it brings some important matters like how we should discuss problematic issues and not running away from them and accept other peoples opinion, but that just holds true to any dispute.

                                                                              @The:

                                                                              If you're saying we read things to see sexist or offensive characterizations then you're stupid?

                                                                              No, I meant, we read things to see problematic situations, to see how they are shown, what the author thinks about the problems, how the characters deal with full of problems reality, to see deeper, or simply to realize things that we are not seeing in or mundane life, as they are not visible, despite being present in our lives, and we need world of fiction to highlight them.
                                                                              Please, don't call me stupid.

                                                                              "I'm a bad guy! I don't save the day, I don't fly off to the sunset and I don't get the girl! I'm going home." - MegaMind

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                                                                              • zachri
                                                                                zachri @Hiroy
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                                                                                @Hiroy:

                                                                                So far it's the only guy I would like to talk to.
                                                                                Because well.
                                                                                If qoute I someone else, that would be implying I'd actually want to discuss something in this shitty topic.
                                                                                "Something"
                                                                                Funny… there's isn't even a thing to discuss. Let alone "some".

                                                                                Well you quoted me.
                                                                                And you're talking to me.
                                                                                So let's talk and shit.
                                                                                Chuff the discussions.
                                                                                Cause y'know.
                                                                                Too problematic.
                                                                                [/derp]

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                                                                                • TheCrystalShip
                                                                                  TheCrystalShip @firecrouch
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                                                                                  @firecrouch:

                                                                                  I guess now whenever I talk to my buddies about a movie we all watched we'll talk about how they can be "problematic"

                                                                                  I find it disturbing that anyone can watch movies WITHOUT doing this… Every time I watch or read a piece of fiction (including the news), I laugh with my friends about how biased and oppressive it was. And occasionally (most of the time), we get really pissed off.

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                                                                                  • Pochipochi
                                                                                    Pochipochi @DarkFalcon
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                                                                                    @DarkFalcon:

                                                                                    Please, don't call me stupid.

                                                                                    My apologies. It's negative and aggressive. Being rude is not good for anything and it's self-satisfactorily only, so I am sorry.

                                                                                    Uhhh this post would get exceedingly long and boring if I tried pulling out all stops and I already think I wrote too much, so i'm trying to be simple here and I'm sorry Hiroy my post fingers are itching and I wanna talk about this. And DarkFalcon I kind of go in and out directly talking to you so my bad not all of this may be about your posts.

                                                                                    No, I just wanted to point out that works of fiction without problematic aspects is impossible, because not only because it is created by humans, who are predominately flawed, but also because the problems are what enables authors to create meaningful plot. Also depending on cultural context and sensitivity of the reader everybody would identify differently points in plot, where authors are offensive and and the point where they want to deal with problems present with society (in some cases it's easy in other is not).

                                                                                    Allow me to be more clear with what I was saying. The sort of problems and conflicts you're discussing are… actually perhaps more related than I initially was being disparaging in regards to, but still not entirely related. To elaborate on what I think you're talking about I think, there is a good example in the Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones series in which a lot of the female cast lives in a patriarchal society that is feudal and disgusting and they are the way they are via institutions of an archaic culture. There is rape and sexism. Some characters do work with it the best they can and that can be considered a driving characterization for people like Brienne, who is a "manly woman" and how she deals with the world around her that basically hates her.

                                                                                    But the uh... intention of the author is sort of elsewhere. I think her heart is in the right place And I'll try to elaborate without coming off as a devil's advocate because I don't care about defending her post haha. I'll sort of dilute the idea she's talking about (hers is sort of a few levels above it?) to something we can all nod at.

                                                                                    The sort of problems have nothing to do with narrative, nor problems that drive it or are focused on. If a character handled and deals with sexism, that's something, but if, say, you have an all-male cast and the only character there is a female who is defined primarily by her relation to a man, that's an issue that has been a trend for eons. It's very much a male gaze and this is, at its most fundamental level, something anyone agrees is a problem because women… like characters they can relate to. There's any kind of male character in every kind of fiction, but to this day good female characters still work off of exceptions.

                                                                                    Like, take a program like the Big Bang Theory. Its premise is based on so many stereotypes. The only non-white character is a foreign Indian man who gets kama sutra jokes thrown at him, the show starts with none of the core cast (who are all "nerds who are losers!") being able to talk to women as if it's some inherent cause and effect, the "girl of the show" (supposedly they added more later) is just this walking cliche of blonde girl who is only defined as being stupid and hot... This is a really popular comedy program too and a lot of its character material is derived from a really trite, tried and true formula that is centered around gender norms that are pretty much full of shit (and this is only talking purely on the "men and women different dohohoho" humor). And this sort of thing is really common in all kinds of media and when you spend every day surrounded by this kind of stuff, it is offensive.

                                                                                    No, I meant, we read things to see problematic situations, to see how they are shown, what the author thinks about the problems, how the characters deal with full of problems reality, to see deeper, or simply to realize things that we are not seeing in or mundane life, as they are not visible, despite being present in our lives, and we need world of fiction to highlight them.

                                                                                    I just don't see what you're talking about here in something like the Big Bang Theory, because the Big Bang Theory never acknowledges anything it's purporting is a problem and it always plays it exclusively safe from a majority perspective of capitalizing on hitting tons of marks. More people will laugh and go "haha these nerdy guys are bad with girls because girls are a different species", even if it's pandering to stereotypes, more than trying to like… Have good characters. It's just throwaway humor and it appeals to more people because it's using established institutions that people may not even think of as an issue because it won't relate to them. Chuck Lorre actually exclusively specializes in making stuff like this. The women thing especially is an easy one to say "yes, this is a problem", but...

                                                                                    But the author of the opening post is also talking about hitting like all bases at once and the problem at hand here gets a bit more analytical when you throw in things like Firefly, which is a supposedly Chinese dominated space culture that has no Asian characters, or when you start looking for every sort of race, sex, gender issue and you'll just get caught up in how insanely dominated the airwaves are with non-ideal circumstances aaaand this is when we get into the thing Zephos is talking about where it's more like people spending all day on tumblr armchairing this shit.

                                                                                    My big thing is that things can be good without adhering to this checklist thing of representing minorities (like I said Blade Runner is a great example) and trends themselves are the problems more specifically. But when minorities who are gravely overlooked do get represented and in ways that don't reflect, like, a heterosexual male gaze, or something, is great. And I think that sort of positive "solution" is more important than spending a ton of time on "problems", as far as being a viewer who amounts to nothing is concerned. Not that I'm as critical of it as Zephos is.

                                                                                    I think it's still important to be aware. And being aware is all these tumblr people can really do, because they sure as hell aren't really fixing anything I don't think? Also some of them can get really over the top and misrepresent what things are actually harmful and what aren't. But I sincerely do think their hearts are in the right place and they aren't entirely wrong with what they're being up in arms about.

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                                                                                    • firecrouch
                                                                                      firecrouch @TheCrystalShip
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                                                                                      @TheCrystalShip:

                                                                                      I find it disturbing that anyone can watch movies WITHOUT doing this… Every time I watch or read a piece of fiction (including the news), I laugh with my friends about how biased and oppressive it was. And occasionally (most of the time), we get really pissed off.

                                                                                      Don't misunderstand, there's always fiction out there that is going to have something ethically or morally wrong with it. It's just that I hardly get offended by any fiction, or care to discuss any that happens to do so. If it's outright problematic for the sake of being so for example it's just a bad piece of fiction.

                                                                                      Blog last updated 01/31/2013:

                                                                                      [http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/

                                                                                      Nintendo Network ID: firekrouch](http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/)

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                                                                                      • Kylor
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                                                                                        There's a term for a story that is completely inoffensive, doesn't challenge anything, and doesn't acknowledge the problems and issues with the setting it takes place in.

                                                                                        It's called "a boring and pointless story that doesn't say anything of value."

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                                                                                        • TheCrystalShip
                                                                                          TheCrystalShip @Kylor
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                                                                                          @Kylor:

                                                                                          There's a term for a story that is completely inoffensive, doesn't challenge anything, and doesn't acknowledge the problems and issues with the setting it takes place in.

                                                                                          It's called "a boring and pointless story that doesn't say anything of value."

                                                                                          I don't think we're talking about how systemic oppression is approached WITHIN a story.
                                                                                          We're talking about how systemic oppression affects how the author wrote their story.

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                                                                                            DarkFalcon
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                                                                                            Every work of fiction have multiple levels of reading them. There is a level of plot, meta-plot, culture reference, philosophical level, deep level on which authors non-conscious believes and views on the world are revealed. All those can be analyzed and interpreted even if they not visible on the first sight. But someone, who is interested enough can do, for even most shallow and silly work.

                                                                                            I remember when, during convention, I happened to come in it the room during the lecture about High School of the Dead, since I was waiting for next lecture in the same room I've decide to stay, even thought I've quite watching the series after first episode. I was shocked, the guy who was leading the lecture was analyzing the series from point of view of psychological portrayals of the characters engaging also some philosophical questions. I was shocked didn't expect all those interesting things to be present in anime about high school students killing Zombies. Still has to watch the show to verify this, but at least it's on my to do list.

                                                                                            Majority of people probably watch High school of the Dead for boobs and violence, that doesn't mean it's all the anime is about. Can't say much for Big Bang theory - I don't watch it, but also most of time people probably watch it for stereotypes they can recognize and laugh at, relatively cultural and science references, but if you start ask questions you may found another layer of this show. Like you can apply some Marxist paradigm and try to analyze how and why the show is used to mystified actual social structure.

                                                                                            "I'm a bad guy! I don't save the day, I don't fly off to the sunset and I don't get the girl! I'm going home." - MegaMind

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                                                                                            • TheCrystalShip
                                                                                              TheCrystalShip @DarkFalcon
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                                                                                              @DarkFalcon:

                                                                                              Majority of people probably watch High school of the Dead for boobs and violence, that doesn't mean it's all the anime is about. Can't say much for Big Bang theory - I don't watch it, but also most of time people probably watch it for stereotypes they can recognize and laugh at, relatively cultural and science references, but if you start ask questions you may found another layer of this show. Like you can apply some Marxist paradigm and try to analyze how and why the show is used to mystified actual social structure.

                                                                                              It's not worth it to watch an offensive show, though. Unless you want to show your friend that it's offensive.
                                                                                              I was already miffed by the awful "Penny" character, and the moment somebody told a transphobic joke, I was out.

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                                                                                              • Monkey King
                                                                                                Monkey King @TheCrystalShip
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                                                                                                @TheCrystalShip:

                                                                                                It's not worth it to watch an offensive show, though. Unless you want to show your friend that it's offensive.
                                                                                                I was already miffed by the awful "Penny" character, and the moment somebody told a transphobic joke, I was out.

                                                                                                Who exactly are you so worried about knowing if you liked a show that was stupid about something in some way.

                                                                                                All I'm seeing from this sort of shit is like some kind of holier than thou beauty pageant among cliques of people who like getting angry about shit.

                                                                                                OH MAN IM ABOVE BIG BANG THEORY is not the same thing as "hey lets look at how come this thing keeps coming up that effects how people might think"

                                                                                                –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                                I mean what do you want, a cookie?

                                                                                                --- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                                I DO NOT PLAY LEGEND OF ZELDA, IT REINFORCES MONARCHY AND HELPLESS FEMALE GENDER ROLES AND MOBLINS ARE BLACK PEOPLE

                                                                                                and you just clown up something that shouldn't be any more complicated than "yo other m is hella sexist"

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                                                                                                • TheCrystalShip
                                                                                                  TheCrystalShip @Monkey King
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                                                                                                  @Monkey:

                                                                                                  Who exactly are you so worried about knowing if you liked a show that was stupid about something in some way.

                                                                                                  All I'm seeing from this sort of shit is like some kind of holier than thou beauty pageant among cliques of people who like getting angry about shit.

                                                                                                  OH MAN IM ABOVE BIG BANG THEORY is not the same thing as "hey lets look at how come this thing keeps coming up that effects how people might think"

                                                                                                  –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                                  I mean what do you want, a cookie?

                                                                                                  What the hell is wrong with you?
                                                                                                  Did it ever occur to you that I DON'T like the damn show BECAUSE it's offensive to me personally?

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                                                                                                  • zachri
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                                                                                                    Allow me to simplify this thread then jump out before you guys swarm at me:

                                                                                                    How to be a fan of problematic things

                                                                                                    1. You: Find something 'problematic'
                                                                                                    2. Mind: Like it

                                                                                                    Simples.

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                                                                                                    • Monkey King
                                                                                                      Monkey King @TheCrystalShip
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                                                                                                      @TheCrystalShip:

                                                                                                      What the hell is wrong with you?
                                                                                                      Did it ever occur to you that I DON'T like the damn show BECAUSE it's offensive to me personally?

                                                                                                      As what lol, come on. A nerd? A girl? An Indian person? Jewish? A nerd girl? A Jewish nerd?

                                                                                                      I'm not speaking for me here either, someone else I know watches it.

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                                                                                                        DarkFalcon @TheCrystalShip
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                                                                                                        @TheCrystalShip:

                                                                                                        I find it disturbing that anyone can watch movies WITHOUT doing this… Every time I watch or read a piece of fiction (including the news), I laugh with my friends about how biased and oppressive it was. And occasionally (most of the time), we get really pissed off.

                                                                                                        Mind overload. Well you can't carefully analyzed just everything, it'll make your mind explode (you are not even able to register all the things), while it is still recommended to stop and critically think about what you are watching or had watched at least once in a while. Additionally many people don't like to think too much, because if the show/book is relatively easy in reception, thinking about it may spoil the fun one gets from just watching basic level. And many people are just lazy.

                                                                                                        @TheCrystalShip:

                                                                                                        I don't think we're talking about how systemic oppression is approached WITHIN a story.
                                                                                                        We're talking about how systemic oppression affects how the author wrote their story.

                                                                                                        Later affects the former, and to some extent former affects the later. We are not able to fully discuss one without the other. Moreover we are judging about the later vastly basing on the former.

                                                                                                        @TheCrystalShip:

                                                                                                        It's not worth it to watch an offensive show, though. Unless you want to show your friend that it's offensive.
                                                                                                        I was already miffed by the awful "Penny" character, and the moment somebody told a transphobic joke, I was out.

                                                                                                        can't defend show I didn't watch. But some of my friends, whose opinion I quite value, like this show. Those girls find something in this show worth seeing.
                                                                                                        The fact, that something is offensive doesn't mean it's not worth seeing or reading, though. Like Aristotle views on women and slaves are offensive (and frankly speaking stupid), the Bible is highly offensive, so is the Trilogy be H. Sienkiewicz, every single book about Jakub Wędrowycz is made of offensiveness, and I still find those things worth reading, for all kind of different qualities those work posses aside from being offensive.

                                                                                                        "I'm a bad guy! I don't save the day, I don't fly off to the sunset and I don't get the girl! I'm going home." - MegaMind

                                                                                                        Pochipochi TheCrystalShip 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0

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